Grace Coddington On How Fashion Has Changed and ‘The September Issue’

0:00One quince piece that I have found myself going back to is my son's swimsuit. We just bought it for him. He started swim class earlier this month and it's blue and white and perfect material. So soft and smooth. He's seven months old and every Sunday we put him in it and he loves it. He just looks like the cutest little button in it. I love this Quince piece and I know I'll be buying more from them. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too.

0:47And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know that it was the run-through. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden, a bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers, and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames, the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden now, only on Netflix. Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd, causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami.

1:33They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant. What would happen if I stopped doing it? You stormed, you freeze to death, that's what. With great power comes great deniability. I'm not the first daddy. Digger. See the trailer online. Only in the years October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17, not a minute without parent.

2:01This is The Run Through. I'm Chelsea, senior producer of the podcast. I made it to Paris. It is a gorgeous day. It is super sunny. And this is day one of our Paris coverage. I'm going to meet Nicole Phelps outside the Scarborough store. And we're going to speak with Daniel Rosemary about what he has planned for his upcoming collection. So stay tuned.

2:26Well, we're in, I think it's what's called a Hotel Particulier on the Place Vendôme. And you can see the statue tower in the center of the Place from the windows and also a lot of cranes. There is always construction in this part of Paris. And this is the home of Elsa Schiaparelli from when she launched her business before World War II. And it's beautiful and soaked with light. Hi. Hello. Good to see you. I'm so good. This is Chelsea. Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Welcome. I'm like, you're a mohawk. Thanks. Thanks. face. Here we have this sort of like capsule of Elsa jackets and they're all in like you know either the silk velvet or satin or whatever they're intentionally sort of formal because I also think there's a real moment for this and that the purity of the Elsa look like when she was designing jackets they were always dinner jackets the bottoms were always plain because that was under the table but then everything above the table was meant to be attention grabbing so that's where the the scap embroideries were kind of born.

3:44I think at the beginning of my time here especially when we started working on the ready-to-wear there was this urgency or this idea that we had to differentiate the couture from the ready-to-wear and legitimize the ready-to-wear and there was all this conversation and pressure around that and I think in the end it's actually not what the client wants. The client actually wants a distilled version of the couture and not this completely different proposal. So I just think of it as like the same woman, just different part of her life, different corner of her brain. All right, well, fortitude onward.

4:21Thank you for giving us this time. Thank you, guys. See you on Thursday night. Okay, thanks. Bye.

4:32So Nicole and I just walked out of the Schiaparelli preview and I'm going to ask her about her closing thoughts about what she saw. And we are excited to see the Schiaparelli show on Thursday. Daniel is an American in Paris and thrown into the world of haute couture, having worked at Tom Brown on menswear. and he has bit by bit been inserting Americanness in this very French house, even though Elsa Schiaparelli was Italian, with references to his home state of Texas. And this time he's fallen in love with running and marathon training, and so the collection has a definite sort of a sportswear spin.

5:21He said it was built a lot on knits and there's a sleekness of real body consciousness to a lot of the silhouettes. But all of it is built on the, you know, really iconic, really strong images he's created at the couture show. Perfect. Which is clever. Alright, thanks Nicole. See ya.

5:45All right guys it's about 2 15 and I'm outside the Dior show and already it's kind of insane there's a ton of people rushing to get in um and I see Nicole Cool. Hi, Sam. Nice to see you again. How are you guys? We're anticipating sweating quite a little. Yeah, it's hot. It's hot.

6:28It's hot. Thank you. Decade-vous pour le côté de la flotte. Pardon? Hi. Oh, there you are. I'm running. Okay, let me run with you. I just found Chloe right after the show. What did you think? I thought it was really pretty. I thought the set was very soothing. I loved how light the fabrics were, sort of a trompe-loid-like version of what are typically heavier winter fabrics. I liked the layering. I loved the single flower earring coming down and the jewelry I thought was really pretty. and sexy and mermaid-like. And where are you headed now? I am going to my sister's house where Alice is playing with my niece.

7:09I'm going to get her. It's her last day in Paris. Amazing. Oh my God, we have Grace Coddington on the podcast talking about her incredible new book, which features so many of her incredible editorials from the last 10 years. A lot for W Magazine, a lot for Vogue, a lot for Document Journal, and it is always such a pleasure to talk to Grace, but it was particularly fun to get to chat with her before all the shows started and hear what she was excited about. Well, that's coming later on the show, but next up, I'm gonna follow Nicole to Margiela. So see you later, Chloe.

