How The Viral ‘Protect the Dolls’ and ‘Promote Homosexuality’ T-shirts Were Made

0:28This is The Run Through. I'm Chloe Mao. wore it. And Troye Sivan wore it to perform with Charlie XCX at Coachella. It has raised a ton of money for Trans Lifeline, a nonprofit providing crisis support for transgender individuals, which is amazing and very needed at this political moment. And Willie Norris famously made a shirt a few years ago that said, promote homosexuality, which also took the world by storm. I actually went to my friend Catherine's wedding, Catherine Bernard, who Chomenos used to work at Vogue with us. And she and her wife are friends with Willie. And so Willie had Promote Homosexuality t-shirts for people at the wedding.

1:08And it was in blazing on everything. I love that. Which was perfect in Greenwich, Connecticut. Jose, Willie and Connor also discussed the state of pride fashion, the rainbow washing, as our colleague Christian Allaire called it in a recent story for Vogue.com of corporate clothing brands during Pride Month. And I really can't wait for everyone to listen to this convo. I thought it was really interesting because I feel like there's two conversations that have been happening for me culturally. It's like the very insider in the Vogue office of a lot of the Vogue gays are like, we don't need Pride fashion.

1:46It's too corporate. Stop trying to use Pride Month to sort of push forward corporate agendas and marketing. But then outside of that, I'm seeing we're all seeing such rollbacks on DEI. And we've even heard from our commercial partners like brands are not putting money behind Pride Month anymore. They're just not focusing on it. I went to Target in Virginia when I was visiting my in-laws and they've completely taken away their pride aisle. My mother-in-law, who's a very spunky lady, started going up to all the salespeople and asking, where's your pride aisle this year? So that was interesting for everyone.

2:26But anyway, so I feel like this conversation was something that we had really been percolating in the office. And I'm excited for everyone to hear what the three of them had to say. Same. I'm so excited for this conversation. Connor actually won the BFC Vogue Designer Fund this year. And he was talking about how that T-shirt has raised almost a million dollars. And I think he mentions it in the interview. And I think, you know, here's this young designer who's establishing a business. And now he's like virtually like running a nonprofit on the side. So, I mean, obviously he's super happy about it.

3:03But it's so encouraging to see people actually taking action and it catching a fire because we need to keep like we need to get the pressure on, especially with all these DEI rollbacks.

3:20so before we get into our conversation let's talk about the headlines so honestly i this is the best news to happen today waking up to to the news that zoran mandami is the actual democratic mayoral like candidate look people feel very strongly about zoran people feel very strongly that they don't like him. But many people, as we learned yesterday, feel very strongly that they do like him. What I will say is whatever you feel, it is incredible that he won just as a feat of a spectacular campaign. He's just the most telegenic young politician. I feel like there's sort of a freeze-on of like Obama.

4:05Definitely everyone compares him to AOC, which I feel like is sort of superficial. But I think that he really captivated people. And it is exciting. Whether you like him or not or excited about what he stands for or not, there's an undeniable draw to what he's accomplished. And I have to say, Emma Spector covered a fundraiser in Brooklyn that was sort of a, you know, creative class intelligentsia like Alison Roman and Sarah Sophie Flicker. And it was a fun piece about how Zoran had sort of captivated the what I'll lovingly call the Brooklyn Bobos, the bourgeois bohème, which is like what French people call sort of like fancy bohemians.

4:46But it's true that he really galvanized people in a way we haven't seen in a long time. And Emma wrote a really fun piece and interview with him about that actually the night of our pre-med party. And Dean Majid, who is a photographer who we like working with, took great photos of him. And very excitingly, our guest Sarita Chowdhury, a couple of weeks ago, our beloved Seema from And Just Like That, she was in Zoran's mom, Meera Nair's first film. No way. Yes, Mississippi Masala. Oh my God, of course. I didn't make the connection. And she used to babysit Zoran. So that is very cute. Small world.

5:25I know. But Choma, what are you seeing? How is the news trickling through in Europe? I didn't personally see it coming because obviously it's different when you're when you're far away and and when I heard that Bill Clinton had endorsed Andrew Cuomo I sort of felt like well the winds are going that way for someone so major to endorse Cuomo even though personally it felt a bit retrograde to go back to Andrew Cuomo after all this time um but yeah so so happy to see this kind of bubbling up from afar I think we need some good political news because god knows geopolitics at the moment is a dumpster fire.

