Jenna Lyons’s Entrance Into the Bravo Universe

0:05Happy Thanksgiving. We are going to use the holiday as an opportunity to serve everyone a second helping of our interview with Jenna Lyons. We all really love this conversation. Jenna is so much fun. She's such a great friend of the pod. And we wanted to bring it back for you all, considering that The Real Housewives of New York is back on air and more juicy than ever. There's all these dramas happening that people on staff are very passionate about. And so it is time to bring Jenna back to the fore. And I just loved her telling us what it was like to be on The Real Housewives. Life is a business maven, her love of latex.

0:43I'll never forget the fact that she says she had to lubricate her latex before going out and then couldn't lean on any upholstery. Anyway, enjoy, and we will be back with all new episodes next week.

1:06Right now, in movies, in the opera, even in pop music, divinely inspired women are everywhere. This week on Critics at Large, we make our case. Saints are having a moment. Look, I can spat off any number of cliches, but they're all true. The world is moving faster and faster. Materialism is now reaching every single corner of the globe. It's very hard to say no and to say stop and to say I will do without. And I think that explains some of the modern cultural appeal. I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts on Critics at Large from The New Yorker. Find us every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:50I'm happy to see both of you, but most importantly, congratulations, Shoma, on your new role. Thank you. Well-deserved. It's a really big deal. And also moving back to England. Yeah. You ready for that part? I am. I've been getting tips from other... We just had Zadie Smith on the show, and she was giving me her tips for moving back home. We were swooning. Zadie was so great. But Jenna, we have to talk about the show, which just wrapped. And I have to say I was obsessed with your shoe closet. I mean, you have, I think it's 380 pairs of shoes. But of course, I want to know what the latest purchases are.

2:28So I love the little Prada Batwing shoes. I bought them in black. And then I bought a pair of white ones with flowers. And I might have my eyes on another pair. Oh, my God. I know. And I don't normally do that. But I don't know. Like it's one of those things where once you get obsessed with something, I have a tendency to get a little deeply obsessed. So, yeah, I bought a few pairs of those. But I haven't really bought shoes in a while. Like it's kind of a new thing. I went on hiatus because the pandemic, I didn't go anywhere. Nobody cared what I was wearing on my feet. I know. We all just wore Birkenstocks for three years.

2:59I know. Now we're back to bat wings. Wow. What did you buy? Have you bought anything? It's a good question. Oh, I recently bought another pair of – I'm a big Belgian loafer person. And I just bought a new pair of those. My navy ones, I had like navy suede ones and they'd really seen better days. So I got navy faux lizard ones, which I'm happy with. Just a version of what I had before. With lap piping, which I was very happy about. And Shoma, what was yours? Well, what was mine? You did big shopping this weekend. I did. Shoma's doing new job shopping. I know. I know. I bought a bunch of actually vintage Yoji and Wise.

3:36Somehow it just spoke to me. But I have my eye speaking. Oh, a couple of stores. There was one called Ending Soon, and they have really good sort of 90s vintage, and Laura Kaleggi. They're both like within a few blocks of each other. So I did so much damage in such a short space of time. It was wild. And then I got a foot massage. That was my weekend. I was like, oh, so much shopping. I need my feet. I was hurting. It's very scary of you. I know. It's your cardio. I know. I have my eye on a pair of loafers. Okay. Wales Bonner loafers and they have like little cowrie shells where. Oh, cool. Across the top.

4:13So I'm like, are those going to be my new, is that my new office shoe? Like, so are you going into the office a lot, do you think? Or is this job going to be a little bit more remote? I'm an office girl. I like, I like getting dressed for the office. From what I've heard, people in the UK don't, aren't as religious about going to the office, pandemic or not. So that might be a nice flexibility. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely a four days a week in the office. Do people dress up as much in England? I feel like people don't dress up as much for the office there. It's so, so funny because we were talking to Zadie and she was like, nobody gets dressed up for anything.

4:50And if you can hear, you can get dressed up for everything. And I don't know. I think people are more, I mean, there's a more casual vibe in the UK regardless. But I think it's all about the wrong shoe theory. I think you'll see people who might come in. I hate to pull that out. You TikToker. I'm sorry. But, you know, maybe someone will wear like a really beautiful pair of pleat pants with some sneakers or something. You know, I think that there's more flexibility with breaking the rules. But listen, it's been a long time. So I will report back, guys. You've dipped your toe into the – well, you're not just dipping your toe.

