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27:25And so it's kind of magic. It's like a miracle. And all three of those performers are so good. Incredible. I mean, everyone on the show is so good. Like, it's a really good group. But like, let me shout out Alana Arenas. Oh, my God. Who like people did. I mean, I literally was like, I just want people to meet Alana Arenas. Absolutely. She plays Morgan in the show and she has some of the most incredible scenes. We're dying. She really. She's a genius. You gave her some good material to work with. I mean, she's amazing, but... She does it. She does it. I mean, I feel like I was... You know, it feels like I'm tailoring, honestly.

27:55I'm saying that because I'm in Vogue. I know what tailoring is. Do I? But the idea that, like, I could write something to someone's strengths and really try to pull out their talents. And she was just so obvious because her powers are, like, magic. Like, what she does with words and the way that she can just, like, play the rhythm of a scene. And by the way, she does a different performance every night. Oh, really? Yeah, like, it's always the same character, but she'll place things in different places or she'll, like, have an emotional break in a different moment. and it'll like ripple through the whole play and it'll force the other actors to make different choices and that's like, nah, that takes like incredible technique and talent to pull that off.

28:29She's incredible. Makes it so alive. Yeah, exactly. That's what you want, right? You want it to be alive, yeah. Yeah. I mean, one sort of theme of the show certainly is kind of, there's an interesting kind of like intergenerational kind of dynamic happening where you have this sort of Potter-familius, Sonny Jasper played by Harry Lennox who is kind of thinking about his legacy and kind of thinking about the sort of sacrifices that he's made in his life for his family and to kind of like, you know, for the sake of racial equity, kind of think, he's quite an important man and kind of thinking about sort of what his life's purpose has been.

29:04And then you have his sons who are part of, of course, like the other generation, kind of thinking about where they fit into that, thinking about kind of what impact they can make. And I wonder where that kind of idea came from, like what sort of was inspiring that sort of concept for you? Well, two things. I mean, one that's less, well, there's a personal one and then there's like the artistic one, which is I wanted to write a play about a Black dynastic family, which really doesn't exist in this culture. Like we don't have like Rockefeller. We don't have a name that we associate with like generations of influence, wealth, and power.

29:40And we do kind of have them, but the story's kind of often the same shape, which is within one generation, that all that kind of cultural capital is squandered somehow. And I wanted to sort of see if I could make drama out of that. And I also had this moment with, I mean, my parents were both just in some weird way lucky to have been born when they were born because it was in that window of like LBJ Diversity Act. So they were incredibly intelligent people, but like schools opened up and education opened up in a way. Like my mother's one of the first black women who graduated from Harvard Law School.

30:11You know, my dad was like a randomly, literally became a dentist because he was walking down the streets of Baltimore. and a guy in a doorway of a dental school said, hey, you, come over here. And not joking, this is the story of how my dad became a dentist for 40 years. Wow. Anyway, so, but I also had this moment where I was like, are my parents traumatized by history? You know, they both grew up during segregation. They were both from the South, grew up in the South. And I get to grow up in this moment where I have all this amazing language around, like, fragility. And, like, you know, and they didn't have that.

30:44They just lived their lives. And I'm like, how much of that trauma expressed itself in their kind of, you know, there's something very experimental about the lives they had to live because no one had done that before. and I wanted to kind of put that on stage somehow. Like think about like how a person could be this extraordinary warrior for social justice and actually in some ways in his lifetime have seen the fruits of his labors play out in society and yet domestically there's like a cost to that that no one registers or talks about or explores and there must be some emotional story there about how the kids can or can't engage that legacy you know what it let them have or not have I don't know so that stuff all kind of was swimming around your mom as you said was a lawyer and a business woman is there any of her in Claudine?

