Pieter Mulier and Alaïa Take New York City

0:28This is The Run Through, and I'm Nicole Phelps. fashion news, and sometimes we'll feature conversations with designers, like the one we have today with Peter Moulier, the creative director of Aliyah. Oh, I'm so excited for that. You're the cat who got the cream this New York Fashion Week. That is the interview we all want to hear. Yes, and he is such a good talker. Oh, I'm so excited. The Aliyah show was really, I felt like, this magical fashion moment. So, very eager to hear that. But quickly, I want to hear everything you know about the Sarah Burton Givenchy News. It went live at 2 a.m. New York time, but you are obviously on top of it.

1:07We are lucky to have colleagues working at Vogue Business in London who were able to take that news and run with it. And everyone at Vogue is obviously delighted. We were crazy for her work at Alexander McQueen, where she worked for decades, first alongside Lee McQueen and then on her own. And when Sarah left McQueen and was replaced by a young man, there was, you know, a hue and cry in fashion about the lack of women in top design roles. And now, you know, less than a year later, we have her back at a French house. And the best part is, is that Givenchy is a couture house. So we will be able to see her doing amazing work at the couture level, which, you know, she was sort of doing at McQueen, but without the, you know, without all the resources that she'll have at Givenchy.

2:01So, Nicole, forgive me, but why is Givenchy, why would you go from McQueen to Givenchy? Is it because it's a more historic house? Is it because it's a bigger house with more resources? Is it because of the couture? Like, what's the thought process there? Because when she left, it felt, I feel like her position at the time was, I'm burnt out. I want more time in my family. Is this just an offer you can't refuse? I think so. I think she wanted to work always. And this is a chance for her to chart her own course. Like I said, she worked at McQueen for decades. And she is obviously at Givenchy joining a long line of creative directors.

2:47You know, recently there's been a lot of churn there. So there is a long history, but it's not the kind of history that McQueen had. There's so many of us in fashion now who remember Lee McQueen's work very vividly. And Hubert de Givenchy was a designer working in the 50s and the 60s and most famous for creating clothes for Audrey Hepburn. So the vibe of the house, I guess you could say, is a little fuzzier and she will be able to put her own stamp on it. It's exciting to imagine her, you know, doing her in a way as opposed to doing her version of McQueen. Interesting. Well, that's a good point that she always sort of came into his shadow a bit, even though I feel like she's one of the most universally beloved designers.

3:38It's true, especially by women. She makes, I think, the most beautiful tailoring out there, just really exquisite, beautiful workmanship. The cut is always to die for. And then, of course, just out of this world, evening wear. And, you know, we've had Kate Young on this show before, and I know she told you about the dearth of, you know, evening gowns for the red carpet. And she actually repeated the same thing to me yesterday at a dinner that Aliyah did at the Brandt Foundation. And I'm sure she woke up this morning happy, knowing that Sarah will be making evening dresses again. Well, and she also, Givenchy is a LVMH maison, and they do not have very many women running their houses, right?

4:31It's only like five? Yes. Maria Grazia, of course, at Dior. Camille Michelli at Pucci. Sylvia Fendi at Fendi, who works alongside Kim Jones, and Stella McCartney. Wow. And so when will Sarah's debut collection be? In March. Oh, wow. So soon. Okay, great. She started work today, it sounds like. Oh, my God. All right. Well, speaking of exquisite and evening dresses, let's talk about the Aliyah show in New York. It was at the Guggenheim Museum. What was your takeaway? Well, it's such a great experience. There's never been a fashion show at the Guggenheim. And Peter said in my interview with him that if he was going to come to New York, which is a very special occasion for the brand, Aliyah himself showed in New York in the early 80s, but it really hasn't been back here since, that he wanted to do it in a place that felt special and had meaning.

5:31And Peter is very interested in art, and he loved the idea of doing it there. And, you know, it's such an iconic space. I also felt like the show was one of those—sometimes, often, I feel like fashion editors are always grumpy and complaining about Fashion Week. And then there are certain moments where you look up and you realize that you're part of this magical thing that you should be so grateful for. And being seated in the lobby on sort of on the ground floor of the Guggenheim, looking up at the Frank Lloyd Wright spiral and then waiting, everyone quietly waiting, sort of pin drop quiet. Everyone had sort of reached their point of chatter.

