Jeremy Strong and Sebastian Stan on Becoming Roy Cohn and Donald Trump

0:28This is The Run Through. I'm Chloe Mal. in. It was our beloved Jessie Heyman's wedding which was so much fun on Saturday. So much fun. At Cafe China it was dim sum and then some. She wore a fabulous Bevza dress. Bevza, a designer we've had on Svetlana, we've had on the show. And Shoma was the fitting stylist. I was. In Paris, yeah. It was so glamorous and it was great to see Svetlana at work and it was a dress that just had Jessie's personality. It was very simple, but had a twist of personality and there was a matching coat and it was just, it was perfect. It was easy and lovely and just super chic.

1:11I know. I kind of want to do a story on like a wedding coat because Jessie's dress was strapless and had a, like a form fitting bodice and then a fuller skirt. But then Bevza sent sort of a a surprise, like a taffeta cream trench coat. And it was so First Wives Club and fabulous. I loved it. And I'm like, should everyone be wearing a wedding trench? I don't know. I know. For a fall wedding, it seems like an essential. Fun fact, the bodice of the dress, a kind of very fitted bodice of the dress was based on a Ghani Sax dress that I gave Jessie. Jessie's wedding and seeing Choma were definitely our headlines of the week.

1:49However, we do have a big week. This is like a major Newsweek situation. Everybody's been buzzing today. Hold that thought. I'm very excited for this show, Choma, because we had two fabulous young gentlemen on the show, me and Taylor interviewed Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong, to talk about their new film, The Apprentice, that is in theaters starting on Friday. and Sebastian plays a young Donald Trump and Jeremy is his attorney and mentor, Roy Cohn. Wow, I can't wait to see this. And so we chatted with them and Vogue's deputy editor and our cinephile in residence, Taylor Antrim. But more on that later.

2:36Today, we are chatting on Wednesday afternoon. The Met theme exhibition and co-chairs were announced at a press conference at the Met. People are very excited about this exhibition. The title is Super Fine, Tailoring Black Style, which I'm super excited about. So the book that it is based on is Professor Monica Miller. She's the chair of the Africana Studies at Barnard. And she wrote this book in 2009, Slaves to Fashion, Black Dandyism and the Styling of Black Diasporic Identity. And the whole show is inspired by that. And she is a guest curator for the exhibit. Troma, have you read the book? Well, here's the thing.

3:20I often get sat next to Andrew Bolton, curator in charge at the Costume Institute. So I'm always at fashion shows. There's always that one person who you're always sat next to. I have those people too. Yeah. So he kind of gave me a little bit of a sneak peek at what we could expect. And he was telling me about Monica Miller. And I actually not heard of this book. And just reading today more about it, beyond clothing, a lot of the things that will be included in the exhibit. So some of these things will be artifacts. And it'll probably be in a way similar to the way they did that American fashion, the first installation of the American fashion exhibit, because it goes much beyond clothing.

3:59So I think it's going to be really interesting, a really fabulous red carpet. And I'm sure like the co-host, I mean, A$AP Rocky, Pharrell, I mean. Coleman Domingo. Coleman Domingo. Lewis Hamilton. I mean, I cannot wait to see what they wear. LeBron James. LeBron James. I mean, I texted my partner immediately because the only thing he cares about is when fashion and LeBron James intersect. And he was just so excited. So, yeah, I think it's going to be epic. I think it's going to be so great. For the first time, I think, since 2003, the Men in Skirts exhibition where a Costume Institute show will focus solely on menswear, which I think is really interesting.

4:43Best Dressed Men is just going to be the most important list of the night. Absolutely. big week for Vogue covers. I love the Billie cover. And big tailoring. Yeah. And our former colleague, Alessandra Codina, wrote the story. It's such a nice piece. It has such nice energy. And she captured Billie so well. I just thought it was a great shoot and a really lovely piece. And so big fan of this cover. Chomo, I feel like you've had a social week. What have you been doing since you got back to London. So I literally touched down on Monday, and on Monday night, our dear friend Wes Gordon, who's a creative director at Carolina Herrera, we welcomed Wes to London and threw this wonderful dinner kind of to celebrate a new fragrance that the brand is launching, but also Freeze, which is the art fair that kind of travels around the world and hits London this week.

