Zoe Saldaña on Avatar, Her Sons Meeting the Pope, and Filming Lioness

0:28This is The Run Through. Yeah. So when I hear that, I'm like, what? No, this is Lioness, the TV show that Taylor Antrim and Samantha Sussman are obsessed with. And they got to really fangirl out. Speaking to none other than Zoe Saldana, who is promoting Avatar. Poor thing. I always wonder if Zoe ever thought she would be blue for this long. I mean, it is like 20 years of being painted cerulean. yeah I've seen two out of three I don't know if I'm gonna make it to the third I'm gonna be honest three I'm impressed Joma the vastness of your cinema appetite never ceases to amaze me I just love like one of my core memories I think I was working it out that I was three years old when I went to see Bambi and it's like literally the thing that stays in my mind and I was so traumatized I went to see it with my Swiss auntie in a theater in St.

1:27Gallen, Switzerland. And I just, I love going. It's the one time where you just feel like my ordering score is perfection when I'm in the movies. It always says I'm taking a nap. Yeah, exactly. You know that you're literally lying down. That's true. And you're not looking at your phone. It's true. The movies are magical. The movies are magical. I'll see anything. Netflix, buying Warner Brothers. Listen up. Cinemas are magical. Well, maybe they'll do like screenings of these things. Anyway, we're going off on a tangent. We digress. Zoe came to the Vogue offices. She is currently on the cover of Vogue Mexico looking fantastic.

2:05And I was obsessed with the Slack message update I got with the photo of Zoe, Taylor and Sam, where it looks like the Von Trapp children in descending height order. It's like Taylor, Zoe, and then Sam is like a foot shorter than all of them. It's delightful. And Zoe is promoting, obviously, her third Avatar film, Avatar Fire and Ash, which comes out Friday, December 19th. But she had a great conversation with Sam and Taylor about what it's like playing Netiri for 20 years. She has great sort of Saint Laurent red carpet style. She also won an Oscar for Amelia Perez. So yes, Zoe's having a big, big moment.

2:53And I'm very excited for everyone to hear that conversation. Me too. But first, Choma, I want to hear your thoughts on the Dior Prefall collection that just came out. Feels like the next big Jonathan moment. I really, really loved it. I felt like you can see that Jonathan is beginning to develop a language already for Dior and his Dior woman. And I love the way he plays with the sort of codes of the house that the bar jacket made out of the ribbons and then the ribbon cardigans. And his play on proportion, this like denim, I guess they're jeans that look like a ball skirt. Incredible. And then the embroidered denim.

3:38The embroidered denim is spectacular. Spectacular. It's so you, Chloe. I can honestly see you in that full. I was thinking it's so you, Choma. Really? I mean, it's so me, but it's so you. You do a great jean. You do a fancy jean really well. And I'm so in my fancy jean era. Like, I just want to wear like a really fancy. We all live for Choma's fancy jean era. I'm leaning into it. And I also love how he pairs the clog, the kind of faux Birkenstock Dior clog. with an evening dress. It just all feels so, like, easy. Yeah. But still really Parisian chic, which I think is a sweet spot because I think in Sarah Murray's review, he talks about kind of loosening or undoing some of the stifling-ness.

4:27Ooh, the stifling-ness. How do we remove the stifling-ness of Dior? And I think for me, he answers that question. I don't know if stifling-ness is in Webster's, but go on. No, it's not. But don't you think he, it's kind of that, the kind of oppressiveness of like the weight of the Dior. Yes. The Dior codes and this idea. Do you dare enter the house of Dior? Yeah, it's a continuation of that, of that idea that he set out in his collection in Paris last season. And sort of undoing it and loosening up and making it cooler and desirable, but still not losing that kind of ultimate polish that we're all expecting from Dior, right?

5:05and I just thought it was really great and I loved it. Some of the dresses will kind of be recognizable, I guess, or one will because Sunday Rose wore the Cerulean dress in the collection to present Jonathan his award and Sunday Rose being daughter of Nicole Kidman. She wore it on stage at the British Fashion Awards and so we had a sort of a peek into the collection then. But what a great reveal. Yeah, Sunday peak. And, you know, a friend of mine designs the shoes and I love the shoes. I love all of it. So I'm not totally biased, but I do think they're great. Yeah, I don't know. How did you feel about it?