7:52All right, the show just ended and everyone's scurrying out. And I'm trying to see if I can spot Chioma because I haven't seen her yet. Yeah. I love that show. I love that show. I feel like we've been talking about skirts all season. I know. Good skirt. For every personality. I know my colleague Laura loved. Yeah, what do you think, Laura? For the maxi skirt. The maxi skirt. It was there for me. We were choosing a skirt of the season. It was great. I loved the apron skirts, the skirts over pants, the boots, the textures. those like brocades, the little apron dresses. Yeah, so good. It was super good.

8:32I love the menswear too. I could see myself wearing some of those layered, kind of twisted 70s prints. And then they were playing like Hole. Oh my God, I know. The soundtrack was heaven. It was everything. I was like, oh my God, Courtney Love. Yeah. My spirit animal. Yeah. So good. Yeah, it was super good. Yay, thanks, Gemma. It was so nice to see you. It was so fun catching up with Chioma about Margiela, and now we are going to head to a break. You will hear from Grace Coynton very soon. The run-through will be right back after this break.

9:14This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden, A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames. The complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden now, only on Netflix. Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

9:53Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant. What would happen if I stopped doing it? You stormed, you freeze to death, that's what. With great power comes great deniability. I'm not the first daddy. Digger. See the trailer online. Only in the years October 2nd. Rated R. 117 on a minute without parent. Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season.

10:34You create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

10:51Everyone in our office has been so excited. I've had this book on my table, and I find that people just stop and sit down and are going through it and spending time with it, which is very exciting. It's so bright. I mean, I did that on purpose. It's true. It's like a road sign. I do. I think of you as more of an orange person. I feel like the other books have been orange. That was my first one was orange. Exactly. So this felt like a new traffic color. There's so many stories in here from the past 10 years and work with 13 photographers who we love and admire. How does the process begin of how wide is the funnel when you start pulling for this?

11:32Is it all of the shoots and then you go down? Well, I only pulled the ones from the last 10 years. So you're looking at everything. You don't know automatically. I definitely won't include. Oh, I have in my head and I look for them. But, you know, I take all the tear sheets from, well, now not just Vogue, but W document, et cetera, et cetera, Italian Vogue, British Vogue. And I just have these piles and piles and piles. And I go through them to see which story. I mean, I know in my head what stories I love and what I want to have so they last forever sort of thing in a book, as long as the book lasts.

12:14Do the stories that you love change? Well, one always loves the last one one did, you know. So, like, there's one in here that I did right on deadline before they shut me down and said, you've got to stop. and I was adamant that it had to go in and to the point that I had to throw out some other pictures. Which one was that? There's a story I did for W with Craig McDean. And so it's done in sections by photographers. So the pictures I took out were from him. So it's not like he had any less or any more pictures. He's got the same number of pages, but just different pictures. Do you lay it out on a board or on the floor?

13:00Do you look at what the flow is going to be? What's the physical process? You know, I have a board like Vogue on the wall with little minis. I did that for a long time, but it's really complicated carrying that board around because I don't have an office so much. Well, I do, but it's in the country, so it's not convenient. But carrying that board around with magnets on it that all fell off was not very convenient. So I did the first lot and then looked at it like we do or did at Vogue and you see the run of, you know, this photographer and then it's good to break it with that photographer and so on and so on.

13:41And then closer to the end, I get them all printed out and make a dummy book like Vogue makes a dummy book. I mean, you know, I learned from the best. And I worked with Martin Hoops on the layout. And he is so great because he did my last book, too. Oh, I didn't know Martin worked on this. Yeah, so he did all this, you know, and he did the typography. Oh, my God. Martin Hoops was a beloved Vogue art director who is still a local celebrity in these halls. So it's very exciting. Good. No, no, it was great. And he was wonderful to work with, you know, and he didn't get cross every time I changed my mind.

14:24No, he's a good sport. No, put it on the left. No, put it on the right. No, make it smaller. Make it bigger. No, take that one out. I also was very moved by your handwritten remembrance of Michael Roberts that opened the book. And for some reason, seeing it handwritten, I thought was so lovely and powerful. And it was particularly nice for me because I just was rereading Tina Brown's book, The Vanity Fair Diaries, where she obviously talks about Michael so much. He worked as fashion director at Tattler and her Vanity Fair. But I wonder, I loved hearing about your process of working on your memoir, which I remember reading and loving so much.