5:40So a lot of my colleagues are out at the fair now, people watching, because obviously the best street style is there at the fair. But I'm going to visit it this weekend. So it's also the London Film Festival this week, and I'm going to the premiere, and it's Steve McQueen's new movie Blitz, which we're all excited to see here. Oh, me too. I'm also going later this week to see Matty Diop, who's a wonderful French filmmaker who has a new film out called Dahomey. Cool. And she is super fabulous. I've always wanted to meet her. Yeah, I love that film Atlantique. I've always wanted to do something on her.

6:18She's so stylish. Ugh, girl, I'm going to beat you to the punch. I'm dying to. I find her to be the chicest person. Yeah. And super talented. And Atlantique, her last film, was one of my favorites ever. I remember her outfits at Venice were very chic. So chic. We have the Vogue, the CVFF, Vogue Fashion Fund cocktails tonight, where they sort of the talent showcase. And then next week after Forces of Fashion is the dinner announcing the winner of the CFTA Vogue Fashion Fund finalists and winners. So that'll be very exciting. Next week is Forces of Fashion. Big moments for us. When are you guys doing yours?

7:04Jean-Paul Gaultier. I think we're the week after. So we're doing ours at Central Saint Martins and John Galliano is like our headliner, so I'm very excited. We are doing the conference back at The Office, which was really fun last year. Are you hosting it? I'm hosting. I need to get on that. I think that everyone is going to be very excited about Anna interviewing Victoria Beckham. Yeah, that's going to be a good one. Jean-Paul Gaultier is going to be fab. There's a lot of fun interviews that I think people are going to enjoy and be excited about. Choma, what have you been using the Vogue app for?

7:43Oh, I mean, my favorite is still the quizzes. I've taken somewhat of a social media hiatus, so I haven't been posting. I love the quizzes. I love voting. Voting was always my favorite thing. I actually can't wait for the Met edition of all of the, everything that we can do on the app as part of the Met, because it's so fun to be part of the conversation. Yeah. The group chats, and I think it's going to be really great for the Met. So for me, it's always the quizzes. I only ever get to the second row. I've never gotten first row yet. I know. It's crazy. Nicole's like, yeah, I keep being second row.

8:17It's like, we have a problem if Nicole felt to second row. These are too hard. No, I think it's good. It's got a challenge. It's got a challenge. It can't be too easy. I think the last thing I posted on the app was my favorite accessory of the spring collections was the Bottega Veneta intracciato leather Richard Scarry Busytown children's book. Ooh, love. I'm obsessed and I want it.

8:49Oh, so we have a new podcast alert and I listened to it early this week and I was obsessed. and it's called The Closet Digest by Vogue. And my colleague Emily Chan is hosting it and she's an absolute vintage and sustainability nerd. And her first guest is Laverne Cox. And Laverne is such a huge Mugler collector and just has such an emotional connection to her wardrobe. So hearing her talk about her life through the lens of her closet is so fascinating. and I just encourage you all to go listen because Laverne is such a big, huge fashion nerd and those people I think always give you the most interesting stories about clothes and she's just a real obsessive.

9:37So I recommend everybody listen to it. Choma, what have you been watching or reading or listening to? I finally read a book that I've been trying to read since the summer that actually Hayley Maitland recommended. It's by Glynis McNichol. I'm mostly here to enjoy myself, which is kind of, I got in the mood for this book by reading Miranda July's On All Fours, and I think I've just now loved, like, this kind of midlife misadventures, and this is really great. So what about you? I am reading the book that, sort of, the status galley and the Vogue offices of the Diddy and Babbitt's letters to each other.

10:16Ooh. And I'm enjoying what I'm reading so far. I've been watching the Aaron Foster Netflix show, Nobody Wants This, with hot rabbi Adam Brody. And it's very funny and charming. I'm a fan.

10:37The Run Through will be back in just a moment.

