SZA on Making Music From a Beautiful Place

0:28This is The Run Through, and I'm Nicole Phelps. were pretty great. Pretty great. There were lots of surprises. It was Caroline Rush, who's been at the head of the British Fashion Council for 15 years. It was her last award. So I think I feel like they pulled out all the stops. There were some amazing performances. I got to introduce Debbie Harry, who performed as part of a Gucci Special Recognition Award. And it was so fun to be so close to the stage and people were just dancing in the audience. And Chloe and Hallie Bailey opened the award. So they had some really big name performers and WizKid performed.

1:07Yeah, it was really like, it was more than just the world of fashion in the room. It was like definitely kind of a night of entertainment. So it was really fun. And there were some great speeches too. Tom Ford picked up his award. Actually, Anna gave... Outstanding achievement, right? Yeah, yeah. Anna gave a really moving speech. She kind of had spoken to all of his friends and had some funny stories from people like Julianne Moore. Apparently, there was one moment when Julianne Moore came to his house in a pair of corduroy pants. And Julianne Moore turns to Tom Ford and asks, so what do you think of my pants?

1:50And he's like, I think you're wearing pants. he's like he's so incredible like some of the some of the stories were really funny and um but then she talked about his his kind of role as a film director but also as a father he's raising his son in london and i didn't know that he'd spent he spent most of his life in london now and uh he's making a movie right is that true did he say anything about that she she hinted at the rumors but i think they're they're only rumors so far but i imagine that that movie is definitely seems to be coming. There's a lot of, there seems to be a lot of credence to that rumor.

2:27And you were looking fabulous in a dress by Connor Ives. Is that right? Yeah, it was so lovely to wear Connor Ives. I actually had two outfits that night. So I got to dress up twice as much, which was really, really fun. But the first look was custom made. And I've been a big fan of Connor Ives. He's an American designer, but based in London. And he usually works with upcycled fabric and he makes these beautiful dresses out of also these antique scarves. And I have a dress, I have an antique scarf dress. I've been wanting him to rework for so long. So this was a moment that we got to really play and work together.

3:05And Maya Jammer, who was one of the hosts of the night, she was wearing one of his beautiful antique scarf dresses and I got to be another one of his Connors girls. And then I had to award Nan Golden, the iconic Nan Golden, and Kelsey Liu, who was also part of the campaign and award for a kind of special recognition award for their campaign for Gucci, which was a tribute to London. So I changed into a very slinky, lovely Gucci look midway. And then backstage, I got to meet one of my family's heroes, basically the only celebrity in the room that all of the men in my family will recognize who is an iconic British footballer called Ian Wright.

3:53And so I had to take a picture with him. So that was one of my highlights backstage for the night. But it was a it was really quite it was really quite star studded. Any other red carpet favorites? Oh, Lila Moss, who was sitting at my table was wearing Archive McQueen, which I thought was really fabulous. I liked the low key vibe of that, right? It was a pair of pant trousers, embroidered trousers and a sexy sort of camisole top yeah and and it was such a great look and and I spoke to her you know I spoke to her and she was like I really knew I needed to pull out the archive mcqueen for this and so it was really it was really great to see her in that look and then I loved um um Alva Clare wore this custom jawara alayne look um which was fabulous and Andrea Riesborough um was wearing this fab erdem dress who was also sitting at one of the vote tables and looking amazing.

4:48She actually plays a Vogue editor in the new Lee movie, which is a film about the obviously legendary Vogue war photographer Lee Miller and Muse. I saw that movie recently and I loved Andrea Reesborough's role. I thought she was a great Vogue editor, very authentic. Wasn't she? She was so great. And so it's been a bit of a whirlwind weekend because we've hosted a total of about four events, in the space of four days. And one of them was a screening of Lee. And that was my first time seeing it. And I was just blown away by Kate Winslet. But also I thought Andrea played the Vogue editor down to a T.

5:29And I thought the Cecil Beaton character was also quite funny. But yeah, it was such a moving film. But I mean, and there were so many great awards for designers of the night. Designer of the year, which is obviously a big, big highlight of the night was taken by Jonathan Anderson and everybody at my table. I kind of had a hunch that it was going to be him because Jamie Dornan, who's a fantastic Irish actor, took to the stage. So everyone was like, oh, it's got to be Jonathan. And Alex Consani won Model of the Year, which was... Very well-deserved. Very well-deserved. And she made a really fantastic speech.