6:13And then I was sitting next to the Wall Street Journal team and someone whispered. They said, Rihanna was just one word. And then that Wall Street Journal reporter was like, who else could make this room wait? And it's true. It was everyone in fashion was in this room waiting for 40 minutes. And then Rihanna glided in. And it was it just felt like a very starry major fashion moment. It was like Venus on the half shell. I think you put it in your post. You know, she's she's something. And the clothes were were beautiful. Yes. Inspired by the Guggenheim. Think of that that chubby. And it was cut into channels that spiraled.

6:55And then there were those incredible sort of evening jackets that were literally little tenderly spirals. And he had more of that, you know, very, very sculptural pieces, the evening pieces at the end, which I thought was so fascinating that they open and close sort of like a clasp bracelet. You literally snap yourself into them. Oh, wow. Interesting. Sculpture. Sculpture to wear. All right. And then he also was thinking a lot about American design. Aliyah was crazy for American design and collected a lot of it. And designers like Halston, Pauline Trigere, and Charles James. And so Peter's idea was to reinterpret some of those iconic pieces in a really modern way.

7:44It was very athletic, I thought. But it looks – you know, walk around the streets and you see women in their jog bras and leggings. And he really had a sense for that, I think, and worked it into the Alaya vocabulary. And I like that he told you – because I love his sort of off-duty sort of chic dad uniform that he wears. But apparently he wears two white T-shirts because it gives him more of a shoulder volume. Yes, more body. Oh, I love that. What a tip. Yes. So tell me about your interview with him. Was it here in the studio? No, we were in the Sterrett Lehigh building, 601 West 26, where they had rented space to do fittings.

8:27So we waited for about an hour while he was, you know, finalizing some looks. And there was a lot of energy coming from the room next door. The music was loud. But he wrapped that up. I got to take a look at some of the clothes, and we sat down for an hour as the sun was setting over the Hudson. And it was a beautiful conversation. He is a really thoughtful designer and knows everything there is to know about Aliyah and about much more. You know, he's a real student of fashion history, and it comes through in our conversation, and it comes through in his collections as well, I think. He's Belgian?

9:09Yes. Okay. I think of him a lot paired with Raph Simmons because he was Raph's right hand for many years. Yes. In fact, Raph sort of discovered him at his college final presentation. And he tells a funny story where Raph came up to him and said, I don't think you're an architect because he was studying architecture. I think you're a designer. Yes. And Peter said, no, I'm an architect. Oh, my God. Raph handed him his card and then, you know, a few months later he was working for Raph where he – and went on to work with him for years at his own label when he moved to Jill Sander, when he moved to Christian Dior, and when he moved to New York to work on Calvin Klein.

9:55Wow. Well, I mean, now that you say he studied architecture, it sort of makes sense with how sculptural and structured his pieces are. And also, doesn't he live in his beautiful modernist home in Antwerp? I feel like everyone was so jealous when he had his show there. Yes, but anyone who is experiencing jealousy should go straight to Vogue.com because we have a brilliant video of his objects of affection from his house in Antwerp. That is really, really great. And you learn a lot about him through his collections and what his place is like. And I do feel like he's really infused Alaya with new life, which is what you want from a resurgence of a house like that or a renaissance of a house.

10:41Yes. We talk about this in the interview. His mesh ballet flats, some with rhinestones, have become the most copied shoe there is. The uniform of every woman at Vogue. Yes. And, you know, every brand has launched a version of that. And that is the surest sign of success, how influential you are across all parts of the market. it. So, Nicole, were there any exciting takeaways from this? Any news moments in the making? What did I learn about Peter and what did I love? Well, he's a massive reader. And he told me that he has read Donna Tartt's The Secret History 27 times. He reads it every summer.

11:24What? Yeah, I got a massive kick out of that. I love that book, too. And he also mentioned And a biography he read of a very famous designer. And I think anybody who's interested in succession and who's going where should listen in to that part of the podcast. It's like Wolf Hall over here.

11:48You'll have to listen. The run through will be right back in just a moment.

