How Zac Posen Reinvented Gap

0:06This is The Run Through. I'm Nicole Phelps. Today on the show, I'm joined by Zach Pozen, a designer I've known for 20 years. He has a huge new job at Gap, Inc., which was invented for him by the company's CEO. Zach is involved in almost every aspect of the company, from design and retail to advertising, across its many brands. They include Gap, Banana Republic, Old Navy, and Athleta. He's also designing a collection called Gap Studio, which is arriving in stores in March. Zach joined us in studio in New York City to talk about his big new job, about AI and technology, as well as nostalgia. So here's my conversation with Zach Bozen.

0:49Welcome to Vogue's Run-Through Podcast. Thank you for being here, Zach. Thank you for having me, Nicole. We published a great article about you and what you're doing at Gap last month, and we are here to dig in, dig into everything you're doing there. What an incredible moment to be meeting. We, just for people listening, Nicole and I have a very, very long history as a reviewer and as an editor and as a designer, which is very rare. I think, you know, we even start almost just at the beginning of digital and even pre-digital when there was a different kind of editorial system. and I really feel grateful that I have somebody in the industry that I have grown with in that way and have that rapport with my work from having runways to just showrooms and all the different iterations in between.

1:45So thanks for being on that ride. Yes, at the tents, in Paris, everywhere. People have said the word gap more in the last year since you got there than they did in many, many years prior to your arrival, wouldn't you say? I think we're trending. Well, you're at a major brand. So let's talk about Gap Studio. Okay. Explain the concept for those of us who don't quite know. You have created this brand new collection. Absolutely. So about a year ago, I began my work at Gap Inc. as creative director. And in that role, I work kind of creatively at the helm and overseeing the different brands in all aspects and being a kind of partner to our CEO, Richard Dixon, as we kind of build the brand and bring it back to its glory and reintroduce it to a new audience and create new identities.

2:52for Gap Inc. and for Gap, Old Navy, Banana Republican Athleta. And in that process, you know, really, we had a Met Gala that came up. And it was like, okay, well, that's a really big moment and has been in my career. It was a moment and kind of, A, a place that I had interned and really where I started at 16 under Richard Martin, Harold Kodai, and then in the Irene Lewison library there, vertically filing. At the Costume Institute. At the Costume Institute, yeah. There was no Google search. You really had to, like, search to find, you know, more anonymous things like Giorgio Sant 'Angelo or other great things that I was discovering at the time.

3:42There was an amazing book of Madeline Vionnet being created by Betty Kirk. And so looking at like kind of how these dresses were constructed were very, very formative to me with white gloves holding that bias from underneath and just looking up as if you were looking inside the Eiffel Tower, if you can imagine that, and inside the basement of a museum. Anyhow, so a Met Gala came up and had a conversation, should we take part? The previous Met Gala, I was kindly invited but not allowed to bring a date. And that had been the first time, A, that just as myself I was going and very honored to be there.

4:23But also a strange feeling of that kind of gap year of not being able to create for theme, not obviously being able to afford a ticket at that time to bring somebody, but also even just to make something. The year before I brought Deborah Harry. Fabulous. And that was this own kind of process and creation that actually had to do with upcycled denim that I'd worn driving across the country over COVID and this kind of unraveling of America at the time and kind of on fragile shell. You know, more esoteric than I had been in other pieces, probably also self-reflective and historic and interesting.

5:05Anyhow, Met Gala happens. I think like two days later, I get a call that Annie Hathaway is interested, you know, would love to wear a dress. And when she makes something, would I ever be interested in making it? So, you know, I jumped on the mannequin, draped something up, FaceTimed with her stylist, Erin Walsh. And we kind of started building this piece. And Gap Studio was born. And Gap Studio was born. And that was that. And I think, you know, in a corporate company in this kind of culture, they kind of saw the ability for creativity. And I think they saw a whole new side of me. I wear a lot of different hats.

5:49And I try to apply that kind of creativity of building a gown, of re-sculpting, twerking a white shirt in its simplest form, turning it inside out, which actually Anne did herself. She turned the dress inside out and wore it backwards. Wow. I didn't know that detail. And that went into production. Now you hear it first. The darts were on the inside originally. So as you're making the dress for Anne Hathaway, was the idea already there that this was going to be reproduced and sold for Gap Studio? Or how did the – Well, Richard is an amazing partner. And we kind of as a senior leadership group and Richard at the helm really have reformed kind of ideas to live by and identities, right?

6:40And that's really important as one is building a voice. And what if, why not? And so it's like, well, if we're doing this, let's figure out if we can produce this. And we'd already been in this mindset of how we can kind of break into production cycles. We are not fast fashion, right? And that's an amazing thing about Gap Inc. in general across all of our brands. We have very high standards in terms of our manufacturing, our material, our sourcing. And that's another podcast to go down. It was the what if, why not? And it was kind of understanding the chase, like chase product, trend product, how you can catch it, how quick can we work with our production partners.