6:09And Ashley Graham was up there to give her her award. It was a really, really moving moment. And then menswear designer of the award went to Graeus Wells Bonner. Women's wear went to Simone Rochard, who I got to give a big hug backstage to. And then the new establishment menswear was Priya Alawalia for Alawalia, which was really great too. And then Marco Capaldi for 16 Arlington took the new establishment women's wear award. And then Stephen Jones, one accessories designer of the year. That's nice. He has a big exhibition in Paris right now. I'm dying to see it. I'm dying to see it. He's such a, I mean, he's such a linchpin of the millinery scene here and just kind of a linchpin of the fashion scene here.

6:57So it was really great to see him get his flowers. And then there were some unexpected, I guess more unexpected appearances like Issa Rae. She got a Leader of Change Award and had a really funny speech. And Tyler Mitchell, who is a photographer and shoots, has shot many times for American Vogue. He made his debut. I remember writing the story for his debut because he shot the cover of Beyonce, which I think many people remember. And he was, I think he was 21 back then. So it was kind of great to see him get the Isabella Blow Award for fashion creator. And he is such a fantastic speech giver. I honestly think he could run for president someday.

7:42He's just got such poise. I was teasing him about that. Well, let's talk about your new cover star, SZA. You two have known each other for quite a while, right? Yeah, it was actually one of those moments, pinch me moments, because I remember having lunch with SZA with her former partner and a friend of mine. And before she was famous, when she was like, literally, you know, this amazingly talented musician, but hadn't had a name for herself. So it just was so it was felt really good to be able to put someone I'd seen grow on the cover and someone I think is so supremely talented and has kind of reached a new new heights this in the last couple of years.

8:34so it was really meaningful for me actually and Sean McGurr who is the creative director of McQueen he messaged me because we put her in McQueen because he's also a huge huge music fan and he loved SZA and he's loved SZA for years so it felt really like a lot of synergy happening there and I saw Sean recently I love him so much he's a dedicated music fan he came to the Lightroom opening but he had to sort of run off because he was off to dress Charlie XCX, which was another big, it's all happening in London this week. Let me tell you, it has been a week of events. Yeah, so he ran off to dress Charlie.

9:13So I love that he kind of, he really looks to the world of music for inspiration because it's very similar to how I look at fashion. So it was really great to be able to do that. Well, we are very appreciative to you for staying up so late, especially after a weekend full of events. And I love talking to you. How's things in New York? I know. I miss you, Nicole. I will be there in January. So we should absolutely catch up properly. And I'm so happy to be in the Tuesday spot. It's very fun for me to be talking to you. Well, I'm sure I'll catch you listening to you at least on Thursday too. So now up next is my conversation with SZA after the break.

9:59Thank you.

10:28The New Yorker. So join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

10:45Thank you so much for doing this, Alana. It's so good to hear your voice. I know we've known each other for quite a while, and I was trying to remember when we first met. Do you remember? Were we at a subway? where we like getting on the subway together and like you had cornrows I feel like at the time oh my god I I don't remember getting on the subway but I remember doing a photo shoot with you that was so many years ago that was like over 10 years ago yeah I know I know that was wild it's wild it's so and that's why I think it was just so special to be doing this with you because um I've just seen the course of your career and I've seen you go from strength to strength and And it just fills me with so much joy to see you in this moment.

11:32And you have new music coming out, which is super exciting. I cannot wait. Your third album is called Lana, which I'm guessing is based on your name. Oh, yeah. So it's more like a deluxe installment and like a purging of all these things that I've been holding in. And I'm basically trying to encourage myself with all this old, not old, but all this music and all these thoughts so I can start fresh. So it's like, I don't know if I want to do half SoundCloud and half on this project that I'm about to drop because it's like, I can't drop another 25 song project that's insane. But I could drop 10 songs on SoundCloud and 10 songs on Apple and I don't know and figure out how to do that.

