Ellen Hodakova Larsson on the Business of Being Hodakova

0:05This is The Run Through. I'm Nicole Phelps. Today we're recording from Vogue's Paris offices and I'm joined by my fabulous colleague and frequent guest of the podcast, Laird Borelli-Person. Hi, Laird. Hi, Nicole. I'm so happy to be here with you. And I'm so excited to speak with our guest today, Ellen Hodakova-Larsen, creator of the Hodakova label. Laird, you are always first in line, and you wrote about Ellen's work way back in 2021. What do you remember about that first encounter? It was just completely ingenious. Actually, when Ellen graduated weekday, gave her the opportunity to create some garments and they were pieced together from existing things.

0:50So a bit of a spirit of Margiella, but something very much her own. And then the following collection she did with a community of friends in Stockholm, which was cozy and homey and also enchanting to me. Well, Ellen is here in the office with us, so let's get into the conversation. Welcome, Ellen. Thank you. Your Paris Fashion Week show is in a few days, and it's time to check in. How are you feeling? I'm starting just bits and bits, starting to get things in order, but I'm very excited. Well, paint us a little bit of a picture of what getting things in order means. Organizing shipping, getting their clothes ready, trying them on, and just finding out the location and all the setup and just make sure that it's the energy that is going to be presented.

1:50So Ellen, it's your first podcast with us. Can you tell us a little bit about how and why you got into fashion? um yeah I think I've been like since I was I think I'm just interested in the communication part of clothing and like how it actually spreads your awareness around your surroundings or with people and like how you talk to each other and that's definitely by just growing up with a mother who was interested in representing herself for us. And my dad was in the military, was in the army, and also was dressing very uniform. And I think it comes initially from that. But also I grew up in the stable on the horse.

2:41And it feels like when I was competing in various horse competitions, it was initially by dressing by tradition and like how you actually dress to be appropriate. And then you realize that there's levels of the approach initially. So I think it's just started there. That's my interest in the medium. But the creative part definitely comes by curiosity of trying to understand possibilities and curiosity of diving into garments and material. It doesn't need to be garments, but like material itself and trying to understand the levels of the portrait of it initially. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. And also with the materials telling, I love how you speak about, you know, capturing the stories that are always there because you work with a lot of upcycled and found things.

3:39Yeah. It's all about the story initially. I mean, what we do as humans is to tell stories, and how we share it is to create the understanding of the world. and the commitment and who you are around, etc. So I think the stories are so important for all of us. And when we share it, it becomes new levels and new stories are created. And when you understand a previous story or history, you also realize the presence, I guess. And the presence is what we have. And time is limited, I guess. I love that. I would like to hear more about your background. So you're Swedish. Where did you grow up in Sweden?

4:26How were you raised? How did you find your way to horses? So I was brought up on a horse farm initially on the like one hour from Stockholm. And my childhood was very much like what I see today was just being in the nature and in the forest. And my mom and dad was releasing me and my brother out in the nature just to just be, I guess, and learn the way. They've never been forcing us to something. And they trusted us to learn the way we or learn by doing, I guess. And three weeks ago, I went out writing. And I haven't been writing for a while. So I jump up on the horse and I have been riding this horse before, but he is, he's like an animal who acts very, I mean, horses are, they want to fly and it's all about like looking for danger all the time.

5:29So your approach towards the horse is to give security, right? And security and trust for the animal to just walk around. So if you're riding a specific path, you just need to give the security to the horse. This is not in danger. We're not in danger and this will be a safe environment. And I think that that has shaped me a lot. because it gives like what I put into my brand and my work of figuring out the way where we're going or working with material that has something that that you act on or that you react on it requires your trust and intuition and I think it has something with this following the balance of the needs, I guess.

6:22Sorry for being philosophical, but it's just, it's an important thing. And I think that that has, like my upbringing has brought that to me. I don't know. I'm following, I'm just following the creativeness. It's funny that you say philosophical because we want you to talk more about your design philosophy. You are talking sort of theoretically, But maybe speak more concretely about found materials and why you choose to use. You often are using things that you come across. You know, you're not going to the fabric store necessarily and buying fabric or a factory the way another designer might. I'm curious about material and how the perspective of that can change.