6:03So enough said on that. Choma, tell me what you are hearing across the channel in Paris for Men's Fashion Week. Yeah, I mean, it felt like the Louis Vuitton show made a huge splash. There was a show at the Pompidou Center, which is one of my favorite art institutions in Paris and such an iconic building. Which is about to close for a huge renovation. So that's probably why. Yeah, it was a big coup for them to get that space. And the collection itself took cues from India. So there were references to cricket. And I think the runway had Snakes and Ladders, which is originally a game from India. I didn't know that.

6:45Yeah. And the clothes had that sort of laid back. There was some linen tailoring, stuff that you would imagine in kind of hot and humid weather. it made sense, I think, for the references were really subtle. But I think obviously, Pharrell was thinking about how you take a wardrobe on the road. The brand is associated with traveling, you know, trunks are the signature. So that was definitely in the back of his mind. And as usual, the front row was major, more major than usual. It was so funny to see two things coming through my social media feed at once. You had the show in Paris of, Beyonce's show in Paris, and Olivier Restain was there celebrating and so happy to see his designs on the stage.

7:34And then you saw Beyonce sachet into the show in all her cowboy car glory, dressed in the Louis Vuitton flares, fully cowboyed out. And she just looked incredible. And I think that conversation about the album, I don't know whether it's something that had been percolating some seasons ago when Pharrell did his first collection that was sort of a tip to cowboy culture. But it does feel like maybe they were in conversation about this idea of cowboy and that kind of iconic American cultural reference. So it was cool to see. Good call. I forgot that they sort of were in lockstep on that and kind of got that rolling together.

8:18They did, didn't they? And so it was a kind of a full circle moment in a way. And J.C. was there looking amazing at his wife's side, too, which was fab. And it just looked like a beautiful kind of show a night in Paris. But, you know, we're all also eagerly awaiting, I guess everybody is really waiting with bated breath to see what Jonathan Anderson does for his first collection at Dior. Everybody has been posting about the Dior invite, which is this ceramic plate with three eggs on it, which looks incredible. It's just very much a collectible piece. And it's very in keeping with Jonathan Anderson's sort of cerebral and surrealist references.

9:03and I think it's very chic to have an invite that you can actually keep. I think our colleague Hamish Bowles does collect invites and over the years there have been some beautiful ones I think we've talked about on this pod, but this one definitely seemed to be taking it to a whole new level where you have a collectible objet d 'art to take home with you before you've even gone to the show. So it will be very interesting to see what he shows on Friday. It's rare that there's such anticipation and such savvy snowball of rolling out little Easter eggs, speaking of eggs, for what is to come. You know, he had released a couple of images on the Close Friends feature on Instagram of Basquiat and Lee Radziwill and the iconic sort of Dior woven tote, book tote.

9:55He released images of new ones, Bram Stoker's Dracula and Lady Chatterley's Lover. So we were talking yesterday, like, what other books would you like to see on those totes? But I think it's been really savvy the way he's done it. And it'll be a big moment on Friday. Totally. And I mean, there are a couple of other debuts on the horizon. Julian Klausner will also be debuting his collection with Frise Van Nouten. And then Michael Ryder, another much eagerly awaited debut with Celine. and I'll be going in for that show, which is next Sunday, I think July 6th. I'm super excited about that. Obviously, we always look forward to Willie's show, Willie Shavaria.

10:39So I think it's shaping up to be a really sort of fun, fun men's week so far. Yeah, we had Rick Owens on this week. Nicole chatted with him about his career retrospective, Rick Owens' Temple of Love, which opens in Paris on June 29th and documents his career from his very first show in 2002. And timed to the new exhibition, he will obviously also have his menswear show. So Choma, go check out the exhibition when you're in Paris. I know. I can't wait. Sally Singer actually wrote the piece, who is my former boss and dear friend, and it's fabulous. She wrote the piece for the magazine on the exhibit and it sounds incredible.

11:19I'm excited to read it. Choma, you know what else is happening on Friday? I think I have a clue. The Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez wedding on the canals of Venice is a very exciting weekend event. Guests have already started arriving. And I think that we will be all eyes trained on the Rialto Bridge this weekend, seeing who is getting out of a gondola and what they're wearing. Yeah, I'll be curious. I'll be curious to see what she'll wear. You know, I wonder, since she's in Italy, if she'll allot for Italian house. Dolce would obviously be something that she's worn in the past, but she could also go with Oscar de la Renta and make it more of an American in Italy affair.