5:45I agree with everything. I'm very, I love the sort of Napoleonic embroidery on denim. I think that's so glamorous. But I also, I always love seeing pre-fall collections because I, it does feel like a continuation of people's big September points of view and expressions. and I wonder if you had thoughts on any other pre-fall collections. Like I was delighted by Alessandro Michele's discussion of the rock stud in his pre-fall interview that he did with Tiziana where he notes that Meryl Streep wearing the rock stud in the Devil Wears Prada 2 that he was sort of— It just set off a whole conversation, didn't it?

6:30It really did. Didn't he ever talk about this? They collaborated with Valentino, but he said he was bringing back a different version of the Rockstud, and he was surprised by the one they actually chose because it wasn't even a bestseller, which I thought was a very funny moment. But I have to say, I'm always a sucker for his collections. Oh, my God. And his shoes. I'm currently rocking. I have two pairs of his bow. They're like very low-heeled bow pumps, and I just can wear them every day. I love his shoes. I love the shoes that he did at Gucci. I like that they sort of have a nod to vintage, but then there's like a kind of modern twist to them and there's a little bit of a, they're always quite comfortable too.

7:14And I'm looking, you know, to be honest, if it wasn't for Alessandra, I don't think I would reconsider the rock stud. Because I filed it away in fashion history to be kept in a vault for as long as necessary. But I'm actually quite here for the sandals and his interpretation of it. And I think he just does really well with embellishment, too. Yes. So he always knows how to bring back things. And you think about, like, look at these rock stud sandals with the most beautiful sheer socks with lace trim. I mean, they're just divine. The way he styles things, too, I think brings them to life, you know, in a new way.

7:55Agree. I also liked Erdem's pre-fall collection speaking of embellished things I thought there were some really beautiful dresses I haven't gone so deep on the pre-fall Choma, there have been a lot of fun celebrity style moments this week last night at the Marty Supreme premiere a lot going on this commitment to the orange ping pong ball in this movie I mean, I don't know how I feel about it And at the after party, they had oranges stamped with Marty Supreme logos that looked like the ping pong balls. But, I mean, at this premiere, it was really sort of a all walks of life of New York City. It was everyone from Mayor Momdani to Katsimatidis to Gwyneth and Apple Martin.

8:43Apple Martin wore a 1990s Calvin Klein dress that Gwyneth wore in the 90s. And it was very exciting to see that moment. Timmy wore all orange matching with his mom who looked to be having the time of her life. I know. I did love that. I did. I think I have to say of the matching orange looks, I think this one takes the prize. No, like his mother just looked like and with her very, very cool. Is it a Fendi clutch that she has or baguette that she has? Yes. I mean, heaven. very here for this and then even there did you notice that their access ribbon bands are also orange it's just like everything and she has them on he's committed to the bit yeah yeah also i feel like if you'd asked heider ackerman two years ago do you think you'll ever design an entire outfit in this exact shade of orange he would have just like laid down in traffic but um here we are and That's what you do for Timmy.

9:42I know. This is the most un-Ackerman shade. Totally. It's really construction cone orange. Isn't it? We also, this morning, our celeb style chat was delighted by photos of Rihanna in stilettos at the grocery store. Oh, my God. Brilliant. Laya Garcia Furtado pointed out. How did I miss that? That it was exactly a recreation, a real life version of the Chanel supermarket show where Rihanna was pushing Cara Delevingne in the shopping cart. So that was that was a celeb highlight for me. I love that she's back so soon after having the baby. Like she's just always having that. She's just so committed to fashion.

10:27Like she doesn't miss a beat. It's so crazy. I think if I was like however many weeks postpartum, I would just be like, just hand me the crocs. I know. Really like I love that she did this. She literally went to the grocery store in Stilettos and a full look. I know. She's really, I love people who go all the way. Me too. Me too. That's a 2026 resolution for me. Commit to the bit more. Really go all the way. Choma, what is the holiday plan? So I'll be here for Christmas and then I'll be headed to New York for New Year's. Oh, fun. I mean, I won't be here, but fun for you. So it'll be a mix of both sides of the pond.

