Mother’s Day Special With Candice Bergen

23:45Comprehensive. Witty. Speculative. Critical. Insightful. Profound. Wide-ranging. Hopefully doesn't take itself too, too seriously. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, my colleagues and I try to make sense of what's happening in this chaotic world. I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts. The thoughtful. Exquisite. Just, you know, real.

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25:21How are you doing, Toto? I'm good. Are you so excited to be here? So excited. Do you love the traffic? Love. I can't get enough traffic. Did you come here last time you did the podcast, or was it by Zoom? I don't remember. Seriously? No. You did it with Sarah Jessica Parker around and just like that. Well, that was years ago, honey. Like two? Yeah, two years ago. And I don't think we came here. Oh, SJP was on Zoom. You were here. Ah, well. And you loved it. I loved it? Well, no, clearly not.

26:02This is our Mother's Day episode. Okay. And it's all about what we learn from our mothers. And you are turning 80. Oh, God, honey. The day after Mother's Day. What do you mean, oh, God, honey? You just gave two interviews about it, AARP and People. That was your news bag. And you told AARP turning 80 isn't what it used to be. Yeah, but it's still 80. Why is it not what it used to be? Well, because we've extended these deadlines. I mean, turning 40, we extended to 60, and 60, we extended to 80. And so we've given life extensions and life to these major birthdays that used to me. I mean, really, when I was in school, turning 30 was like the end of your life.

27:00Wow. 30. Really? Yes. Because why? You were done giving, like, childbearing? I don't know. There was no reason. I was like in seventh or eighth grade, but it was like, oh, she's 30, you know, she's almost dead. Interesting. When I, Greta, I observed the Greta Gerwig interview with Anna and Meryl. Greta was saying that she finds it very impressive that Meryl and Anna are still women in the full of their power, even though they're past childbearing age. Because typically, historically, women's power was only about their ability to have children. And once they passed that zone, we were no longer of use.

27:44Exactly. Do you feel powerful? I feel like I'm grateful for the extension. How old was Franu when she died? 84. She was an old 80. That felt different. I mean, she looked great, but she was old. Franu is what I called my grandmother, Toto's mother. And Toto is what my children call Candace. I love it. One day when Artie was about 18 months old, he said, Toto! And it stuck.

28:22What are you doing for your birthday, which is the day before Mother's Day? I don't know. Can. I was relying on you to come up with something. You don't know what you're doing? Well, I'm having a party the day before. So you do know. Well, the day before, but not my actual birthday. Okay. Well, what are you doing for your general birthday? My general birthday, I'm having 50 people to a club. Well, not a nightclub. No, a club, a dinner club. And there are 50 people that I'm close to. You'll make a speech. It's a really relaxing, easy week for me I won't be tired at all After not sleeping Monday and Tuesday True, but you can do it Yeah Yes, Candace's birthday and Mother's Day are always Right after the Met Gala So it's really fun And then Artie's birthday is the next week Yeah So we're working on CB80 and Artie 6.

29:29Yes. And we can combine me with Artie and push it a week. Ken, are you crazy? We've had this booked for months. Okay. Also, he's having a bounce house. Oh. These are different parties, is just my point. I could be in a bounce house. Okay. What is your dream Mother's Day? Frankly, just being in the country with you and my grandkids is... I was trying to think, What have we done historically on Mother's Day? Not much except like go out to a meal. Well, you've done a lot for me by having kids. I never would have asked you to have kids, but I was so grateful that you did. You always say this. I never asked.

30:14And yet. And yet. I made up for it. What did you do with Friannu growing up for Mother's Day? Was Mother's Day a thing when you were little, or was it a Hallmark holiday? It was a Hallmark holiday. So there was no celebrating? No. I mean, you'd do a card. You'll do flowers. A dinner. I mean, a dinner in the dining room. Last time you were on the podcast, it was with Sarah Jessica Parker to talk about playing Enid Frick reprised. Enid Frick was a Vogue editor on Sex and the City, both the series and the movie. and people on the internet were very quick to point out that Enid's role was similar to my new role at Vogue.

