Chemena Kamali on Her Second Collection For Chloé and "Boho"

0:08This is The Run Through. I'm Nicole Phelps. And I'm Mark Holgate. Today on the show, we are talking to Chamina Kamali. Chamina joined Chloe as creative director in October of last year. And this role is her third time working at Chloe, which is pretty remarkable. She was an intern, then a junior designer, and she was first there 20 years ago. Yes, and from being worn by Sienna Miller to VP Kamala Harris, I think we can safely say that Chloe is having a moment thanks to her. And we talked about the success of her first show, how she stays grounded throughout the immense success that she's enjoying, what we can expect from the next show, and of course, that four-letter word, boho.

0:51I always like going back to Gabby Aguillon, the founder of Chloe, because she's so unique in the history of French fashion, right? It's a story of a lot of men launching couture brands. A lot of men. I mean, I think that's what's really interesting. She's not perhaps given the accolades and recognition that she deserves for founding that house in the 50s, but also being a woman founding a fashion house, which was really about meeting the needs of women in the post-war world. It wasn't about evening gowns and furs and couture. It was really about a very grounded, real way of thinking how women might want to dress.

1:30And you can see that correlation between then and the Chloe that Shamina's envisaging for today. It really kind of makes sense. In fact, there was an exhibition of Chloe collections over the decades at the Jewish Museum in New York earlier this year. And one thing the curator pointed out is that there's not a lot of Chloe from those very early years. And I think it's because, as has been true over the decades with a lot of the designers who have been there, is that women actually wore the clothes in their day-to-day lives. And if you do that, they don't hold up like a couture gown does or a fur coat does or something like that.

2:11And so it seems, looking at Chimina's early days, that she's making those kind of clothes too. Okay, well, enough preamble. Here's our conversation with Chimina Kamali.

2:28hi chamina mark and i are so happy to see you today we wish we were there in paris with you hi hi mark hi nicole so good to see you and really really happy to be here and see both of you unfortunately only on screen but soon in paris in person i guess the first time i met you was in Paris maybe it was January of this year and we chatted in that beautiful office of yours which I think you had that wonderful Vladimir Kogan sofa I think and I remember a lot of really delicious pastries which I'm thinking about now because I had no breakfast this morning because it's really early here but yes I remember that morning very well and are you in that office today for this conversation so I'm in the archive actually I'm in the and the Chloe archives on the really top floor of our building where there's all the boxes and cupboards full of archive pieces and old sketches.

3:23Okay. I'm sure you spend a lot of time there. Exactly. That makes me think of an Instagram post I saw on your feed this week. It was from Fall 77. It was a Karl Lagerfeld collection for Chloe. And I wondered if that's a hint of what's to come for your spring 2025. We're talking to you a week and a half before your show, but this is going to air right before your show. It is not a hint. It was a little bit of a memory post because these images that I posted were on my very first mood board for my very first collection for Chloe, which was the pre-fall. And it was all about the boot sucking because I sort of just stumbled across those images again.

4:08and it was really one of those first images that I put up there because I just thought it was so nice to see how these dresses and skirts and culottes were kind of tucked into those high musketeer boots and it was a little bit of an inspiration as well for obviously people but also going into my first show and so it was kind of just a little memory post just because I love the images. So that first show was obviously hugely successful enormously successful and deservedly so so what's the kind of mindset going into the second one I have to say that it feels different this time because uh first time around like basically six months ago exactly six months ago a few days before my first show nothing has really been out there yet you know I haven't really shown anything to the public and I was working on this first show and it was a moment in time where I felt like I was really in a bubble where I was with my team and it was a very intimate time and it was very much about kind of this emotional connection I had to Chloe and for such a long time now in my life and so I had you know my own connection to the to the to the house to the history my own sort of intuitive feeling about what I wanted to do and how I want to connect the past and the the DNA and this rich history to two times today and I also kind of asked myself you know how do I feel myself as a as a designer but also as a woman what do I miss in fashion what do I you know what do I long for and how do I feel and in a way all these sort of very intuitive personal questions were sort of like surrounding me and I didn't have any benchmark you know I didn't really had any reaction yet to anything I was doing so So this time around, it's different because I've had all these reactions.

6:03A lot of reactions, a lot of very positive reactions. Yeah, it was really incredible these past six months and very emotional also to get all this positive feedback, all these reactions, all this sort of love and positivity that was sort of like coming to us. In a way, what I realized is that it's not just me who's so in love with this DNA and the spirit of this kind of clothes, but also this kind of woman or this sort of feeling in fashion. But there's many other women that missed it, too, and that love it very much. There was this genuine sort of love and positive energy for these kind of clothes coming back and for this kind of feeling coming back into fashion.

