Episode 624: Dani Moreno

0:09Dani Moreno: Welcome to The Running Public with Bracken Crocker and Kirk DeWint. Whether you are a brand new runner or you already have a great mustache, we're here to help you increase your running knowledge and present it at a practical level. This is The Running Public.

0:30Dani Moreno: When you're ready to take your training or racing to the next level, go to the running public.com. We have both monthly subscription training plans,$19.99 a month. And Bracken and I both offer one-on-one customized coaching. Again, go to the running public.com and check out our offerings. And you're in a puffy coat?

0:50Scott H.: Yeah, just, yeah, it's actually pretty nice. We have like a weird cold spell in like the Eastern CR right now where I live.

0:59Dani Moreno: um so yeah we're getting like 90 what did we get 96 yesterday we're getting like our first heat wave so to see you in like a jacket like that would just sounds terrifying right now oh my gosh

1:09T.J. A.: yeah that is so hot we're not used to it danny and i have a 50k this weekend and it's supposed

1:14Dani Moreno: to be that hot and we haven't been able to train in it so it's like the the perfect storm that

1:20Scott H.: sounds really rough oh see i'm already taking my jacket off just you guys talking about the heat is making me hot.

1:25T.J. A.: Now we start dropping off a little bit this weekend, Kirk. What's it going to be like on, is it Sunday morning or Saturday?

1:31Dani Moreno: It says high 89 right now, but I'm sure it'll, the morning will be a nice 75 or something. It'd be great. You better get done quick. Better run fast. Not as fast as Danny ran last weekend.

1:41Scott H.: I might, I might do a 50k on the East Coast and just looking at their weather over there, it just looks rough.

1:48Dani Moreno: Which one?

1:49Scott H.: The ragged 50k it's in vermont or new oh no it's in new hampshire what's drawing you there um admittedly there's a good prize purse and um europe is really hot and humid and i don't have a ton of sweat data for humidity and so it'd be nice like to get a hard effort in and see like what my sweat rate looks like so that when i go to europe i'm not like just taking a best guess so what will you

2:16T.J. A.: do what will your protocol be for on race day then you know weigh yourself right prior take a salt sample at some point like like at an aid station and then way after i'll wear a wearable

2:29Scott H.: it's called h drop and so like you have to calibrate it to you so i've calibrated it um and so i've just been like accumulating data over the last year but it just turns out i just never race in humidity and yeah it'd be nice to have some solid data and so you wear it and it tells you, yeah, your sweat rate, like when it kicks up, like at which temperatures and stuff like that. And then you can, if it feels like the temperature like swung during the effort, you can put that in there too and like track it so it correlates. And so, yeah, it's pretty nice. I like it a lot.

3:06T.J. A.: How have you found that to compare to a regular sweat test, accuracy-wise?

3:12Scott H.: I find it to be incredibly accurate. Like I have done a couple sweat tests and they more or less are all in the same realm. My favorite thing about the H drop is that I've learned as a woman, my, my sodium concentrate in my sweat changes based on where I'm at in my menstrual cycle. And so I have to like compensate for that depending on like when a race lands. And that has probably been like the most fruitful data that I've gathered from it.

3:41T.J. A.: That's really interesting.

3:42Scott H.: Yeah.

3:43T.J. A.: So you don't have to do much before. Does it do rate as well?

3:47Scott H.: Yeah.

3:48T.J. A.: Wow.

3:49Dani Moreno: What would be like your hourly range depending? I mean, I know it can fluctuate, but how much sodium are you losing and how much water weight would you say?

3:57Scott H.: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I have a nutritionist that like does the heavy math for me. All I know is like my baseline is I have to drink a flask and a half. So like 28 to 30 ounces per hour. and I have to get in, it swings between 600 to 950 milligrams of sodium per hour.

4:19Dani Moreno: And that would be just because of the cycle difference on the same temp days, you could go from 600 to 900.

4:25Scott H.: Exactly.

4:26Dani Moreno: Wow. Would it be more when you're on your cycle?

4:28Scott H.: It's most when I'm ovulating.

4:30Dani Moreno: Interesting. Bodies demanding resources, basically.

4:34Scott H.: Yeah. It's really, really fascinating. And it was like something that took a year of data to figure out, you know, it wasn't like you could figure that out in a couple of months. It was like starting to see the correlation. And also like depending on the altitude that I'm running at, my sweat rate changes. And then we'll see with humidity. Like I can only assume maybe it probably will change like I'll need a lot more water. And so, yeah, I'm curious to figure that out, too. So obviously like one race isn't going to give me like the end all end all, but it'll at least give me some point of reference, which would be nice.

5:13T.J. A.: So with this sensor, can you get real time data or can your crew so that they can change salt intake without having to rely on your feedback of how things are going?

5:24Scott H.: That would be really sick. I think that's next level, but no. It does have an integration to Garmin. and so I don't know if it does other watches but I know Garmin because that's what I use and so while I'm running it'll say like drink this much water um based on like I have it and it usually like correlates with what I'm feeling like oh I am running a little bit dry but I'm trying my best to like get ahead of that like I don't really want to see that but when it pops out it's like oh I guess I am sweating so that's a pretty cool feature would you say that you are

5:58T.J. A.: naturally like tuned into things like that during the race or do you figure it out when things go wrong?