31:00What do you think about that? Well, I think that's true. What could Enid teach us? How to dress, basically, but you're doing so well. You know, Enid was really fun to play, and she was a little frosty and aloof, so you don't have that at all, thank God. But it was sort of fun to play. Your first Vogue cover was in 1967. Do you remember this? I sort of do. It was, you had a big bouffant. I had so many hair pieces. I had like 40 hair pieces. Then did you leave wearing the hair pieces and walk around with them in? No. Or you had them taken all out? I had them all taken out. I sort of like when people leave shoots with their hair in from the shoot.

31:54But it's not theirs. Oh, that's true because they're expensive. Yeah. And you can't just walk out with it. With thousands of dollars worth of blonde hair. Yeah, thousands of dollars of hair. You're so conscientious. I am conscientious. It was the cover and it was sort of you leaning forward with a big bouffant of hair pieces and it was called The American Woman in 1967 shot by Burt Stern. Yeah. Did you remember anything about that shoot? I remember I liked Burt Stern a lot. He had a great sense of humor. He was very smart and fun to work with. I remember we went to a club afterward with him. We met his wife.

32:33What club? I don't know. A club. Like Studio 54? No. Like the Cosmopolitan Club. No, there was a club called The Club. And it was a small place over on the east side. And it was very intimate and it was fun. Okay. Actually, I went to Studio 54 last night for Rocky Horror. Really? With Sam Cochran. And we were marveling how close it is to 222. Did you used to go to Studio 54 a lot? Absolutely not. Never? Once. Once? Yeah. With who? I don't even know. I went with a group of people. I was overwhelmed. You don't remember anything else? I just remember there was so much going on. Bianca was there. Jacker.

33:17On a horse? No, she was not on a horse that night, but there might have been a horse there unattached to Bianca. But, I mean, there was just so much happening that it was clearly a place I didn't belong. Hmm. Why? I was just overwhelmed. But you did go to the club with Burt Stern. Do you remember other times shooting for Vogue? Yeah, I remember with Avedon shooting a few times. I loved Dick Avedon. Always in studio or ever on location? No, with Avedon, always in studio. Who's the photographer who you've been most inspired by the way they work? My friend Mary Ellen Mark, who is no longer with us, but who was a great photojournalist.

34:05And I met her in college. She was a few years older than I was, but she was already a photographer and a very good one and was very generous with what she'd learned and taught me how to print. Did she inspire you to become a photojournalist? Yes, but at the time, photojournalism was getting a cachet, a sort of energy to it, and it was being discovered and photojournalists were being discovered. So it was kind of like a new medium. Because then you started working. Did you ever work for one magazine completely or you were taking assignments for different magazines? No, I just took freelance assignments.

34:47Well, we were just talking about when you shot for Women's Home Journal. With Jane Goodall, who died last year. And you stayed with her for a week, right? Or longer than that? Ten days. In Tanzania on? Lake Gombe. What were your living accommodations? They were very simple. I had a, Jane lived, I lived in the guest hut. And Jane lived in another hut further down the beach. We were both on the beach of the lake, Lake Tanganyika, actually. And I just had a hut. There was no sink. It was a window and four walls and a door with a heavy screen because in the morning I had a couple of bananas on my nightstand for dinner.

35:34And the baboons would come in the morning and rattle the door to get to the bananas. Because they could smell the bananas or they could see them? Yes, because they could smell the bananas. Wow. And they wanted them. So did I. Okay. So I threw the bananas. I opened the door crack and I threw the bananas down the beach. And then when they ran to get the bananas, I escaped and I ran in the opposite direction to the camp. So you didn't get your bananas. No, I didn't. But I got other bananas because we had a lot of bananas. That's what we ate. What was the daily routine like for Jane? Well, she would follow the chimps.

