Julia Louis-Dreyfus On Broadway, Annie Leibovitz, and Why Chloe Should Go To Therapy With Her Mother

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1:32This is The Run Through. I'm Chloe Mao. And today, I am sharing a very special conversation with Julia Louis-Dreyfus. I have to say, this was a very important interview for me. I have been a huge Julia fan for several decades. I always felt an affinity with Elaine Bennis. I've been accused of doing the Elaine dance at weddings. and recently on a flight I was reminded of how much I love Julia because there's this unique dance you do with your children where you're excited that they want to watch their own shows on a flight but also have to like manage all of their show watching. So I feel like I can never really get into a movie when my kids are watching so I just watched Veep and while Artie was toggling back and forth between Wild Kratts and whatever other things he was watching.

2:25And even going in and out of Veep, I was laughing so viscerally that my six-year-old asked me what was wrong with me. I just, no one makes me laugh like Julia Louis-Dreyfus. And it was such a pleasure to have her in the studio and talk about, frankly, a lot of things that weren't that funny. But I was really thrilled to be able to discuss with her. and the top line of that was her debut on Broadway, which I was sort of shocked by because I feel like I think of her as such a New Yorker and a thespian, but she is going to be making her Broadway debut in other desert cities, which goes into previews end of September.

3:04You know, it's interesting because a few years ago, Julia launched this podcast, Wiser Than Me, in which she speaks to older women who share their life wisdom, and I am someone who is a huge fan of older people, especially older women. I'm constantly trying to seek wisdom from older women in my life and so I have loved really delving into Julia's podcast and it was a treat to turn that around with her. So we talked about what it's like to be heading to Broadway, her failed journaling practice, and also we commiserated about both losing my mother's home and her home in the Palisades fires two years ago.

3:48And I also was inspired by her going to therapy with her mother and wondered if I should try the same. Anyway, here is my conversation with Julia Louis-Dreyfus. I can't wait for you to listen and for me to start going to therapy with Candice.

4:07One of my favorite things about doing this podcast is that it introduces me to other podcasts. With you, it was like this treasure trove because of your podcast. Oh, yeah. And so I've been driving back and forth to Connecticut because my kids and my husband have been there all month. And so I've just been deep in getting wise. Good. And it was on the New York Times podcast that you said that one of the things that these wise women have taught you is to work on letting go of self-doubt and shame. And I feel like as a parent, I'm constantly doubting and panicking. And I wonder how your no self-doubt quest is going.

4:47It's going. It's ongoing. What is something right now that you feel you have a lot of doubt, self-doubt around? Oh, God. How long is this podcast? We have time. I would answer that question by saying it sort of depends on the time of day and the frame of mind. And, you know, like, for example, last night at 3 o 'clock in the morning, I woke up inexplicably, and I was up from 3 to 4. And that's when the—I would call it the self-doubt parade comes marching through my brain. But I think it's good to, certainly good to have, to question yourself. But the self-doubt at releasing it is definitely something that we could all benefit from, to a certain extent.

5:39You know, women in particular, I have to say. When I heard you say that, I said, wow, that is a noble goal that I'm far from. Well, I'm still working on it. You are going to be on Broadway for the first time ever. Is there more doubt, the parade of self-doubt at 3 a.m. for doing something you've never done before? Yes, sure. And I'm just attacking that vigorously. Okay. With work. Okay, that makes sense. What is the scariest thing about doing something new like Broadway? What feels different is that there's an enormous amount of time to really explore the material. That's interesting. And that process is arduous.

6:23It's a lot of mental energy. I said to my husband yesterday, what it feels like when I come home after we've, we're only a week into rehearsals, but currently it feels like I was taking an exam for six hours straight. And now I'm, and my brain is tired. Right. But it is that kind of demand. And focus, like proper focus, you know, there are less distractions. And it's not like television and film is a walk in the park. I mean, it's a different deal. But this is definitely, I haven't done theater in 40 years. And I loved it back in the day in Chicago. I love it again now. Right. And I have this incredible blessing.

