Kamala Harris Is Ready For The Next Chapter

0:28This is The Run Through. I'm Chloe Mao. following Joe Biden's withdrawal from the election. And I have to say, you just speed through this book because it almost feels like watching an episode of the show 24, which ages me because that was 20 years ago. But it's like tick, tick, tick, tock all the way down to election day. And then obviously this sort of gutting finale. And we all were left wondering, is there a chance she's going to run for something, the big thing in 2028? Yeah, it's a really fast paced read. It's sort of like a TikTok of the— Not a TikTok. T-I-C-K, T-O-C-K, Chloe, of the last election.

1:09You were the one who referenced 24. That show is like 30 years old. Okay. Calling it like a TikTok. It's a really fast-paced read, and both of us had a lucky chance to read it early. It was a great conversation, but it went beyond the book, which was something I was so fascinated by. She gave us insight into the state of the country following the killing of Charlie Kirk. She talked about Jimmy Kimmel's suspension. There was a lot in this conversation. I was really pleased. She also talked to us about – she was giving me advice on my new job at the beginning and how she dressed when she started as a prosecutor.

1:45That when she started as a prosecutor, women were not allowed to wear pantsuits. They had to wear skirt suits and what they called the DiFi tie, which is the Dianne Feinstein sort of voluminous neckerchief. So, yes, we feel like we got all sides of Vice President Harris in our brief time with her. It was a great conversation. So without further ado, here's Vice President Harris. Well, congratulations on everything. Thank you so much. It is exciting. It's been a busy couple of weeks. But it's exciting because it's more of the same, too. I mean, Chloe's worked at Vogue as long as I have. I feel like she's been around for so long.

2:26Right, right. It's not new. It's a sense of continuity, which is really nice for all of us. Yeah, that is. That is good. That's important. It's important because this is a— It's an evolution, not a revolution. Right. That's what I'm going with. Right. No, I think that's good. But also there's a continuum, but progress, right? Yes, exactly. And so progress anticipates that there will be change. Yeah. But along the continuum. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, I started as a prosecutor and I've had many mentors in my life. And early in my career, one of them said to me, Kamala, fighter pilots only take direction from other fighter pilots.

3:01Oh, interesting. That's good. So you coming into this role of leadership, having come up through the ranks, is more important than you may realize. That is such a great way to think about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you know it. You've done it. And so even if you bring change, you are a new person. You're your own person. It's the beginning of the next era. And so people are going to be braced for that. But they know that you came up through the ranks. Yeah. And so there's a certain, you know, credibility that is earned. Yeah. With that background. Oh, I like that. I really look forward to you using the fighter pilots anecdote in a meeting.

3:42But no, but really, but it's true. No, I love that. Right? It was cool. You know, you didn't just kind of helicopter in. Yeah. To mix metaphors. And she's had a lot of roles, too. I mean, you were, once upon a time, you were called a social editor, which is really a time capsule. And what's confusing is now everyone thinks I ran a social media account, which is laughable. No, that meant all these things have changed meanings drastically. So drastically. I can't believe we had a social editor once upon a time. I know. It's so crazy. Please, do you know when I started trying cases, women could not wear pantsuits when we were trying cases?

4:14No. When was that? In like the 90s? What were you supposed to wear? A dress? Skirt suits. Oh. I'm so fired right now. I'm so fired. Ball gowns. At the end of the book. Ball gowns, Taylor. I was like, that's kind of chic, to be honest. What entity is deciding that? This is the point about it just, you know, for women to show any femininity, right? Because all the suits were basically tailored for men. It was men's suits that women would wear. essentially. So, and this is maybe a California thing, but if women were going to show flair in their femininity, they would wear what used to be called the Di-Fi tie.

4:54Oh my God, say more. Dianne Feinstein. Remember in like Margaret Thatcher and all would have these things. And that was their feminine. That was their expression of femininity. Did you ever try the Di-Fi tie? No.

5:10In fact, when I was elected DA, so this is when I started, when I was elected DA, And a friend of mine who used to work in the office called me and he said, how's it going? I said, I think it's going well. What are you hearing? And he said, he started laughing. He said, I hear the women are wearing shorter skirts and higher heels. Wow. Because they realized they would be taken seriously and didn't have to worry about expressing their femininity and not be taken seriously. Interesting. Yeah. It's fascinating when you think about, you know, you guys know this, the intersection between social policy, equal rights, fashion, you know, perception of gender, what does it mean, expression of individuality.