15:04And I wonder, I think it's very hard to write with other people. Well, unless you can't write. You know, so, which I can't really. I mean, I can and I can't. And I think I can. And then, you know, other people say to me, yeah, yeah, I can fix that for you. And something completely different comes back. So, Michael was someone who could complete my sentences, that sort of, you know, cliche thing. And I'd known him since the early 70s. So, he knew my life very well. And if you read about it in that piece I wrote on him because I was so distressed that he died. And, you know, I'd always, I'd been so close with him.

15:50And I'd done every project that I did since I wasn't just a fashion editor. I did with him. You know, he did my first book with me. He did my second book with me. This is your first book without him? He wrote my memoir, you know. I mean, I wrote it too, but he wrote the outline of it and the inline of it and visually too. I mean, that's the great thing about Michael is he's not only could he write, but he's a visual person too. And that's difficult to find, you know. And he's funny as hell. If you read that story that I wrote about him and I felt it was, I wanted to do it in my handwriting because I felt that I was talking to him, you know.

16:33And as I say, I adored him. And I was worried about doing this book without him, without his final, Grace, are you crazy? Get rid of that terrible picture. Because he was brutal with me, you know. Do you have anyone else who's brutal with you in that way in your life? Well, not quite as brutal, but I have, well, Anna, yes. No, I didn't say that. No, but this book I did with Andrew Bevan. I love Andrew Bevan. He worked at Vogue a bit and for Teen Vogue and so on and so on. And he's become a very close friend and he was up for it. You know, he would give me the time and we had a lot of fun together and a lot of martinis and things like that.

17:21So somehow we got into a rhythm and I, you know, and he's also visual or he sees the big picture. He sees, you know, it as a book, not just a piece of writing or whatever. You talk about Beatrix Miller, who was late great editor of British Vogue, talking about how she wanted shoots to be enhanced reality. Yeah. And that that is what makes them feel special. Yeah. I mean, those words, they just echo in my ears all the time ever since I met her. And I met her a very long time ago when I was a model even because I worked for Vogue. when she was editor too as a model. But it did make me think about how this book, more so than your other two books and what I feel you in your earlier career were known for, this is more shoots that feel like reportage and moments that are more captured and on the street.

18:20Obviously, they are created, but it feels more reportage than sort of lush. I love that you notice that because that was my intention and it's totally the direction that I've gone. And I feel this book is very different because of that, you know. Because I thought when I did it, oh, you know, does anybody want another fashion book of another, you know, pictures that you've seen? And obviously you've seen them more recently because it's just over the last 10 years. And then I thought, well, no, it's kind of interesting to see the about turn of going from complete fantasy like Alice in Wonderland and, you know, all those stories that I did with Annie, which I love, and I think are very important for that moment.

19:08But it's, in my head, I've done a complete about turn, even in terms of choosing clothes. You know, I no longer want to photograph those big fantasy clothes. I'm not interested in the ones that you can't actually wear, you know. What do you think? I almost I like them better if they're just nothing clothes, because then that's more about reality, which is more like you can fit it into a street or or whatever. What do you think accounts for that? Is that just having done fantasy? Maybe the time. Maybe we're not about fantasy anymore, sadly. I mean, I think it certainly, you know, it has a place, but I think that life is very real at the moment, you know.

19:57And there's still a way to do it beautifully, you know. Even she's in a grungy street or something, she doesn't look horrible or even rough, you know. And then, again, she doesn't look too fixed up or not too much makeup. up and the hair is the only thing that I go a bit extreme on because I love big hair. Are there other things in a picture that you won't compromise on? The girl. Okay. The girl. The girl is all important to me. And how do you, I feel that you tend to... Choose a redhead. Choose a redhead. Or I was going to say models who have personality and seem to have a bit of a quirk or something that makes them distinctive.

20:40Definitely. I definitely do. I don't like just a beautiful blonde or, you know, I find that very boring. And so, yes, people like Karen Elson I adore because she's not your classic beauty. And yet she is beautiful, you know. Is that something you identify just upon looking or is that something that comes when you get to know them? I think both. And, you know, I think I was that kind of model too. I wasn't a classic beauty. I know I wasn't. You know, I wasn't number one model or anything, but I was someone that would do something crazy and, you know. Yeah. And I enjoyed that side and I was daring and cut my hair.