12:17But I just, I'm in the mood to just let it, I got to just let it out. I can't let the universe waste the energy because it'd be such a shame. Yeah, I love that you said that you can, that you made the music from, on this album from a more beautiful place. Can you expand on that? Oh, yeah. Just, I don't know. I think I just, feeling a little less tumultuous. Or yes, turmoil, but also yes, possibility. Yes, toolbox of perspective. And yes, like constant ever changing, but it's not so doomsday. Like that doesn't have to be my identity. And I think I got caught up in like healing and trauma, trauma being my identity.

13:05I don't know. I think my music is just changing because I'm changing. I think that all sounds a bit like Saturn Returns. I don't know if we've ever talked about astrology, but I know you celebrated a birthday and you're a Scorpio recently, right? Oh, yeah. I've finished my Saturn Return fully, and I feel a little freaked out, but also renewed in the strangest way. I feel like everything I know is about to change the way I know it, or is changing already. And I'm actually just trying to like acclimate and accept and like, I don't know, go with the flow and not resist so violently this change and not see it as something like so awful and doomsday -ish and like something that's happening to me instead of like just something that's happening.

14:00so how did you celebrate this birthday did you do anything fun and are you a big birthday person or I always like to retreat and get out of town for my birthday yeah no I literally hate my birthday so much you don't like the attention or what don't you like about birthdays um I guess with it with attention comes expectation right with attention people expect me to be excited and in a great mood and all these things because it's my birthday. And I have to be like, yay, birthday. But maybe I just want to be quiet and just sit and think about, damn, what does this year mean for me? What does next year look like?

14:39This year, I just decided to go to Hawaii. Did a little hiking, a little swimming. Nothing excessive, though, this time. Normally, I'm chasing the adventure constantly, constantly. But this time, I was just chilling. us it and I was I'm like damn am I really getting old or am I just tired and am I relaxing I couldn't tell I don't know it scared me a little bit it's fine it's so funny it's funny that we've never been on a hike together because you know I grew up hiking my mom is from Switzerland and I mountains is my mountains are my happy place yes like I just love Switzerland that is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been in my life I didn't even know Switzerland was giving it up like that until I went for real I was like oh my god I know it's stunning isn't it um do you want to do like Kilimanjaro I had the dream of doing Kilimanjaro I don't think I'm built for it actually now I have a crazy fear of heights so I have to be careful how I hike but you when you have a place it developed over time yeah you know age it's it's a funny old thing you get I heard after 26 that fears will start i gotta is that what it is that makes so much sense i think about that all the time because i wanted to i literally was like oh my god i want to start mountain biking right i wanted to i wanted to do the dirt biking and the electric and so i got a a little motorbike a little electric dirt bike and i went you know to yosemite and fell so fucking hard it hurt so bad and I was just like okay so that's done and now I don't know now I just might make pasta by hand or something but then it's just like no that's too old I aspire to be a cook I'm not a good cook so that's that pasta by hand is like is on the mood board as well that's fine you're fashionable and British you don't really have to cook i'll take it i'll take it what is your rising if you're scorpion for a scorpio you're very got a lot of virgo energy no i feel like that is actually more scorpio because nothing else in me is in my chart actually i have a capricorn stellium but i i'm aquarius rising and pisces moon so i'm very high oh my god the pisces moon is very accurate really yeah pisces are the most visionary signs of the zodiac they're also extremely sensitive and emotionally intelligent i think that i'll take it i'll take it i think the perfectionism comes from like dealing with a lot of like shame growing up trying to be a good representation like of what my parents wanted and like who the kind of like black woman that I thought I should be and growing up in the suburbs and like wanting to make something to myself and all my friends went to really great schools and GW and Yale's and all these things and I always felt like I had to explain like who and why I was in the world.

17:50And I felt like I had to like validate that all the time because it was always for some reason, my heart and mind would always, it still always leaves me left of where everyone else is going and no one else ever wants to go there with me. As I get older, it's a little scarier to follow that left feeling when everyone is being like, nah, I don't, I think we should go center. I think we should go right. And now as I get older, I'm like, oh, maybe I'm wrong or maybe. So I have to like actively, I don't know, kind of pivot myself into this like, nah, I'm going to blindly follow my intuition right now.