10:51Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co-host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

11:32And we're back. So I heard you recently saw The Apprentice? Yes. The film, which comes out October 11th tomorrow, is about former President Donald Trump and his mentor, who really shaped, one could argue, a lot of Trump's behavior, Roy Cohn. It focuses on their relationship set in the 70s and 80s. I just loved what a New York film this was. It felt like it really captured a snapshot of a moment in late 70s New York. There's great costumes, great scenes of New York City nightlife. Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong are both spectacular in it and really fully embody their characters. They came into the Vogue offices this week to chat about the film with me and Taylor Antrim.

12:28And it was so amazing speaking with them. I complimented Jeremy Strong on his fashion because I love how he really goes for it. And he got very chuffed and said that he would describe his style as Egon Sheila steampunk. And I was like, OK. Interesting. But yeah, what I really was struck by was how much was improvised in the film we heard later. And so how completely they had to inhabit these characters because they had to live and breathe them off script as well. Wow. We started the conversation by asking Jeremy Strong, who plays Roy Cohn, why this film matters. So we have like three weeks till the election.

13:14But I'd just like to have just straightforward questions. I want people to know why they need to go see this movie. I think a lot of people have Trump fatigue. And this is two hours of being deep in his company. And so what is important for voters, frankly, who are facing this important decision? And filmgoers. And filmgoers. But, you know, this is an important, this is a moment in history this movie is coming out. You know, it's really fascinating. Jeremy, can you tell us why people should see The Apprentice before the election? You know, what's interesting is because this movie is very loaded, right?

13:46It's hard to talk about this movie in a nonpartisan way as a movie. But I think the movie has as much in common with Midnight Cowboy or Boogie Nights or even like Scarface as it does – it's more those things than it is some political polemic. But I also think – I read something the other day by this journalist who was a journalist in Chicago I think at the Sun-Times, Sidney Harris, who said history repeats itself but in such cunning disguise that we never detect the resemblance until the damage is done. and I guess I feel that the stakes are so fucking high right now in a way that they have never been in the history of this country maybe since the American Civil War and it's worth understanding where this guy came from and what he really believes because what he really believes it is not as it seems Like what is really going on in the messaging and in – you will learn a lot about if you see what Roy Cohn taught him and if you see what a great apprentice he was to this teacher.

15:09That's so compelling and I think – I just want to make sure people also understand how radical this movie is. That it makes you participate in the humanity of people that you may feel you can write off. you know, like we understand that Trump is a monster. We understand that Cohen was a monster. But actually, the movie makes you sort of participate in what they were like as human beings. And I find that just like a really useful exercise almost in being human. You know what I mean? Well, listen, there's a reason why it makes people so deeply, profoundly uncomfortable to relate to them that way.

15:44Like it's much easier to be like, well, they're monsters. And why would I want to feel anything or have any empathy or understanding? And I guess I find that really interesting. The question that I thought to myself watching this movie, Sebastian, is what was going through your mind when you were asked to play Trump? Because I would imagine that a lot of actors would just say no or be scared of this or be like, you know, are you crazy? So just tell me what went through your mind when the opportunity came your way and if you had any sort of doubts or fears or how you worked through that. Also, when was it?

16:17I'm curious because it's been a while. Yeah, I mean, I was more curious that someone thought it was going to be a good idea. I mean, you know, Carmen Cuba sent me the script in 2019. And then I met with Ali Abasi. And, you know, she had told me, you should really know this filmmaker because he's very interesting. And I think I talked to him for about two hours and nothing really came of it for three years. Carmen Cuba is your casting agent. Yeah. And then in 22, I got a call again, and then the project had resurfaced. And then at that point, I had gotten enough people saying maybe that this wasn't a good idea, that it was starting to sound like a good idea just because of that.

17:04And then I think it was more, okay, well, if the right person can come and play Roy Cohn, then it's really going to be exciting. It's going to be, it could be something. And obviously then we found Jeremy. But Ali being Iranian and growing up in Copenhagen and being an outsider, so to speak, being a European, having that lens on this was what was interesting. Because he wasn't playing for the blue or the red teams. He was looking from the outside in. And I think we were too far in the trenches on our own over here to see what is what. So Ali Abbas is the director. He's so great. I loved his movie, Holy Spider, which maybe you guys have seen.