5:24You have a beauty brand now, no? I do. But it was interesting because it's a little bit of solving a problem. It wasn't necessarily because I wanted to like go on fire in terms of beauty. but it was, I was trying to fix something that I was struggling with and, and wanting to have the optionality of, of doing that. It wasn't that I wanted to be that all the time. I can't do it all the time. And there are women who'd like are full beat full on every day, all the time. I'm like, it's overwhelming. I don't even know. Like I'm too lazy. I mean, was it, was it fun sort of solving the problem? I know.

5:57I mean, can you tell us a bit more about your brand? Sure. Um, well I, so I, I mean, I feel like I'm a broken record with this genetic disorder thing. Cause I think everyone, I feel like it's become my calling card and I didn't necessarily want that to be, but because of my genetic disorder, I don't have any eyelashes. And, um, and I noticed so much that I was seeing in, you know, I was watching all those YouTube videos of women doing like 17 layers of contour and Huda beauty. And like after her, you know, 18th layer of like eyeshadow and eyeliner and primer and all this other stuff, then like an eyelash would go on.

6:27And at the same time I was in the offices at J.Crew. So this was when I was sort of incubating the idea and all the women were coming in with eyelash extensions, but they didn't really wear any makeup. And so you've had these kind of two really disparate groups of people, one wanting the full beat and fully like glam, glam, glam. And then these women who were like very natural and just really wanted eyelashes. And when I tried to wear lashes for like red carpet or like photo shoots or anything, they were always just so overwhelming. I couldn't wear any of them. And I had the same experience, you know, particularly different skin tones.

6:59Like it just, there was nothing really, there was no variation. And also like all of the lashes that I could find, they all had a lot of weight to the outside, but if you have down hooded lids or if you're Asian, like it doesn't work. And so it's like, I felt like there was something missing. Somehow I decided it was a good idea for me to start my own business. And now I'm learning how hard it is. That's so cool. I'm sorry. Do we hear Popeye? You hear Popeye. I feel like if there's a dog in the vicinity. Well, I've had issues when I've been recording from home and Lloyd has heard someone in the elevator.

7:35Yeah. And so I, you know, I feel for that. But I have Popeye is my favorite cameo on The Real Housewives. What kind of dog is Popeye? Is he a pincher? What is he? Well, so he is a mix of a Chihuahua and a Prague Terrier. But when you look up a Prague terrier, they look like miniature pinchers. These are the best. Although he is annoying because he doesn't have a doggy door and he wants to go in the mountain. And I also was quite intrigued on the show that he drinks coffee. What? It's a problem, honestly. Thank you, Chloe, for highlighting that. I appreciate you. Well, I mean, I don't know how it started.

8:14I think I left my coffee cup like on some random shoot date on the ground and I had iced coffee and he started drinking it. And now every time I have a mug in my hand or a coffee cup, he whines until I give him some. So I give him a tiny bit because I think coffee's toxic to dogs. He's still alive. So I can't do that. I mean, he still wants it. Coffee and ice cream are her. And I just saw some stupid TikTok thing saying that like those are two of the worst things for dogs. Ice cream and coffee. Yeah, that sounds right. But coffee, ice cream. He's still alive. No, he loves coffee. It's my favorite too.

8:48I'll report back if he's close to death. so Jenna I saw that you went to Paris was it for Paris Fashion Week I went to Paris um with Victoria Beckham uh they asked me to come because we're doing something together and um and I've never you know I've never gone like I don't I think it's so funny to me because everyone to Paris Fashion Week well but imagine like I was always on the design side so there was never any reason like I'm not an editor I was there was never any reason for me to go and no one invite I didn't get invited to those things and I and it's funny because your reaction of like who's never gone.

9:19A lot of people have that same reaction. I've never really had a reason to go. I mean, I would love to go. And I have the best. It was the best experience in my life. And I got to meet Usher. We're so excited about the Super Bowl. Oh, God, me too. You did an amazing Instagram video of what you packed. And we were all very impressed. You packed two gray sweatshirts, It's five button ups, two trousers, a black blazer, a striped shirt and latex. So you don't pack in looks. Then you pack pieces that you know you're going to mix and match. What's your packing strategy? OK, wait. Do you guys pack in looks?