11:11How about you? I am going to be in New York through Christmas, which I'm very happy about because I feel just so drowning underwater that I would love a couple of days to sort of actually... Some rest. Cross things off Santa's list because that has not happened yet. And then we are going to Los Angeles for a week on the 26th and we are going to Disneyland. It is a big deal. Oh, I've never been. It's heaven. I love Disneyland. I know. I'm dying to go. So very excited about that. Many plans. Lots of discussion about which rides will be too scary, which rides will be just right. Sort of a Goldilocks approach.

11:52Wait, has Artie been before? I guess already went two years ago with us and Alice is going for her first time. And she's very excited. I want to see pictures of her face lighting up in Disneyland.

12:11The Run Thru will be back in a moment with Zoe Zaldana.

12:27you come to the new yorker radio hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really want to hear from whether it's bruce springsteen or quest love or olivia rodrigo liz cheney or the godfather of artificial intelligence jeffrey hinton or some of my extraordinarily well-informed colleagues at the new yorker so join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

12:56Welcome. Oh my goodness. I know. How gorgeous. How are you? Well, welcome to the show, Zoe. We're so happy to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Gorgeous. I love. Thank you. We were concerned that the material was going to be a little noisy for the podcast, but you'll let me know. And we'll ASMR it, right? That's what people do. That's what the kids like. Exactly. But gorgeous. Us kids, right? Trenchcoat, button to the top. I love it. I was hearing that you guys like Lioness. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Just see, wait. We're shooting season three. I know. It's going to be in Texas. Are you filming it now?

13:27Yeah. We're in Texas now. Oh, my goodness. Until March shooting. What I kept saying to Sam, because Sam and I are like legitimately passionate fans of the show. Truly. And we bring it up in meetings, is that it's like so prescient. All the stuff I'm reading in the news, it's like, I was like, guys, this was on Lioness season two. We're always saying that. And I truly stay up after every episode, and I'm just going through it in my head, thinking about the news, but thinking about, I mean. It's good writing. It's really good writing. That's what drew me to the project very early on. And I met with Taylor Sheridan, I think it was like in 2018, and I really liked his writing.

14:02Oh, yeah. And since then, we were always trying to find something to do together. Well, during the pandemic, he calls me, and I'm like, well, the world is ending. like and you have a pilot you want me to read like i'm okay but it was i couldn't put it down yeah i really couldn't put it down joe is definitely i'm not going to compare her to thomas shelby from peaky blinders but she's definitely someone that works constantly and is able to carry on so much responsibility you know having to answer for other people's lives 24-7 is like an impossible task. Totally. And she does it, and the amount of pressure that she can honestly sustain was just unimaginable to me.

14:44So I was very curious to play her. I mean, and we'll touch on other things. My one question is, everything you said about Jo is so true, but how do you prepare to be Jo? Like, it's very physical. Besides everything she takes on, there's so much mentally, but physically, I mean, you're really, it's like down in the trenches. Like, physically, how do you prepare? I mean, there's a lot of conditioning and physical training because she does have a military background. But the rest of it was just conversations with people in service that are either still currently serving or served in different sort of aspects because she's a paramilitary operator.

15:22So she's not really on the field as much as, you know, I would say someone like Cruz is. Right. But she was never really a Caitlin who had never been on the field. Right, right, right. So she has a little bit of both. and it's just high intelligence, you know, stuff that she's constantly dealing with. And it was always just asking the team, am I hitting it? Am I off? How am I tonally? I don't want to play her to be so unbelievable, but I also want to exercise my creative right to be nuanced, you know, because that's what art is. It's sort of like a hyper imitation of life. And, but, you know, we're surrounded by military people that are constantly either giving us a thumbs up or a thumbs up.

16:03Oh, that's good, right? That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so convincing, Zoe, I have to tell you. Thank you. I read a little thing for the site about it there. I said that no one does, like, high-performance yelling like you do on this show. It's incredible. Incredible. With the wraparounds and the assault raffle. And then when you just start yelling at people, it's just, like, so exciting. So more of that, please. And then when your character almost died in season two, Sam legitimately texted me so emotional about it. Like, don't help me. I would wash my head on the screeners. I was like, can I tell her it's going to be okay?