7:23We have a legend. We had a legendary production woman at the helm, Michelle Sizemore, who was kind of evolving in her career. And she kind of took it on as this like gift to the company to get this dress produced really quickly and really beautifully. And so, you know, you don't know what's going to happen, right? I just kind of had a sense. And I didn't even know if it was going to get worn. And then it got worn. And it blew up. And it blew up. Well, as you say, Gap Inc. is a very, very big corporation. Different from your days running House of Z. For sure. Talk about what it was like to adapt and sort of get used to your new role.

8:08Well, I really, you know, I did not know what to expect. I had one week to relocate. All the way across the country. All the way across the country. We should know. Yeah, I mean, day one was an onboarding process. To go to Gap, Inc. in San Francisco, it's on the Embarcadero. It's a very beautiful, large building that was built by Gap, Inc. and by the Fishers, the founding family, Don and Doris Fisher, who built Gap, Inc. and then their sons and then a whole history of amazing and interesting, incredible management that have been through here and building the history of Gap and Gap Inc. and the brands.

8:48But day one at Gap Inc., a quick onboarding and then a rush up to like the top floor to the boardroom. And in that boardroom, we started to work. It was a whole long table with people I'd never met. I'm there to represent our creative community and to be the creative brain through the company. But I didn't know what we were doing. And all of a sudden, there was like a whiteboard at the end of this. And we were working on our kind of brand identity of Gap, Inc. So it was kind of – I mean, I was new to this. I didn't know where everybody – some other people were actually kind of new to it, two in different roles.

9:33But it was everybody getting together and kind of forming what we stood for, what we could stand for, who we wanted to be, what that meant in terms of kind of the future mindset of our customer and where we could go. Really big thinking, like architecting the identity. But Gap was underway and there was interesting kind of outside ideas, what ifs, why nots that I could bring to that. Banana Republic had gone through this incredible elevation. There's a new store right on Soho. There's a new store. Please go see it. Amazing. I mean, I live in a lot of it. Nikki, our head of men's, is incredible.

10:16It's a very exciting time for Banana Republic right now. These are brands that I really, really grew up with. I wore Gap. I wore Banana Republic all through junior high and high school. And it feels since around 2000, there's been a, you know, a rush of European, as you say, fast fashion brands that have really taken over, you know, Broadway, the high streets of America, if you could say. It's so cool to see you, you know, grabbing back, grabbing it all back. Yeah, I think it's a thank you. I mean, it's a beginning. Yes. OK, we're going to take a quick break.

11:06Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co-host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

11:49And we're back. I do want to ask you about some larger themes that we're seeing in the industry. So in the Vogue article, you were talking about Anne Hathaway's look, and you said if Weeton can have ballgones that they don't produce on a red carpet in order to sell luggage, why can't Gap have a T-shirt gown on the red carpet but will actually produce it? So this is back to the birth of the design studio. Yes. I think – I don't – for me, it's so – like there are no rules. There are no rules in this. I mean, on the largest scale, look at our world. And then on the smallest scale, you know, important to me and important to those of us who care and in the Vogue world and the other fashionistas and fashion people, these are big things.

12:37But, you know, I've watched so much change. And we're also living in a moment when even our own reality is merging into the virtual digital as a living entity. and people speaking, you know, through chat GBT. You know, you can make movies, you can write. Don't know if you can totally design. I've seen it. I mean, obviously being in San Francisco, I'm spending a lot of time in Silicon Valley and seeing, you know, the latest and greatest. And, you know, they want to get me, you know, not Gap. The tech people want to get me because I have ideas about sacred geometry and lines on the body that I don't think I'm ready to train AI.

13:21No, don't give that stuff away. And it's like the secret sauce stuff where, I mean, I was like, it's instinctual. I don't know. It's proportion. It's form. Do not give that away. But I'm telling you when you say like empowered, sexy, sexy empowered lines and cut that are also helping the construction of the garment on the body, it's not giving me what I know is actually working from a pattern making technical or aesthetic standpoint. But as you say, the fashion industry has changed so much. Yeah. So, I mean, at the highest level, right? I mean, besides the business part of it, which, you know, for those who are listening that are understanding this, like, it's very challenging for designer brands to even make a profit from a business standpoint on the clothing they make.

14:04It is everything that surrounds it. But a lot of brands and most brands, you know, the great European brands, this clothing business of theirs, besides that what you see on the runway never ends up in the store, which is kind of weird. Just the expectation of scale of business has changed. So where the margin comes from or the volume comes from is different. And so, yes, if all of a sudden Louis Vuitton, a bag maker, you know, is the leader on the red carpet, why not the opposite? I really think – and I think from the actors and performers in this like celebrity crazy culture that has grown that I feel like I've kind of been part of.