31:36well yes Claudine's a lawyer but I was just talking about this with someone in the car because she's seeing the show on Saturday and you know I think like the worst thing that could ever happen is your child becomes a writer like I remember early on like in my early plays I were just like crazy and had nothing to do with anything. My mom said she would, like, go to them. She had to see them twice because the first time she'd be, like, frozen in her seat, like, waiting to be embarrassed. Yeah, like, waiting for, like, the family secrets to be spilled. And, like, I'm like, sorry. In my play about, like, minstrelsy or whatever, she's, like, waiting for me to, like, talk about her mom.

32:09But, um... And then she'd relax and be able to see the show, you know? So I'm kind of, like, waiting to see what she sees in this one. But... That's funny. The answer's kind of no. Like, my mother was actually quite... I think Claudine is a conservative-leaning woman in the sense that she's, like, religious. She is—her social form of organization is the church. You know, my mother was, like, very radical. She was a single mom. You know, she was an entrepreneur. She kind of, like, did whatever she wanted to do. And she definitely had no interest in sort of subscribing to patriarchal systems or, like, things that kind of emphasize that.

32:49Like, she really taught me what feminism was when I was truly a toddler. And so the answer is no. And yet, like, there is something about having parents who are lawyers. And, like, I have a lot of friends whose parents are lawyers, especially your mom. Like, if you have a mom that's a lawyer, it's a very specific mom energy. And, yeah, so in some ways, yes, but also mostly no. Because Claudine is, like, low-key terrifying, especially toward the end. Yeah, and my mom's not terrifying in that way. But she definitely is, like, knows the law. you know and she can talk you knows how to use it yeah she just knows how to use language in a way that lawyers know it's powerful it's powerful yeah it's really powerful lawyers can they can litigate at home yes and you I think you raise really verbal kids too yeah oh that's interesting yeah you're always just talked out of everything you want in your life with your mom like tricking you into thinking that what you want is not what you want yeah this is not therapy podcast right this is definitely a vote podcast fashion my mom likes fashion That's not true.

33:49I had an aha moment after when I was reading about the play that many Chicagoans identified Jesse Jackson, Jesse Jackson Jr., which we don't have to address or not address. But I thought that was interesting. Didn't I just was like, oh, I think other people totally miss that. Like people don't really know that wouldn't know. Once I read it, I was like, oh, good call. But it didn't in the viewing. It did not occur to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of families being referenced. I think, for whatever reason, the Jacksons are, like, the most legible to people. Yeah. But it's definitely disappointing if you come in looking for, like, the story of the Jacksons, because it definitely takes a turn.

34:30It's just not O'Meara. Yeah, it's definitely not. I mean, it shouldn't have been a cabaret. But, you know, I think, yeah, in Chicago, that was super vivid. Yes. You know, and I really, and you had people coming, I had people coming up to me after the show being like, how did you know? And I'm like, I really don't. Beekeeper? Well, I also was like, guys, I just read a bunch of articles about a bunch of families, and whatever showed up, showed up in the show. But it's, you know, what a remarkable human he was. I don't know, it still is. Are there other namesake families? I don't want to be sued.

35:02So I'm going to be chill about that, and Nicolette will follow if I'm short an email. But, you know, Chicago, it should be said, is like a black political town. And like if you want to be in politics and black, you have to go to Chicago. I mean, that's the Obama story. What was interesting about Kamala is that she was a different iteration of that story because she was new money West Coast. She was mixed race, but she went to Howard and she was AKA. So like some of the signifiers were there, but some of them weren't. And, you know, but Chicago is like is that's it's Chicago and D.C. Yeah. You know, and I grew up in D.C.

35:39My family was like I call it like Congressional Black Caucus adjacent. sense. So, like, I have a lot of my mother for a while worked in politics. A lot of my, like, godbrothers and sisters growing up were from political families. So, you know, and of course, the Jacksons were at the center of that storm in some ways, especially from, like, the 70s, 80s, early 90s. Yeah. Given that, like, personal context for you around, like, those sorts of families in D.C. and sort of the similarities, I guess, between the kinds of, like, black families that you see in DC and in Chicago. Like, were you, in terms of, like, the set design, like, this kind of, like, amazing house that serves as the set for the show, like, were you kind of weighing in on what that should kind of look like?