12:04Who knows? Elise Taylor did a good piece on their wedding planners, Lanza and Bucina, who are sort of the most effete, chicest wedding planners in Europe. One of the things Elise talks about is how they typically, for prospective couples, build in a warehouse a mock version of the wedding. And in some cases that can include sand for a wedding in Sand Tropez. And so they completely create what the wedding will look like, the tablescapes, the cabana setup, the couches, the aisle. And I think that is absolutely wild. So read all about that on Vogue.com. So you know what else is happening this weekend?

12:49What? Glastonbury. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. It's like the office has virtually cleared out because so many of our team are going to Glastonbury. I went to a couple of concerts. I am not going to Glastonbury. I still don't know if I can break my Glastonbury virginity at this point. But I did run into Cara Delevingne and Ado Aboa at the Little Sims concert, which took place over the weekend. And they were both really excited. They're regulars and they're going. And everyone was talking about the fact that Dochi will be performing and Ray and Neil Young. I mean, the lineup is pretty major. And I think it's just like a it's more than a festival.

13:30It's like a... It's a lifestyle. Yeah, it's a lifestyle. But I did see Dua Lipa at Wembley Stadium. Oh my God, I saw your Instagram. It looked amazing. She brought out Charli XCX, which was super fun. And she's just on fire right now. I think she just, she's really, really at peak. And it was so fabulous. And to see her perform in front of such a big local audience, I think it made her very emotional. She was very in her feelings and it was very cute. She songs some songs that she let from the very beginning of her career. And it's a real beautiful moment. And I ran into Martine Rosa at the Dua Lipa concert with her daughter.

14:09Fun. Who is also a Dua Lipa fan. And yeah, we took the subway home together. It was really cute to see them. Aww. We'll be back in just a moment with Connor, Willie and Jose.

14:55Thank you. You need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

15:14Hi. Hey, girls. How are we? What's up? Welcome to the run through. I'm so happy to have you here. As, you know, I sort of mentioned to you separately, we've been thinking a lot about pride you know it is june it is pride month famously but we've mostly been thinking about the intersection of fashion and pride and i think something we've been seeing especially this year and but over the past two or three years is that pride as this sort of like corporate activation has changed quite a bit you know when i first moved to the u.s around 10 years ago you would go to target and it was like an explosion of rainbows And it was kind of weird, kind of funny, but it also felt a little great.

15:54You know, it was like cute. And then now a lot of that has changed. Most corporate brands have sort of stepped away from the idea of Pride. But what's really interesting is that something I've noticed is that a lot of my friends who are part of the LGBTQ plus community within fashion are not necessarily engaging with Pride directly, but because they engage with it as a concept, as an experience all year long. Right. Like you don't need to sort of like drop a t-shirt, drop a collaboration, drop a whatever in June just to sort of partake or to be a part of your community or to activate the community.

16:28You can just be. And I think you two are really interesting examples of what that looks like. Actually, famously, because of two t-shirts. So I am wearing one of them. You know, Conor, you created this t-shirt earlier this year, Protect the Dolls, which we've seen everywhere from Troye Zaman and Coachella to you on your very own runway. Addison Rae wore it. Pedro Pascal has worn it. Hyder Ackerman, designer designer, has worn it. Like some, I think, you know, the list sort of like goes on. and Willie I will never forget when you dropped the promote homosexuality t-shirt that sort of became this cultural sensation I think not just in New York but in general but specifically within the community where like everyone wanted this but I'm just curious now that we've sort of set some context for the divas how do you all sort of see this concept of pride fashion within your careers out also, but also as designers and as queer people yourselves?

17:31I was thinking a lot about this just when you, you know, shared the brief and stuff. The first thing I started thinking of was just kind of the conversations that I've had with my queer friends around, I guess, the context of Pride Month. And I feel like you kind of established this already where it's really nice to be seen and acknowledged. but simultaneously, you know, that experience that you're like walking into Target and seeing like, I don't know, like a peace sign with like, you know, a rainbow flag on it. And it says something like terrible, you know, and you're like, work, okay, you know, love the effort.

18:17But like, I don't identify with that. And I feel like that critique was mainly coming from queer people, You know, and like, I think even the other day, it was like someone walking through a Target and it was like, like Les and then a B and then N. So like, that was their idea of like, I was like pride merch. This is like what we're going to do. This is our novel thing and stuff. So I guess, you know, the disconnect there always felt very palpable. And I feel like it's something as well that you just maybe become accustomed to as a queer person. You know, where like even just that feeling of being seen is sometimes fraught, I guess, in a way.