17:48It's also a super gutsy movie like this one. Did you have any sense from the beginning that a movie about Trump would be very controversial, dangerous, difficult to get out there? Totally. I mean, you know that you're playing with fire. Absolutely. I mean, how could we not know that just living in this country? At the same time, I don't think that had any impact on how we approached it as artists. Like you're not in the world when you're making something. I think we related to it as a piece of work and as a film about these two guys and their relationship. And so now that it's done and it's out in the world, it feels loaded.

18:30But I think when we were making it, I personally didn't approach this any differently than I have approached anything else I've ever done. I mean, it had trouble getting distribution coming out of Cannes and then Trump's lawyers threatened to sue. Did you anticipate any of that? It just feels— I mean, it seems pretty up to, you know, kind of predictable that way. But I didn't anticipate how hard it was to get the financing because it started and stopped a few times. And that was what was tricky about it. There was a moment where I didn't really feel it was ever going to take off. And then when we wrapped January 31st, the idea of going to Cannes was also just unheard of because that really gives him three months or something to get that edited in time and the fact that he did.

19:12So everything's been day at a time with this. It also, if I'm being honest, I think I expected the movie to get scooped up out of Cannes. Right. You know, it had, I wasn't there, but, you know, I read about the standing ovation and I got texts and emails from people who had seen it. Totally. There was a lot of anticipation. You know, but then everyone was frankly scared to touch it. I think they were afraid of litigation and repercussions and afraid of Trump. And so, you know, now it's opening this Friday on 1 ,500 screens or something like that. But because we're not at a studio or a streamer, we have like$5 in terms of M &A to get awareness of the movie out there.

20:01And I do think that this is something that is like imperative for people to see, to learn. Like Churchill said in 1948, like those who cannot learn from the past are condemned to repeat it or some version of that. But I think this is a movie that is like learn about the past and learn from the past. But what I resonated so much to it is that it's not a piece of propaganda or it doesn't have a particularly straightforward message to me. I mean it was actually a quite discomforting film to watch for that reason. And I mean I guess I'm getting to the fact that there's a lot of humanity in this movie around the Trump character.

20:47But there's also some – there is a question there at the end of the film is do you trust these people? Right. What are the right decisions, right? And where do they come from? I think we all as human beings, I think, I like to still believe that we have instincts towards other human beings. And I think if you watch this film, it's not just learning about Trump as it is about learning about ourselves through him as well. That was definitely my experience of it. And I find it interesting that your character, Trump, is quite human and someone you empathize, if not sympathize with. in the beginning of the movie.

21:24I'm thinking about when he's knocking on doors, collecting rent, that kind of thing. Which a lot of people didn't know that he did that. Right, right. And then by the end of the movie, Jeremy, your character, Roy Cohn, is this like incredibly tragic figure, you know? And I thought that sort of switch was really fascinating. Yeah, I mean, in this case, the sort of the apprentice eclipses the mentor, which is what happened historically. But I think, you know, So what was exciting and challenging about this is to take these two monolithic people and say they're not monoliths. They're human beings with a history and with a past who made choices and different things shaped them.

22:05And let's examine what those things were. Gabe Sherman wrote an article last week in Vanity Fair where he said in this like hyperpolarized time where Trump is either deified or demonized, it's a radical act to portray him as a human being. And I think that that is exactly kind of what the mission statement was aesthetically. And one of the things that's really underneath that is Roy Cohn and Roy's sort of malign influence and the kind of playbook that he taught Trump. Always attack, deny everything, and never admit defeat. It's like these things are part and parcel of everything that Trump continues to do to this day.

22:56You say that no one's really gotten beneath the surface of this character, but you have. And I read about the preparation. I mean the transformation. I just want to tell people that the transformation that Sebastian achieves in this movie is uncanny. Like it's physical. It's verbal. It's the way he moves. And I read that you— And you make him very appealing. There you go. That's why it's so radical. I mean, look, if you go back to that Oprah 1988 show, him and Ivana were on the show. I mean, he's very seductive. He's very convincing. He's very—he comes across strong. He comes across protective of the country.