6:04Scott H.: I think I historically overcompensated because I was so scared of bonking. Um, and so then I started using it because I still at times was bonking, even though I thought I was getting ahead of it. And it turned out, you know, like I was over salting or drinking too much, like over watering myself and so that's where it's helped me to be like accurate it was I was like too proactive at times that I would eat way too much uh like within an hour and then I ended up bonking and I'm like okay I'm not supposed to be bonking obviously there's a bit of like the more professionalized I guess I get within the data without like analysis paralysis is like you can also gut train right and so that was something else I wasn't doing um but yeah it's been a really great input.

6:55Scott H.: I feel like it's really cool. Yeah.

6:57Dani Moreno: Hmm. So that could be a bonk related to resources. Meaning if you consume too much, your body's trying to do something with that and maybe pulling resources from your output. Would that be the only logical thing we could make sense of with something like that?

7:12Scott H.: Um, I mean, there's a lot of things that could be going on. Like your body could also just not be handling the load. Like you went out too hard.

7:19Dani Moreno: Oh yeah.

7:20Scott H.: that whole thing yeah energy management sure yeah but it's like your body's gonna process different amounts of carbs at different efforts um even with gut training it's like yeah if you're like in zone four zone five maybe you do need 120 to 130 carbs per hour but if you're in like zone two you could train your body to to take in 90 to 100 but it could also operate just fine off of 60 to 70 depending on like where you are in zone two like are you barely in zone two or are you like cresting into zone three um and so that's where it's also been really helpful like having a nutritionist to like really dial in my number and figure out like my energy expenditure um before and like after races like taking all the data and to be like well you know even though you only ate 70 carbs per hour, you were burning 130 to 140.

8:17Scott H.: So it's like figuring out ways to get that in as well.

8:20T.J. A.: It's been fascinating recently seeing some of the high carb athletes have it bite them from time to time. I think we just saw it at Western States a little bit. We had Hans on not too long ago and he talked about how high carb he's pushed and he's with David. So they're obviously pushing higher and higher and he's handled it really well even at like javelina and places that have been hot and then we get a cool western states and he puked for like 10k straight and like it's you want it to be linear but it seems to be like it takes one little factor and suddenly you just

8:55Scott H.: your body can't tolerate it all of a sudden oh totally and also just reminding yourself like it's it's one piece of the puzzle it's not the entire puzzle and it's like yeah he probably was taking a lot of carbs but it's like still i mean hans is an incredible runner i i would be interesting because it's like hard to critique his race i mean he went for it and i love athletes like that um yes we is because of that exactly and he's gonna land it one day he's gonna be in that sub 14-hour club sooner rather than later. But it's like, was it too fast? And like, were you taking in the right amount of carbs for that effort?

9:35Scott H.: Like having such a strong push off the front. Did you try those carbs in cooler weather? Because everyone tends to over, I mean, my opinion is like over index on the heat training, which I get when Western States is really hot. But when you get a cool year, like does your body process the carbs in the same way when it's cooler? So it's like, there's just so many factors.

9:57T.J. A.: Well, and when you're a liquid-based carb person, which he typically is, are you able to have... Can you cut that down without... You have to get your carbs in, but can you do that without changing... If I can't drink the normal amount of water, suddenly things are... Like you said, the ratio changes. And that's... Again, I'm putting words in his mouth. I was just using him as an example of someone who's been very successful with high carb in heat.

10:24Scott H.: Totally.

10:25T.J. A.: Yeah, no, it is fascinating.

10:27Scott H.: Yeah, I mean, even like talking to my team and like close friends, it's really hard to find that balance. And I think the best thing you could do is just check. It's so hard because we're always like, we're always taking a ton of inputs in as professional athletes, input, input, input, like trying to check all the boxes. and trail is just like next level of all the factors you need to consider but it's like can you train your gut to be ready to take 90 hours of car 90 carbs per hour in gels 90 carbs per hour in fluid 90 carb per hour in gel and fluid like different amounts of sodium so that you truly are like a swiss army knife and it just it takes time like it doesn't happen overnight like even gut training myself for Broken Arrow, like it was a seven week process of like trying to load the gut.

11:22Scott H.: And like, there was a couple of runs I was vomiting, like trying to make this happen. I couldn't do that over two weeks. And, you know, I lucked out in that, like the weather I got was very similar to what I was training. And if we also had a cool day, I would have been like, oh shoot, I need to move some stuff around. So yeah, it's just trying to be ready for everything at the same time can be difficult.

11:44Dani Moreno: What I'm trying to sort out right now is so I have historically not pressed the sodium issue for myself when I'm out there and it's worked for me fine until this last race. I kind of had a pretty good bonk. I still pulled it off, but I mean by the skin of my teeth. And so I've been playing around with how much sodium I'm taking in. And I find if I over sodium, it can also mess with my gut. I'm pretty sure it does. Have you noticed that? Because I just thought I could get away with taking as much as I needed. And then I had a run where I was like, my stomach didn't feel right for like a day and a half afterwards and during the effort.

12:15Dani Moreno: And I was like, well, I overdid it there. So it's like a really razor's edge. Have you ever have you noticed that with yourself? I thought salt would have been safe. And I found out it wasn't for me.