7:18we, all of us, have this incredible blessing of the playwright is with us. I was thinking that that must make it a different experience. Oh my gosh. I mean, and this work is so, you know, we're just peeling back layers of an onion that has seemingly infinite layers. And for people listening who don't know, the onion is other desert cities and the playwright is John Robin Bates. Bates. Yes. And how would you describe the story? Because I was about to describe it, but I'll let you do it instead. I'll describe it cryptically because there are a few twists and turns that are fun to discover in the moment, hopefully in the audience.

8:06But it is a story of a family in Palm Springs in 2004 on Christmas Eve, and they have come together for the holiday. And it's a mother, a father, their two adult children, and the mother's sister. And the daughter in this family, and in our case being played by the wonderful Lily Rabe, has written a book. And she's a novelist. And she has come home with this book. And that's really what I'll say. But it's packed with an enormous amount of drama and an enormous amount of comedy, which I love. I love that in the Vogue article in the September 2, Adrian Miller wrote that the play is wonderfully and wickedly funny, but that it's a different type of comedy because it's pinned under tragedy.

9:07There's tragedy underneath it. Did it feel like playing funny in a different way? It definitely feels loaded. Yeah. The way that anything funny can seem under horrible circumstances. And I've done, you know, the tone of this. I've danced around this in my career with movies I've made with Nicole Holofsen, for example. But this has a river of gravitas underneath that is, for me, it's very moving. You play Polly, who's the matriarch, who's a sort of conservative, wealthy woman of Palm Springs. Do you have any Polly's in your life? Did you grow up with Paulies that you thought of when you were thinking about this?

9:52I did. I certainly did. I'm sure. I grew up in New York. Originally, I was born in New York. But then when I was, oh, God, how old was I? Like eight or nine, we moved to Washington, D.C. A town riddled with Paulies. Yes. So I knew from Paulies. Okay. I have to say, I'm so excited. I've never seen this play. It was at Lincoln Center Theater, you know, 20 years ago, but I didn't see it. But I am so drawn to this subject because I—memoirs are one of my favorite things to read. Autofiction is one of the types of writing I find most fascinating. And I'm constantly thinking about the effects of authors' books on their families because there are so many different versions of people's memories.

10:42Yeah. And I wonder, I have to say, listening to your podcast, Many Episodes in Succession, one of my top line thoughts was, I wonder if Julia has written a memoir. I have not. Because you do such wonderful personal sharing at the beginning. I know. I sort of regret it, but yeah. But it doesn't feel invasive. It just is beautiful writing. And I wonder if you've ever thought about writing a memoir, if anyone in your family has ever written about you or anyone you've worked with, do you ever read things about yourself and think that that's not the version I remember? I guess. Have you ever written a memoir?

11:21Yeah, it's in a drawer because I don't want to hurt my mother's feelings. Oh, for real? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

11:31She wrote a memoir and just dropped it on me and my stepfather's doorstop and went to LA to shoot something. And we both read it together and we're like, oh my God. Was it at that point published? No. No, but it was, I mean, it was basically in galley. And was for you to make comments on? And then did she make a... Sort of. I mean, she felt it was a love letter to both of us. We both, you know, one never reads a story quite like that. But it was a very specific experience. And her memories were very different than both of ours. Oh, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. Yeah. Were you upset by it?

12:11You don't mind my asking? You know, more than being upset, it felt a bit like permission to do the same. Oh, I see. There was a bit of a mercenary, and then I got cold feet. That's hilarious. That's very funny. Well, I have not written a memoir. I've been approached to do it a lot, and I have always pushed back against it because I feel daunted by it. I have a very large family. And also, you know what? I've been in sort of the public eye for a long time. and I really like my privacy. And who's going to benefit from a memoir? You know, is the next question. I'm not sure it's me. I mean, I even, you know, starting to do this play, I thought, you know, I'm going to journal.

13:05I'm going to start to write a journal. How's that going? Not well. I wrote, I have a page that I wrote on the plane coming to New York. That was the end of it. What does your journal look like? What's the physical book? Oh, it's this fabulous book. It's very pretty. Well, that's the thing. They're always beautiful, and then it makes you feel even more guilty. You know that wonderful artist who does embroidery on pillows and tea towels, and it's often animals? Oh, yes, coral and tusk. Thank you. Speaking my language. Yes. It's a coral and tusk thing that has beautiful flowers all over it. I love it.