6:48And that obviously made me so happy and I couldn't believe it. Well, Shamina, some designers say that the second show is harder than the first, especially when the first has been a success. Would you say that's true for you or did you always have a clear idea of what you wanted to do for your sophomore collection? I wouldn't say it's more difficult. It's just very different. the main difference is that before no one was really watching and now there's obviously more attention and with attention comes more expectation and with more expectation comes more pressure in a way so I'm feeling that more this time than I than I felt it during or just before my first show I've had such a long history with the house you know I mean I've been here three times so I know the archives inside out I don't have this objective view on Chloe I it's a very personal relatable sort of connection to it and so I don't think that I need to sort of force anything out of me it's it's something that comes quite naturally and it's just a continuation of what I started to build and it's just a continuation in exploring all these beautiful moments of the history of the brand that have not really been shown yet or told yet you know so it's kind of also such an honor to be able to for the second time show a few more sides that haven't been shown yet i'd love to ask you because you mentioned this is your third time at the house um and when you and i met you told me a great story about starting the very first time when you came from germany to paris to try and get an internship there i'd love you to tell me that story again because it was so much fun and also i feel like it was you're very determined and i think you might be a Capricorns I'm also wondering if that's kind of astrological alignment yes Capricorn yeah it was the end of my BA and um you know all the I was studying I did my BA in Germany so I I had to do this sort of internship semester and everybody all the students had to kind of send applications for internships to to all to all the houses to all different brands and And me, I really didn't want to send out any applications because I really only wanted to do my internship at Chloe.

9:11As a German girl growing up in the 90s, Karl Lagerfeld obviously was a huge inspiration. And he was at Chloe for the second time in the 90s, the first time obviously 60s to the 80s, and then the second time in the 90s. And so I sort of discovered Chloe through Carl in the 90s because Carl was such an icon in Germany and he was kind of the ultimate inspiration. And so I very early on had this sort of obsession with Chloe and I really wanted to go to Paris and work at Chloe. And so I said, look, I'm not going to send out any application because I wasn't really studying at one of the most known prestigious schools.

9:53I was at a great university in Germany, but it wasn't like a famous fashion course. So I thought I'm not going to have any chance and they're not going to even look at my portfolio or my application or whatever. So I said, look, I'm just going to take the train from Dusseldorf to Paris. I had no clue. I mean, literally, I had no connection, no name, no person. I just knew the address of the headquarters. and I took the train for the day, showed up at the reception. The French receptionist thought I was completely nuts for showing up like this without a meeting, without an appointment, without even having a contact to call basically.

10:32So I said, you look, I'm only here for the day and if it's possible to see someone from the studio, maybe the studio director and obviously they said no multiple times, it's not possible, I should come back, I should get an appointment and so on. And so I waited there for hours and hours and I was sort of harassing her. And I think she hated me. And I was just pleased just 10 minutes. You know, I have to take the train back to Germany and please let me see someone. And so she tried. And yes, ultimately, it worked out. I was able to see the studio director at the time and was able to show her my portfolio.

11:07And she said she's going to get back to me. And then two weeks later, I got the phone call that I could start and couldn't come. Yeah, well, I think it shows that tenacity pays off. And to anyone who's looking to get an internship or go work at a house, try the Sharina approach. How does that tenacity, that Capricorn energy come through today in your day-to-day work life? I'm a very hands-on person myself. I like to be very much involved in everything. It's something I enjoy. I kind of enjoy every single part of the process. So my nature is kind of wanting to be involved in a very active way and in a very hands-on way.

11:56I think, you know, one of, let's say, the Capricorn features is maybe also to be quite a grounded person. You strike me as someone who is incredibly grounded and thoughtful. But at the same time, it's interesting because that first collection of it is such a huge success. And there was so much attention on you. And it was one of the most viewed shows on Vogue runway. So I guess I'd like to know, how do you balance that kind of groundedness and level headedness with all of the melee and kind of drama of success? I'm always someone who tries to remind myself of how it all started, you know, not just these past six months, but like the last 20 years.

12:41I'm someone who I would say knows the job that I'm doing from like A to Z in a way. Like, you know, when you start really, you know, at a very, very junior level and you work every stage of your career and every step of this pathway, it doesn't go so fast. It actually goes healthy and step by step. I've worked for such a long time in different houses and different positions and I loved every single part of it, like I loved every single sequence in a way all the different years and all the different kind of experiences I had and even when I worked in other places I always felt like this Chloe spirit was in me very naturally and so now being able to give it a voice and being able to have this audience who's you know, super excited about it.

13:35It's giving me so much energy and it makes me incredibly happy.