12:25Scott H.: Yeah, no, I definitely have experienced that as well. I had this one training where like I had chatted with my nutritionist. Her name is Kyla Chanel. She her company is called Nutritional Revolution. and she works with a lot of cyclists in the professional space. And she wrote something, and I just, like, I just misread it, like, when I was doing my preparations for my long run. And I go and I do my long run, and I had completely over-salted, and I had, like, this really weird, like, foaming mouth reaction, and, like, I felt kind of drunk, you know, like, just uncoordinated.

13:01Dani Moreno: So funny you say that is I had the afternoon and the next morning, I told my wife, I was like, I feel really weird right now. I'm like a scary way. Like my body is totally off. And I think I, I don't know if it had to do with that or not, but that's exactly how I felt like loopy, unstable, almost like balloony. I don't know how to describe it. It was really bizarre.

13:22Scott H.: Yeah.

13:23Dani Moreno: Um, so now I have sodium. I'm afraid of my salt now.

13:27Scott H.: Yeah. Well, then I went back to her and I was like, Kyla, I don't know what we did. And she's like, tell me again what you put in your bottles and she's like oh my gosh you very much over salted yourself like that's why that happened i was like oh i'm never making that mistake again like how much how much

13:43Dani Moreno: are we talking because i want to know i'm trying to self-reflect here too yeah i probably over

13:49Scott H.: salted by like 300 milligrams per hour but it was like a long run so it like really started to accumulate um and yeah it just was it's like just enough to put me over because i i'm a heavy salter too.

14:03Dani Moreno: I was a thousand milligrams an hour and I took some when I started and it was a three hour long run. And that was enough. I think that's what it was. That sounds like a little bit too much. I'm not going to do that much moving forward.

14:15Scott H.: Yeah. Yeah. I think when all was said and done, I was doing like 1200 per hour, which was obscene. But yeah.

14:23T.J. A.: There was some cool information that came out after Western States, I think it was two years ago. And it showed eight of the top 10 men, those who are willing to talk about it, their exact nutritional plans or in their words or their cruise words exact, they gave ranges, but people were going from 600 up to 1200 milligrams per hour. That is an enormous range. Yeah. And all of them were top 10.

14:56Scott H.: Yeah, it's so individualized. It's crazy. Like I have people on my team that sweat like 200 milligrams and they their hardest part is finding products that don't have sodium. Right. They just want straight sugar. And then other runners that do sweat 1500 milligrams of sodium per hour, like they're just so salty. And so for them, it's like, how can I add sodium to the gels that already have sodium? So it's just so individualized.

15:25T.J. A.: I worked with a guy once who his wife was a fairly good age group athlete for Ironman. And in Ironman, Wisconsin, she called him from the bike and she's like, I need salt. And he ended up just going to McDonald's along the way and getting their salt packets. And then at the next aid station, they just taped like 30 packets to her bars. And for the rest of the day, just kept like, I can't even do the math on what she might have taken in. And she just got better every hour. And there are people who would have shut down their GI with that. But again, crazy. The range, the fluid per hour was all within like 2 to 250 milliliters of all of them.

16:07T.J. A.: But the sodium was the biggest range on everyone's.

16:11Scott H.: Yeah. And I think that's why it's important. If you're going to... I know it costs money, but it's so worth the investment just for your health. that if you're doing an effort that is like, I would say longer than two hours, like an Ironman, a marathon or an ultra marathon, like get a sweat test, like just at least once, because also it's like in her case, it worked out, but it could have been also, you know, another athlete experiencing the same symptoms. It wasn't that they needed salt. They actually just need more water, you know? So it's like really finding that balance that like salt isn't always the answer.

16:49Scott H.: it's like still just so individualized.

16:53Dani Moreno: Didn't know we were going to talk about this off the cuff. I had an agenda. We went left right away. I have some things I want to get to with you today, Danny, but now I have to ask because you said you just finished up a gym session. What were you doing in the gym specifically? I want to know what pro ultra runner Danny does in the gym.

17:10Scott H.: Sub ultra runner, sorry. No, it's okay. I'm a little bit of everything. Yeah. Um, so my sister is my strength coach and she, she's so freaking intelligent, has her master's in physiology, was like a strength coach and also trail runs and like was a college athlete. And, uh, because she also trail runs, I'm just like, I love the workout she gives me, but I started the workout with some plyos, like resisted plyos. So like where I have some bands on me and I'm doing some jumps, um, and then switched to a little bit of heavy lifting. Like we maxed out a couple of months ago. So now it's just about like maintaining power, some hex bar lifts, a lot of things with medicine ball, some ISO holds and yeah, finished out with some core.

18:01Scott H.: I would say that's pretty much like the template is like plyos, strength, ISO, core and rinse and repeat based on where I'm at in my seat.

18:09Dani Moreno: Which big lifts, let's call that the heavy stuff, which lifts do you feel like moves the needle the most for you in the running space?

18:19Scott H.: Hex bar lifts, any sort of like step up and a lot of single leg, like single leg with the bar, single leg with dumbbells. Um, but yeah, I would say like stepping up in all the directions, you know, whether like you're stepping down, uh, stepping laterally, uh, I find those help the most. And then fly is like 110%, especially cause I do my best to go to strength right after workout. So today I did a four by eight kind of like tempo. Um, and I just go to the gym like right after, uh, because for me, I think it really helps with like my muscular endurance.

19:00Dani Moreno: And you, if I'm not mistaken, you can kind of eat a little bit on the downhills, right? Do you think the gym has anything to do with that or no? Or is it just fearless? Yes.