36:17Okay. And baboons or just chimps? No, she was not a bab person. In order for Jane to get funding for her research station, which she needed to fund, she had to agree with Stanford to accept a certain small amount of students who were studying that kind of biology, animal biology. So some of the students were BAB students, which was not considered these. That was the lesser? It was a lesser group. It was like sort of you didn't want to belong to the BAB group, even though the BABs were more interesting because they were lively and they moved around. They were livelier than chimpanzees? Oh, yeah.

36:58Chimpanzees would sit for hours and groom. They would pick fleas off each other and eat them like Ritz crackers. And so it was much more lazy and relaxing to be a chimp person, even though they were at the top of the heap. So Jane Goodall was a chimp person, and she would only do chimps, but the other Stanford students that she liked less were the BAB people. I don't know that she chose the people to go in those groups. And I don't think she would have expressed favoritism in that way. But yes, there was a definite sort of we look down on the bad people. Well, I was interested in reading the article because you talk about how Jane borrowed parenting techniques from the baboons and the chimpanzees.

37:53What were those? Well, for instance, she had her son Grub, Grublin, I think his full name was, and he grew up on Lake Tanganyika. And he didn't have any other kids there, so he would play often with chimps and babs. And he would branch wave, which is a classic sort of chimp courtship. And so I would see Grub sort of branch waving at a chimp down the beach. Where's Grub now? Well, he's probably 50 or more. Did that give you any insight into parenting? No. You've got guts.

38:38Were you ever regretful that you stopped doing photojournalism? You know, I wasn't good enough to keep doing it and to do it at the level I wanted to do it. But I loved when I was doing it, and I worked for the Today Show, which I love because I would do a different piece every week. I did the Ku Klux Klan and Muhammad Ali, who was really interesting and fun to do. I did sort of who I wanted, which was great. And you're supposed to be doing a book of your photos. Am I? How's that going? It was due during COVID. Yeah. Yeah. I was just looking at the pages today and thinking, I better get moving on this.

39:22That poor editor. Yeah. I'm so grateful it's not me. Yes, I know. Me too. And you know what else I just realized? What? You were on the cover of Playboy when I was four. Chloe, I was on the cover of Playboy, fully dressed. I was in like a tuxedo or something. I know. They were known for their articles at the time. Yeah. I'm just saying. I didn't register that as a four-year-old. It's nothing I would have volunteered. Well, but in it, I was very amused that in the interview, you talked about how much you respect Diane Sawyer and that she was someone that you really looked up to as a woman working in journalism.

40:09And now she's one of your closest friends. Yeah. So you could show her that. Centerfold.

40:17Do you remember other women at that time that you looked up to as women whose careers you wanted to emulate? I remember Katie Couric was someone who was very appealing and very smart. And then she started her own company and it ran like clockwork. And I always was very impressed by Katie Couric. And also in that interview, which I'd never heard before, you said that Edgar, your father, used to say all beautiful women he knew were unhappy. He said more than that. He said they get in trouble and who are unhappy. And so, Isid, I want you to always focus on your other interests, which I ultimately did.

41:11Interesting.

41:15The run-through will be back in a moment.

41:30Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford. And I'm John Ross. And we're the hosts of Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. And just because the Oscars are done, for now, doesn't mean we are. Join us every week for coverage of the biggest stories in Hollywood, interviews with today's brightest stars, and so much more. Listen to Little Gold Men every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

42:03Are you going to read Liza Minnelli's? I've read it. You did? Yeah. And I've known Liza since I was seven. And so I read it right away. And I love that Vincent Minnelli, Liza's father, who is a wonderful director, used to have miniature versions of all the costumes for his movies made for Liza to dress up in with her friends. Yes. Which now, when I see these sort of polyester bell dresses that Alice gets. That's not what lies in it. Very. This was this Edith Head. Really? Roll in her grave. They were Edith Head miniatures. Oh, my God. So what would you dress up as? Which characters? Well, honey.