7:09And when you put things in another sphere or you put them in another room, so to say, it changes the perspective of the piece and also how you can work with repetition or you can work with minimalism to change this perspective of the piece. And that has always been creating a curiosity for me. So is it fair to say that the materials are kind of like the horse and you are guiding them? Yeah, for sure. And can you describe, for example, one of your famous jackets made out of a pant or the skirts that are 20 pants or something? So we get a word picture of some of the better known pieces. Yeah, so some of the earlier works was made out of, I think it was like a skirt or a dress made out of 20, 40 pants or something.

8:09So it became like a huge gown. And when you put that kind of repetition into a material, it changes the perspective of what the actual raw material is. or by using spoons, for example, when you put them into a frame, you're starting to look at them differently and you will see the bits and pieces that is there, but you don't focus on it when you're firstly reacting on it. So the spoon piece that has become famous, Cate Blanchett wore it on the red carpet. Were you surprised to see a sort of a conceptual, pretty avant-garde piece of yours wind up on the red carpet like that not on cape blanchett to be honest you're a fan yeah we all are great she's great i think everyone should be if they're not so yeah i think um she's definitely rocking it and she has to she has that perspective that that can bring the idea to life.

9:18And also because I think, for me, I trust her as a fashion person. She's made so many good choices that it didn't feel like it was a gimmick. It was part of her continuing conversation with clothes, which was really, I mean, there's nothing, she doesn't need attention, so she's not wearing it to get attention. It's because she likes it, or that's the feeling I get. Well, she is a celebrity who has made a point, I think, of re-wearing pieces. You know, so you might see her in a dress or a dress that's been slightly modified that she's worn before. So when she wore that piece, I saw it as part of her efforts to talk about the waste in fashion or the waste in Hollywood.

10:06And, you know, by showing that, you know, you can look fashionable and chic and fabulous in the oddest pieces. which is, you know, it was basically a top with spoons embroidered on it, right? How do you attach them to the garment? And remind us what collection that was from. Yeah, I can't remember. It was a fall collection. Yeah, it was fall 2022. We're on fall 2025 now. Yeah, then it would be 2021. Fashion does weird things to time. Yeah, it was included. I did this kind of storytelling in that show about this. Also, the sound of it, it creates this kind of, it's like a huge bell. When it walks around, it creates an aha moment, which is quite interesting.

10:57Yeah. I love the idea of fashion being multisensory. That's one of my favorite things. But another one of my favorite things that you do are multiples. And someday I'm going to go and sit with every picture and pull them all out and make a portfolio. But I think you're most famous for belts. Can you tell us the story of your history of Hodakova belt looks? Yeah, they've been a signature now for long. It's interesting with the belts because I kind of grew up with taking care of leather in the stable. and my dad was always you know taking care of his leather shoes and he was also very proper like I think it's about the longevity that the belt has like leather in general it has such a like if you take care of it it ages so well and it sustains forever and it's getting better every every year if you take care of it and it just started to be like it just came very naturally i guess to just work with them to start this kind of weaving thing and to attach them together and see what what kind of material that can be created out of this and what it happens when it is replicated because the perspective of them changes directly

12:24We're going to take a quick break.

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13:12And we're back. Outside of existing elements, existing pieces, where do you find your inspiration? Where does inspiration come from for you? I think it's everywhere. It's in conversations. It's about being present and read the world, I would say, to just pick up on the things that you react on, to be open-eyed. I think everything surrounding us is there by so many reasons, but if you read it differently or if you're listening carefully or if you're seeing carefully or letting yourself feel, you will always find something that gives you inspiration, I believe. And this collection I've been... I think normally when I start a collection, I'm a little bit confused where I am just because it's almost like a diary entry, like finding out where I am in the world at the moment and where the world are and what to react on initially.