19:04That I think to me, you know, maybe just the redialing of it this year, while, you know, it might have been influenced by kind of political movements of, you know, the last year, things like that. Maybe it's also a depiction of like the root cause of this or maybe the issues with this as well. going back to that question almost of like our, is it beneficial to be thinking of corporations as almost like our friends, you know, or like do we need that acknowledgement from Target? You know, can we maybe seek that acknowledgement in, you know, the communities that we find ourselves in? You know, can we do that through, I don't know, other forms of education that maybe starts to like break down those walls in maybe more meaningful ways I mean I'm saying this all ironically because here I am like doing a t-shirt that kind of fits into the same mold of that but I mean there was even a reluctance there I don't know like if Willie you felt the same way but like I felt like a lot of the conversations I had was just like you know around this concept of like the t-shirt economy you know and like that it's so great that you can sell these t-shirts promote that money to a cause but it you know So it'd be so nice if that extended to something that, you know, maybe was like a little bit more direct, meaningful action and stuff.

20:31And maybe that becomes the next step with these kind of movements. Right. I mean, I think, you know, what's really interesting and sort of this further set some context before we give Willie the floor. Conor's Protect the Dolls t-shirt that walked on his runway earlier this year has sort of become this phenomenon. But it's also actually, you know, after it walked the runway, after it went viral, after people started asking about it, Conor decided to sell it. And the proceeds go to Trans Lifeline, which is an organization started by trans people to protect trans people. And, you know, DOL is, for everyone listening that is not necessarily aware, DOL is a colloquialism that started in the ballroom community in the U.S.

21:13to refer to trans women. It's a term of endearment that has sort of expanded throughout the community, has reverberated in the community. And now has also even similarly to other words that queer people use, like twink, for instance, has gone outside of the community and in so many ways lost some of its meaning. Right. Which is also interesting on itself. But, you know, I'm curious, Willie, based on all of this that Connor was talking about, this idea of like, you know, do we need to be seen by a corporation? Like, do we need a Pride logo to sort of feel seen? I sometimes go two ways about this, where like, maybe we don't, right?

21:51Like, we live in London, in New York. We're sort of like very lucky to be surrounded by people like us consistently and constantly and at all times, right? But there are people that perhaps sort of really do benefit from the idea of just knowing that there is a rainbow out there for them to find it, you know? Exactly. Okay, so I think that in general, I think we're like spinning into butter a little bit. If we start to use corporate or business or any kind of anything related to representation as it relates to the bottom line of a company, if we start seeing like kind of corporate co-signing as a metric of like value.

22:41it's really sinister territory that we get that we that we get into um and so like i think that we should expect absolutely nothing from corporations is is the truth because it's just not setting ourselves up for fishing you know you know it's not it's not we're not teaching ourselves how to how to how to fish we're just like eating the fish there's a part of kind of this corporate pride collaborations i mean i've done them before that i'm really grateful for because they give people money and that is really of corporate pride for me it's actually an exchange yes yes and and yeah well and fairly and without making it a money in exchange for like charity really you know because sometimes that's that's how it can kind of you know be like perceived right absolutely yeah you come to the new yorker radio hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really want to hear from whether it's bruce springsteen or quest love or olivia rodrigo liz cheney or the godfather of artificial intelligence jeffrey hinton or some of my extraordinarily well-informed colleagues at The New Yorker.

24:04So join us every week on The New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

24:12I'm curious to sort of going back to the concept of the t-shirt, right? Like the sort of the t-shirt as a statement. I'd love to actually start with promote homosexuality, Willie, because I, again, like I remember that was sort of like a moment where it felt like everyone had this t-shirt, Everyone wanted to have this T-shirt. Everyone made a knockoffs of this T-shirt. Like I remember even you posting some of them because some of them were actually quite funny. Oh yeah, so good. You know, like some of them, yeah, were actually really funny. It was really funny in so many ways, right? But I'm curious, like what's kind of the inception of that project, right?

24:46That was part of Willy Norrie's workshop, which was your sort of like eponymous label. The purpose of it was to, you know, wear a slogan to a gay party and get laid from the t-shirt and truly signal what I was trying to put out in the world. That is how deep it is and was and will be forever. It's whenever, from my end, however it gets out in the world and it begins to kind of get layers of meaning and on top of it is so fab, but that's entirely like not my job like that like that is that's the magic of kind of putting a product into the world is that it's a little bit out of your hands once it's out there and then I wore it out and then people liked it and I was like oh so I guess other people like want to say that they like promote homosexuality to whatever that means uh and made a bunch and there's just something but it just it's it's very similar to what happened with Connor's shirt is that it It just was at the right, it just aligned.