13:44You owe it to the flowers. I know, but, you know, it's such a joke because I have it, and I was making notes on my tomato plants in my garden. So I have the first, like, four pages are like, this year I planted this, you know, indeterminate and that determinant, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then on page four, it's like, I'm on my way to New York to do—anyway, forget it. It's a joke. I'm not going to do it. Okay. There's so much going on up here, and I'm so focused right now on doing my best possible work in this show that the idea of then going home and writing about what I'm thinking, it's like I'm already boring myself to death.

14:26It takes an astounding amount of energy. I'm rereading Tina Brown's Vanity Fair Diaries, and she wrote details of every single person at every dinner party she went to, what was discussed. And it's actually a fascinating portrait of the 80s in New York. But the idea to me of getting home at 10 p.m. and documenting that is mind-boggling. It's mind-boggling because you have to take off your makeup and get ready for bed. Every time I come home and I've been wearing makeup, I'm like, oh, fuck, I've got to take my makeup off. And that alone is keeping me from journaling. Yeah. So, you know, cut to I write a memoir and— Nothing is real.

15:06Exactly. Today I took my mascara off. I wonder if you remember the first time you were on stage. Yeah, I was in some play in like fourth grade. And it wasn't this seismic personal experience. It wasn't like after that you knew you wanted to always be on stage, or was it? Oh, it was seismic. Okay. Yeah, seismic. You seemed dismissive of it. Like, oh, it was fourth grade. No, but I just mean I was trying—I wasn't dismissive at all. I was just trying to—I mean, I did a lot of plays growing up. Okay. But I remember this one particular play called Serendipity, and I played a queen or something. And I was supposed to faint in this scene, and I did.

15:48And it wasn't meant to be funny, but it got a laugh, and I was thrilled to pieces. Yeah. There's nothing more powerful. It's pretty nice. Who makes you laugh the most right now? That's a hard question. Or who's the last person who really made you laugh? Well, Allison Janney right now is really making me laugh. she's in the play with me and we are having such a good time. Well, I'm very jealous because I have to say as a West Wing devotee, I'm a, yeah. That woman is rock solid.

16:26The Run-Through will be back in a moment.

16:37This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll.

17:17Get those steps in! And for morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace, to nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair. What a twist! Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic, Sierra's got it.

18:10I'm always interested talking to Broadway actors about how they treat it like a marathon, that it's like a physical activity. What's your workout going to be? What's your sort of self-maintenance? Are you going to do vocal exercises? Do you have a strict exercise routine? I have a pretty strict exercise routine, but I haven't actually locked in what it's going to be once we're in the theater and on stage. I'm absolutely mulling it over. I need my exercise. There's no question about it. What do you do? I take interval training classes, and I walk, and I run, and I— well, when I'm home in California, I'm a swimmer, and I do Pilates, but I haven't set that up yet here in New York.

18:59Okay. So I'm trying to do everything and weights. What is in your rider for your dressing room? Calm, a nice blanket, and a very clean sheet and a good pillow. I'm not kidding. I didn't really—I probably should have put a rider in, but I don't know. I mean, I don't know if they really do that for Broadway because I think the rooms are all falling apart. I mean, the room is teeny tiny. Yes. Teeny tiny. But I don't care. Well, I'm going to need to have my electrolytes. Oh, interesting. What's your electrolyte brand of choice? I like Cure. Oh, interesting. But, you know, you can make this too. I mean, I think I love lemon.

19:41And you could put lemon and salt in water and be, I think, kind of done with it, which I might also do. I don't know. Anyway, hydrating is everything. For real. No, it's true. I know. I'm constantly refilling my Condé Nast carafe, which they very nicely provide for us. That's very, very fancy. Yes, exactly. I loved listening. I actually this morning listened to your interview with Annie Leibovitz, which was fascinating for me because I've worked with Annie for so long, but she doesn't do a ton of interviews. And it's interesting to hear her. Usually she's focused on her subject and she's not the subject.

20:23So it's interesting to see that flipped. And I wonder, you both talked about how you wanted her, she wanted to photograph you. And then for the September issue, that came to fruition. What was the experience of being photographed by Annie like? Was it, did you find that it was different from other photographers? Yes, I did. First of all, I want to say how delighted I was to be a part of that. That was like a life dream for me to work with her. And so thank you and to whoever makes all these decisions because I was really excited to work with her because I think she's a proper artist. Yeah. Because she is a proper artist.

