Gwendoline Christie in Conversation with John Galliano at Forces of Fashion

0:05This is The Run Through. I'm Nicole Phelps. It's election day. I hope you've all gone out and exercised your right to vote. If you're anything like me, you need a distraction. And so today we have a very special treat. We have John Galliano, one of fashion's most legendary figures, in conversation with Gwendolyn Christie. Gwendolyn Christie made headlines when she walked in Galliano's Maison Margiela artisanal show in January. It's not the first time she's been on the runway. I've seen her strike a pose at Tom Brown. I've seen her steal the show at Miu Miu. But her Maison Margiela artisanal show will really go down in history.

0:46She was joined by Galliano in conversation last week at Vogue's Forces of Fashion in London. The two friends and collaborators talked about muses, the power of the runway, and the future of the industry. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Here are John Galliano and Gwendolyn Christie. Hello, John. Hi, Gwendolyn. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for all of you to come today to this incredible moment. It is extraordinary for me to have the opportunity to be in conversation with one of my greatest idols, John Galliano, but discussing the power of the runway, which has always been something that John has had an inimitable power over.

1:35So, John, today's conversation, we're going to share the stories behind your most powerful runway moments, which I think there might have been one or two. And I wonder if you could describe the feeling of a runway show through your eyes. the feeling of a runway show um yeah the last the countdown if you like i always remember that bit the fittings that happened the night before that feeling that you're never going to be ready on time um and then this incredible i mean just this meld of all creative types whether it be hair makeup however complicated the stylist um and it all comes together every time it comes together But it's quite a scary moment for me.

2:25Each time, it's quite a scary moment. It doesn't get easier. And, of course, we met and got to know each other through the incredible invitation to be a part of your Maison Margiela show. We are here today at Central Saint Martins. We actually met earlier than that, but you don't want to talk about that, do you? I could talk about it. Maybe later. Maybe later, okay. Those tickets cost a lot more. Well, that vision stayed in my mind for about 10 years. And, yes, we called on Gwendolyn's services, and I didn't let on that. We had actually met before. I didn't let that on, and she was rather hoping I'd forgotten the moment.

3:17So we did the fitting and everything, the walk through the corset training. She really put the time in. And then at the last fitted, I reminded her. Well, it was, do you know what? It is testament to the power of hope, actually. Because, you know, it's common knowledge I've been a huge fan of John and John's work for my entire life. It's given me huge inspiration personally and for my work as an actor. And I was at a party. It might have been quite late. And it was after the Fashion Awards, I think. And I saw John across the room. And you were leaving with some people. And I saw you. And I thought, I will probably never see John Galliano again in my life.

4:07And I have to communicate quite what your work has meant to me. and so I went over and you were so gracious and so kind and generous and I think people were trying to sort of pull me back by my ankles but you were so kind and generous and you said to me I hope we work together one day and so it is remarkable to me that that moment did stay in your mind and you did give me that opportunity and it's something that has changed my life in the most positive, unimaginably beautiful way I could ever have hoped for. Beautiful thing to say, thank you. So we're back here today at St Martin's. I've always been a huge St Martin's fan as well.

4:56And of course you studied at St Martin's. But can you tell me what the course was that you did? It was called a sandwich course, a four-year course. So I also did a year foundation because I hadn't quite decided which way to go. By the end of that year, I definitely knew which way I wanted to go. So I did the four-year fashion course. Prior to that, I'd done two years sex styles at City and East London College. Yes. And you, life at that time, student life at that time was very particular. There was a very vivid youth movement happening, wasn't it? when we look at the Blitz kids and this idea of how people presented themselves then.