19:12Scott H.: Oh, yeah. I think it is a bit like I can, I kind of refer to like as a shark, like getting a sniff of blood in the water. And then I just feel like I'm really good at turning my brain off when I need to. and then just kind of just picking the straightest line. But I do find the gym helps quite a bit, especially, like I said, like I'll do step downs and I'll jump off of boxes and then jump onto another one. You know, single leg, both legs, do some lateral movements. And I think forcing the legs to take in kind of just like, I don't know, to, what does she call them? I'm kind of forgetting, but I also do this move where like I'm kind of lifting my leg up while I'm holding the medicine ball and I like go into the ground.

20:02Scott H.: Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Oh, deceleration, deceleration stuff. Yeah.

20:07T.J. A.: So when did you begin hard plyo work? I would say last year was when I started,

20:14Scott H.: uh, cause I've had two injuries back to back. Um, but this injury, we hit it a lot harder and I felt my elasticity and my tendons come back a lot faster than it did last year was probably the biggest uh game changer like it really opened my eyes because I mean I was out for like five months completely and I felt it like when I started to run again just like had no pop like I just felt like I was pulling and so once we introduced the plyos I felt the hops start to feel a little bit more even because it was one of my, my right foot was done. Um, so yeah.

20:55T.J. A.: So you began it as part of rehab.

20:57Scott H.: Yeah, exactly. As soon as I was cleared to do it, I started doing it.

21:00T.J. A.: Do you think you could have built into it while running volume?

21:03Scott H.: Um, probably, uh, just because I trust my team and they all have access to my training peaks, like my running coach, strength coach, and nutritionist are all in training peaks. They all know what I'm doing and they can see the load. And so I would trust them to be able to see what I can handle. But I say that like I've been a runner. Like I've been running more in my life than I haven't at this point. I don't know if I would like recommend that.

21:32Dani Moreno: So do you know when the last time we chatted was Danny? I just looked. Do you know how long it was?

21:37Scott H.: It was probably 2022.

21:40Dani Moreno: Okay. You're good. Dang it. I thought it was like two years ago. It was four. It was four years ago to the week. Four? Yeah.

21:46Scott H.: I think it was after Mont Blanc marathon maybe.

21:49Dani Moreno: Yes. You were in France when we talked to you initially. And so it was June of 2022. I'd been paying attention to you. Obviously you had been racing quite well. And you had kind of, not just burst onto the scene, but I believe you had had your first pro contract. I think you were still working or in between working and being full-time pro. Does that sound right about that time.

22:14Scott H.: Yeah. I still worked for another year after that.

22:17Dani Moreno: Yeah. But I believe you had had some, some sponsorships at least. And you were, you were kind of like, Hey, maybe this could be my full-time thing. And I believe that is your full-time thing now, correct? You are, you're still all in. Okay. And so you'd come on the, you'd been racing well, you had really kind of come through the ranks. And so I was paying closer attention after we chatted, of course, I felt invested. And then it seemed like things started popping up for you, right? Roadblocks and such. You looking for your pup? Is your pup straying?

22:50Scott H.: Oh, no. He's right here. Oh, he's right there.

22:52Dani Moreno: He's behind you. And so then you had to go the whole like, the future is so bright. I'm so encouraged and optimistic for where this thing is going to go. ambitious as heck. And then you have some sideline situations. And then I've been following along. And I think last year at Broken Arrow, you were maybe, was it third or something last year, if I remember correctly?

23:15Scott H.: Yeah, I was third last year.

23:17Dani Moreno: Third. And then you came and just crushed souls this last weekend at Broken Arrow in the 46K. And it felt like a very emotional culmination of the official return, we will call it. Am I telling the storyline vaguely correctly or no here?

23:34Scott H.: I would say you got like 80 % of it correct.

23:37Dani Moreno: Okay, well, what am I missing?

23:38Scott H.: Which is pretty good. Yeah, so I went full-time pro July, and then a month later I broke my foot.

23:46T.J. A.: So I was running the last downhill of OCC,

23:52Scott H.: and I ended up tying for the fastest time ever on that descent, which I take a lot of pride in considering how many runners have run that, and it's very historic. but 3k from the finish I because I shut my brain off when I do stuff like that took a line where I ran through some water whereas everyone else ran over a bridge I just ran through the river because I was like this is the fastest way forward and by doing that when I hit the next section of like rocks because they were kind of cobblestone-y it got really slippery and my foot just flipped on itself. And I like went into some trees. Long story long, I finished the race, but I walked away with a cracked cuboid and my pranice longest torn.

24:38Scott H.: And when it tore, it also took off the sheath of my cuboid. And so I was nursing that pretty much like -

24:46T.J. A.: You had 3K to go still?

24:47Scott H.: What'd you say?

24:48T.J. A.: You had 3K to go?

24:50Scott H.: Yeah, I think adrenaline just like hit because I was like laying on the side And I heard I heard it like you just know when something's bad. And I looked back and the woman that I'd passed like eight minutes ago was coming. And I think my brain just like turned on again and I finished. But once I crossed the finish line, I was like, oh, like this is bad. Like this does not feel good.

25:15Dani Moreno: Like my ankle just had no give.