16:32I feel like that's a spoiler, but she really needs to hear right now that it's going to be okay. I was not okay. It's going to be okay. I was really not okay. But trust me, I wasn't sure if I was going to be okay. Because the way that Taylor writes, he's writing so many other shows at the same time. Yeah, totally. It's not like I get all eight episodes before we start shooting. Right. Sometimes we're shooting episode three, and we're about to go into four, but we haven't read four yet. Yeah, yeah. So I'm constantly sending them in text messages like, are we good? Like, am I good? Am I showing up today?

16:58So when I read that, I'm like, wait, am I good? Am I dying? He goes, no, you're not going to die. Focus, you know. They're really going to me. Okay, okay. That's so funny. Well, I promise we will move off of this subject reluctantly, I have to say. But I do have a transition in mind because, you know, Joe, you pointed this out that Joe's character is like balancing so many things and going so hard all the time, right? And you're on the cover of Vogue Mexico right now. Yes. It's a beautiful cover. Thank you. I'm very excited about it. But I'm like the features director at Vogue, so I'm always reading the articles.

17:28So I was reading the article and you said this thing about how for such a long part of your career, it was just like go, go, go. You know, that momentum was everything. You've got to always be working. And that's really true if you look at your resume, all the films you've been in. But you said that pausing right now is something that's really important to you. Yes. And I just found myself, I was like, yes, we need more people to say that because all of us need to find ways to pause. Amen. But I also wanted to ask you, like, what does that look like? It's, you know, immersing myself in my personal life.

17:56I'm a mother of three children. And I'm, you know, I have a very happy sort of family life with my partner. So it's making sure that that well is always full as opposed to putting it all out somewhere else in my work or my art. You know, my family life is part of my art. So I make sure that I curate it well, that I am very focused. and that means you know that when i'm not working my social life as a public figure does diminish right um but also it has to do with the fact that i'm 47 years old the things that really interest me are much more at home and i'm sleeping having a good night's sleep and waking up super early and getting ahead of the day is much more important for me than to than to feel like i missed out at whatever event or what if i don't attend these events then i will be forgotten But then, you know, there's always a follow-up question to that that keeps resurfacing now that I'm a little older is that, well, if that is the case, is that really that bad?

19:00I was going to say a big event that you don't want to miss. I think it was one of your children's birthdays coming up. It's today. It's today. It's today, actually. It's my youngest son's birthday. Oh, my God. Happy birthday to him. Thank you so much. Zenzilla. He's nine. Oh, my God. I mean, his name is Zen, but we call him Zenzilla. Love that. He looks adorable. Horrible. And it's the only birthday that I've ever missed. And I know it's the only one I will ever, ever miss. Because it's just like it's hard. It's hard. You think in your mind as you're planning ahead going, no, I can do this. I can do this.

19:30Just I'm in the long stretch and then it's done. But it's like, wait, it's his birthday. Yeah. He's only going to be nine, you know, well, for 365 days. But I don't want him to have that memory that I chose. I put him in second place on a very special day. You know, when you're nine, what else is there as big as your birthday, you know? Ten's a big one. Yeah. My son's 11, my daughter's 13, so we're in kind of a similar zone. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ten is a huge one, right? Well, yeah, my older ones just turned 11, and they were, when they turned 10, it was like, stop! Stop. Wait, this is major!

20:04And they're twins, right? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. At least we've got FaceTime, we've got, there's always times to celebrate, you know. Absolutely. Yes, yes. But we were, I mean, we wanted to know about the holidays here. Yeah, because you've got these birthdays and then you've got Christmas coming up. So how do you handle it? Like, is it, what's the approach? I am sort of like I can't stay still. So even when I'm relaxing and I'm not working, I am planning events. I am planning birthdays. I'm planning Christmas. I'm getting flights booked here and there. So we are, you know, the whole family. I'm talking about 16, 17 of us.

20:38We're going to go away to a location and spend Christmas together. That's amazing. Because, you know, this industry and this business keeps us away for so long that when you do finally have an opportunity, you want it to be completely immersive and you want no distractions. So we're definitely going to do that. I'm going to take it all in. Yeah, well, I love the pause. We love the holiday. We love the no disruptions. Yeah, and sleep. I heard sleep. Sleep's really important, too. Wake up early and get a lot of sleep. Yeah, I'm back to eight hours. Do you track it? Yes. Yes. I missed eight to nine hours.