5:44Oh, absolutely. These were in the years above me, the Stephen Lennard, Kim Bowen, Steve Strange, Stephen Jones, I think Princess Julia's up somewhere. Yeah, so these are the kind of beautiful, exotic creatures that I was seeing, you know, in the foundation, yeah. I'd never seen people like that, like creatives like that. I'd kind of met people that kind of spoke my language. Yes. So, yeah, there was a club called The Blitz, and that's where these amazing people would hang. I was invited. I was really lucky because at the same time, I was supplementing my saison at St. Martin's. I was a dresser at the National Theatre, and then I was also doing the windows for a shop called Mrs.

6:33Howie, which was in, I can't remember the name of the street, Cobben Garden was a building site at that point. There was only Mrs Howie and PX. And Princess Julia was the sales girl. She took a fancy to me, Spanish John. And so I got invited at a very young age and was a part of that movement, which was electrifying. It was an incredible movement as well, because people were really encouraged to express themselves creatively. And it was all about your look. It was about what you wear, your makeup, how you presented yourself. Oh, you start getting ready, you know, Wednesday afternoon to be ready for Friday, if ever you were, you know.

7:15And it was a very, it was a small group of people, but it actually had huge influence. Although it went, it was an underground youth cultural movement, it did resonate into the fashion press and beyond. Absolutely, absolutely. And the generations after, the Lee Bowery's and so on, and all those amazing clubs that we kind of grew up in. Yeah. Very important part of growing up in London, I think. And you were drawing at the time. I'm so fascinated by your drawings that we spoke about, about this process you discovered with the paper. Because when you were doing your design work and you were creating your collection, you were telling me about this process that you went through with the paper, stretching out the paper.

8:03Yeah, I think we were talking about, Les Inquietables, which was my graduation collection, and creating the whole world around it. Here we are, Les Inquietables. Gendless collection, a collection that could be worn inside out. It could be worn upside down. There was boys and girls and girls and girls. And just creating that whole world. And there I started working with a narrative, a story that inspired everything the the music the hair the makeup the the attitude of the models the casting just everything i think the narrative starting to own one's narrative early on and that also influenced the drawing so i just come back to your point the the the drawings and that you know you had to present your graduation drawings and i love drawing um so they had to look and feel like that too like parchments that had been buried and rusty and so yes i was stretching watercolor paper with tea and then i was whacking wet bits of bread on it to soak up so it looked like 18th century parchment and then i kind of got bored with drawing with my right hand so i thought let's do it with the left so i drew my graduation collection with my left hand which took a bit longer because i love the cocktail continuous line but it was pen and ink so I could only go so far before I had to dip it again.

9:31So I'd stop it and punctuate it with a little cross and keep going. The narrative, the wind, the clothes couldn't just stand there being straight, you know, like dogmatic drawings. Wanted drama. So I brought in wind and the clothes were, you know, windswept to the left and the scarves of tricolore were going to the left and almost like a shoot, really, if you think about, you know, a fashion shoot. That's what the drawings looked like. And it was very unusual at that time. That was your first ever runway show in 1984, which earned you a first-class honours degree. It was very unusual then for shows to have that kind of narrative, wasn't it?

10:09Yes, I think so, yeah. And do you feel that something I've been fascinated by is this, the fact that you were working as a dresser at the National and you were working with actors and you were observing actors on stage, like Dame Judi Dench and Juliet Stevenson. And you would watch... Watching Jarvis, Bill Nighy. I had the great, great opportunities to work with the most amazing actors. Ralph, I mean, yeah. And so, of course, it feels inevitable somehow that some of that love and passion for the theatre would help to strengthen your creativity around a narrative for a fashion show. And when it came to Leon Criable, It was just something unlike anything else.

10:56Very much so. The opportunity, I mean, I worked at the National Theatre at the Littleton and the Olivier Theatre, so got to experience the grand classics, Major Barbara, or a very contemporary piece like Way Upstream by David Hare. So I was able to witness and dress the importance of being earnest, you know, whitening Eton collars in between a matinee in an evening with chalk or shining up top hats with the oil on my hand. So I learned a lot of tricks. And Dame Judy Jansh, you know, space, how these amazing characters command their space, how much that error in between the clothing and the space means.

