How Virgil Abloh Changed The Conversation Around Fashion

0:05This is The Run Through. I'm Nicole Phelps. I'm joined today in the studio by my colleague Leah Faye Cooper, Vogue.com's digital style director, and Robin Gavan, who is senior critic at large at The Washington Post. She's the first ever fashion writer to win a Pulitzer Prize for criticism, and she has a brand new book out called Make It Ours, Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh. Welcome, Robin. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here, Leah. Thank you for having me. Robin, you and I have known each other for a long time. Yes, we have. I've read your book about the Battle of Versailles.

0:40You've also written a book about Michelle Obama. Why did you want to write this about Virgil Abloh? Well, if you, and I'm sure you did, read some of my criticism of Virgil when he was, most of when he was designing women's wear for Off-White, I was pretty critical. And, you know, there were definitely moments when I just did not think that his work for women like made sense in sort of the broader fashion context. But at the same time, I was really just kind of dismayed about the way that people responded to him. And his fans and his customers felt this intimacy that I thought was unlike the relationship that other designers had with their customers.

1:31And it was really that tension. After he passed away, I thought it would be really interesting to explore like what I was seeing as a critic and how I was responding simply to the clothes and how this whole other community of people was responding to the clothes and the fact that he made them. Talk a little bit more about that response. Yeah. I mean, when he died, I mean, it was shocking for the industry because he was only 41 years old and people really didn't know that he had been as ill as he was. And when he died, there was just this outpouring and not just a sort of, oh, my gosh, he's so young.

2:19I mean, people were referring to him in these incredibly, to my mind at the time, really sort of inflated terms. And I remember when he got the job at Vuitton and people were responding like it was an actual sort of civil rights victory. And I thought, OK, I know it's a big brand and I know it's a big job, but really? And so I wanted to dig into that because it clearly meant something on so many levels far beyond just here's a guy who got a big job at a well-known fashion house. Yeah. And he did have such like a wildly untraditional trajectory to Louis Vuitton. And so what do you – An understatement.

3:10Yeah. Like, you know, he didn't go to design school. Like he didn't have a traditional apprenticeship. So what do you kind of attribute that appointment to? How did he get there? Well, you know, it was, I think, a combination of a lot of things that just sort of tilled the ground. I think that's the correct agricultural term, tilling the ground. It was the fact that he had this incredible grasp of social media. It was, you know, a series of designers who certainly came before him, like Oswald Boateng and Edward Buchanan. And, you know, going even farther back, people like Willie Smith. And it was this moment when menswear was ascendant and was really having an impact on the industry at large.

4:01And he really came to fashion through menswear. And then I don't think you can understate the impact that his relationship with the artist formerly known as Kanye West played because that was also this door opening aspect to his early career. Yeah. And you write in the book also about the impact of his personality. Yeah. He was not of the old school fashion designer diva type, right? He was really approachable. He was not a phantom thread kind of designer. I remember meeting him for the first time and, you know, he would open his mouth. And I think you also wrote this in the book. And then, you know, paragraphs later, he would pause for you to say something.

4:55But talk about his personality and how it influenced his success. Yeah, his personality was, well, let me backtrack and say, like, the moment when I really felt like I got a chance to kind of see it was during this conversation that he was having with people who were part of the scholarship group. And they were having sort of a virtual conversation with him. And I had the opportunity to sort of facilitate that and to talk to him beforehand and then to sort of watch his interaction with these students. And there was this incredible transparency about how he got into the industry. There was a transparency about, you know, his insecurities and how he felt when he thought that he was kind of being dismissed by the industry.

5:50And it felt very real and heartfelt. And I think that came through to the students. But I don't think he really hid that when he was engaged with people in the industry. I mean, he was very much a kind of this is what I don't know. And what can you tell me that I don't know that I don't know? So many people talked about how he had such an even temperament that he didn't get angry or visibly angry about things if they didn't go his way, which was very different from the person he was so closely associated with, which was Kanye. And he also just sort of had this ability to take a hurdle and say, okay, I can't get over that, but maybe I can go around it in this way and not be precious, not feel like everything had to be perfect.

6:50What did you learn that surprised you over the course of reporting this book? I'd love to hear how you did the work of writing it, too, and all of the interviews and the research. Yeah. So one of the first interviews that I did was actually with Michael Burke. Who was his champion at LVMH, correct? Yes, exactly. And who had agreed to let him come and be an intern at Fendi when he was running Fendi. And it was kind of an odd moment to talk to him because it was almost as if I was – that was sort of near the end of the story as opposed to the beginning. But it was helpful because – so the way in which Michael Burke talked about getting to know him I thought was really instructive.