9:58I need to know. I pack in looks. But I think I have a lot more of a kookier. I don't mix. Mostly I pack in pallets. Right. Oh, that's interesting. Pallets I do, too, which is usually what I'll pack in a pallet because it's easier for me. And I don't know how to do looks. And like I get in so much trouble. And everyone's like, what are you wearing? and they like people say, can you show us what you're wearing? I'm like, I have no idea. And I'll usually decide the day of, but you pack in pallets. Okay. With latex ever. Have you ever worn latex, Chloe? I have not. So I want to know about this. Would you?

10:28Honestly, I sweat a lot. So it seems extremely uncomfortable. You should write a story about this, Chloe. About sweating? About no, about what you should never worn latex and try it. Have you worn latex? No, No, I haven't. Yeah, you write a story about it. I mean, I won't lie. Like, you come home and, like, you have created an ecosystem within your own body. And, like, when you unzip it, like... Will you describe for our audio listeners, since it's not visual, what this look was? So I took a Tom Ford cashmere men's suit and three pieces of latex, which I wasn't sure which one I was going to wear.

11:08I had a pencil skirt, a deep V body suit and a turtleneck. And I ended up wearing the like mock neck body suit with the trousers from the suit. And I took the jacket, but I didn't end up wearing it. The problem is when you wear latex, you have to put lube on it because otherwise it doesn't shine. And so then you can't get next to anything. You can't hug anyone. You can't rub up against anything. And you can't sit on like a piece of like upholstered furniture because you will ruin it. So like you're a little bit like a weirdo. like you're walking into the party and like don't touch but social distancing you're the pariah of paris i was the pariah paris exactly i did that headline never happened but thank you chloe for i appreciate that but you know everyone like this comes close to you and then they touch you and they're like oh oh but it's because lube is the only thing that really works and i bought the bodysuit is from ysl and it's so funny because it comes with this beautiful little box of like a tube that's this big um you know maybe like a size of like a an eye dropper tube for your to be enough you have dry eyes and then it comes with one that's like clean um clean and shine and something else deodorized or something and they're like a box is big and meanwhile like i could empty an entire bottle than that i mean there's no you're not using that one and so i had to refill it because the first one i got after i wore it once it was almost empty and so I had to buy it.

12:32Well, this stuff comes in a bin like this. It's literally like a shampoo bottle that you spray on and it's basically lube. So I was like, I'm like a giant sex toy. I think that's better than the pariah that you mean. The pride of Paris.

12:52That's better than the pariah. Where do you buy your gray sweatshirts? oh i mean they're only vintage so my favorite one is um well actually that's not true like my favorite one is when i got at el cosmico which is in marfa and then do you know wardrobe i mean you guys know everything wardrobe i see they have like a short big oversized boxy one that's my other one okay those are the only two i really wear and what about white button downs most of them i have made oh that's such a good oh mate yeah i'm it is the most satisfying thing but you do need help if you ever go this is the most important tip to know if you ever go and have your shorts made if you are particularly if you're a woman ask them to give you like super lightweight or almost no fusible in the collar and cuffs because what because most made to measure is made for men and they need those really stiff collar and cuffs their ties and that's what they're looking for but i don't like that so you have to ask them to remove the fusible or use a really lightweight treco fusible or a so that's an important tip to know that's good to that's good to know do you do you do it in new york or do you go to italy or do you have a preferred no well i started i started doing it when i used to go to hong kong for j crew and scott chang was in the downstairs lobby of the intercontinental hotel which is where we used to stay and so i would go and and do them there and they would turn them around like in three days because you were there but here in new york city you can go it's on 59th street and it takes you know six weeks because it takes them a little bit longer and they have to shift them but the other thing you have to make sure is that you figure out where you want your button to like yeah that's always my issue it's a big issue for women boobs it's like everyone wants their buttons to be in a different place and that's the biggest issue most women have like either the button's too high or too low it you know the that and so when you can actually dial that in and then exactly the length of sleeve you want and you know how you want your collar it's like all that stuff and then you get to pick your monograms so i'm really into it it's fun i'll take you it's so fun okay i'll take you Well, we saw that you think you might have some news.

14:55Big Instagram posts. Hard launch, as the kids say. Oh, God. I think that there is a little bit of a – we were just being happy, and I think there's been a lot of interpretation. We're just very happy. There's nothing – there's no news to announce. Oh, but we're happy that you're happy because we can't think of a more gorgeous and lovely couple. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Yeah. How did you guys meet? oh god i mean years ago i mean we've known each other in the orbit of years ago but you know and you guys know how it is it's like you you kind of cross paths with these people in this industry over time so probably 12 years ago and um and so we've kind of known each other but it wasn't until more recently when you know both of us were available that we actually were able to to um be in a relationship but yeah we've known each other for years and joe i don't think you said It's Cass Bird is who we're talking about.