42:47You can do it. No, I can't. I don't know. Someone from Gone with the Wind. He didn't direct Gone with the Wind? He didn't have to. Okay. He could just pick things out of movies. Gigi. Was Liza one of the people that you would go to the Beverly Hills coffee shop with? No. Okay. I went with Roxy Johnson. Okay. Her father was Nunley Johnson, who wrote The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit. He was a writer. I don't know what that is. It was a great movie, a great classic at the time. and he was a writer-director. Okay. Very educated, interesting, funny guy. And Roxy, I haven't seen for 100 years, but she— But you used to walk your—or bike down to the Beverly Hills Hotel.

43:35Yeah. With your dogs, which sounds so dangerous. Well, you know, it was—Beverly Hills was different then. There wasn't the sort of crush of cars. Was that when you were riding your horse down Sunset, or that was Edgar? No, that was Edgar. You're not that old. I am that old. But that's amazing that he, that Sunset Boulevard, you could ride horses. He would ride down Sunset and he would ride down Rodeo, which has a lovely divider or had. And, yeah, he would ride down Sunset to the beach. Wow. That is unbelievable. Well, L.A. in the old days, in the 30s and 40s, was a different place. Well, yeah, but I mean, that's really, you know, everyone has been talking about JFK Jr.

44:25on Murphy Brown. That soundstage when he did the Murphy Brown, he did it to promote George, which was his magazine that was then coming, had the first issue coming out. And you couldn't get in the stage because the women from all over the Warner Brothers lot were clogging the doorways. It was like. And was he very charming? He was so charming and so modest and so handsome. God, he was handsome. And he was a lovely guy. What was his role on Murphy Brown? He played my assistant for a quick minute. Which was one of the running jokes. Yes, which was one of the running gags on the show. Many people played Murphy's assistant.

45:13We just went to the SNL taping a couple of weeks ago. Yes, you did. Where you inducted Jack Black into the Five Timers Club. Five Timers Club is people who have hosted Saturday Night Live five times. And you and Tina Fey are, as Lorne Michaels says, local hires. So whenever he needs someone inducted, you're his first port of call. But you were the first woman to host SNL, which at the time I'm sure you didn't feel like as big a deal because it had just started. I did the third show. Wow. What did people think of it back then? You know, it took a while for the show to be discovered. I think Paul Simon hosted the first show, which was a Thanksgiving show, and he was dressed as a turkey and sang Still Crazy After All These Years, which I thought was brilliant.

46:07And then I did the third show. And, of course, it was the purest terror. Lauren said I look like Patty Hearst when she opened the door to the SLA. It was like, gah. Who was on the cast then, the first cast? Gilda. Okay. Gilda Radner, John Belushi, Chevy Chase, Danny Aykroyd. Do you remember any of your first sketches? No, honey. Yes, you do. Like the bee in Rock Center? Yes, I do remember the bees. That was maybe the second show I did. Okay. Can you tell us about that? Well, we did a sketch where I was dressed as Sonia Henney in her figure in a sort of red velvet with feathers on the bottom and ice skates.

46:58And we did a bee capades and the other cast members were dressed as bees, of course. And we just skated around flailing because none of us could really skate. But there was the ice rink right below the studio. So we used it. We, Lorne, used it. And that was it. And then you dressed me as a bee as one of my first Halloween costumes in a full arc. That's right. I had amazing Halloween costumes. You did? The costume designer for Murphy Brown would make my Halloween costumes. I remember. Not unlike Vincent Minnelli. You really used, you flexed your power. That's right. That's right. Yeah. She made me a great Lucille Ball costume once.