23:38I mean, there's qualities in that we still see today. I think back then, there were things that were appealing. And I think even when you dial further back, right, you're talking about someone that came in with ideas. And I guess like what I was thrown by was just sort of the amount of potential that I felt like he had at a certain point. And I don't think there's any fault in admitting that because by admitting that, then you can kind of see what the turnout has been. And that is tragic in some ways. Jeremy, I'm sort of fascinated by Roy Kunt started because of Angels in America, I have to admit.

24:22But I couldn't look away from how you got the exact rhythms of his voice. And I was curious how, what that process was like for you of really figuring out this very specific way and cadence with which he speaks. It's a process of attrition. It's quite a technical thing that involves hundreds or maybe thousands of hours of listening to audio and source material and then making that your voice. It's just like a laborious, boring process of fully internalizing like a different source code in a way. And then to the point where you can speak that way and it becomes your native way of speaking. I didn't really use my own voice with Sebastian until he came to see me on stage last year like in the dressing room and we like met each other for the first time.

25:23But it's like, you know, there's this there's a line in Hamlet where he says for use can almost change the stamp of nature. And I think a lot of what the actor's job is when you're doing kind of a work that requires some kind of transformation is is to change the stamp of your nature. And that just is about habit and repetition. And there's a lot of practical work involved. I mean, that was your experience, too, right? Like actually watching videos of him talking and changing the way you you spoke. yeah I mean I feel I feel there is a technical thing at the beginning because there's no it has to be in a way that like you do it until it's until you're not thinking about it right you know until it's just part of that's a better way of saying it yeah yeah and and I mean I it was just always I I think I think having a gun to the head helps uh look we we we knew this was going to happen and it was going to maybe come together but then it would fall apart and then finally when we did get the go-ahead, there wasn't a lot of time there, you know, to sort of, and I think maybe the pressure helps.

26:25Maybe the, you know, then when you get up in the morning, that's what you do. When you, before you go to bed, like it's still what you're doing, you know. We improvised a fair amount in this movie. So it's not like you're learning, you're not learning something and then presenting it back. Like you have to learn it so much that when Sebastian's improvising in the scene where he's showing Ed Koch the Trump Tower, like everything that comes out of his mouth, all the inflections, all the cadence, it's all Trump. And likewise, that's my job too. It's also something, it's one of the challenges, but it's also, I think once you kind of break the back of that, then you're kind of free.

27:11And so you want to just get to the point where you're not thinking about anything. The height of the waterfall, you nailed that the first time in the speech when you're talking to Koch about that. The height of the waterfall, the type of career, marvel. That was all improvised, by the way. It's amazing. Oh, wow. It was, but I have to tell you that, honestly, I credit Jeremy with that because I remember on day one when we went to set, you know, that was the first day I saw how we were going to do this, how we were going to shoot this, and also the level of his preparation and i and i felt okay ali is going to now we're going to do the script but we're all he's also just going to call out different things and you know that talk about mccarthyism yeah whatever and that and that also meant you know having to know the time period and you know jeremy was out there suddenly improvising about the mets game that had happened last week that was in the paper and how much the guy had struck out.

28:13And also the mayor at the time and what was being written in the Post versus the Daily News and so on and so forth. And I mean, that was the level of information that I think you had to carry into this so that you could actually riff on some of those facts because Ali just would decide randomly to, you know, to go there. We're both big respecters of text. like you know we come from the theater where the text and the scripts are king you know if you do a pinter play you don't change a syllable or shakespeare whatever and wasn't succession like famously very scripted yeah it's very scripted but also not you know a lot of it was not scripted there was a lot of freedom afforded us as well certain things you wouldn't want to change a single moment.

29:02In certain things, you find, oh, there's room here, or this actually feels, I feel compelled to take this somewhere else. I wonder if it's easier or more challenging to inhabit someone who's a real person, because it sounds like the work you've done is so specific to listening to hundreds of hours of people actually, of a real person speaking. Is that more freeing or more constraining in a way than a character who's just been written? I always know I'm always thinking about that metaphor in Apollo 13 you know when the astronauts are in space and then back at the house they come in they dump a whole thing and they're like they take a triangle and they they're like we got to take the triangle and make it fit into the square you know it's like you have no choice there's a target yeah at least you know the target but you got to get in that somehow yeah and you don't know how you have to change that's great that's great.