21:24How did you and Karen meet? Because I do think of her as someone who's been a consistent muse in your work. Yeah, no, she definitely is and she's a good friend too. Well, I met her because I think I was sitting at Vogue one day and the phone went and it was Stephen Mizell's studio and called me and they said, Stephen's got this new girl and you're just going to love her. And we're going to send you, as soon as we finish this shoot, we're going to send her over to you to meet her and you're going to fall in love. and they were right, you know. And I met her and Stephen had just started working with her and I think he cropped her hair off in that little bob and dyed her hair red, you know, because that's what he does with girls.

22:12He makes them into their own personality and works with it and, you know, he's done it with a lot of models. I wonder, Karen in She Wrote, one of the pieces opening, one of the chapters in here, and she talks about how even in the hottest day, the most stressful set conditions, you're always on your knees, pinning the dress, pulling it down. And I remember you talk about that in the September issue. Why do you think it's important for editors to be in the weeds? I just feel it's important to have a connection with the model. I think and that's one way you know I cheat a bit and if I'm going in pulling the dress I say just turn your head of it to the left because you look you know because I don't want to shout it over the photographer and try to sound like I'm the director you know but I just had noticed that the dress you know yeah so it's an opportunity to to talk to them and and in the dressing room too yeah and And there's so many editors these days that, you know, don't have that communication with the model.

23:27And I find that's crazy, you know, particularly with digital cameras and things. And all people do are look at that screen and they have no connection with the girl. I think it must be really hard to model now with everybody staring at the screen, you know. It was interesting. I was remembering that Polly Mellon said that it can be very lonely to be a fashion editor. But when I think about working on fashion photographs, it seems like such a close and important partnership between the photographer and the editor. And I wonder how different those relationships are depending on who it is. I mean, I've seen you and Annie work together.

24:05But I assume it's different for you and Craig. Well, we're much more mates, me and Craig, than me and Annie. We couldn't exactly call us mates. And she does, doesn't listen to you. You know, she hears it, she takes it in, and if she feels it's right, she responds. But I feel it's much less of a collaboration with her. But the idea itself might have come from me. But it's always a push-pull between the editor and the photographer. Yeah, yeah, it is. Do you find it's more fruitful when you're— I like that, by the way, yeah. Yeah. I would think that there's more— I like being pushed, you know. I mean, it's good for me, you know, particularly as I get older.

24:51Is there anything you won't budge on? I always think about you saying that Annie always likes to add a waist, even if there's... Yes.

25:02Well, she always, she overrode me so many times with that. And she would go up to the girl and go, you know, and I said, no, no, no. The whole thing is it's got a Watteau back, and it's supposed to come out at the back. Can you explain to people what a Watteau back is? Oh, God, I wish it. It's a draped piece of fabric that comes off the back. I know what it is visually, but where did it come from? It came from a period of time. I assume the painter, no? I suppose, yes. It's that period of Watteau. And it's, you know, the dress can be very fitted in the front, but the back is sort of ballooned out, usually from a sort of gathered yoke at the back, and it balloons out.

25:50And I remember one time, and it was in The Wizard of Oz, and we had all painters play the parts, right? and I remember I had this beautiful dress when Nicolas Gasquier was at Balenciaga and it had a little Watto back and it was adorable. It was short. It was a very modern version of old Balenciaga, et cetera, et cetera. So there she is and she's talking to the scarecrow who was Bryce Martin and this poor guy who was up on this stick and with bits of straw coming out of his sleeves and, you know, Annie turned around and said, she asked Kira to turn around and be front on, so she couldn't see the bulging back.

26:39And I turned her back again, and she said, no, no. And then she went over and clenched the waist, and then she said to, I think it was, I think Garen was the hairdresser, and she said to Garen, you know, go pin the dress, you know, when Grace is not looking. And so he went over and clamped the dress, and I went over and took the clamp out. And then she had Mary Howard, the prop, you know, who's an amazing woman, but, you know, she's not a fashion artist. So she had her clamp the dress. And eventually I managed to shoot it with the dress not clamped. But, of course, Annie had the last word, and she retouched it more sculpted.

27:23Wow. What could I do? At that point, there was nothing I could do, but it was annoying. The September issue, I watched it again recently, and it does feel like this moment before everything changed in some ways. It is. It is. It's a very critical moment. It's almost like Berlin in 1938 or something. It's like this crazy precipice that I don't think was anticipated, obviously, at the time. No. Have you watched that movie recently? And how would you articulate the way things have changed since then? Well, fashion has changed a lot, too, since major things have changed in fashion in terms of, you know, fashion shows were getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.