11:45OK, we're going to take a quick break.

11:51Thank you.

12:21week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

12:35And we're back. This show caused such an enormous storm. It really did at the time. I've been reading about it. I knew about it, but I've been reading more about it. And it is incredible. What happened to you in the hours and days after the show? How did it change your life? Completely. I was consumed. I didn't really think it was that strong because I was just in my world, my bubble. But on the day of the show, I mean, in the running order, I was somewhere 50-something. And suddenly by the third show, second show, I was moved to the finale. So I thought, ooh, this feels good. Then, yes, there was a wonderful lady sitting in the audience, Joan Burstein, who runs a boutique called Browns.

13:29You may have heard of it. And, yeah, the next day I got a call that she would like to see the collection up close. I was penniless at that point. So, you know, me and my mates, we threw the collection on a rail and kind of like rolled it down, you know, Oxford Street into South Malton Street. But she bought the whole collection, didn't she? The whole collection, yeah. And displayed it in the windows. Yeah, and invited me to come down at the weekend. So we did the window together and to just experience, you know, people coming in. And obviously they had, you know, a huge guest list, I suppose, of great buyers and that.

14:09And she wanted me to meet the people that would come by. and it's a green coat. It's not, my paws may be wearing it. And the first coat I sold was that one and my client was Diana Ross. Oh, and that collection was described as being... Didn't go to my head. Well, the collection was described as being revolutionary, incredibly self-assured, very confident, endlessly modern, an idea of the past with modernity's life breathed into it. It was truly extraordinarily received. And that was your launch pad. Yeah, yeah. A time when the designers around, and there was like the amazing Mr. Armani, but he was putting women in men's tailoring.

15:00So you can imagine when this came out, it was fluid, genderless. As I said, inside, upside down, You could wear it so many ways. One size fits all. All those things that I still do today. You could make the components work with each other, couldn't you? Yes, absolutely. It was amazing. So that was your launch pad. And then your career-defining runway show took place in Paris a decade later. Fast forward. Fast forwarding. John Galliano, fall, 1994, ready-to-wear show, held at Sao Schlumberger's Left Bank Hotel Particulaire. This show, wow, what a labour of love. Please will you set the scene for what was happening in fashion at that time, particularly in Paris, and what you felt needed to be shaken up?

15:57I really didn't have those thoughts because four weeks before this collection, I hadn't planned to do a collection. I was penniless with my mates in Paris, sleeping on friends' floors. And Madame Winter, Anna, Anna Winter said, John, you can't miss another season. I said, it was only four weeks ago. What do I do? Like, you can't miss another season. And then suddenly my dear, dear friend, Andre, Andre Leontelli, started kind of picking me up and going to dinners with these amazing society ladies and introducing me to them. And one of the ladies was Serge Lumberger, and he'd asked if we could use this house, which was incredible, incredible, hôtel particulier that she wasn't living in at that moment.

16:47And she agreed. I remember her saying, no such thing as a free lunch, André. So we had a venue, still no collection, no fabric or anything. And then another patron of the arts, Dodie Rosencross, from san francisco um she kind of bankrolled me to be able to buy some fabric it was um satin satin back crepe i used the shiny side the right and the wrong side the shiny and the matte side and did bias cut things so they jigs sort of just to make fabric look like i had more fabric than actually was um so yeah a labor of love and naomi came from london with loads of shoes from manola Manolo Blahnik, Julien Dees came and did the show, Stéphane Marais did the makeup, and she did get out of bed for less than 10 ,000 euros.

17:37And was one of the first ones there at 5am. But you set the scene there too, didn't you? Oh yes, we set the scene, yes. So we wanted it to look like a kind of, you know, some love treat had gone on, a very romantic setting. So we lit the venue from outside, so we had the spots outside shining in, and we hazed it all. So there was haze early morning kind of vibe, thunderous tones in the clouds. Amanda, Amanda Harlick, who I work with, she was running around Paris and collecting all the dead leaves and bin liners, and she came back, and they were putting up a chandelier, and then she said, oh, no, just leave it crashed on the floor.