5:50It's all interconnected. Yeah. I mean, that's what I loved about even just like the Met gala that came last year or this year. And just when you think about the history of fashion and what that has meant, like the zoot suits, right? And that that was around the riots in L.A. based on Latinos and Filipinos expressing their individuality and culture. Anyway, you guys are in a great business. That's my only point. We love to hear it. And there's an intersection. We do love to hear it. And there's an intersection. I mean, this is something that we talk about a lot because, as you can imagine, people on our team have mixed feelings about covering the fashion of the current administration.

6:31And it is important because we are a fashion news publication and giving analysis on what people wear and why, what you wear can be powerful and it is important to register. And so I do struggle with how to advise people on that. But I do keep coming back to the fact that the way we choose to present ourselves has implications.

6:55We are going to take a short break. We'll be back in a moment. Thank you.

7:31Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

7:47Welcome to the show. Thank you. We are so excited to have you here. We are so excited to have you. Thank you. Taylor devoured your book over the summer. Yes, I got a chance to read it early. I'd like to boast on this podcast. But Chloe burned through it over the weekend. I did. And it's called 107 Days, and it counts down the days to the presidential election. And it's such a present tense kind of book where you're really in the moment. And it made me want to ask you a question about our present tense. And we're going to talk about the book. But to start, I just wanted to get a sense from you about where you think we are as a country right now.

8:21We're 12 days out from the assassination of Charlie Kirk. There's been other political violence. There was a shooting in Minnesota in the summer. There was President Trump's attempted assassination, and January 6th is not far from our memories. So could you tell us what alarms you most about all of this, and how do we stop things from escalating further? So there's a lot to unpack in what you presented. Let's start with the murder of Charlie Kirk. He should not have been murdered. He should not have been killed. A young man, young family, he had every right to live. and I will always stand in defense of his right to live.

9:03And I do not stand in defense of his beliefs, but he should not have been killed. And you are right to then see it in the line of what we have been seeing over quite some time. I mean, history goes back quite far in terms of political violence, but even just let's think about Gabby Giffords. We can think about what happened in terms of, you know, fast forward to the senator in Minnesota. I attended her funeral. Two beautiful children, she and her husband, are gone. They're without parents. What we have been saying in terms of political violence, whether it was the attempt on President Trump's life, and then most recently.

9:48And it's got to stop. I think that on that issue of political violence, an important point that has to be made over and over again is we have a right as Americans to expect our elected leaders to bring down the temperature. We have a right that we would expect our president to actually bring down the temperature and use that most powerful voice. The platform, the bully pulpit of the president of the United States is equal to none in the world. and so not only the opportunity but the duty that comes with that microphone bestowed upon you by the people of america to be a leader should not be so easily thrown away for the sake of one's personal satisfaction in vengeance and that's part of what concerns me about where we are now, that we have a president of the United States that spends full time in moments where we could rise to unify the country, to calm the fear, and instead he chooses to inflame it.

11:05And that is to no one's benefit, whatever your political ideology, whoever you voted for. And I think all of us then as Americans, Americans, I hope, are unified in expecting and wanting more from the president of the United States. Part of the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's killing has been Jimmy Kimmel being suspended from the air. And this has been something that much of America has been focused on. But I feel very acutely in the media industry, I feel like friends across the entire spectrum of the media industry are so shaken by this. And wondering how seriously should we be taking Trump's threats about coverage?

11:53How should we how should this affect the way that we do our jobs? We vogue. We vogue. But also we as as the fourth estate in general. How should how should we be thinking about this in a rational way? What should the digestion look like? I think we have to you're right in terms of perspective is very important. Right. And so perspective hopefully is almost always influenced by, at least beginning, the influences by fact, what happened. And what we have seen is the weight of the federal government, as dictated by the president of the United States and members of his administration, bearing down to silence the voice of a critic, of a citizen who deigned to criticize their government, which is normal in a healthy democracy.

12:49You go back through the history of time in democracies. Political satire is a beautiful component of what happens in a free society that values free speech. But the weight of the federal government was used to suspend Jimmy Kimmel and to send a message to all of you who are in media, who dare to express opinion, to offer compliment or criticism, to have you exist in fear where you have to ask this question, what does this mean for us? what can we and this is the tragedy where the media is asking what can we get away with without being punished one has to ask how is this so different from communist dictatorship for generations we have prided ourselves on what we stand for the principles and who we are the constitution of the United States starting with the first amendment And when people have in any way criticized our allegiance to our principles, often to make our point, we will also contrast ourselves with communist dictatorship.