47:47I remember that. That was sort of a... And Shane. My poor friend Shane had to be Ethel. She was really a good sport because it didn't do her any favors. Well, she was seven. But yes, my Halloween costumes were very high value. They were. They were. I would go, if she didn't make it herself, she would take me to the Warner Brothers costume stage and look for tiny versions of things. I loved going to the Murphy set when I was little. You thought it was an office. Yeah, and I would explore sort of all the dark tunnels and things. And you'd climb up the ladders. You'd be on the rig. It was insane that I let you do that.

48:36And Lois would come? She wouldn't do that. No, but she would come a lot, which is insane that you also did that. Lois was our dog. Yes, our great dog. Well, I know, but I just, you know, on a soundstage, I don't know that most soundstages let people bring their dogs. No, but we were a very successful show, and Warner Brothers was resting on our laurels at the moment. Okay, okay. So I took full advantage. I also felt like it was a great example of you were very much, it was a nice family that Murphy had. Yes, lovely. And you were a great leader of that, but also other people really led that in a lovely way.

49:16And you're still in touch with so many of those people. I'm still close friends with Diane English, who created and wrote Murphy Brown. She wrote the first four years. And I'm friendly. I love Faithy Ford, and I love Joe Rigelbuto, but I haven't seen him. Grant. Grant Shaw, I love, and he's sort of in some place in the depths of Pennsylvania. Says someone who's never been to Pennsylvania. He went to school there. Oh, that's true. Briefly.

49:54Did you feel like you were always sort of leading on a set you were on? I ask this because when I recently interviewed Meryl with Anna, Greta Gerwig said that Meryl is always such a great leader on sets. And she said, I try to be, except when I did a movie with Candace, when I did a movie with Candace, she and Diane Wiest ganged up on me. She said it was like wrestling, and I loved it. So I guess that's, you're just sort of leaning in when you're on set. Well, sometimes. On shrinking, which you were just on briefly, who was the leader of the shrinking set? It was a fairly equitable set. I mean, it was Harrison Ford, it was Jason Segel, and they were lovely.

50:42It was a lovely set to work on. Krista Miller. Who we knew way back when because she used to date Grant Shod when they were both kids. So that was very fun to sort of rediscover her later in life. What were your non-negotiables with Warner Brothers about when you would be available to do parenting stuff? Say what? Like I now am always figuring out how much I'm going to say no to things at work. I'm going to take the kids to school, but it means I'm going to get in at 930, which is late. I'm going to leave at 530 so I can be home by 6, but then I do feel like then I have to get back online at 8 p.m.

51:28when the kids go to bed. But there are certain things that are my non-negotiables that I want to be there for. I would be there every morning at 930 after I took you to school. You always drove carpool. Yes. And then I would be home by 5.30, maybe 6, except for Thursday and Friday nights. Friday nights were very late. Yes, because we shot the show that night. You would get home at like 2 or later, right? I know. I know. And you'd be up sometimes, and we'd watch TV movies. At 2 a.m.? No, more at like midnight. Wow. Wow. Well, I always loved that you would have either my fake Aunt Bea or my uncle, who I called Zoo, stay over.

52:12And then I would make French toast with Bea in the morning and then you would sort of come out after you'd been up all night, basically. Were there any things that you wish you'd done differently or any times that you had to sort of push back on the studio or the show about when you could be available? There were physical demands of the show that you couldn't change. I mean, you had to shoot a play a week, but they bent over backwards to accommodate my schedule, and they would come with schedules, and they would say, okay, so this is when you can get there Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and then Thursday.

52:53You're home by this and this, and then we would have dinner at Orso's on the weekend. That's true. Which was lovely. We were just talking about that with Artie, because I would always have a Polly Pocket. And now he has like a Ninja Turtle Polly Pocket he's very proud of. Are there any parenting decisions you regret? I mean, it was certainly demanding to do a show and be the kind of present parent that I wanted to be. But look at you.