14:21So it's always starting to figure things out. And when you start to realize and follow the intuition of where you're going on what makes a mark on you or things that makes you feel, when you're following those paths, it gives you something new and then it develops, I guess. Yeah, I think the inspiration is everywhere. Can you think of a thing recently, something you saw or heard or watched that turned you on? There was a guy. Turned you on? Yeah. It was an old man who was out on the street and he was wearing this, like he had this super slow walk. And he was just, like he was listening and being very aware of his surrounding.

15:10And he wore this cute, cute, very tight, nice coat. But he was so present in the world. And I think that that kind of presence was, you know, we were connecting in that because I was watching him and he was watching the bird or, you know, like, yeah, that's my bit in pieces. Yeah, it starts, I don't know, you can't really source for it. It just happens. So not a mood board kind of thing. No, I mean, it can develop into one, but I think it always starts by intuition and by occasion. I'm wondering who you look up to or whose work you admire and if that has any impact on what you do. I think everyone is.

15:58I think everyone looks up to someone. And I think my mom has always been my biggest person. And, of course, there's actors and movie makers and dancers. I love Pina Bausch. Pina Bausch is a name that came up just a couple of days ago at a Ferragamo show. And so I'm curious, what is it about her that resonates? I mean, I think it was the same season we did. It was the season after the spoon things. So it has to be spring, summer 24 that I was doing a Pina show and it was all about her movement and the work that she's so much has given to the world. And yeah, I think it's the flow and intuition that she can express this in such a minimal way, even though it's so strong.

17:01it's the compotion it's all about the compotion composition or how do you say it exactly and yeah it just brings you to so many emotions and i think that this emote like maybe we're in a period in the world where we are reconnecting to emotions and not being to we're more open to share vulnerability to each other and i think that this way of sharing vulnerability is more inclusive. It's exciting that it is a peanut-bausch moment this year. It feels like it's on everyone's lips. Yeah, I think it has something to this kind of reconnecting to yourself and letting emotions actually speak for you instead of being too detached, I guess.

17:54Laird, you've been to several of Ellen's shows. What emotions do they conjure for you? Oh, so many emotions. I mean, the sheer creativity, the unexpected use of materials, last season, the boots, you know, as the double boots. And I mean, there's a small element of surrealism, but I think it goes further than that because there's such a joy in materials. And the thing that always strikes me about you, Ellen, is I always feel that you're very grounded. You're very solid in yourself and confident, and that brings something to the close. It's not for show. It's like a real study and work through, and I think that comes through.

18:46And there's always a surprise. For example, last season, you collected vintage canvases, paintings, and use both the canvases and the frames, which was really, really ingenious and delightful, actually. Thank you, Lard. I'm in the presence of just finding out the way. I think the work by creating something out of a material is by, you don't know where you're going until you actually work with it. And it's all about the intuition in the material and how it reacts to you and when draping or just creating the sculpture, I think it has to be a curiosity of what it can become instead of deciding before what it should be.

19:34And it's also humorous. I mean, I think the tre bustier was genius. And also that was the show where berets, because you were showing in Paris and you made something with lots of, was it a skirt with berets or something? So there was something like sweetly funny also about it that, and yeah, it was just like a tray as a bustier. But it's very prescient because so many people are doing armor these days. And that was brought into the place. Yeah. Yeah. More with Ellen Hodakova-Larsen after the break.

20:22Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co-host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

20:57I want to talk about the business of Hodokova because these are very avant-garde and sort of one-of-a-kind pieces that we're talking about. How do you sell those? Do you sell them to individual clients as one-offs? Can you reproduce them if you have several different stores that want pieces like that? Yeah, we have different parts of the business model that works for the couture customer, which is very, I mean, everything is handmade and everything is super, like all of the pieces are very much a choice. and so the more couture pieces they are definitely one of they're super unique they are they are by request um but then we have another part of the collections which is more of the ready to wear which is i mean we've been creating this business model which is or the business model is combined to how the garments are actually made so it's possible to do several of them not huge amounts but enough and it's also about following a little bit what's what's there i mean if we find a part of sweaters let's say then we know the amount the maximum amount of what we can sell in that style and then we have another part which is yeah like the carryovers which is simple changes in in different simple styles that's easy to wear but that's definitely replicated but just by the right amount i would say it's not about the brand is not about pushing any numbers to to gain more profit is is a purpose-based business model which is based on the creativity and and the actual curiosity of surpriceness, I guess.