7:41Because he's set this scene of being in Tokyo and first meeting Virgil in the context of this big event that Fendi was having to introduce this new collection. And Kanye was performing. And the night before, they went to this, they all had dinner. And it was Virgil and Kanye and Nigo and a bunch of sort of young, very cool, extraordinarily cool Japanese kids. And Michael talks about being at this dinner and about how he didn't really say very much because he completely felt like the outsider. Like these were people who were super cool. They knew streetwear. And he was just happy to sort of be in the space and listening.

8:29And he was really struck by Virgil, who was also in the same room and who was cooler than Burke, but didn't feel the need to be the center of attention, that he had this very inviting way about him. And I felt like that scene sort of suggested a lot of different sort of strings that I needed to pull on for the book about streetwear, about sneakers, about community, about the power of all those relationships. relationships. And then there was a lot of just going back and trying to consume Virgil's really prodigious output of talks and speeches and social media. And I did not. There was no way that I could have gotten to it all.

9:24But that was a big part of it. Who were some of the other people who you interviewed? Well, there were people who were sort of in his friend circle of designers like Matthew Williams and Heron Preston and Jerry Lorenzo. And I spoke to his parents in Rockford, Illinois, and some of his teachers at the Illinois Institute of Technology where he studied architecture. I kept it focused on his professional fashion universe. So I didn't go down the rabbit hole into the many avenues of like music and things like that that he worked with. Another book that someone can write about his time as a DJ. Yeah.

10:21And his cover art. Oh, yes. The cover art. There was the one at Pharrell's debut at Vuitton. There was this moment where I was describing, I think it was, I think it must have been like a new clip song that was being played during the show. And it was just like this moment when all of these like past relationships collided in that like one moment on the runway. the fact that like Prusher T had been the inspiration for like the name of Pyrex Vision the fact that he had Pharrell had produced I mean it was just on and on like these layers and layers and layers and I just thought oh my god like these guys are like so caught up in each other's lives let's talk about that a little bit in the book you acknowledge that Virgil didn't dismantle the fashion system, that he didn't invent a new fashion vocabulary.

11:16And as you said earlier, his design input was kind of uneven. What do you see as his major accomplishments and impact on fashion? You know, I feel like, certainly as someone who's written about fashion for a long I feel like he opened up another category in which we should consider, like, the importance of or the success of fashion. And by that, I mean he opened up this category of sort of meaning and whether or not the clothing had meaning for people as a way to connect to a broader community. I mean, I sort of think about a lot of what he did in the context of like sports jerseys. And it's not really about the jersey at all.

12:14It's about the name of the team that's on the jersey. And by wearing that, it allows you to immediately sort of express an affinity to make a connection to people that you have never met. It taps into this sort of sense of who you are and, you know, how you kind of identify. And so much of that is just steeped in the name that's on the jersey. And it's not even so – it's different from, you know, a brand. It's different from seeing Chanel or, you know, Prada on a T-shirt. And I feel like that is an area that fashion hasn't really thought about that much and hasn't really valued that much. And I feel like there's a lot of room to explore that.

13:07And I feel like that's kind of where Virgil opened it up. Well, it raises a question about Off-White, the future of Off-White. Can Off-White be successful without Virgil, do you think? I wish I had that crystal ball. My investment portfolio would be better. I don't know. I really don't. I mean, I feel like in many ways it has become more of a traditional brand. where the focus is on the design and on the way that the clothes look, the silhouettes of the clothes and the color story and all of that. And so in some ways, as a brand, you know, there's part of me that feels like its trajectory aesthetically has been solid.

14:05You know, it has, I think, become a more nuanced and thoughtful brand. But I don't know if it still has the same depth of meaning. And I think those two things can go hand in hand. But in this case, I don't know that they do. It's definitely a badge of cool. I think my son is the happy recipient of the T-shirts that the brand gives away at its shows. And he still, you know, he treasures those. Those are the only T-shirts in his closet that get hung up on a hanger. Everything else gets, you know, smushed into a drawer. So it's definitely a badge of cool. But I think your son's probably a better authority on this than I am.

14:53I'm not a by no means a sneakerhead, but I grew up in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And when those Jordans came out, I was like, oh, I have to have those. And I wear them often, and I feel very cool when I do. Well, you know, I had a little sneaker moment as I was reporting this because I, too, I am not a sneakerhead at all, and I would never even begin to call myself that now. But I was reading a lot and doing a lot of research on sneakers and looking at a lot of sneakers. and I just bought this very cute, I thought, pair of like Nike Cortez sneakers because I thought they looked a little like old school and cute and all that.