25:16Scott H.: um and so that 2023 oh no wait sorry that was 2024 sorry so I even skipped a year um that whole winter I was nursing that and it was just up and down up and down and so last year's broken arrow was coming off of that so that's how long did you have to sorry to interrupt but how long did you

25:41Dani Moreno: have to take off a running for those like no impact off a running from, cause I had two foot stress fractures simultaneously. It's my last big injury back in 2020. And I was five months straight. I didn't, I'd tell I took my first run step. Uh, how long was yours?

25:56Scott H.: Oh, not long enough because I was cleared to do probably more than I should have been cleared to do. Um, so two months completely off in a boot. And then I was allowed to like start coming back, but it wasn't feeling correct. Like it just, it wasn't getting better, even though people are like, oh, this is part of the process, which most of the time it is. And so that's when I went back and they're like, oh, your tendon is like not truly connected. So I got like that second diagnosis and then I had another month off. So it was like three and a half months total, but it was like on off, on off. And so last year's Broken Arrow was huge, felt big for that reason.

26:34Scott H.: Like that was already, it felt like a really hard comeback. Like I'd started running in February, kind of similar to this year. And it was the Team USA selection race. And I just felt like I didn't have enough runway or time. And so that third place, almost catching second and first just felt like huge in the moment. And then I got a high off of that. And then two weeks later, I broke my toe on my other foot and it's just like I was wearing this is not made up I was wearing toe spreaders at my house and I took a corner and it just clipped my toe because it was already spread out

27:22Dani Moreno: and were you running around a corner what were you doing just walking brushing my teeth yeah

27:27Scott H.: I think I just it's something I've done for years like it's just I brush my teeth put on my toe spreaders walk around but that day my brain miscalculated its spatial awareness um and so I tried because like everyone has an opinion about broken toes I always joke that like they're more polarizing maybe than politics because some people are like just like sit it out put it in a boot other people like oh you run through it like you'll be fine like I've broken a ton of toes and so I was somewhere in the middle where it's like I was trying to cross chain get ready for a race. Um, I started CCC dropped out because I was just in so much pain and by trying to work through it, you know, life has its way of doing things.

28:12Scott H.: I made it worse and I completely broke the toe. So that's why I was in so much pain. Like I completely like broke the top of my toe off. And so the only way to, sorry, the imagery was funny.

28:25T.J. A.: Like the end of your metatarsal broke off.

28:27Scott H.: Yes, exactly. And so I like because it cracked laterally across the bone, the tip of it broke off from me trying to run through it. So it proved I have a high pain tolerance still. But the only way to fix that is you either partially amputate your toe or you could try to get bone from another area of your body, put it in kind of like a shish kebab, pin it and hope that it takes it. Which toe? My fifth. Not even a fun one.

29:01Dani Moreno: My pinky toe.

29:03Scott H.: And so I did surgery. And while it was like kind of holding my breath for months, it actually ended up working. And the reason why they were scared it wasn't going to work is because it's like you couldn't get further away from your body. And your body like constantly deprioritizes its healing because it's so far from your heart. it's like really hard to get blood flow from it um but like if i was a road runner i would have like partially amputated it but because i'm a trail runner i really need my balance and your pinky toe is like so important for balance um which toe would you give up which toe would i give up yeah i mean if i had to it probably would be the pinky toe or like the fourth to last one i would say but not the big toe no i think i could give up my middle toe looking my middle my middle toe is what i think yeah yeah that's probably a smart one is the middle toe because i still have a platform i feel like i could operate without my middle finger quite well

30:05Dani Moreno: too i feel like it would translate no to feet maybe um i guess the good news is i guess i'm just like i don't know rose tinted glassing this is it's not overused stuff huh these are like

30:18Scott H.: freak accident things yeah and i think that's i mean this winter was really hard because like i was out for five months like you couldn't put anything on the foot or the toe like they didn't want me like even trying to bend it like they wanted it to heal as stiff as possible um but yeah it's hard like explaining to people that both for like kind of freak accidents um and And yeah, no, the body, the body's still good. So this year I started later with less time and Broken Arrow. Yeah, just ended up feeling like a big win because like I wasn't running much. It was actually more strength training than anything, I would say, that like helped me win that race.

31:03Scott H.: And it feels good to get some momentum. And I, you know, I threw away the toe spreaders. So fingers crossed this year, I'll make it to Chamonix healthy.

31:13T.J. A.: You didn't just change your protocol?

31:15Scott H.: Nope. Nope. I just, I was like, you know what? There's other ways to spread my toes. I don't need those.

31:20T.J. A.: Okay. So what did your, what did your cardiovascular rehab look like for the foot fracture versus the toe surgery once you were no longer able to bend it? Yeah, so the foot fracture, I was cleared to bike quite quickly, which was, I think, quite nice because I could bike and I could swim with a buoy in between my legs.

31:46Scott H.: And so my upper body got quite strong from doing that. I would have liked to aqua jog, but the doctor said he just didn't want any flexion with the tendon. then the toe fracture oh man like I I was like he's like you could go to the gym and like ski erg if you wanted like sitting down you can do the arm bike if you want um but this time just coming off of another injury I was like you know what I'm just gonna take time off like this is probably gonna help me in the long run this is what feels right in this moment it's probably going to feel like really hard when I get back, but just like resetting my whole system.