14:55And I knew it. It's also something I saw coming. I mean, I took hits through my career along the way, putting personalities on my runway to having celebrities or what we called what they called like the new socialites, which were really just kind of the original, you know, kind of the next generation influencers on my runway. I mean, it girls, it girls, the it girls and like and it boys. I mean, I was probably one of the only I guess it was the boys of the month in Vogue magazine. They always did like the girl of the month or the girl of the month, I guess. And I remember early in my career, I was like the boy of the month in all my wacky, fun, experimental, expressive outfits.

15:34But understanding that, but all the hits along the way, I mean, gosh, conversations with women's wear daily and the great Bridget Foley would be like, how can you have this on the runway? You know, sitting at these shows and they're not industry. But it was just like you knew that this was coming. And sometimes you've got to kind of pioneer in that way and hope at least that in the end you're not necessarily going to be recognized for that. And that's OK. But at least it's like reaffirming to trust your gut and instincts on stuff. I feel like you're ahead again. And you are sort of at the leading edge of this trend where we're seeing high fashion designers really moving into a space where they're making clothes for more people than they ever could have before.

16:20I think of Claire Wake Keller, formerly of Chloe and Givenchy. She is now at Uniqlo. So there's a group of you who are exploring this new territory. It's totally new. It's fun. It's very San Francisco. It's frontier land. I mean, for me, it's a real San Francisco going west story. And I mean, for me, you know, people moved west. They found something that humans are actually genetically drawn to, which was gold. That's what brought the, you know, one of the things that brought them there originally historically, right? And then like it kind of, you know, evolved greatly, right? But that rush, the gold rush was there and people came from all over the world from all directions and then built this culture.

17:07And I think that idea of innovation is very much an American kind of Western frontier civilization story of migration of the world, of things that have meaning and power. So, I mean, that's kind of where I was like, sure, like I'll do this crazy thing and partially live. I mean, I'm still a New Yorker. That's never going to change. We do have a Gap headquarters here in New York that I spend, you know, a lot of my time in. Not far from One World Trade. Not far from World Trade Center. Exactly. Which was really surprising for me. Actually, I didn't know that when I took the job. It was kind of downplayed that there was this large headquarter building there.

17:47But that is where— The Odeon is your cafeteria? No, we have a Gapeteria. Oh, excuse me. We have our Gapeteria with our own menu. It is pretty in sync with our menu in San Francisco. If you feel like comfort-y food. What's your favorite order? I usually do the health bowl. I love a bowl. Like a salmon, a brown rice, some greens. And then I'll do like a soup. It depends what the soup is. I mean, for years, I only had chicken soup every day. Not noodles, just chicken soup. I'm like a broth person. And then sometimes I'll have a salad. And then sometimes I love our chocolate chip cookie when I need like, you know, my extra like go-go juice moment.

18:34You know, because it's relentless. I mean sometimes there will be up to like 18 meetings a day, Zooms. I'm running around. You know, it's like they need a Zach Gap tracker in the office. It's really – it's multiple floors. You know, it's building teams. This is teamwork. I represent and this is really important to me in this role that I represent and protect my creative community not only in Gap but within our entire industry and outside of our industry. So a lot – you know, I try to devote a large portion of my time to the explore of the educational department of Gap, Inc., and how that can have even more significance from a corporate company on how we can nurture the next generation of ideas and talent.

19:25How much of that team building translates from what you were doing at your own brand? A lot. I mean, I had to wear a lot of hats in my brand and I knew – or you knew and I knew, not the world knew. There was a lot of sacrifices that came with that. As I said, I'm a hands-on creator. I'd be really happy. Like literally I'd be happy probably living in the Berkshires, Massachusetts or in Pennsylvania where my parents live and like go play with clay in my garden and like material all day and like pass it off. And I don't know, every few years probably like be able to see my friends and touch down and go see good theater and movies.

20:08And I'd be kind of great with that. But I also know that I have a purpose. And so a lot of learnings from being entrepreneurial and being challenged, I think, to bring that to how creators in-house can be unlocked and unleashed to create those ideas, giving those abilities. but also a business head. I mean, I really learned through challenges and successes and hands-on the inner workings of a business, small at scale and how important that is and how that has to be symbiotic if you're going to support yourself off your creativity. Every company, every brand is built in a different creative formula.

20:53And you have to be collaborative in that way and respectful of that. You know, it's a very challenging industry. You are in reaction to the weather and things you can't control.

21:08More with Zach Posen after the break.