15:33And I was walking my dog and this guy looks at my sneakers and he like gives me this nod and goes, yeah, cool sneakers. Right? I had no idea that I needed that validation. No, seriously. What a teenager point to my off-white sneakers. I'm like, wow. I got the validation. I was like, yeah, thank you.

16:01More with Robin Gavon after the break.

16:14Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co-host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

16:50Do you feel that there are designers, when you look around at fashion now, who have inherited, like, the mantle? The title of the book is Make It Ours. Do you see other designers doing that work now? Or is that work still necessary? Is there, like, a before Virgil and an after Virgil time, and maybe the job of designers is different now? Oh, Nicole, that question is so complicated. I think all those things are kind of true. I mean, I wish that there was this great dividing line between before Virgil and after Virgil and after Virgil. The doors flew wide open and everything was, like, better. And I think that the doors opened and then they closed up not tightly.

17:49They're still cracked open, but they're not flung wide. And there's still a lot of work to do. I mean, I think when you look at the wave of new designer appointments and you look at who sits on the boards of the major fashion conglomerates, there's still a lot of work to do. And it's really disheartening because you know that there are these incredibly talented designers of color and women who are out there who are not rising to the top in the way that I think they should be. I thought just, you know, seeing the designers whose work was on the blue carpet at the Met Gala was a reminder, as if we needed a reminder, of the amount of talent that's out there.

18:46Designers who are sort of – you know, I keep mentioning Sergio Hudson because I think he's super talented and I don't know how he managed to dress so many people. I don't know where the man slept. But I just I thought he was such a great example of someone who is, you know, just a terrific designer. His background, his race has nothing to do with the beautiful tailoring that he does. And I'm sure, you know, everyone brings their whole selves to like the table when they're being creative. But I just think like he's so good at what he does and he could be at any house at the very top if that's something that he wanted to do.

19:38And so I feel like, yes, he is definitely making it his. But whether or not the industry is fully open to that is the big question. I think Rachel Scott of Diotima is another designer who deserves recognition in that regard. Yeah, exactly. And it was really great to be able to see so many of them have the spotlight shine in such a bright way. And I just hope that it continues to shine even when the subject matter has nothing to do with identity.

20:21We'll be back with Robin Gavon in a minute

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21:05You're obviously known as this prolific, you know, fashion journalist and critic, but that was not your first beat. You were covering nightlife? I was. Techno? Tell us about this. Were you outside? Were you at the club? Shocking, though, it may be. Yes. My very first job out of grad school, I went to grad school for journalism, was at the Detroit Free Press. And I was in what was then called, like, the entertainment section. And the entertainment section was all of the critics who covered film, popular music, and so on. And I was the only generalist. And so I'm not even quite sure. I don't know how I managed to get a job in that department.

21:48So I'm the general assignment reporter surrounded by all these critics. They were lovely, but I felt like I was kind of getting sort of the backwash of their beats. Like every time I had an idea, I would need to sort of check in. And so I was the youngest person in the department. And on weekends and stuff, I was going out with my friends. and techno was like the music that was pretty much in the clubs. And I remember, I think I sort of got to know like one of the DJs just because I was like, well, you play that song. And I pitched the idea of a profile or something of this DJ and the Free Press said yes.

22:36And I sort of created this mini beat of writing about techno. And unbeknownst to me, just as I sort of started reporting, it was like this little sort of strand of music that was just growing and growing and growing. And I remember interviewing this producer, Derek May, who was one of like the early founding fathers of techno. And it was an excuse to basically say on a Thursday night, well, I got to go to the club. I got to do some reporting. And I would drag my friends with me. I was very popular. Are you still listening to techno music? Not as much. Although a few years ago, I happened to be in Detroit over, I think it was Memorial Day weekend, when the big movement festival happens.

23:30And it's like a big techno extravaganza down on the river. So I felt very OG. I, for some reason, have never put this together. But Detroit has given fashion two of its most important critics, you and Kathy Horan. Kathy Horan worked at the Detroit News. Was that your competition, the Detroit Free Press versus the Detroit News? It was. Yes, it was. Have you ever thought about this? About what's in the water? What does Detroit have to do with luxury fashion? I have no idea. I would say it probably has more to do with the state of the newspaper industry during that time because there were all of these regional newspapers like the Detroit Free Press, the Detroit News, the Chicago Tribune, the Chicago Sun-Times, multiple papers in Texas, in San Francisco, like all over the country.