53:29and I felt that I was present in ways that mattered and on a continuous basis. I always remember you also saying about Poppy, my father, that when he was present, he also was, he was not often present, but when he was, he was really in it. Like if he was building a sandcastle, he was on his knees building a sandcastle, Whereas you had other friends who, if they were with their kids, they were also on the phone. And they were also, you know, talking to someone else. And I always felt with you that you were fully there with me and never frustrated or impatient about that, but always very grateful to be present.

54:14And I try to remember that because I'm often frustrated with my children. But I also try to, like, have my phone in a different room for an hour of bedtime. But it's hard. And I do feel like it's this moment in my life that's so full and I'm so grateful for it. But I'm just exhausted all the time. And I feel like you— Yeah, you are. And you got sick whenever the show ended. Yeah, because I would save it up. Which I think happens to a lot of people. But, I mean, we would – the show would end usually like the night before my spring break. And then we would leave. And because you didn't think there was enough culture in L.A., we would go – Well, there wasn't.

54:56To Moscow. And you'd be like quite sick in a tour of the Kremlin. And it was – it took its toll on you. And I apologize. But – No, I mean, it's hard that you – we could have just gone to Hawaii, but you stuck it out. Why go to Hawaii when you could fly L.A. to Moscow?

55:23What is your favorite part about being a grandparent? That was your biggest gift. I just love those two kids. I love them to death. And they are so different one from another and so filled with life and love. I love getting to re-experience the joys of all that. Do you think parenting is different now than it was when I was little? Do you think people are stricter now or there's more going on or has the philosophy around raising kids changed dramatically? I think that it sort of veered away from the strictness and now it's come back to it. Were you very strict? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Huh. I don't really remember that.

56:11You complained about it. Oh, you remember any examples? No, I just remember that you would say, you know, other parents don't do that. And other parents don't make their kids come home that early. And I said, well, that's what you're stuck with. Lovely. We went to Disneyland this Christmas. We did. Which was very exciting. And you announced that it was your last time that you were going to Disneyland. Yes, that's correct. Can you tell me about your first time going to Disneyland? Well, Uncle Walt was there.

56:51I went to the opening of Disneyland with my parents. When you were how old? Maybe 10, 11. I think we looked it up and it was 56, so you must have been 10. And I remember what I was wearing. What did you wear when you were 10 years old to the opening of Disneyland? I wore a crisp red Oxford cloth shirt with suspenders stitched on. I loved it. And jeans or slacks would have been slacks with my mother there. Do you have a first fashion memory? I remember modeling when I was 15 or 16. I started to earn my own money. and just putting on what seemed like grown-up clothes, women's suits and stockings and thinking, ooh, what a lot of trouble.

57:47But you liked it. It was interesting the first few times, and then it faded. I remember when I, I think when I was like 15 and saw Almost Famous, and I said, were you a hippie? And you said, I was a well-dressed hippie. Yes, I was. What does that mean? It means that I gave it some thought and that the beads were nice ones and the blouses were silk and, you know. Okay. This weekend, Artie's very focused on dungeons and people being locked up. And so you were telling Artie about the time you got arrested. Oh, God. Would you like to share with our listeners? Oh, God. I was arrested. I don't remember when it was.

58:40Do you know when it was? It must have been in the 60s. It wasn't for Vietnam. Yeah. I was arrested with a group of us were arrested for obstructing the Senate corridor by lying down was, I believe, the charge. What were you wearing then? I was wearing pants and a blouse. Was it an organized group? Yeah, it was an organized group. What group? I don't remember, honey. And then we were put in a paddy wagon and taken to jail and booked. But no handcuffs or zip tie? No, I don't think there were handcuffs. I would have remembered that. But then we were in a jail cell for— In D.C. In Washington, D.C., for longer than I would have thought.