15:48Friend. Friend of Vogue. Friend of Vogue. Fabulous photographer of all things, but fashion, you know, not principally, but of principal interest to Vogue. Oh, is that Cass? Oh, hi, Cass. Cass. Cass cameo. My ears are burning. Yeah. Sorry. You really led us all on an exciting moment, a real ride with the ring, Feldo. I know. And I am a demologist, and I like really big diamonds, and that's really all. Tell us about your jewelry. We love talking about jewelry. Tell us your gem journey. Yeah. I mean, I want to buy it. I feel like I like to mark when I have a big life change. I like to mark it with a piece of jewelry.

16:40Oh, wait. So I'm sorry, Jenna. And in the next week before Choma moves, you need to take her to get shirts made to measure and to your gemologist. I have a very nice gemologist and I definitely know how to get you shirts made. So I think this is actually a rite of passage and we should do it. And then you'll go to London and you'll be blamed and appointed.

17:01Cass agrees. Yeah. I've taken her to get shirts made. It's an amazing. everyone I've taken after they do it they're like why didn't I because it's only really I don't know why but for some reason it's always been relegated to men which I don't understand but so I'm definitely trying to get all the women I know over I love this what designers are you loving lately it's a good question I mean it's funny I feel like I've gone back in time and the things that I loved I'm deeply deeply excited for Phoebe Filo to come back into the same because I when I look in my closet so many of the pieces that i wear over and over and over again are from her reign at celine and even some of the things from her time at chloe so like i'm so excited i'm on the list i get every email i'm like girl what is happening i have a whole little kitty of money put aside for her so like please come back i know and then like i i really do find myself like god there's so many things i love husband's paris do you know husband's no no no tell us more men's line and it's out of Paris and the Instagram, the way that they approach it, it's like old, like original YSL, like little Cuban heels.

18:14Like it is, if you look at the Instagram, you'll understand why. And I bought a bunch of pieces from them. And the product I find is like, it is kind of what I want Brooks Brothers to be. It's like, there is, it's just simple, just perfect, beautifully made. Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co-host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race.

18:58Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

19:06Jenna, when I think of you, I think of extreme taste. And I love Rachel Tashin's Washington Post piece about this. But this is all a way of leading into, tell us why the Real Housewives. Because it's not the epitome of taste. So a couple of reasons. I mean, first off I had this business, um, the eyelash business, which we talked about a little bit and I, you know, the world has changed. Like it used to be, you would buy an ad in every magazine or you would run a billboard and the, and you were advertising, you get your light, your name out there, but everything has changed. And there's so many, everything is splintered in terms of the way that you gain access to people.

19:50And I wasn't an influencer. I didn't have a huge following. People didn't like some people knew who I was, but a lot of people didn't. And I didn't really jump on the Instagram bandwagon early at all. I was very pulled back. And so like when I started this, we very quickly got picked up by Target, which was amazing. However, what we were finding is that people who were in all of the places that knew me, like we were flying off the shelves in those areas, but in places where people who didn't know who we were, like the product was sitting there. And so they were like, how do you help us? And then completely separately, I had as a joke on a podcast, somebody had asked me if I would ever go on the show?

20:26And I was like, sure. Like, you know, it's a joke. And then 10 months later, Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, okay. So here's the full story is I was on a podcast. They asked me if I ever joined. They're like, they've never had a openly gay housewife. And I was like, great. They posted a picture of me in the lineup with all the other women. And obviously I didn't know they were doing a reboot. So it was not really the real deal, but I reposted it. And then I forwarded it to Andy and I was like, with a smiling laughing face. And he was like, this is actually a good idea. And then 10 months later he called and that was sort of right at the time the target was like, Hey, what can you do?

20:59And you know, I thought about it. I also think like I spent so many years at J crew in my previous life of doing everything by the book and everything I was supposed to do. And I remember I got called into HR once when I was at the Soho house and there was a band playing and everyone was pushing people towards the pool. And I got pushed into the pool in a Balenciaga dress and it ended up in Vanity Fair. And I got called into the principal's office basically saying like, you're the president of a company, you can't do this. So I had spent all this time like being told that I had to fit into this bucket and I couldn't do anything that sat outside of like, you know, being just normal or good.