36:21Like, how to kind of telegraph that kind of Black power wealth, like... How many props are written into the script? I mean, you know what's so funny about that is if you really do the research about these families, people love to describe their houses. Like, every profile is, like, you know, it's like... So it's easy to kind of get that data. But this is kind of where I have to give it up to Miss Felicia Rashad, who in her own way is an ascended. Oh, of course. And she had a lot to say because she was in these houses. She knows these people. She's, you know, and so she really chose those colors.

36:57She was like sourcing that art. She can tell you the story behind every choice so that she can tell you what each of those objects is saying about that family in a way that I was like, you must do what you want to do, Miss Rashad. That's amazing. We did all notice we were very impressed with the photos. Yes. Those are the best parts of the set. You mean the ones upstairs? Yeah. Yeah, because we were like, is this AI? We were like, guys, I'm not even going to tell you, but they're my favorite parts of the set and you kind of can't even see them clearly unless you're looking for them. But, and there's, by the way, when the understudy goes on, they all change.

37:27No way. Yes. Oh my God. That's incredible. That's incredible. That's such magic. No, I know, I know. It's so good. For those who, yeah, I don't want to spoil it, Lennox, who plays Solid Jasper, there's all these incredible, they seem AI-generated, but they're not. Yeah. Like staged, he's hanging out with Rosa Parks, a young version of him shaking him all, Kay's hand. It's so weird. I also love that, I remember there was a part in the play where Morgan refers the ugly statue. Yes! Well, that's specific. Of course, you mentioned Felicia Rashad, who's the amazing director of this production, and I know that in many ways she was kind of like a dream collaborator and kind of like a dream person to be attached to this.

38:11A dream for all of us. Oh my god. My commencement speaker. No kidding. When I interviewed her on the phone I was losing my mind but anyway. Can you tell us a bit about like what you've kind of learned working with her because I mean something that you talked to me about was how you know she has you know of course an amazing sort of background in the theater working with all these amazing artists and has like you know this kind of really incredible rare experience but yeah what of that has kind of like stuck with you in this process yeah i mean the thing about miss felicia we call her miss felicia yes i feel weird calling her anything other than somebody we call her miss felicia you know she's like a deeply deeply gracious person and i always call her a good witch like she has like good witch energy because she is she's just seen so much and met so many people that you can feel that she has designed she just knows how to be in the world in a different way and she's not a diva at all I never saw her raise her voice I never saw her like have a fit and you know she's very good at kind of getting to the emotional heart of a character like she's very she's such a great reader that you know I feel like sometimes when you're making a play you're like waiting for everyone to catch up to you because you're like yeah like look page 44 i was like her mom died like relax you know that's why she's so angry but no but she'll be like why is she eating a cucumber and she'll be like maybe she's eating cucumber because she's on a diet maybe she's on a diet she's mad at her husband like she's able to like zero in on detail and find the story in it and as a writer that inspires you because you want to hide story everywhere that's how you kind of get that texture hopefully of like richness and like fullness and these like illusions of people because she's giving actors the opportunity to like invest in their imaginations and like dive into the real, you know?

40:02She would talk all the time about this idea of like the life of the play. She wants to get into the life of the play. She wants to make, she wants to get into the texture of the reality for these people. And that's just like, I never heard a director say that before. Amazing. I want to know about the costumes in the play because I loved the Telfar sweatsuit. Yes, that's correct. I mean, Dede Aiete is like one of the, first of all, Dede. She is so busy. Yeah, because she's good. You guys, like, she was, like, nominated twice last year in the same category. Teddy A.E.T. is, like, one of the best costume designers out here.

40:34And she's so, and she works so much, but she's so rigorous. And she's so interested in, like, like this, like, what, similar to Miss Felicia, like, how costume signifies character choice. Like, the idea that always is that, like, this person woke up this morning and chose to put this on. Why did they choose this? Was it for comfort? Are they scared of something? Are they cold? you know and that all informs what actors are able to do you know I ask my child that every day right are you scared are you cold why are you wearing this again yeah so I mean Dana did such a great job and like it's funny if you like were there through the previews that jumpsuit changed like 15 times he looked like a mafioso for one of the shows we were like it's a no like you know it was really funny and she's also interested in color story so she was constantly at war with this very warm set that kind of like coppery color and she was like so mad because she's like, well, I can't just have everybody in red.