11:58Thank you.

12:28from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

12:47Welcome to the run through, Peter. Hi, Nicole. Thank you for joining me. It's a pleasure. so we are two rooms away from where you did fittings all day today you are here in new york for your alaya show and how are you feeling at the moment i'm very excited very very excited to be here it's four years ago that i that i've been here i've meant to come for four or five times and i cancel every time because i was too emotional to come back because i love the city so much. I lived here for three years, right before COVID. And I think from all cities I lived in, I was the happiest here. You were here when you were working at Calvin Klein.

13:31Yes, I was here for Calvin. And then when Calvin stopped, I was here for six months. So I lived the full New York life without working for six months. And then I had to come back. And we came back with a heavy heart back to Europe. So it's fantastic to be back. I forgot how much energy the city has. It's very exciting. It's exciting to come here with Alaya, for sure, because it makes sense. And it's exciting to do a show here in New York Fashion Week. And is it true that some of your team have never been to New York before? Yes, many. For many, it's the first time. So it creates this nice atmosphere in a creative team, it brings energy.

14:19It opens the horizons of everybody because we're used to working in four walls. It's the creative team. It's the studio with the atelier. So it's nearly like a family. We don't see each other often outside. It's always in these four walls of Paris. So to come as far as New York with them and live here together for a week, because basically that's it. And I always compare shows with Boy Scouts. It's really that you live this amount of time on top of each other. You do everything together. And it's good that we do it here. The show is at the Guggenheim. Yes. We're very, very lucky. Because the idea of coming to New York was already in my mind a year ago.

15:07and we were talking with the company with the company with the owner of doing a show or in new york or in london but my dream was new york because i do think the relationship with alaya and america is is very important it's where everything started for him in in 1981 82 the biggest partners were here and still now for us it's um a big part of our business because the american client understands very well what the dna of the brand is historically and still today so the last show we did in january during couture anna came to to to the backstage and she looked at the collection she said i think this is one that you should have shown in new york and she said why don't you come next season i think it will be a good idea for you guys And we talked about it and we organized it.

15:59And that's something I think for LA is important, that we like spaces where nobody has ever shown. And you said that you'll have students in attendance also. Yeah, we have 220 guests, which is basically not so much for a show. And we invited 150 students. And I quite like the idea that students see the collection before the press. I'm sorry, Nicole, but there's something quite beautiful that they discovered before because a fashion show is something quite elite nowadays, unfortunately. So I quite like the idea that they discover the girls and also for the girls, it's going to be quite different.

16:38It's a very democratic, very New York kind of way to do a show. Very American way of thinking. So talk more about the Americanness of this collection. Yeah. So I've been collecting American fashion for quite a long time since I lived in New York because it was easier to get to the pieces. So with the studio, with the creative team, I thought it was actually quite beautiful to bring the essence of American fashion to the collection, which is a sense of ease, which is a different kind of luxury than what we know in Europe. So it's the ease, it's the comfort that was number one. And then I looked quite literally here and there to some American designers that we haven't forgotten in Europe, but that don't really have the status of what a Dior has or a Chanel has.

17:35And for me, they're as important as them. So we looked at Charles James. We looked at Halston. For the shoes, we looked at Herbert Levine and his wife. We looked at Pauline Trigere. I don't even know how you say it. American Trigere. I think either is fine. She's a very important designer in the 50s. So it's actually basically like a mix match of everything I like from that culture, starting from the 30s up to, let's say, the 80s, because Halston was still there. There's some ease of real American fashion, like Calvin, but I don't want to say it so much. But there's an ease to the jerseys that we used, all of that.

18:18So for me and the team, it was interesting to work like that because normally we work very much on looks for a stage, of course, commercially also, but for a stage which don't really have the comfort or the ease that I relate to American fashion. The Run Through, which is our podcast, has a lot of very obsessive fashion people, but also people who don't know that much about fashion. So can you talk a little bit more about Alaya? What did he stand for in fashion? Alaya started his maison, if I can say it like that, his house in 1981. So that's the first time he brought a collection out. And I think that the first two years, let's say the first two collections already, were so revolutionary in the history of fashion because of two things.