21:39And so I was like, I actually don't have anyone telling me that anymore. So I was like, I don't have anything to lose really. Like my reputation is like, I'm 55, who the hell cares? I really love that you did it and I just want to know how your life has changed because it does it does seem like it was it was yeah it was meant to be kind of or it was the right moment to do it I mean my life hasn't changed that much honestly I mean other than like very sweetly like people will be like on the street I love you or you know it's it's that it's but other than that not really anything um it's been it's actually been nice I mean yeah my Instagram following has gone up and that's lovely and like for my business and my business has really like seen a massive lift, which has been, which is what I did it for.

22:20And that's been great. But other than that, it hasn't really changed that much. I have a lot of questions. The season ended, obviously you filmed it and then it didn't come out until a long time later. I would assume that's maybe a little bit similar to designing a collection, but not really, right? Cause that's quite immediate. No, it's the exact same thing. I mean, it's so funny that you brought that parallel because I have said the same thing. You design a collection. I mean, we were often a year ahead right and by the time the product that we were working on and was in the store we were on another season I was like everyone's like oh do you want that thing I'm like no I haven't seen that thing in ages and I or you know we would first it would be designed then we would approve and decide it would be on the line then we go into fittings then we'd approve the fitting then we do photo samples and we go photo shoot so by the time it got into the store I'd seen it 100 times I was over it and so it's like I'm like done and on to the next thing and into the next season and that's very similar.

23:12Like, I think I'm a little bit different than maybe the other cast members, because they had never, they've never really experienced this level of like attention. And in the moment experience, I'm like, literally couldn't, I'm sort of over it. Okay. But then what was it like seeing the edit? Because I know, I mean, it's sort of like someone writing an article about you and then you read it and like, oh, well that was taken out of context. Were you upset by it or you were able to sort of separate? I think both. And I think you're, I think again, like your analogy is, is exactly right. It's like, I've experienced that enough to have sort of gotten myself used to that feeling.

23:51It's a little bit like a saddle where, you know, the first time you sit in it, it doesn't work for you and it hurts. And by the time you like actually have been through it a few times, like, you know, how to, how to sit in it a little bit better. And I'm not as like taken out by some of those things. So, and I also realized through my experience with my previous life is that the news only lasts for two to three days, like nothing lasts longer than that. And so you can get really upset and you can hold onto something. You know, if you Google me, there are things out there that are vastly untrue about my relationship, about my wealth, about my son, about my marriage.

24:23Like you can find many sort of conflicting subjects. And the fact of the matter is like, it doesn't really matter. And I heard actually Tom Holland, I think say this quote, and it was something like, and basically it was like, listen, if you have a problem with me, text me. And if you don't have my number, then you don't have the right to have a problem with me. Oh, I love that. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, great. Like, it's like, okay, whatever. It doesn't really matter. Excellent. Excellent rule for living. Did the producers on the show say, here's a list of things we want you guys to cover.

24:54Was there like a script for that? I'm just so curious about the, how it works. Yeah. I mean, listen, I, I was new to it obviously, and, and, and still sort of learning and watching it unfold because I'm seeing it in real time as the audience is. So no, to answer your question really flatly, no, there was no script and there was no sort of like design that they've shared with us. Did they have something on the back end that they were sort of thinking about trying to make sure that we covered? That's very possible. I don't know. What I do know is that the audience didn't know any of us. So we were all new.

25:26And I think there is inherently a direct relationship between the way that you grew up and the way that you manage your interpersonal skills. And we all experienced that. I experienced every single one of us. We all sort of came to the table with things that we were struggling with, or we had struggled with, or we were dealing with currently that informed and played a part in how we handled every situation. Did you know any of them before you started filming? I mean, what I realized is like, this word to know someone is kind of general. It's like, was I acquainted with them? Sure. I was acquainted with some of them, but I didn't know any of them.

26:02Like I didn't know them at all. And we came very quickly realized that we didn't know each other. It's hard to get to know women and like your older part of it. You know, it's like that level of vulnerability is hard to come by. And you don't have. And also, like, I have a family. I have a lot going on in my life. Like spending time with new people isn't always that easy. And so, you know, yeah, we I know them now. Yeah. I mean, keep in touch. Yeah, do you keep in touch? I mean, were there any... Oh, yeah. Yeah? Yeah, because I think for us now, it's all happening. So while the filming happened in November, December, January, a little bit of February, it's all coming to light now, and the attention and the news and the banter, whether it be press or viewers, is happening now.