41:27You know, so she was so thoughtful and so detailed and really just like to the bitter end, it was like just changing, changing things. So she's the best. Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co-host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

42:11Quite a while ago, and so let us know if you don't agree with the statement anymore, you described theater as a safe space for all feelings, but especially ugly feelings. Yes, I still feel that way. Okay, what does that mean to you? And why is theater kind of like the place for it? Yeah. Well, a lot of people have to trust each other to make theater happen. Like you tend to show up in these like big rooms with like hundreds of chairs. And you don't really know those people. But you've all agreed to like sit down and be quiet for the most part, right? You've all agreed to face in the same direction.

42:42And you've all agreed hopefully to try to have the best experience together you can, right? And not be on your phone. Right. Totally. Totally. And like people don't go to the theater to have a bad time. No one spends that money or that time. Everyone actually, even if they're like the most critical, most bitter people you know, they still want the game to work on them. That's always it at the heart of it. So in the theater, I'm always like this is the safest space with all these other human beings to sit there and go like, am I angry about society? And like if I'm angry, like can I get through that anger?

43:11Is there another feeling beyond the anger? Because I think we fear the sort of bad feelings. You know, but actually the whole point is that we are constantly moving through feelings, right? We're always, it's always about the collection of things that we feel that actually matter as opposed to like that one moment you were jealous. Yeah. Right. I think the theater is like our gem for that kind of thing. Yeah. Totally. And I wish that people, and it's so great to be in a space where you know when those lights come up, you can leave it all behind. I have a pivot. Please. Get me out of myself. I want to hear about when you worked at The New Yorker.

43:41Okay. Oh, God. Because is it true that you haven't been back in this building since you worked at The New Yorker? Or were you at Times Square? I was at Times Square. Okay. Yeah, I was before. I was pre the move. Me too. Yeah, no kidding. And I have not, for whatever reason, had the willpower to get me to visit. Though this should be when I should actually just rip the bandaid off and like go there right now. But for whatever reason, that was such an intense part of my 20s. I was there during like 2008. I don't know when you were there. But when like magazines were closing every week, like it was a really intense moment.

44:18And I just don't necessarily want to go back. That was right after college. It was right after. Yeah. Well, I did grad school for a year. And then I, yeah, then I, so 2007, I was there from 2007, 2010. Yeah, that must have been like lucky era and like gourmet. That's right. Yeah. I mean, I was at the very tail end of it. It was like super fun. Yeah. And then when the crash happened, I was there for like, oh, hiring freezes? Like I have three people's jobs now and I make$26 ,000 a year. Do you ever miss working in an office? Like what's your daily schedule? Yeah. I mean, this is the last kind of office I worked in.

44:47I mean, I teach. I teach at Yale. So half of a year I'm commuting to Connecticut. I have an office there. Yeah. And I have a home office. And there's times when I've had like a studio. I do like the commute because I do think it's like an essential part of letting something go and opening up my other half of my life. But I do miss it a little bit. Working in media is so wild because you get news where everyone else gets the news. That is true. And then you watch the world see the news. And then it's like a whole meta level of like you're like a James Bond villain. Yeah. I remember when I told this story before, but I remember when Michael Jackson died.

45:23And David Remnick used to make these. He used to kind of make the rounds every afternoon where he would like walk the halls just to be a good boss and check on things. And I remember he passed my cubicle and I went, I was like, David, Michael Jackson just died. And he turned to me and he went, what? No, he didn't. I was like, no, Michael Jackson definitely just died. You know, David, like David Romnick. And I remember the look on his face. He, like, turned white. He, like, blanched. I could see the work he knew he had to do. Because it was, like, 4 p.m. or something in the middle of the day. He was, like, he probably had to, like, break up an issue.