14:08How are we any different right now? I ask. I want to ask you about one of the most striking moments in the book for me. And it links into what we're talking about. You arranged a call with President Trump after his assassination attempt. And it was after you exchanged some friendly words with him at the 9-11 ceremony here right near where we're talking. I was so struck by that phone call. Which was the day after our debate. Correct. Yes, exactly right. So you have the debate and then you have that 9-11 moment. And anyway, you know, I was so struck by that call. And I think anyone who reads this book that will really seize on this chapter because it's a quite human exchange.

14:50You know, he compliments you. He compliments Doug. My husband. Yes, yes, your husband. I guess my question to you was, was that a genuinely empathetic side of President Trump? Or what was going on there? You invoke sort of Jekyll and Hyde at the end of the chapter. And I was left wondering what you made of that conversation. I did feel he was being sincere in his compliment and his compliment of Doug. And that is, as I write in the book, I had two conversations that I talk about in the book with him, which I think both demonstrate a certain, I don't know, side of him, characteristic.

15:39but regardless of whether that one conversation that he and I had made me in that moment think that he actually has a warm side to him I don't know if that really matters when we are looking at the fact that he is inciting fear that he is silencing his critics that he is weaponizing the United States Department of Justice against his political enemies, that he is forgiving people who have clearly committed crimes like the January Sixers while he is going after the people who in some way have damaged his reputation according to him. So it just, you know, if you're talking about a ledger, does one in any way forgive the other?

16:29Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Trevor Burrus The other thing, the chapter, the other chapter that I was so gripped by is the recounting of the debate. And it was quite something to relive that from the stage as you describe it. And it got me thinking and made me want to ask you, that debate was so nuts and it didn't actually change the course of the election. And I just wonder, what role should political debates have in the next presidential? You're asking a wonderful question. And I guess I'll answer by first saying I hoped it would have an impact. But polling told us that it didn't necessarily have an impact on how people were perceiving where we stood and what the issues were and the contrast.

17:21And even though tens of millions of people, I think the estimates may be off, but somewhere around 70 million people watched it. Everybody watched it. Right. It was incredible. And if you don't count what they saw in terms of streaming and YouTube and all that. So people saw it, to your point. And I think the contrast, all objective people would say, was very clear between he and I on where we stand on issues, how we think. I don't think we should stop having those debates. I think for people who are genuinely interested in the contrast, as I talk about the split screen, I think we owe it to them to offer it.

17:59Whether it influences large groups of people, maybe that's not the point. The point is that they just we need to be transparent and require, again, that we have an independent media who will present a fair debate between opposing sides to air it out. It's funny because as Taylor has already bragged, he read this book before I did. I read this book. Subtle brag. I read the book this weekend when there had already been an excerpt from the book out. It had been in the media a bit. And I it was interesting to me reading the book after that to see so much of what had emerged after the excerpts were released was that you were difficult on or critical of President Biden.

18:50But from the book, you clearly love President Biden and respect him so deeply. But there are moments where you and he aren't on the same page and you are critical of some of his advisers. Were you surprised by that becoming the prevailing narrative or is that the cost of doing business? To be very candid with you, Chloe, do you guys remember the whole parable about the blind man and the elephant? Yes. That's how I. For those who don't. Yeah, please. So, okay. So basically I'm going to probably mess it up, but here's my version of that parable. There's a blind man and you then tell him you are being presented with an elephant.

19:32And let's say you give the blind man then the ability to touch the trunk. And the parable is that if that's all that one sees, they will decide that the whole thing looks like that one thing. So that's the point, right? It's about the fact that if you just see one piece, all of us, sighted or unsighted, if you see just one piece of something, you're going to make huge and probably even false assumptions about what the whole is. And that was my reluctance. I actually told my team about the parable. And I said, when we were trying to decide, do we do excerpts? And the winning argument, and I was persuaded that it was the right one, was we need to give journalists some idea of what's in it.

20:19And frankly, the other concern was that it would just start leaking anyway. So we did. And I was very concerned. And it played out to your point, which is there would be this whole idea that this was about a tell-all book or somehow about a book about Joe Biden, which it's not. And I do love Joe Biden, and I have a great deal of respect for him. And I think that now you guys have read the book, more people this week, everyone will be able to read the book. They will see that it really is fundamentally a book about one of the most interesting and historic elections for president of the United States in our history.

20:59Because think about it. The election in 2024 was an election where the president of the United States was running for reelection. three and a half months before the election, decides to drop out, the sitting vice president then gets into the race against a former president of the United States who had been running for 10 years with 107 days to go. And it was the closest election for president of the United States in the 21st century. And I felt a need to write about this for the sake of, one, the historical significance of it, But also to be very candid, I also wanted to make sure that as history writes this, that my voice is present.