19:16It was knitted and it was clingy in a completely different way because it was comfort. It was not like his peers back in the days. It gave women a certain sensuality that didn't exist back in the days. Or it was vulgar or it was on the edge of vulgar. And Asdine was never vulgar. It was always constructed. So it's a house based on sensuality and on a lot of oppositions. For instance, there's always a masculine and a feminine aspect at Aliyah, and that makes it so interesting. And I also think that's why it's never vulgar. They connect, but they also disconnect, which is very interesting. And as a man himself, one word that you've used before is this idea of the human.

20:05The human is very important at Aliyah. And he was pretty famous for having these dinner parties, right? In his atelier slash kitchen. So there was a real community around him. Yeah, basically, because I said maison and house, in the beginning, it was literally his house, which I liked a lot. And that's also very related to what it was historically. So you would have his atelier in the back of the kitchen. and he was Tunisian. So I think food and hosting and surrounding him with people socially was very important in his culture. So he used to do dinners every day, every day, lunches every day. He used to invite everybody around the table because food was very important to him.

20:57And also it was a way to connect socially with a lot of different people. But it came from a very positive thing he loved it he loved to invite people in his house and then show show everything around so it was a real personal human experience it was not distant uh snobbish yes but not distant uh for some people which which are like and it's it's still like that actually when you come to us we don't use the kitchen because it was of course his kitchen um but we we try to keep the human aspect to it and a small aspect to it the small is maybe not the word the intimate intimate yeah very intimate how would you say you try to do that in what ways um i try to do it with multiple things we do many dinners of course not in the kitchen but uh we try to get the human aspect like that that people are still invited and feel invited on a real on a real personal level not because you have to buy something that's what i mean in an honest way and then number two for instance i did a show in my house which is something i would never do but i thought asdin used to always show in his house on the ground floor uh and it's actually quite beautiful if i do the same so i opened my house in antwerp and we invited 150 people and the girls were just walking through my bedroom uh people were sitting on my bed people drinking in the kitchen so So I'm personally not really a designer that opens up easily to the fashion world.

22:33But I thought that was, for instance, a very good idea for me to do because it felt I could bring the brand a little bit closer to what Azzedine used to do. I think that show produced more FOMO among, as you say, snobby fashion people than any show I can think of in recent history. It was actually quite a fantastic experience. Also for me, because I was very nervous for it, because we didn't change anything in the apartment. We just arranged it a little bit different so we could put 150 people in. But it made me realize when I saw the people afterwards that were at the show, that the personal human aspect, as we said before, is so important.

23:16And basically, it's the emotion behind it. It touched me so much. And I thought, oh, my God, it's nice to see that fashion could still do something like that. Even when a lot of people have FOMO, FOMO is also an emotion behind it. So, I don't know. My psychologist said it was a good thing for me to open up. So, it worked in both directions. So, Aliyah did come to New York with his collections. Yeah, he came in, I think, 1982 for Bergdorf Goodman. he did the show at Bergdorf and then he came back in 1985 and he did a huge show in the Palladium the Palladium yeah he came twice so very soon after launching he was here in New York so as you say uh America really embraced him very quickly the real success of Azizine was here in the beginning America was the first especially New York um with the partners like Bergdorf They were the first to really get the concept of the King of Kling.

24:22So it helped his career. Since the beginning, they were very loyal. They were loyal until the end, actually. And also the two shows he did was a very big impact for American fashion. Well, I did some research on the Palladium show, and it was a pretty crazy crowd, right? Andy Warhol was there. Crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy. and actually the day no we show on friday on sunday we have a dinner at the brand foundation ah connections uh which is being made yeah and peter brand was a very good friend of of of as dean so he invited us uh to his foundation so we do a dinner there but we also do a little exposition of pictures of those shows because when i when we announced um that we would come to new york the Warhol Foundation The Warhol's pictures of the shows Yeah and Andy shot pictures of the show himself so they offered us the pictures we could do something with it so we do a little exposition with with some of the pictures of those shows at the Brand Foundation for a week So it really is you only came to New York to do something special and you're doing two Yes two special things but it's going to be very intimate Yes It's very human but the pictures are quite extraordinary so i want to talk more about uh dior and calvin klein these are two um you know big brands that you worked before uh do you see a through line between your work at those houses and the maison of alaya no no not so much no dior maybe a little bit more calvin not at all the or a little bit more because the base of of of alia is also waist and body and sculpting and basically at your it's a bit the same although it it was done with a corset but it's also about the waist and hips and and shoulders so mostly with your with calvin i don't have it at all calvin was interesting in another way it was just such a big ship it was american fashion if i can say it like that and i learned much more about the business aspects licensee all of that than than about real fashion those shows were big events those shows were amazing do you remember how many tons of popcorn you hauled in for for that one show many those are shows you couldn't do today anymore at all so it was interesting because was that at the new York Stock Exchange.