18:16So fallen chandeliers, higgledy-piggledy, seating, whatever we could get from the markets, really. And then the leaves were all thrown everywhere. And wasn't the seating quite close to the models in a traditional couture style, but they could have an intimate relationship? Absolutely, absolutely. That, I always didn't get why we would have to sit the press apart from the buyers and section A and section B. I always thought that you should, it's like being invited to a dinner party, you know, so I wouldn't section people off like that. I'd put, you know, maybe the quiet ones next to the noisy ones or, so the seating, we did the seating plan as well.

18:55And I think people appreciated that. But the thing that was the most kind of awesome is that all these girls you'd seen in editorial for sure. And you'd seen on huge runway shows, you know, those white, long, kilometres long and high. Here you were seeing Christy, Kate, Naomi, up close. Nadia, Nadia's legs that were like, you could smell the perfume they were wearing. You could hear the rustle of the taffeta on Christie's dress and so on and so on. So I think that's Harry Winston, jury, Cartier. You know, Amanda didn't know that you were only meant to work with one jeweller. So she did the whole of Place de Venteau, shoving all the jewels in a bag.

19:40We even had Princess Josephine's tiara as well. And we were very nonchalant and spontaneous and we were tying them, you know, styling, whatever. And the whole of the top floor was given to, I mean, there must have been like 50 security guards just for the jury. and then these incredibly refined creatures walked down the stairs couldn't have them walking up that would have been too pedestrian walked down and then meanders through the room and then um that was just amazing and it got a an incredible reaction um which meant another phone called to say oh because we were meant to move out and i said oh we're getting calls from buyers etc like could I stay in the house a bit longer?

20:22So it became our office. Because it was a huge success, that show. I mean, when you look back now, at the time, did you have any awareness of what a historic moment it was? No. And for some people, this show is a benchmark as well. Yes. No, I didn't. I didn't. Again, Madam Winter, Anna, She had used the collection prior, and she'd done an amazing spread in American Vogue, shot by Stephen Meisel with the girls. It was pages. And then Andre turns up with this gentleman. I had to meet him at the Bristol Hotel because the orders were coming in and we were taken. I don't know how we're going to produce this.

21:09The collection that Anna had featured, I mean, it didn't even have any stockists. I mean, that's how much she believed in it. so I went with Andre to the Bristol and we met a guy called John Bolt who was the president of Payne Webber Banking and he very quickly came down and we were showing him the orders we were getting and that's where he then became my first financier and enabled the first studio in the Bastille in um but it was wonderful because Andre pulled out the Vogue and she said this is what American Vogue think of John what are you going to do about it major how does how does it feel looking back on that now.

21:46Just a dream. The whole thing's a dream. You pulled the rabbit out of the hat. I can't believe. I was just sitting outside just pondering and watching you guys turning off on your bikes and parking the bikes and the plants and cactus. And I just got quite emotional because I know how it feels. But you know, don't listen to anyone. God is inside you. You're the ones that will make this happen. Don't have any doubts. Don't listen to anyone. realize your dream.

22:26More with John Galliano and Gwendolyn Christie after the break.

22:37Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co-host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

23:13We now move to your spring-summer 1995 ready-to-wear, The Pin-Up Show. Oh, The Pin-Up Show, right. I love this show. And I first became aware of you, I think, through fashion history and, of course, through the black collection, which we just looked at. And this collection seemed to just reverberate through everything. It made fashion become electrified in a way in which we hadn't seen for so long because it was just totally fabulous on every level. The mastery of the technique, the imagination, the world you created, the music, the makeup, the hair, everything about it. And of course, I remember very strongly Linda Evangelista's traffic stopping look of where she came in wearing that extraordinary.