13:54Right now, in movies, in the opera, even in pop music, divinely inspired women are everywhere. This week on Critics at Large, we make our case. Saints are having a moment. Look, I can spout off any number of cliches, but they're all true. The world is moving faster and faster. Materialism is now reaching every single corner of the globe. It's very hard to say no and to say stop and to say I will do without. And I think that explains some of the modern cultural appeal. I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts on Critics at Large from The New Yorker. Find us every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

14:43Shamina, our colleague, the very aptly named Chloe Shama profiled you in Vogue's October issue, which is already online for all who want to read it. But both Mark and I were really moved by a quote you gave her. You said that Chloe is not transformative. Wearing Chloe is about feeling like yourself. And we wanted you to talk a little bit more about that. What does that mean? In a way, what I feel is so unique about Chloe is that it's not about the sort of idea of a woman. It's not like this objective view on a woman, but it's really about being able to be yourself. And it's a brand that women really connect to in a personal way.

15:31And it has this relatability that is very refreshing because you feel like you know this woman in a way. Like you feel that there's this relatability and this intimacy and also this personal feeling. and what I find very inspiring to see also in the past few weeks and months is you know now that the collection is out in stores and everything became more real so you see more women wearing it you know you see women on the street wearing it or I see you know girls in the studio wearing it or you see it on the red carpet and all these women are quite different with different styles and different and attitudes, but they all sort of make it their own.

16:17It doesn't transform them, but it gives them the freedom to make it personal. And I think this is very much what Chloe is about, this sort of relatability and freedom also that the clothes give you. Well, we've noticed a ton of people wearing it ourselves. You know, obviously, Sienna Miller, who has a longstanding association with the house, who's looked incredible in everything that she's worn. Beyonce, Beyonce, JLo and Democratic nominee Kamala Harris as well, vice president. So why do you think it makes them feel that they can be kind of themselves in your clothes? What's the appeal? All of them have a certain ease wearing it, you know, and I think you feel it.

17:03And you also hear them say it. Oh, my God, I haven't felt this comfortable on a red carpet since a very, very long time. And that really is the biggest compliment for me to also hear that they've just enjoyed the evening and felt great and at ease and themselves. And I think that's what we need to achieve. It was lovely to see you at the Met in May. And that was always such a kind of major moment then, too, with everyone that you brought. That was really kind of a fantastic moment. What was that like to be on the red carpet yourself and to suddenly be in that kind of reality, a different kind of reality?

17:40yeah that was really a different kind of thing

17:46and like i was so happy to see the both of you i'm like oh i know him i know her it was a fun night honestly i was really nervous because you know you have all these people like telling you okay so you have to do this and this and you have to go up the stairs and then there's this and then five minutes here and five minutes there it was just so new obviously and so huge but But I had the pleasure to be in such a great company. Honestly, we had such a fun night. I was in a group of great women. I mean, Sienna Miller, Greta Gerwig, Zoe Saldana, Emma Mackey. We had so much fun. Honestly, we met before at the hotel while getting ready.

18:26And everybody was so excited. Everyone felt beautiful in the clothes. And we were kind of getting into the right mindset. And they really took away all my fear and nervousness. And I was really surrounded by a really cool crew of women that obviously were professionals on the red carpet. And I was in the middle and I actually didn't really have to do anything. They were just like guiding me, pushing me from left to right and up. And so I was honestly totally fine. Very memorable. Very, very memorable night. So back to effortlessness and ease, which you were talking about earlier, those are ideas that Gabby Aguillon really founded Chloe on.

19:09For the listeners who don't know about Chloe's early days, can you tell us a little bit about her and why she launched the brand? Yeah, it was the late 50s in Paris and obviously the times were kind of dominated by couture and all the big couturiers of that era. and Gabi, you know, she came to Paris from Egypt and she really was a very forward-thinking pioneer back then. You know, she really had this strong belief in wanting to make women feel more at ease, more free in movement. So she wanted to liberate women from the stiffness of couture of the times and was one of the first women who actually launched ready-to-wear because back in the days, there wasn't any ready-to-wear available.

19:57It was everything there was with couture. And so she really was the one who championed luxury ready to wear, as we know it. And her belief was that she wanted to empower women to feel free, to live independent lives, to pursue a career, to be able to work and have a job. And therefore, you need to move freely. You need to be at ease. You need to be comfortable. You need to wear pants. You need to wear things that don't restrict you. we forget that it was also about sort of giving women this kind of courage and motivation to dare to live the lives they want to live by their own beliefs and their own values.