21:05And it was loose. And I've worked with photographers where that is not the case, where there's a very set plan and photographers don't want to move off of that plan. Yes. And Annie's loose. And I noticed that and enjoyed it tremendously. And I felt, and I don't always feel this way, it's scary to have your picture taken, you know? It's you, and you're putting your confidence in somebody that you don't know that well, and they may do something you don't like and then use it, and then it's out in the world. It's freaky that way. And I've been burned, too, you know? But I didn't have that anxiety.

21:53I felt confident in her. Which makes a big difference. It really does. I felt like I could just be myself. And as a matter of fact, that picture that she took where I was wearing black pants and a black sweater, I thought, wow, that really looks like me. Yeah. Which is what you want. Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a lot of makeup on and stuff, and it was just kind of like my hair was every which way. And I don't know. It was just, it was what I thought it was going to be, and I was thrilled for that. Is your hair naturally curly? Mm-hmm. Is Elaine hair close to your natural hair? That's a little, Elaine hair was a little enhanced.

22:33Okay. When I was little, I had ringlets. Yeah. And then, of course, as I've gotten older, it's more sort of, what, frizzy? I don't know what you call it. I know. I feel like my hair went from Elaine-ish hair to now Kramer-ish hair. It's sort of been my trajectory. Do you ever wear your hair down? I do, often. How is it now? Can I see the back? It looks like if Kramer had a sister. See what I mean?

23:04I do. Yeah. Cosmo's younger sister.

23:11I was very moved. Again, I think you do a very good job of introducing your guests via personal anecdote. And I was very moved the beginning of the Annie episode to hear about you losing your house in the Palisades. Was it in the Palisades? I guess I just assumed that. That was the case for my mother also and our family photos. And it really reminds you how connected memories are to things. And the things, you know, we're encouraged to say things don't matter, but the things, the layers of the things build the life. and so that I feel that I'm constantly being reminded of things that I miss from that house and I wondered if there are any things that you keep coming back to all the time yeah yeah all the time that is definitely short of losing people that I love in my life that is the great loss Yeah, that was a shocking experience.

24:15I don't know how your mom's doing. Was everything in that house? A lot of stuff was in that house. She was not spending as much time there, so she had brought a lot of stuff to New York. Wait, did you grow up there? It was not the house we grew up in, but it was all of the stuff from the house we grew up in. And so it was all of her family photos and our family photos and even things like she made a lot of our Christmas ornaments. There's a few angels she made out of Kotex pads that were really special. They sound very holiday. We talk about the Kotex angels. But no, I mean, it was I feel it's still the reverberations of that keep going.

25:00Also, her Emmys melted. Mine too. I wondered if they replaced yours because they replaced hers very efficiently. They replaced mine too, very kindly. Where do yours live now? New York. Okay. Yeah, hers came back too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, look, we have ourselves. We have our lives. People lost their lives in those fires. So I'm very grateful for the fact that the most important thing is still here. But, you know, not a day goes by where I don't think about this, truthfully. Because it was the house where we raised our children. We lived in this house for 32 years. And we kept everything of value in that house.

25:46Yeah. I still can't believe it happened. I think sometimes my mom just, sometimes she just is like, oh, what happened to our, like, I can just see there is a layer of processing it that's hard. Yeah. It's hard. Have you or has she been back there since? Yes. Uh-huh. And she is not rebuilding there. Yeah. Because she's 80. Yeah. But what was really amazing, and actually the Times did a really beautiful article on this, is I went back in April and the rose bushes were growing. Mine too. It was crazy. Mine too. And, you know, they did the Times did a beautiful photo essay on the roses of Altadena.

26:31And there were rose bushes everywhere. But, I mean, you went to our house and it was just like Dresden except for these roses. Well, that is so remarkable. You're telling me this because we had a walkway up to our front door. And I had Julia Child roses all the way up. And they were really remarkable. Julia Child rose, for those who don't know, are beautiful yellow roses. I'd had them for years, and they were like a big deal in our neighborhood. People would stop and take pictures because they're really hardy. And, you know, it's 2 ,000 degrees. The entire house collapsed in and on itself and melted.