21:13I used to always in my 20s, I was an eight to nine hour person. And then somewhere in my 30s, after I had my children, it was a four to six, a four to six. And I'm like, that's impossible. I can't. This is not sustainable. So this last year, even while I was on tour for the whole campaigning for Emilia, as soon as I had downtime, I was not in the lobby of any hotel meeting with somebody or saying hello. I was in bed sleeping. And that really helped me. Because I also wanted to be so present throughout that entire campaign. I knew it was going to be grueling. So I wanted to be healthy and I wanted to be happy.

21:49You know, it's not just like, oh, let me just be healthy. No, I want to be happy. I want to take it all in. And I want to feel every evening going, huh, what a wonderful experience this was. As opposed to like, what the F was that? You know? We had some of that, but it's okay. That's great. I saw Avatar. I was really lucky. I got to see it. You saw Avatar. I know. She's so lucky. So I feel really excited about that. But now I have so many questions for you. I want to sneak one in. I got a lot of the questions over text during the screening. Exactly. It was really exciting. And I mean, so okay.

22:19So you're playing Natir and I saw the first one in theaters too. Total fan. Moved me really. It was so emotional. Your character is now a matriarch. You're very loyal. And that really comes out in so many different ways. I think you have to weigh so many things. Obviously with Jake, you're torn. It's been 24 years since this started. And did you expect to be blue for so long? Did you know what you were signing up for? No. What a gift. The first one felt like such an experiment. Everyone knowing who James Cameron is, it's Terminator. It's the abyss. It's True Lies, Titanic. And all of a sudden, here we are in this little hangar set out of like Playa Vista back in the day when we shot at this other location.

23:06And it was gnarly. It was this set that just felt there were barely any props, and all the props that were there were made from wood, and they were all painted gray because they couldn't really take so much attention. The color at that time was going to be too intrusive for all the systems to sort of have an accurate read of everything that was in the volume, which is what we call a set when you shoot under performance capture. And I remember at first, at a glance, it was more like, what is this? So every day felt like we were just shooting the rehearsal. And that kind of experimentation was incredible.

23:43That's amazing. Because there wasn't that pressure to really be on. We were playing. We were imagining this place. And all of a sudden, this place became absolutely real without it ever existing around us. We had some reference pictures. And I just remember thinking, this is what I've been wanting ever since I lost my childhood. You know, like the moment you lose your childhood because you grow up. And in my opinion, the loss of innocence means it's the beginning of awareness. It's like you're so aware. And then you just live in this hyper-awareness constantly. And you're always second-guessing yourself.

24:22And you're embarrassed to do something. So you think ahead of time and you're not really passionately, impulsively, like throwing yourself into the unknown like children often do. And when you do that as a child, you get lost in your imagination and your imagination is infinite, right? It's like space. And I missed that. I loved adulting, you know, in my 20s, but I really missed being a kid in terms of just how much I love my art, you know? The imagination is infinite in this, in Avatar. You feel it, right? And I'm in a different place. I have the 3D glasses on. I walked out with them on top of my head, so I brought them to work today.

25:01But that's what you're just talking about. So when you went to work then in that first one versus going to work on this one, so now you're suiting up. Is it still have things changed now in the process? I mean, they do get easier in the sense that we are working as a family now and we are fellows, you know, as actors and artists. there's a sense of familiarity that makes you feel absolutely and utterly safe to try anything and everything and if we fail we fail together and we fail forward and you're failing with a creative mind like james cameron that when you when when we try something that didn't work he kind of goes oh well that didn't work and but it's not it's not like he's disappointed or you know he's just so great to work with and to work for, you know?

25:46It just feels great. However, what becomes challenging is to be in a teary skin as she's mourning, as she's feeling so much hatred towards any kind of entity, you know, and how complex that is and how you sort of go, wow, I understand where you're coming from. I still won't ever make your choices. but in the meantime like i have to be in your skin and i have to feel all this pain and when we were shooting way of water and fire and ash which we shot back to back yeah exactly i mean my younger boy had just been born you know he was only like six months old my younger one and and my older ones were two so i'm leaving my home which is giving me so much joy and i'm coming to work and living in the skin of a woman that had just buried a child And that was gnarly, you know, and I get really lost into the world of Pandora.