45:58I had no idea what was going on. But I remember him, like, turning white and his face getting really serious. And him, like, turning on a dime and running back to his office. Oh, my God. And I was, like, media. Like, I am, like, the one who broke the news. Exactly. I broke the news of Michael Jackson's dad to David Romnick. And the world. And the world. It was so funny. But I do, I miss that stuff. And I miss, like, the nice thing about magazines is you get to see the thing you've been working on, like, happen regularly. You know, where's the play? It, like, takes me a year. Right. Yeah. This is, things are going up every minute.

46:31It's, like, the churn. Kids are like that. Kids? Yeah, but no one cares about my kids. Good transition. Although, funny enough. Tearing Carly up for the next question. Wait, this is iconic. Two icons with no boundaries in media. Is that the name of the podcast? Two icons with no boundaries in media? It is now.

46:56When we spoke, your second daughter was like immediately on the way. So now you're the father of two girls. I am. How is that going? And how did you land on the name Neon, which is incredible? LOL. Okay. It's wild. So we're like six and a half weeks in. Oh, my God. We have an incredible woman named Maria who helps us out, who's actually Indigo. Indigo's my oldest daughter, and it was her nanny from like age two or three, and now we're like hitting reset on the clock. So we have support during the day. My husband had four weeks of paternity leave, and now he's started back on Tuesdays. Now it's like my turn.

47:29Oh, man. And, you know, toddlers, toddlers, I'm talking about an infant. She's a newborn. They don't really care about you. Like, they don't really know what's going on. They don't know what night and day is. You know, they're like sleep. She's a bean. She's like a ferret. She's a larva, basically. And it's true for like two months, your kid's just a larva. Yeah. You know, they like squirm. They don't have personality. They sleep when they want. And it's kind of hilarious because, you know, we're obviously two and through because there's no whoopsies in our house. So everything is sort of like for the last time, you know.

47:57I'm always like, oh, like very sentimental. Because, you know, we had to go during COVID. And it was like, like stick, like just shock in my life. Like just jackknifed by that experience in the best way. Of course, it was like the most wonderful time of my life, but you just don't know anything. And this time I do know a little bit of stuff, so it's kind of relaxing. But also everything is kind of imbued with like wistfulness because, you know, kids are miracles. Like babies are miracles. We're all miracles. It changes the way you think about every human being. I don't know if this is your experience, but you just sort of like see.

48:31I remember feeling like I like peeked behind the curtain of life a little bit. I'm like, oh, that's what happens. Wow. So this is true. What theater have you taken Indigo to? Zero theater. I've taken her to, actually, I take her sometimes to the family matinees at the Joyce. So she's seen like dance shows because it's short enough. That's great. Yeah. That's fun. Actually, I tried to take her to Elf, and she literally walked out at intermission. I was like, this is my daughter. Oh, my God. Literally. She's like, no. The lights came out at intermission. She literally said to me, do we have to stay?

48:56And I'm like, wait, this is literally a children's musical. And you are telling me that you want to go home at intermission? Like, I'm too blue. But anyway, to answer the question, it is of neon. You know, so Indigo was kind of like a whim and like a COVID whim. And but that name like really landed for people. We thought it was like super risky and people like love it. Yeah. And we were like, well, we knew we were having our second kid. We were like, oh, this is tough because we don't want to have a complex where like our youngest daughter has to grow with ever being like. Jane. Indigo. Yeah. She's like Susan or whatever.

49:28Yeah. And so it really stressed us out because we could not figure out there's like not another Indigo. Yeah. And then we went through every other color. you know and then we had this like the game of it was that like I came up with the long list and then my husband whittled it down to like the short list of three and then I would choose on the day of and this is too much no it's great what were the other two on the three oh well I'll tell you some of those that we did not go with that were long list you're gonna do not wait y 'all are gonna judge me no matter what I say it was chaos okay cedar okay I don't hate it go on go on cedar cool cool Sequoia okay there's a theme the faces you're making you're chilling to me okay so no one can see the faces you're making but me um uh Aurora we liked Aurora okay we're very in sleeping beauty in my house right now so very very uh deep Aurora at the moment um oh Blaze okay these are fun um yeah we wanted things that yeah for me it was about like things the words that what they made you see in your mind first and I like that Neon Neon's gonna be so cool in high school, it's going to be a nightmare.