18:33And if it leads me to a terrible place, then so be it. Yeah, I think it's a constant practice. I mean, I think I love the way you described it. When you look back, did you always know that you were going to end up in this place? I can't remember if we talked about it when when I met you if you thought you'd be like I mean the person that you are now where you never gave this like whenever we talked it never gave that it was very much like I don't know I guess I'll be like somebody's wife like a designer's wife or something like that that's my joy like I used to make a little um lists all the time It's so funny.

19:11Cream used to laugh at me and make jokes. Lists and write them down in the kitchen. And I would just like say things like, become it girl. Become da-da-da. Like with no plan. I haven't gone to a single college class in four months. I've failed out. I've literally, I barely go to work, like to my job. I'm working at the strip club and kind of working at True Religion and kind of working at Lucky Brand Jeans and kind of. and but I'm but for some reason I believe that I'm a that I'm that girl like I'm like no no no I'm gonna be that girl like and I'm gonna I'm I don't know why and ever since I was a small child I just knew I thought I wasn't sure if I was gonna be a lawyer or a fucking scientist or a veterinarian or I didn't know what I was gonna be but I knew for sure at first I thought I was be corner office power suit power attitude like all of that that's who I thought I was going to be then I don't know that it was so funny I never thought I'd be all like artsy fartsy and and with the carefree and the hocus pocus that was so not me because I was so I had so much ambition but it's so funny I had no I couldn't fit into any of the positions I wanted to be in More of SZA after the break.

20:58One can be Oscar nominated. Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

21:17I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about what it was like to, because you grew up in quite a strict household, right? Yeah. Your dad was Muslim? Yeah, my dad is Muslim. Yeah, is Muslim. And I think a lot of people can relate to this idea of having to form your own identity, but also, you know, respect where you came from. Because I love how close you are with the family. I love before your grandmother passed, how you took her on the red carpet and an absolutely beautiful woman. And I just love that sense of connectivity you have with your family. but I'm sure there was like a push and pull element to it too.

21:55And how you as a teenager cope with that. I feel like a lot of people can relate to that. Yeah, no, definitely. I felt like it was hard for them because, you know, I did fill out of college because I was working at the strip club to pay for studio time and, and just kind of trying to decide what I wanted to do about it or what, I didn't even have a plan. Like, you know, you'd ask me, what do you, what do you want to do with this? My parents totally did like a three, I don't even know, 180, not 360. They just totally, they just want me to be happy and fulfilled and be realized in the world. And I think once they saw that I was going to be, that I was steadfast about something, it just wasn't what they wanted me to be steadfast about.

22:43What other opportunity would I have to do that? I don't think I'm designed to really do it in any other way other than like on my own terms and like through creative expression. That's my barometer for life, I think. And I think my parents understand that in me. And I got a lot of that from them. So they're happy. I'm happy. Were you engaged when I met you? Were you? Yeah, I was, child. Oh, actually, maybe not. Not yet. Maybe not yet. When we were together for 11 years, I was engaged for maybe like five or six out of those. What do you think is the biggest lesson that you learned from stepping away from such a huge, I guess, such a big relationship like that?

23:25You know, okay, to be fair, he's asked me not to talk about it. Okay. Especially on stage and he's tired. But let me say something lovely about him because I think he feels disparaged. that's not fair because I couldn't have done anything that I'm doing right now without him building me up and pouring love and brilliance and power speaking power over me all the time and letting me know I'm different I'm special I'm I'm a visionary I and all these things and I didn't have any evidence of that to be true that was quantifiable in the real world and he saw it in me and he poured into it and he before I could pay for studio time when I was just making music with Daniel Manhattan you know he would pay for that and then even when it was when it was with TDE or anything else he would come and motivate me and be like what are you doing what are you what are you doing?

24:30Like you have to, he's like, you can do better than this. Or when I'm putting together Control and I'm about to leave off a song, but I've sent him every single song that I made. And he's like, where's, where's my jam? And he's the one that put Garden back on the album and put other songs back on the album and very, cause he reminded me and I just trusted his, trusted his expertise in life. And this is a person that doesn't speak to me anymore. We never talk at all. But I would never, ever disparage him. I don't even want him to feel disparaged because I owe so much of who I am to that experience.