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21:48Putting on your weatherman cap for a minute, what do you think is going to happen in fashion in 2025 and going forward? Over the years, I've loved talking to you about fashion big picture. So curious what you're thinking. Well, I don't want to give too many secrets up, but I think there's a few things that I'm seeing that are really coming to fruition. Obviously, I think the greatest kind of change to humanity right now is the new living creature of AI. It's real. How that evolves, how we sell, how we create is huge. how we market everything and i also think that in terms of how we sell and connect to the customer i mean you and i have watched not only the digital transformation of our industry but also direct to consumer from a brand which did not really exist unless you had kind of brick and mortar retail.

22:56So I think that there's going to be a merger with social media, or it's happening. I think we're going to see more brands and designers directly selling through fashion attainment to the consumer. That's what's happening. Speaking of fashion attainment, will we see Gap Studio on the red carpet during awards season? Could be in work right now. Maybe. We'll see. We've had a few moments earlier and hopefully, you know, the right moment, right time. That's how I really also believe about these things. I also believe right now that looking at things that the consumer and the fans and the followers that really drive creators and brands forward are really saturated and really attuned to kind of the marketing rhythm.

23:55Right? I think a lot of the veil has been shed, which is amazing and interesting and draws a lot of people in. But it also like you're showing your cards. You're under the skirt, inside the jacket. It's all those components, right? So it's like it's not hard for a young person who's into fashion and styling it like a mystery for how something happens when just on social media like you can do three clicks and find, oh, that's the celebrity dresser of the PR. And that's like I think sometimes the industry doesn't realize how – How much we're giving away. Giving away and exposed to the magic making of it.

24:31It's real. I mean, it's very, very real. And everybody is a brand in their own way, too. So it kind of changes that. So I think that's just something for people to maybe be aware of, I would say. We need to bring back the mystique a little bit. Yeah, totally. And I think that surprise is there. So I am a very big component of kind of surprise. I also would say – and I mean over COVID, you saw when it was Fashion Week, nothing was really happening here. And I just took Canvas and draped in Central Park. You came to that and this idea that like could Gap Studio work with an artist or a sculptor as like a fabric installation that talks about an element of Gap or one of our brands.

25:21I mean, Banana Republic could be on the red carpet too. You know, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. You know, we also have the new red carpet, you know, which is our sports players. And that's huge. I mean, this is a moment of – we are in the moment of our demigods and of our athletes and people that – and living with somebody who's an athlete and an artist. understanding that dedication, discipline, as well as a life choice of understanding the discipline control to be at the utmost excellence of your body in a sport, which also is so intellectual and mind driven, too. And so like, let's celebrate that in a different way.

26:09And the influence that that has on our consumers in a very active element. I mean, Athleta is amazing. I also, in my own brand, where I'm chief creative officer at Old Navy, am really deeply into our activewear. It's a huge business for us. I'm telling you, gentlemen and ladies, it is some of the best product out there on the market. You captured the New York fashion world's attention very quickly. You were a young guy. I mean— Just 20. Just 20. Do you have nostalgia for those moments at all or? No, I don't have nostalgia for those moments. One of the things that I'm really proud of that we did last year and are doing this year is becoming the kind of key sponsor for the CFDA Vogue Fashion Fund.

27:01I mean my goal since I was young was to give back to other creators. It's essential for me. It's essential for our future. I can be a great mentor to people. I do it to established designers these days. I've been doing it my whole career, just kind of quietly. So finally they let me in because, you know, we could help fund it as well. In recent conversations with Anna, she's been really nostalgic about my runway shows at the Tents. They were events for sure. I wasn't aware. I mean, I knew it was an event, of course. I mean, we had to do big sponsorships to pay for those shows. I mean, I think that's the other thing.

27:38It wasn't like it was like a crazy engine. Like we had to kind of figure out ways to sell fund our runway shows. But that meant the big scale. And we had the big time slot. It was the Thursday 8 o 'clock time slot. And it was prime time. So you put on like the best rock show. I mean, I don't know. I'm 1980. I grew up with Madonna and Michael Jackson and amazing showmen. And I like Jim Henson and George Lucas and Walt Disney and John Galliano and Alex Aaron McQueen and Terry Moogler and Christian Lacroix and Vivian. And I've been lucky to have met some of those designers in the past and in my dreams, the others.

28:26I did meet Jim Henson as a kid in passing at an early version of a Julie Taymor show in an experimental theater world. And that was like my hero. I don't know. and Vincent Minnelli, Cecil Beaton. I mean, I love great imagineers and showmans who help illuminate and bring, you know, things that would seem impossible possible and make the world more colorful and hopefully spark a young creator, a young AI bot into the future. I think you're doing a lot of that at The Gap. Thank you for being here, Zach. Thank you.

29:18That's it for The Run-Through. See you Thursday.