21:44Yeah. Because this is part of America's history now. This is American history. And I wanted to make sure that the perspective and the experience of at least one of the individuals who was involved helps the narrative. and ultimately I do hope that one of the takeaways of the book for those who read it is it was an incredible experience to travel our country and to see these crowds of thousands and thousands of people who seemingly had nothing in common coming together and the optimism, right? I dare I say the joy that people had about what is possible for our country. You know, going back to your point, Taylor, about where are we today?

22:36Yeah. One of the things I hope to achieve is that people understand that light that people had inside of them during those 107 days, that's theirs. and it can't be extinguished by virtue of one election or any one person who happens to be right now in office. Like, that light is in all of us. And don't let it be dimmed, right? And see the light in each other, right? Especially in these moments of darkness.

23:14The run-through will be back in a moment. Thank you.

23:49Yorker. So join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

23:58I wanted to ask about a moment right in the beginning. So the book starts with you sort of understanding that Biden is going to drop out. The book starts with me making pancakes. Making pancakes. Yes, yes, that's right. That's right. But in our reading, there was 22 minutes where you knew that President Biden was dropping out before the rest of the world did. And what I would like to know is what was your number one thought during those 22 minutes? It's just such a charged moment where you know something and the rest of the world has not yet been told. Well, you hit it on the head. I was acutely and so well aware.

24:40where I know something the rest of the world doesn't know that's about to change literally the rest of the world. And, I mean, frankly, it's not necessarily, I mean, that was very unique and specific, but, you know, having been vice president of the United States for four years, there are many things that I knew and know that the rest of the world may not. But knowing that it was on my shoulders, I understood so well the gravity of what that those 22 minutes and then that whole day and 107 days meant but I also share a pretty funny story about where my husband was we love this story and wasn't during those nerve wracking minutes basically for anyone listening and watching I couldn't find him tell us why I'm trying to find Dougie I'm trying to find him I'm calling I call I mean I'm just and I'm like where is my husband and I'm on the phone dealing with talking with the president talking with my team talking with his team and I'm asking like my niece and my brother-in-law can you please find Doug nobody can find Doug I'm calling him can't find him and then I'm like get our son Cole who was also in LA because Doug was in LA I'm in DC Can you find him?

26:10Nobody can find Doug. The reason is because Doug was on a bike at SoulCycle in West Hollywood. And we love that for him. It made me laugh because I used to go to SoulCycle, and I remember the teachers would always say at the beginning, leave your phones outside of the classroom unless you are a doctor or you have a sick kid. So he didn't register for both either of those. No, no. And they should add, or your wife might get an important call. That's so true. I know. I used to go to SoulCycle all the time. You're exactly right. Exactly. Right? Like, dude should have had his phone on him. He's a rule follower.

26:48SoulCycle needs a Doug clause. Doug is a big rule follower. I also loved the wake-up time contract that you had with your nieces that they had to 7.30. The idea of waiting until 7.30 in the morning on a Sunday is so luxurious to me. I have two toddlers. So I really respected that. Right? No, and they talk about rule followers, are really big mini rule followers, right? Because I got in like past midnight the night before. And if you see their pictures, their photographs in the book. Yeah, I love the picture of that. Yeah, yeah. I wonder if you, I've written some, you know, personal things about my family too, and it's always a moment of do I share with them ahead of time?

27:26What kind of clearance do I have to get? What was that process like for you with different members of your family? It was a process, right? I mean, you know, many of us know this. You can live a public life but really want to hold on to your privacy. I have always tried to have a private life. And, you know, I remember my mother would say when we were growing, you know, that basically there's a big difference between a secret and what's private, right? and privacy is just about that it's yours, and if you choose to share it, you may, but you don't have to. Right. Right? And this is probably the first time I think that some people have been actually very surprised to see what I've written, because I am normally very private, but there were things I shared with a lot of candor in this book that is not my norm.

28:25And, yeah, and it was about talking to family and them being okay with it. Did you incorporate their notes or did this all come from a diary? I'm just always impressed with people's recall. And as I actually write in the acknowledgments, a lot of it was them helping me recreate certain moments because, you know, there's a lot of it also that was just – I mean, that's – a lot of the book is also about just having the time to breathe and reflect on what happened because I'm not – I am task-oriented. And especially those 107 days, and it's not my nature probably to my, you know, a weakness of mine.