20:40And I think that is something quite unique in the story of the house. When you look back into the most relevant periods, in my opinion, of Chloe, which were kind of the early, you know, the 60s to the mid 80s. and again, the sort of late 90s, early 2000 era. In a way, this kind of forward-thinking approach that Gabby Aguillon created as a foundation of the brand was sort of, you know, evolved over the years and was always used as a foundation for everything that came after that. I want to bring up a four-letter word, B-O-H-O, boho. Oh my God. When I interviewed you, I'd been prepping for my interview and chatting to Nicole and chatting to two of our really wonderful colleagues Jose and Laia and Jose and Laia are a little younger than me and they were very interested to know your thoughts on BOHO and it was interesting because I feel like we talked about it and then the world kept talking about it but you I think said well actually I never mentioned BOHO I never really it wasn't in my mindset at all for the collection so what do you think of BOHO?

21:49I knew you were going to bring this up well we've had a boho summer we've had a brat summer so just exactly so let's talk about it let's talk about it the truth is coming up now now i can say it no it's because you know in a way i feel like 10 12 years ago the message of of what really is boho and bohemian has kind of been diluted and over commercialized and this is was like 10 12 years ago and i felt that there was like an oversaturation at that time of the use of this sort of description of this kind of mood but what I said also to you when we had our chat I said you know it's it's for me it's not necessarily the return of boho but it's for me more this kind of spirit of the 70s which obviously it's also the era where when we talk about a bohemian lifestyle or a bohemian approach in life is sort of was born in the 70s and it came with all the kind of revolutions that happened in that era in terms of this sort of liberation it was the era of liberation it was the era where really when we speak about freedom it was really in the 70s when there was a huge movement and when we talk aesthetically it was a time where it was about natural beauty and undoneness and a certain ease and a certain effortlessness and and um and so yeah coming back to boho i feel that it was this longing for the spirit and yes it was labeled this way now it was labeled boho and fine you know you you give it a name but in a way ultimately it's rooted in the 70s it's rooted in that era and this era is obviously naturally connected to chloe it's not a trend and it's not a fashion moment because it's more of a state of mind.

23:50And it's a Chloe state of mind. And I'd rather see it this way than label it boho because it's not a trend. You know, it's not just something that will go away. And it's something that has always been in the Chloe aura in a way.

24:13Thank you.

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24:57As a mother myself, Shamina, I'm curious about how your kids have adjusted to this new role of yours. We saw that beautiful moment last season where your son ran into your arms as you came out for your bow. That was really, really nice. And another unexpected moment that happened. I mean, yeah, we told him before the show, I mean, I have two little sons. They're two, I mean, almost three and five. And we only took Vito, the five-year-old, because the other one, it would have been too much for him, I think. And so we told him, look, you're going to be at your best behavior. You're going to sit in between your dad and your grandmother.

25:38And if you behave and if you stay seated and don't scream around, don't jump around. And just if you're at your best, we're going to go to the aquarium on Saturday, which is his big obsession at the moment or back then. And he was great. You know, he was really he sat the whole time. He was super, you know, engaged and impressed by what was happening. I mean, for him, it was a huge moment. And he was really great up until the moment I came out when my husband let go of him because he was starting to clap. And then he was just gone. You know, he was just sprinting and I didn't know what to do. I was, you know, putting him back.

26:17And no, it was such a great, such a great moment. And I can imagine everyone sort of missing their kids because I would if I would see that. And no, but yeah, how my kids deal with it, to be very honest, nothing really has changed. You know, I don't think that I don't think I mean, the little one, not at all. But like, I don't even think Vito is realizing it so clearly. I mean, he knows that at a certain time of the year, mama gets again really, really busy and comes home much later than usual. And yes, and he knows I'm working on the show again. and he knows there's going to be the new show coming up.

26:56And he's asking me if he can wear those shoes to the next show. So he's kind of like, he's aware of it, but I don't think yet there's this like real understanding of the full context. Shemina, when I did meet you some months ago, and I was trying to get a little information about that debut. And I said, could you describe the debut in five words? And you came up with this brilliant answer. Chloe Chloe Chloe Chloe Chloe so I have to ask you for the next show what are the five words I told you the truth right you did you absolutely did it is Chloe Chloe Chloe Chloe Chloe um no I mean it's a it's a it's a continuation of um you know a lot of the things that we started building um it's also an exploration in other in other ideas that have not been shown yet and that are in the history of our in the real rich history and the amazing archives of of this house and um and all i can say is i will see you there okay we're looking forward to seeing it i guess i should have given you six words so you could have said it would be more Chloe Chloe Chloe Chloe anyway we're very much looking forward to seeing you in Paris and seeing your second collection I am really looking forward to you guys to seeing you and um and it's so soon so um it is I can't wait to see you and this was really great thank you so much for for having me thank you and see you very soon.

28:35Big kiss from Paris.

28:40The Run-Through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex De Palma, and Joanna Solitaroff. Fran Bandy and Mike Kutchman are our mix engineers. Stephanie Kariuki is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Kande Nast's head of global audio.

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