24:22The yellow canary. Oh, the yellow canary. That's beautiful, beautiful. She slept with that dress. I gave it to her. She was obsessed with it, and she had it on a stockman at the end of her bed, and she slept with it for years and years and years. And then it started to get a bit flea-bent, and so she gave it to the Met to look after. But it's one of her favourite dresses, yeah. Yeah, I remember reading that and thinking just how impactful that moment must have been, because the show was quite wild. I mean, there was a huge audience for it, wasn't there? Yeah, this was, yeah, the stars got bigger that were turning up, you know, and of course there was, you know, Steve Meisel and Madonna in the front row, Baltus, the artist, turned up with his wife, Setsuko.

25:10It was an amazing moment. He kind of started the show because there was so much noise and we weren't the most together for our seating plans and stuff like that. And it was studio pinout, which means that you had to send the girls down one by one by lift. Can you imagine how long that took? Until they worked their way around. And I remember Balthus walking in with the hair slip, that white, silver-grey kimono with his silver... And he stamped on the ground. And he was like, right, let's start the show. Very dramatic, very dramatic. And then the girls meandered around. You know, they had their characters.

25:46They knew who they were. They'd done their fittings. And I remember Linda's face, because Linda was a little bit down the line-up, if you like. And she could see that each girl was taking her move or her space to make a shape. You know what I mean? This one had taken the car, and she was like, can't do that. This one had taken this, the other one had taken that. The other one had put her hand in the bath, water. And I remember her, like, walking down with Trepid. You could see that, but it came. It came to her at the last minute, and I saw her on the monitors downstairs, so she came down and Verna, the lift door's open, she came in.

26:22And she remembered that I said, just make sure that all the tool goes in everyone's faces. So she kind of did that really gracefully. And then I remember her looking at Stephen and Stephen looked at the bed. No one had dared the bed yet. And she did. She threw herself on the bed and the whole skirt went up. And that was the picture that kind of made history. And the cover of Bazaar, I think. Yes, from that moment. What was your inspiration for that show? Because I remember seeing, you know, this is before the internet. So I would stare at these tiny images or larger images in magazines. And for me, just the clothes spoke so loudly.

27:04It felt very close to couture, what you were doing. The line was very strong. What were you feeling? What was your influence? I think Monsieur Serre was one of the muses that greatly inspired me. I'm following her through the ages so you'll see my Sophie in a more languid kind of circular cut kimono and then going right through the 40s and 50s and and the work of mr. Penn I'm obsessed with mr. Penn so really that was the inspiration and the the the the couture was quite literal because I was kind of learning I mean I've been obsessed with her clothes look inside out that they should be as beautiful inside out with the bias in particular um so really that's that's what this one was about and the joy of dressing if you like the joy of dressing and and by this time i had my team you know the collaborators the the julian the stephan amanda worked on this show um it's quite dangerous show this one and we did things that you're not allowed to do today i mean It was totally overpacked.

28:15There was light bulb was hanging in the bath, the water, because I thought the light was really pretty. And I drove a car in, you know, full of gasoline, people smoking. It was insane what we got away with. You can't do any of that. And a lift, sending the girls up and down in a lift. But there was such power in it. I've been fascinated by, you know, I've heard tale of your research books for years and seen some pictures of them. And I was lucky enough to see one. One just came up online. And reading about the incredible process behind your next appointment when you were appointed creative director of the House of Dior.

29:05Yes, yes. And the process you went through there to create the Dior Couture Spring-Summer 1997 collection. What's your lasting memory of this show? Of this show and a bit before as well, because I mean, I got the Richard Simonon, who was the PDF of Givenchy, who said, John, you've got Mr. Arnaud wants to see you. and I thought, shit, I've really fucked up a Juventus. I don't know what's going on. It was Friday afternoon. No one asked for an appointment in Paris on Friday afternoon. They all piss off to the countryside, the bourgeois families. I said, yeah, my dreads were falling out. I had bad nail, bad colour.