24:28And they all had someone covering the fashion industry. And they didn't just sort of cover it like where they were. I mean, these, they all went to New York to cover shows. They went to Europe. They covered New York, Milan, London, and Paris. So it was, I don't, yeah, I think it was the time. And also just like fluke. Well, I did, you know, just to respond to what you were saying, I think that the, you know, us New Yorkers and people in California do have a way of writing off the middle states. And we may not be aware of the great amount of wealth that was in that is still in Michigan. There is sort of a way to connect that to the way that fashion, you know, especially 25 years ago or more, was this very exclusive and exclusionary industry.

25:29For sure. And, you know, I think that's something that you have touched on in your writing, talking about fashion and cultural issues. Like, you tell these stories. They're not two separate things, fashion and culture. It's all intertwined. Yeah. I mean, when I started, it felt like fashion was very much this sort of closed-off place. And but even then, I realized that and maybe because, you know, I came to it from like such a distance. I didn't come to it as sort of a fashion expert. I felt like it was absorbing all these aspects of like a broader culture. But I don't think that people really sort of recognized that until the industry started sort of seeping out into the broader universe.

26:26And in so many ways, you know, fashion at its roots is really about inside and outside, about aspiration, about the things that you feel like you can't easily have. and some of that has dissipated over the years and it's not quite, it's not as intense. And I mean, I don't think anyone's walking around going, everyone's not important anymore. But the engine that kind of makes fashion run is still this element of here's this brass ring and you're trying to grab it. Yeah. I'm curious to know if being critical is something that came naturally to you, if there's any times we've had hesitation. I feel like this moment we're in right now in fashion journalism, at least I feel like people are less critical.

27:29At least we're talking about, you know, in journalism. I think people are very critical, like, on social media or, you know, they'll crack jokes on Instagram. but you know you're invited to a designer show you're sitting in the front row you don't love what you see you don't think it's good um yeah I'm just I'm curious to know how you kind of embraced like just being you know critical and calling it like it is so to speak the first time I went to Europe my editor said to me like don't review just report um which was wonderful advice because I needed to report to better understand, well, and even to say better, to understand the industry, to get a sense of context, to have any idea of how one designer's work compared to another designer's work or compared to their work, you know, in previous seasons.

28:27So it was a while before I started critiquing. but and it is it can be really intoxicating right because you don't just get invited to the show I mean now it's a digital invitation but at one point you were getting these beautiful invitations with your name in calligraphy asking for the pleasure of your presence at some event and the invitation is non-transferable Right. So it's just for you. And so there is this sense of intimacy and privilege that's attached to it. But I think you also have to like step back and go like this is a business. And the goal here is to sell to a broad consumer base, broadish consumer base.

29:23And the consumer is inundated with a lot and designers are hopefully saying something that is thoughtful and noteworthy and sort of valuable enough that it makes that item at least vaguely worth its cost. Yeah. Yeah. Noted, made face that anything is really worth that cost, but whatever. So all of those things, I think, remind me that my job is to take this seriously as a business. And in doing so, to me, a criticism is an acknowledgement that what you're doing is important and valuable. If it weren't, it wouldn't be worth the time of even considering it in a thoughtful way. And so I feel like it's an expression of respect that the work is critiqued in a serious way.

30:32And when I say serious, I mean that the critique is based on the work. It's not personal. It's not petty. It's not flippant. It's not dismissive. I mean, I don't think that it's respectful to just, like, hop on social media and, like, diss something in 15 words or less. Because at least I couldn't explain why I think something wasn't successful in such a brief little sentence. Yeah, but it definitely can be hard because, like, you get to know designers. You get – the more you know about how difficult fashion is, the more you understand how hard it is for anyone to get a collection on a runway.

31:24And so I try to remember that when – if I'm being critical because not just sort of physical energy but a lot of emotional energy went into it. And I know how I feel when I get, you know, a letter from a reader dissing a column. I'm like, I worked hard on that. Great. Yes, it's always a blow. Even if you disagree with them, it's a blow. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to end by asking if you, you know, this idea of criticism, if you were able ever to talk to Virgil about your feelings about his work and, you know, what kind of communication you had about that. You know, I would say that, you know, my relationship with him was very much professional, arms distance.

32:17And so I did not talk to him about the criticism. But his response to it was, and I don't know, maybe this was a very Virgil way to do it, It was just sort of, oh, and sometimes she hasn't liked my work, but whatever. And just sort of moved on with it. I mean, I guess the best way to describe it is to say that he recognized that it was part of, this was how the industry worked. And if he was going to be a part of the industry and be successful in the industry, then he was going to have to be okay with that part of it. And he wasn't in it to upend it or turn over any tables. Now, his friend, Kanye, had a different take on it.