27:02So for people who don't know about this, there was a Calvin Klein show and there was popped popcorn, like well over a foot throughout the whole space. And the whole space was the New York Stock Exchange. And so people... And the girls and boys were walking through, the public was sitting in. It was... I have a vision of Nicole Kidman coming in in Spike Teal's trying to make her way to the popcorn. It was like light snow. You had to push it through.

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28:04So you never had the chance to meet Mr. Aliyah. I did. Oh, you did? Yes, I did. I met him a few times. Okay. Because he came to your shows. He came to Raf's shows. And sometimes he came backstage. So I met him. I met him a couple of times. Getting this job, how did you, you spent a lot of time in the archives. How did you sort of absorb his aesthetic, his sensibilities? It took time, number one. I didn't get it since the beginning because it's quite a complicated layer brand for me. I didn't get this 40 years of him doing the brand in a second. But before I signed, you know, I talked for one year with Richemont and the Allaya CEO.

28:49so for one year i did i designed a collection for them i designed uh accessories for them all to show what i could do and um during that year i i started buying a lot a lot of his clothes a lot on all websites even if i didn't get the job i thought i have to i have to start looking so i bought knitwear from the 80s i focused mostly on the 80s because i thought the first 10 years of as were the most revolutionary, the most new, and the most interesting pattern-wise also. So already for a year I was looking at it, hoping I would get the job. From the moment I got the job and I started, I went through the archive, studied the whole archive, but even then it's very difficult to get in the head of somebody.

29:37And it took a while. And mostly, it also comes from a certain feeling and emotion you have when you look at the clothes, because Asdine never explained anything. He kept everything for himself. So, it took a while. And I don't even know if I get it now for 100 % yet. Well, the magic of success is that it's partly your understanding of his oeuvre, but also your understanding of this moment. I know, for sure. For sure. And I often think when we create, I often think, would he like it or wouldn't he like it? Or even better, would he do it now? Nowadays, of course, that's impossible. But it's a good question to ask oneself if you come after somebody.

30:30I think once you go through all the collections of those four years, to be contemporary with a brand, you have to base yourself on emotion when you look at even archival pieces. And that's what I mostly try to do. I try to look at things and think, is this relevant to start from now? But I never thought, not at one moment, that I would do what other designers sometimes do when they take over a house, that they would push it all off a table and start something new. Because I do think that Alaia is too important in fashion history to do that. So I never thought of Alaia as an accessories brand when Alaia was alive, but now I really do.

31:17Yeah. I don't think Asdin liked accessories very much because he he was a sculptor by education also so i think he sculpted on on on a female body thinking that the bag on the sculpture doesn't really work it interrupts the whole silhouette so the bag needs to be out and then the shoe needs to be as simple as possible not to be in competition with the dress so um i don't think he liked it so much it changed for him i think in 2001 And then one, when the Prada company stepped in, and of course they understood that Alaya could be an accessory brand. And then as Dean and them, they created the most beautiful shoes in the world.

32:01And I always thought, because that's when I was 18, 19, I always thought that that was a big moment for them accessory-wise. And that's what I'm trying to do also now. Because I love it. I personally love accessories. And I think it adds something to a look. I mean, a beautiful dress with an ugly shoe becomes very ugly. And it is essential in the look today. And also, it's essential business-wise today. Right. I have to take it back. I am now thinking of Michelle Obama and her famous Aliyah belt. So there were Aliyah accessories. But you have had such an incredible success with the accessories that you've made.