32:33Scott H.: I did like a lot of red light therapy, PMF. I did hyperbaric chamber this time. And I think just like hitting my body with the hyperbaric chamber, like 10 days in a row in itself was super healing. And yeah, I mean, that's pretty much. And then once I got the pin taken out, cause that was the biggest hindrance.

32:54T.J. A.: How long was that before it was taken out? uh the pin was in for 10 weeks yeah it was it was looking pretty dark like six weeks he was like

33:05Scott H.: I don't know like keep doing everything it just wasn't taking the bone because lack of oxygen truly um and my nutritionist was trying to do as much as she could too like I was getting blood panels the whole time I was uh out to make sure my body was optimized and then finally like Like at six weeks, it started to color in and like start to take. But it took a minute for sure.

33:33T.J. A.: How dark did it get for you?

33:35Scott H.: Oh, I was the most depressed I ever was. Especially because when I got my pin taken out, two days later, I was on my leg scooter and I fell forward. I was just walking with my dog and I split my knee open all the way to the bone. and I'd just been cleared to run, and I was just like, I give up. I have this very clear memory of being in the ER with my friend and telling her, dude, I know I won't give up, but in this moment I feel like I just need to. I'm not going to give up in the long run, but I almost need to just let myself go to the most bottom part of the pit so I can like rebuild myself again because this constant like trying to hold on is exhausting um and so yeah I I mean I was depressed truly I was working with a sports psych and a regular psych um because yeah it was it was kind of because it was freak accidents it almost made it harder it was like okay this is just like bad luck at this point like what is going on um but I got out of it you know, with loved ones and professional help and like myself, like choosing not to give up.

34:56Scott H.: Like I eventually got out of it. And like, I hate to say I'm grateful for that time because it sucked, but I am grateful for like that, that chapter.

35:05Dani Moreno: I have a lot of follow-up questions. First of all, what, uh, um, with your knee, what did you end up doing to your knee? Did you crack your kneecap? Did you bruise the bone? What happened?

35:13Scott H.: I got super lucky. Um, I had to get 14 stitches and I basically just tore like the skin and the fat. But if I had hit it higher or lower, it could have been really bad for like my ACL and like, or whatever's in there. They were saying some tendons in there. That's what I was most worried about. Or, oh no, if I hit lower, he said I could have really messed up my bursa like under the kneecap, which could have been bad long-term.

35:42Dani Moreno: Are you injury prone out of curiosity? Or is this, are these the three accidents you've had?

35:47Scott H.: I mean, I was uninjured since like 2013, I would say. Like in college, I had a couple of things, but it's easy to look back now, and it was like very much nutrition, like under fueling. Like I had two stress fractures. But other than that, I am so durable and not injury prone. And so, yeah, these really rocked me. Even like tendons and strains, I never really had any issues with those either. The only other major injury I had is I broke my left talus in a climbing accident. So at like a rock gym. Yeah.

36:25T.J. A.: Sounds a little bit like you, Bracken, doesn't it? We're not even going to put that out into the universe.

36:29Dani Moreno: No, I mean, you had historically been very injury-free by large, and then you had a bout of injury, which you had to adjust to.

36:37T.J. A.: And how did mine start? I kicked a rock and broke my big toe.

36:40Dani Moreno: Oh, no. In a race, right?

36:43T.J. A.: Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. Big toe. Not same toe, but just a freak incident, kicked something, broke the toe, and rushed it. That led to one thing. Anyway, you're not doing that. You're back. You're fine. So when we had talked last, you were not with Adidas, I don't believe.

37:01Scott H.: No, I was with Hoka.

37:02T.J. A.: So when did you sign with Adidas?

37:05Scott H.: I signed with Adidas end of 2022. too so coming off of the podium at Mont Blanc marathon and then I podiumed at OCC a couple months later which is like part of the big three at UTMB week OCC CCC UTMB and so after that I like had a couple of offers and ultimately chose Adidas because it felt they just had a good team atmosphere but it had the athletes that I felt most aligned with like that I wanted to learn from like athletes who had done what I wanted to do. Um, and so yeah, I ended up, uh, signing with them and I've been with them since then.

37:44T.J. A.: So what was that like then having a fresh new deal and then you're going to shelf?

37:49Scott H.: Yeah, it was, it was really hard. I, and I also had just quit my job and I was like, what are the odds that I like choose to finally go professional? Um, after all these years. Like I had already been running semi-professional for six years at that point, but still working in tech. But I was grateful that I didn't have a job so I could like really lean into my recovery. Like I don't think I could have been able to put as much time into PT and rehab in like a quality sense, get all the sleep, go see specialists, et cetera, if I still was working in tech. So for that case, I was very grateful. And I did feel supported by like the management team that they were like, you'll be back.

38:35Scott H.: Like we trust that. And so that was really nice.

38:39Dani Moreno: That is really nice.

38:41Scott H.: Yeah.

38:41Dani Moreno: What does that conversation look like? And you don't have to give exact details, but I mean, you just signed something. I assume it's a, I don't know, however long it is for, but I assume it's up a year or something. That conversation, like how does a conversation like that go with a supporting team? Clearly you're still with them. So obviously it went fairly well. Like what is, what is that conversation like? Take it wherever you want.