25:58Everything was in congruence with a moment in the air. The right person saw it. The right person told their right friend who saw it. And it's hard to disagree with. And if you disagree with it, then, okay, well, then you just showed your ass. Right, exactly. That says more about you than it does about me, which is really interesting. Connor, you sort of told me this story when I interviewed you about it in April back, you know, it just feels like forever ago. But what was kind of the inception? I know, girl, so many lives. But what was that moment, like the genesis of Protect the Dolls? Because I remember similarly, perhaps to Willie, like you weren't sort of making this t-shirt as like, hey, I'm going to change the world or like every celebrity is going to wear this.

26:41You were making something for you to wear at the end of your show. Everything that Willie just said was like pretty much the same experience that I had where like the thought process of it was maybe something to kind of serve my own, you know narrative in my head that was never a thought with it where we were kind of like oh and this is going to be a huge thing and we're going to turn it into this thing and we're going to do this we're going to do that i think it was really just i mean even the initial conception of it was like i was in fittings hunter peiffer who opened our show that season you know just kind of like shooting the shit ultimately and just kind of being like oh my god this world is doomed and And also just kind of like lamenting on the idea of like, oh, well, you know, might as well put it on a t-shirt or something, you know, saying that in like kind of a facetious way.

27:28But then having no idea of like what would come of that. I remember even like my boyfriend and I like going to bed the night before the show. Like, I mean, not really going to bed. It was like four in the morning. We were like, OK, we'll take like a 15 minute nap. Sitting down. Yeah, exactly. And really kind of like even us kind of weighing, I guess, the eventual responsibility that would come with, you know, putting a slogan like that out there. And I mean, he was kind of playing devil's advocate in the way of just like, I hope you kind of know like what this could potentially bring or something.

28:10So there was some maybe like indications of like, well, in a best case scenario, you know, we'll, I don't know, sell like two or three hundred of the like that was like best case scenario in my head back then. And then it turns into something totally different. But all of that being fostered by the community itself, whether it's like actual, you know, LGBT people or allies, that was kind of what made it into something else, which I think speaks to the power of that community and is further kind of reasoning for, you know, the sentiment itself. right i have really enjoyed um i'm not sure if you've seen her but star amarasu she's fab she she's a real in my mind she's a she's a movie star like she's she's really one of one of the most talented people on instagram um and you know she she has done put had a spin on the shirt she has she i've seen i've seen her wear two i've seen her wear one that says you know um connect the dolls to their dreams yeah and um she also was wearing one today that said protect the bricks and i i think i think for me when i saw that that made me that made like the original shirt um like almost more powerful in a way yeah exactly because it was a kind of one plus one equals three scenario a brick is it is it is a colloquial term for a trans woman that doesn't pass oh interesting oop now the light's turning on that's crazy to me it was always like I always saw it as you know a couple years ago I was like oh my god imagine being called a brick that would be the worst thing in the world and now I think it's the most beautiful thing in the world and I think there is such power to saying protect the bricks protect the dolls who don't you know who aren't the feminist who aren't the fempleans who aren't the supermodel yeah and yeah I think I think bricks are sexy as hell I love that.

30:10And I, yeah. We love breaks in so many contexts. There is such impact to items like the ones you both made, because in so many ways, they're made by us for us in a way. All of these questions that I think become really interesting and become sort of like a wider conversation about, you know, how fashion and pride, not pride as like a parade that happens every year in New York, but pride as like, or, you know, so many cities in the world. but pride as a feeling kind of exists right like coexist together um i think that's what's really interesting to me right like i think it has a much wider impact especially in the on the age of the internet um as opposed to like a charcuterie word that says like slay exclamation mark right which like totally but like you know what i mean i think there's like um there's there's more to learn from um as logan or the questioning off by some like person on twitter who doesn't have a profile picture uh yeah then you know like a rainbow of it all the pride platter at applebee's or like i mean i don't know because like yeah yeah exactly exactly and i think you know it's well it's interesting because like i think you know we we're like around all we're around the same age the three of us and it's really interesting because we grew up in like the age of representation matters right like where totally quote-unquote representation was enough like oh my god there's like someone gay in this one show and they're hitting in the background work i guess i'm seeing yeah you know we're we're question that to the point where now we're having all these conversations yeah i think it like just boils down to like okay like you can you can wear you can wear a t-shirt that says something on it like it's okay like you know like right it Like it's fine.