50:36Or she'll be like, or she would like curse. She's like a baby bookkeeper or something and she's just like not into it. She changes her name to Brandy or something. I don't know what's going to happen. But yeah, no, she's, so we chose Neon because it means, in ancient Greek, it means something new. And we liked that she would not, it's not, Indigo has like a lyrical thing happening with it, but Neon is like a different energy with the same color story. and so that was why we did that. Loved it. Yeah, we thought it made you think of lights. Absolutely. You know, and... They sound so good together.

51:11Broadway lights. That's so cute. What's Indigo's vibe with neon? Oh, she's great. She's a great big sister. Already, yeah. We're relieved because we would hear horror stories. I have a very good friend who's like a child's... Dare to dream. Wait, what's the age difference between yours? 22 months. And... And a lifetime of pain. Less than two years. Are they two girls? Boy, girl. Oh, okay. You're gonna be okay. A very dear friend of mine, actually Indigo's godmother, is a family psychologist. And she broke it down for us. She's like, the thing you really want is a girl first, then you want a two-year gap, and then you want a boy.

51:42That's the only stable version of siblings. She's like, everything else is like a bit of a recipe for disaster. And so, of course, we were like, why aren't we two girls? But four years has been good because Indigo has got an identity now. She's at school, so she doesn't feel like competing with her. That's huge. She also thinks it's her baby, which is insane. That's so cute. She's super, she's incredibly cute. Where are you? Well, my daughter's turning three, and I was just introduced to the term three-nager. Oh, yeah. So, you know, parenting's full of lies, as I'm sure you know, because you probably had a childbirth experience.

52:17But one of them is that people say terrible twos, but actually it's terrible threes. Oh, no. She's so bossy. I mean, last night she was like, have this carrot. And I was like, okay, she'll just eat the whole carrot. It's terrifying. You're like, where do you get this from? Who is teaching you to be this way? We're all so scared. No, totally. Your kids make you scared. And I find that insane because you were just changing her diaper. You were wiping things out of her nether regions that she didn't know about. And she's going to turn to you and be like, you're ruining my life. It's crazy feeling.

52:47You understand what family drama is about. Totally. It all comes back to family drama. Yes, it does. I get why people's moms were super resentful growing up. Because you just didn't respect them. You just did not understand what they did for you. Brandon, I want to know about what you're wearing to the Met Gala because you are on the host committee. You are a host and you will be tailored, I assume. I don't know what I'm wearing yet. I have a really amazing stylist who I brought on to help. Who's that? Right now it's Ian Bradley who is incredibly smart and so fun. And he dressed a very dear friend of mine, Lila Neugebauer, for her film junkets.

53:27Oh, yes. She could not speak more highly of him, and she's not a fancy celebrity. And, you know, it's hard because I've had Silas who are like, oh, you're a playwright, and then just never turn my phone call to take my money. And I'm like, what's happening right now? Where'd you go? What did I do to you? Yeah. So, but yes, I'm very excited. I don't really even know what to do with this event. But I also know Monica Miller, who's a genius, whose book inspired the exhibit. I know her a little bit and she one of my first plays she was she did like a talk back with me no way that's so fun so I feel a little bit like I have this in oh that's amazing through her that's a good in yeah my mindset is like have fun yeah exactly you know my museum Brandon we are so happy you came I wish we could stay here for much longer I know all good well thank you guys for having me I hope this is useful oh my god thank you so much that's it for the show this week we'll see you soon

54:28The Run-Through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Joanna Solitaroff. It's engineered by Jake Loomis, Luke Mosley, and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Stephanie Kariuki is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's head of global audio.

54:54From PRX.