39:04Scott H.: Yeah. I think it's just, I don't know, just being upfront with them and being like, this is the situation. This is the range of time I think I'm going to need. And you know, like if I needed more resources, like asking the worst they can say is no. And yeah, I, you know, they, they would check in here and there, but it's a pretty big team. And so it was more about me kind of like reaching out at some points, but I felt, I felt supported, which was like the end all end all with that being said, when then I broke my toe, it, that conversation was more of like, this is horrible timing and I'm going to try to make it happen.

39:48Scott H.: And that was, that was the hardest thing I probably had to navigate with my management team was, do I try to make this race happen with a broken toe? And there was just so many pros and cons.

40:02T.J. A.: Like you're talking to CCC. Yeah.

40:04Scott H.: CCC last year, like having that second injury then happen of like, you just had this comeback. There's more to come. Oh, I literally just broke my toe two weeks later. What are the odds of that happening?

40:15T.J. A.: Well, and I remember in the buildup, there were really only two other brands maybe that seemed to have as big or close to a push as Adidas put for the UTMB weekend. There was a lot of content, shoes, athletes wearing a lot of things happening. That would be a hard one to skip.

40:34Scott H.: It is. And it's hard because there's yeah, there's so much more than just the race, you know, like an athlete having a presence at the UTMB week and like, you know, I was considered a favorite. So there's like stuff that comes along with that. And yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll keep the cons away, but like the things that I was trying to kind of grapple with is like, okay, would Patrick Mahomes sit out the Superbowl if he had a broken toe. And it's not apples to apples, but just like trying to take in that, like, this is my job. The best thing I could do is at least try. And in the end, like I'm going to make the best, I'm going to make the best decisions I can with the information I had available.

41:21Scott H.: It's like the information I had available was the last x-ray, my doctor being like, it's, it's like, it looks okay. It's not the best. It's not the worst. It looks okay. and just going off a pain threshold. But yeah, it was a tough decision. I don't regret it because life is life and you learn.

41:39Dani Moreno: That'd be so different if you were a roadrunner. It would be much more black and white, wouldn't it? I mean, really, you could probably brace the toe, find a shoe that worked for it, get through it, but there's just no way. How far in did you pull the plug in that race? How far in was it obvious?

41:56Scott H.: I wanted to pull the plug after an hour and a half, But because of the aid stations and the nature of it, because I was all the way in Italy, I had to get to France or else it would have taken longer for someone to get me. And so it's a ridiculous statement to make.

42:13T.J. A.: I just had to get to France.

42:15Scott H.: And so I just did kind of like a walk shuffle for seven hours.

42:20T.J. A.: Like this is with the tip of your toe cracked off.

42:24Scott H.: Yeah. And yeah, it was really painful. I think how long do you think you went with that? I probably had that. I think I remember the day. Well, probably for like two to two and a half weeks. I think it probably was together. And then I remember this one, like two weeks out from the race. It just felt significantly worse. And I was like, okay, I did a number to this trying to make this work.

42:49T.J. A.: So clean break two weeks out. And then you made it how many hours on a race day before you got off your feet?

42:53Scott H.: seven but the section should have taken me four and a half like i walked a lot um your pain

43:01T.J. A.: tolerance does seem to be uh like you said high still but not trustworthy for rpe's sake no

43:10Scott H.: no yeah i think the best thing i've done for my training in the last two years is going off a heart rate instead of rpe um but for um yeah the to your point kirk like running flat was fine it was it's just the fact that you have so much flexion point when you're running uphill and so much flexion when you're going down like of course you're like pointing down but every step you're taking for just has so much more impact and so yeah i was like if this was a road half no problem. Like I'd be able to make it work. But as soon as we went more than 15%, I was like, ow, ow, ow, this hurts. Like, yeah.

43:53Dani Moreno: Question about, um, so basically coming back, running Broken Arrow two years ago, having a great race, injuring yourself again, basically rewriting this, a similar story. I have a number of athletes I coach. I'm thinking of two in particular who have come off of injury bouts and now ramping up to their next ultra. They're finally back to being able to do the thing they wanted to do post-injury. And I feel like these athletes are finding the need to prove to themselves before the race they're ready. Meaning I need to go do a big test long run of five hours to prove I'm ready, or I need to hit 80 miles a week to prove I'm ready.

44:35Dani Moreno: Where what I've been trying to preach to these two athletes in particular is like, let's find out on race day because I don't know if the risk is worth the reward. Like if we do this right, it may all come together when it needs to. You'll be available, healthy, questioning your ability, but most likely it should come together. So what I'm getting at with you is what that, was that the case with Broken Arrow both years was like, I'm going to ramp up into this. It's going to feel a little bit like Russian roulette, but if I, if we knew what we were doing, it'll come together? Or was it a, I knew what I was capable of beforehand.

45:08Dani Moreno: I just had to go out and do it. Or were they both like, surprise, it worked.

45:14Scott H.: Yeah, they were both very different. The first time I, similar to your athletes, felt like I needed something. Like I needed to race. I needed to prove that I was going to be okay and that my body could handle it because both times, like you could only do a run walk problem or a program so fast. Like that thing takes weeks, like one minute, one minute, two minute, one minute. Like I could say it in my sleep now. And like, you have to listen to the pain and like take days off if you need it. And last year I was, especially with it being a team USA selection race with like against the field, I was like, why am I doing this?