22:57So all of the ready-to-wear is also connected to the couture. So that really is doing business differently. I don't think you'd have a lot of, you know, designers and certainly not business leaders at fashion brands who would say that, you know, they aren't in the business to make more and more money. I mean, that's sort of what sort of the big subject du jour is, right? Yeah. So do you find, is it hard to sort of operate this way? Or are you finding a surprising amount of people who, you know, are responding to it? Yeah, I am. But that's also about sharing the idea of it, I believe. It's not about me following a demand from anyone.

23:48And I think nobody should. And if you're starting to ask what do the customer want, then you're on the wrong track. Like you can't work that way. It has to come from your inner self in a way, what you want. Do you think it's related in any way to the Swedish idea of lagom? Not too little, not too much? Yes, I do. I've been having these kind of discussions with my friends so many times. So in Sweden, we have this word called lagom, which is just enough. And that's mainly by balancing not being too much or too little. And I think that that creates some kind of balance in between, which feels quite nice.

24:40Or it's like an energy which is just enough. And that can definitely be approached to whatever work you're having or what you're doing or creating and the business model that has to be made or how you follow the route initially. This is so interesting what you're saying because middle has been a word that has been reverberating, at least for me, this season. And so people, you know, we have luxury, which is in a state of flux, and you have high street. And then how can you, there are different ways to exist in the middle of these two extremes. Yeah. And I think we need to try new things. It feels like there's an era of doing things differently in so many ways.

25:25And we have to just try things out. And I mean, I started my brand directly after graduating. And it's just learning by doing. And I think it's a good thing because then you don't end up following systems that has been created before, but you're trying to find your own way in making it work. And then you can find new paths or new ways to do it, doing it and create your own system in a way. I'm curious, Ellen, how do you, you know, you're creating a new framework for, you know, going forward in fashion. And within that, how do you measure success? What does it mean to you?

26:09how do i measure success do i have to measure success i don't know maybe everyone does i haven't thought about it in that way but i what came across my mind just now when you asked me was um when my mom and dad are proud i think that that's i'm gonna cry It's so much bigger than getting approved by whomever. Yeah. I mean, I think something similar. Like, it's a hard question to answer. But when I feel like a sense of contentment with the work that I'm doing, you know, a sense of achievement, that's enough success for me, too, I think. What about you, Laird? I think, I mean, my dream for the industry is a better work-life balance.

27:05When I talk to you and you've been horseback riding or I talk to Palomo and he's walked his dog at lunch, I just have to think that people having a little time to breathe, to do something that's not a mood board and just to be in nature or around someone or some animal that you love is just important. And for not any measurable thing, but it does make a difference. So I think for me, success is being able to talk to someone that inspires me. Actually, I don't know if that's success, but that's joy. I guess I'm not answering the question, but that's joy. Interesting that you say that because you're talking about time and how we spend our time.

27:51but by measuring success about in that kind of way of talking about time when it's actually the opposite it creates some kind of delusional approach towards yourself to others and your own well-being I guess and by enjoying life and by enjoying the present you are able to do better work. We all know that. So why should that not be included? Like if it's included in your work pace of, I will do a great job if I'm able to get inspired, to get time to think, to have time to react, to spend the present in exploring and reacting, then your presence will be so much better at work instead of not having time for anything, which means that, I mean, that would be the most optical thing for everyone.

28:54Optimal, sorry. And that brings up presence, like present, like in time and being present in the clothes, because I think you're a maker and I think that your presence is there. Well, I've enjoyed this present time with both of you very much. Thank you, Ellen, for joining us. Thank you so much. Thanks, Nicole. Thank you for having me. So excited to have you for the show.

29:21That's it for The Run-Through. See you tomorrow.

29:32The Run-Through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Joanna Solotaroff. It's engineered by Jake Loomis and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Stephanie Karaoke is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's head of Global Audio.