59:26With any other people in jail or just you and the group you came in with? Well, there were other people in jail, but we were in one cell. Anyone you met or hung out with? Terry Garr was one of them. Really? Yes. She was in your group? Yeah. I didn't know that. And the prison matron who was telling us to be quiet, and she said, who does your hair? No. Yes. To you or Terry? No. Terry said that to the prison matron. Oh, my God. And what did the prison matron say? She just gave her a look. Did you, was that your only time in prison? Yes, it was. Have you ever gotten a ticket? Yeah. For what? Probably speeding on Santa Monica.

1:00:14I ask because you're a very fast driver. Yeah, it was for speeding. Well, and once when I was learning to drive, my uncle was teaching me, and I rolled through a stop sign. He said, what are you doing? And I said, oh, the stop sign is just a suggestion. It's what mama says. And he was horrified. I took certain liberties, but I would never do that now. Sure. I would never drive now. Well, it's for conversation.

1:00:50How did you make certain decisions about how much I was going to be exposed to your work and celebrity? Because we recently, the Scandinavian actress Renata Reinsva was on the podcast and she was talking about not taking her child to premieres even though they wanted to go. And you always were very strict that I was not allowed to ever do that with you. And other people were and I felt very excluded. But do you feel that was the right decision? I did. Yes, I did. And I stand behind it. I do remember you took me to the premiere of Oliver and Company, the animated Disney movie, when I was like four.

1:01:33And that was very exciting. That was fun. We just had Alice's fourth unicorn birthday at our apartment. I know. You threw me amazing birthday parties. Do you remember some of the parties you threw? Some of them I do. You rented a theater at Disney. Yeah. For my fifth birthday. To see Snow White. which actually is a terrifying movie for five-year-olds. I know. It was a terrible idea. But then we came back to the house and Snow White character was there. So that was very exciting. But no, we had great parties growing up. There was a game that Andy Cohen plays on his show about how well, have you ever met this person?

1:02:17And he was sort of holding up different people and you were doing it. And it made us think about different, some of the great American designers. And I want to know if you remember the first time you wore an Oscar de la Renta dress and met Oscar. Well, I'd known Oscar socially and had dinner at his and Francois' house. So I knew him and he was the most charming, the most lovely, handsome man. And so... What about Ralph Lauren? Well, he was always, I mean, I've known him since he made ties. You knew him as Ralph Lipschitz? No. I knew him as Ralph Lauren, but he was in Chicago. Oh, wow. And I was working in Chicago.

1:03:05What were you doing in Chicago? I don't know. A movie. And I met him, and then he branched out, needless to say. He really branched out. Into everything. And you wore a lot of Ralph Lauren for a long time. You still do. Yeah, I love his stuff. stuff. Did you ever meet Irving Penn? Yes. It was not a success. In what way? I was booked to be photographed by Irving Penn. And he said, I can't work with her. And he released me. Wow. What was it for? I think it was for Vogue. I don't remember. Oh, my God. And he said, But she's not giving me anything. Wow. What did you say? Did you just slink out? Yeah.

1:03:49Oh. Yeah, it was not, you didn't say anything. You just went. Wow. Were you bruised to the core? No, but I remembered. Wow. When did you meet Johnny Versace? I met him at a club in New York. I don't remember which club. All these clubs? Yeah, there were at the time a lot of clubs. And he contacted me. He sent me flowers to your apartment and asked me if I wanted to meet them for dinner. And so I did. And he was lovely. Where did you go to dinner? A club. Well, and then he sent a Christmas cactus to you when I was born as a birth gift. Yes. Which lasted like 30 years. Yes. Which is amazing. Yeah.

1:04:43When did you first meet Giorgio Armani? I don't think I ever did. Interesting. But you wore his clothes a lot. Yeah. What about Donna Karan? I wore a lot of Donna on Murphy and loved her stuff and thought it was very flattering and cut well. And I loved her suits and her dresses. And Bill Blass? Well, that great leopard print Bill Blass. The leopard with Bill Blass. Did you know him? A little bit. What about Hubert de Givenchy? I don't think I ever met Hubert. What about Valentino? No. Well, I met him, but I didn't know him. Okay. You're going to hate this, but you're going to be strong. Oh, boy.