25:11It was such a pivotal part of my life. 11 years is such a long time, especially from teen to 20. it's like it's like just that's a lifetime you change so much in that time yeah and I wish he knew me now only not as on a romantic way but in a way where it's like just to see like hey a lot of that stuff that like you put in my brain stuck every relationship we have is it's a moment with someone that shapes you, you know, and you shape each other and you grow. Sometimes you grow together, sometimes you grow in different directions. And I think we're sold this idea that every relationship is forever, or we go into a relationship and think, okay, this is my life partner forever.

26:04And it's rarely like that. And I think understanding that there's a cycle to everything and it comes with maturity. And I think I know many women your age, you haven't gotten to the point that you've got a way of understanding that? I think experience, I think seeing things through a lens of experience now is the angle. And I think I was really, I mean, before I was a singer, I just wanted literally to be, you know, I wanted to be Sammy Jo Alonso. Like I wanted to be a designer's wife, just like, you know, the beautiful wives that walk through magic trade show, but you know, back in the, in the heyday.

26:46I used to go a lot. You know, and, and, you know, and all the designers wives, they walk in and they're, they're beautiful. They're dressed well. They're sweet. They're all these, they're all these things. They're fly. But I just wanted, I didn't know how to define myself. And I realized that like, I was looking for a relationship to define me. I don't believe in that anymore. I feel like everything is an experience and it's like you just have to learn and grow through and you can't lean on someone to define you as a crutch and and make you whole no and that's that's what I did that was a mistake that I think I made and a lot of women make before we we leave you I wanted to ask you tell me what you hope for the future I'm stepping into like this fearlessness this.

27:36I'm trying to just become who I say I am and just kind of like step into service a lot more. I think the movie was an interesting experience. Yeah. Yeah. You're with Kiki, who we love. Yeah. No, I love Kiki Down. I mean, gosh. But I don't want to be an actor. That's what I realized. Is that what made you think? No, that definitely is what let me know. I don't want to be an actor. But I definitely, that was an experience. So the things I'm learning, I need to continue to just branch and see where my heart lies. Food security, oddly, is a weird concern that's been knocking on my heart and mind. And it's getting louder and louder as of late.

28:19So I've been working on a little project around community fridges and giving out well-rounded meals, especially to areas and communities that are underserved, especially food deserts and red zones and things like that. Big problem in America. It's getting crazy. The soil quality is terrible, but it's like illegal to import soil. I'm just trying to think. It's like been a thing that I was swimming around like a couple for a couple of years. And now it's like I'm really starting to press play because I think that might be, I don't know, anything I'm naturally passionate about is where it just comes to fruition.

28:54I have some other products to send to you too that I'm excited about that I'm about to drop. still yay I want to know what you think I can't wait it's in my way yeah I'm excited on your face oh love that's so exciting I love that you're stretching yourself in different ways you know because like experiment have fun like explore what makes you happy explore what you you know your interest in your passions I think that's that's the best no this is the time this is the time like when I grow up I want to I'm going to feed the world I want to fix this I want to ask questions. I want to, I got to do whatever the fuck because we're all going to die soon.

29:30So we have to just do something right now. I know. I love that energy. I still think you've, you've probably lived nine lives already. I have, I swear I have. And if you weren't present for at least three of them, you wouldn't believe it, but thankfully you're a witness. I know I was a witness. I was a witness. I want to just thank you again. Like it meant so much to me, like to end the year with you and um I just think you're such a wonderful person and thank you I know that literally like this could not have happened with like if it wasn't for you like thank you for no you did you earn this like this is not something that like it's not like I'm grateful to you you you you could have said no to me so don't say that stop it aren't it no I can't like Like, you know, you're just honestly, like, you've earned it.

30:23Like, this is all you. I was literally working at the strip club when I met you still. Literally. Like, so this is, we've come a long way from the strip club to Vogue. Yeah, exactly. Look at us. Take it out.

30:50That's it for The Run Through. Thanks again, Choma, for joining us on the Tuesday show. Oh, thanks so much, Nicole. See you Thursday.

31:03The Run Through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Joanna Solitaroff. It's engineered by Jake Loomis, Luke Mosley, and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Stephanie Karaoke is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's head of Global Audio.