1:05:34What's coming? We're playing a game of how, like a newlyweds game, how well we know each other. Oh, man. We're just going to do it so fast, and then you're going to be so grumpy that we're going to stop. All right. What was my first job? Your first job? Yes. This is going to go so poorly. Was it in New York? No. Was it on the set? No. What was it? It was probably waitressing in Paris when I was living there. Oh, you're right. In your red suede boots. Yeah, I loved those boots. Yep. Yeah. Okay, what's your first question? Who do I think is the funniest comedian? Well, I'm going to guess right now you think Gene Smart is a great comedian.

1:06:20Yes, I do. I love Gene Smart. And you were very impressed by Jack Black. You thought he was a great comedian. Yeah, and I liked him. He was fun on the show. What is my favorite movie to watch with Artie and Alice? I don't know. What's your favorite movie to watch with Artie and Alice then? We watch cartoons. We watch... You watch a lot of Tom and Jerry. A lot of Tom and Jerry, but there's not one dominant Tom and Jerry. So true. All right, what's your next question? How many times have I been on the cover of Vogue? Next. All right, what's the next question? What year did I become homecoming queen?

1:07:0063. I'm supposed to answer. I'm supposed to see how, whatever, keep going. But you weren't homecoming queen.

1:07:11What is my favorite gift that you've ever given me? A piece of jewelry. Well, so many things. You're such a wonderful jewelry fairy, but I do love the bracelet that I have to get fixed that you got me for my 21st birthday with all of my nicknames engraved in it, the Aurora Lopez one. What is my favorite vacation that we've been on together? Russia. I did love Russia. Good job. All right. What's the next one you have? What was my favorite book I read as a child? I have no idea. Treasure Island. Oh, really? Interesting. Artie would probably like that. Yeah, he would. He would love it. What is one stop I have to always go to when I'm in Paris?

1:07:52The hot chocolate place. Angelina? That's when I was 10. Well. No. Where do you like to go? I love to go to the Dries Van Noten store. I love to go to Justine's apartment. I love to go to the souffle place that the Zilkas took us to. Yeah. I love to go to the Grande Pisserie at the Beaumarchais. I love to get kids clothes at Monoprix. What's my favorite restaurant in New York?

1:08:26Not Gabriel's. I like Gabriel's. but that's sort of your favorite restaurant. Yes. I love going to Brooklyn Diner with the kids. I love the Odeon. I love Cafe Luxembourg. I love Barney Greengrass. I've never been to any of those with you, so I don't know. You don't like to go below 59th Street. Yes, to go with you I do. Thank you, Toto, for coming on the pond. Happy Mother's Day. Thank you, Toto. I'm not Toto. I thought we were both Toto. I'm not Toto. It's the grandparent name. Okay. Thank you, Bunny.

1:09:12The Run Through with Vogue is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Alex John Burns with help from Emily Elias. The show is engineered by Bran Bandi and mixed by Mike Kutchman. Bye.

1:09:29I'm Jazzy Sefciak. And I'm Shilpa Oskokovic. And we're senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appetit and the hosts of the Bon Appetit Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers. We love to bake. Some might even call the two of us obsessive. And we love to talk about all the hows and whys and what didn't work that come with it. Every month, we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll go bake, send us any questions you have. And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. And this month we're making strawberry roll cake.

1:10:04It is the unofficial birthday cake of the Bon Appetit Test Kitchen. And it is the perfect way to welcome spring. Head to BA.com and come and bake along with us. Send us your questions, pictures, and any thoughts to BakeClub at BonAppetit.com. Or find us on the sub stack. Join us the first Tuesday of every month as we debrief about our latest bake. Find BA Bake Club wherever you get your podcasts. Happy baking!