45:54Scott H.: Um, I also had like a little ego chip on my shoulder because I had never lost at that distance in the States. and I was like why am I gonna line up and like get my butt kicked at this distance that I know I'm like I'm excellent at that I love and that I thrive at and so I was grappling with like some confidence ego stuff there and so I did race a couple times and it helped and ultimately the end all be all broken arrow went really well did the races go well in the lead-in they did yeah they did and I did too um and one of them was when I had done like a couple of times including before the Mont Blanc podium and like I ran like a minute slower and I was like okay I'm gonna be fine um there was also I will say devil's advocate last year I had a big trauma block on my downhills because I broke my foot on the downhills like I was really scared like I used I was walking things I would have never walked before.

46:57Scott H.: And so it was also like trusting I would know what to do there. This year, I think because I had had that experience last year, I felt no need to race beforehand. Like I just was craving training, consistency, and more than anything, like I just believed I could do it because I had before. And that was really helpful to like have had just that experience. Um, and yeah, it's just every time I would, you know, hit a new mark, I was like, I was thirsty for more and I was like, okay, can I do that again? Like, can I do another hour run? Cause that's, what's going to help me in the long run. And then for the workouts, it's not, I never did anything spectacular, but some days I just had enough days, maybe two or three where I felt my power and I was like, oh, I'm going to be fine.

47:50Scott H.: Like I'll know what to do on race day. I'll read the field. um so yeah i don't know if that answered your question uh it does because you just told me

47:58Dani Moreno: that there's multiple ways to do it um i think i think i'm afraid of uh rushing like putting a timeline on it that is unrealistic saying we need to build to this type of mileage or this type of long run or this type of workout when i feel it should just you should let it come to you and then the cards will fall on race day how they fall versus you know fall ending up in the same boat because you felt the crunch of the timeline, I think is my fear for one of these people in particular. But it sounds like you didn't do that. You let the comeback come to you, took the volume you could, and then you landed on race day with the fitness you had.

48:36Scott H.: Yeah, 100%. And I wrote this on an Instagram post, but it was something that I journaled earlier on. It's just like, meet yourself where you're at. When you start worrying about where you aren't, it's actually more stress-giving. and just like do what you can. Like physiology has its limits. You can only do so much, especially when you're coming off an injury. And, you know, big shout out to my coach, Tom Evans. Like he was really good, but a vast majority of my broken arrow block, I ran 40 miles a week, like just across. Like it's just a straight line because he knew that's what my body could handle.

49:15Scott H.: And we filled in the gaps with strength training and a little bit of biking. but it wasn't like it, it wasn't, it was not my best block ever. Like it wasn't sexy. It wasn't spectacular. It was just good. And it got me to the line healthy and happy. And as long as you get to a line healthy to happy, you're probably going to have a problem.

49:33Dani Moreno: Let's reiterate that folks. I think it took you what, four hours and 40 some minutes you went in. Is that correct? Or four, right? 4.48. 4.46, 4.48. Okay. Thanks, Bracken. So for a four hour and 40 some minute race, granted you have decades of money in your running bank account, 40 miles a week, I'm sure there's quite a bit of vert in there, but nonetheless, you were able to race up to a near five hour race.

49:59Scott H.: Yeah.

50:00Dani Moreno: That's, I mean, that says something because volume is just so sexy right now, Danny. I mean, it always has been, but pushing that envelope is just all the rage, just eat the carbs and run the miles. And so to no calculated strikes and a moderate amount of volume done consistently would beat the alternative, which is too much volume injury. So I just like hearing that. I'm a 60 mile a week at peak trying to run ultras and it seems to be working. Nothing spectacular on my Strava, but it keeps me available and consistent. I think there's a lot of power to that over time.

50:37Scott H.: Yeah. I think, yeah, make low mileage cool again. And just what you like quality over quantity too. It's like, not everyone can run a hundred plus miles a week. And it's like, at the end of the week, asking yourself, like, can I do that again? Can I do that again? Like consistently good over the occasionally great, I think will ultimately is like one of the best recipes.

51:03T.J. A.: So let's say your build had gone uninterrupted the last four years. What would that mileage have looked like moving into this race?

51:11Scott H.: I would have, I would guess between like 70 and 80 miles a week. You know, like Kirk says, like there's definitely some vert sprinkled in. Yeah, since I've done trails, I haven't quite, I think I've hit a hundred maybe once because because I was down at sea level and there wasn't a lot of vert. And I was going, like, I had a bunch of long runs. With that being said, like, I did make a coaching change a couple years ago. And I think it was really good for my career to switch it up. Like, I'm time-based now. I do, like, a lot of steep climbing, so slow. And we do, yeah, we do bike and we do a lot of strength.

51:53Scott H.: Whereas, like, my previous program was more, like, traditional road marathon. coaching. And I think it was good for where I was in my career. But yeah, I'm really grateful for the change. And I mean, having two pretty good comebacks in a short amount of time, I know it's working.

52:14T.J. A.: That'd be the weakness of low mileage is that if you have to stop doing it, there might not be much waiting.

52:21Scott H.: Exactly. Yeah.

52:23T.J. A.: And you passed that test.

52:24Scott H.: Yeah.

52:25T.J. A.: So that's really reassuring.

52:26Scott H.: Yeah, it is. It is really reassuring.

52:29T.J. A.: So with your training, if you're doing a lot of vert and a lot of trail, and this seems to be the trend right now of a lot of conversation I've had with some runners, they're struggling with a sluggishness and cadence. As they go bigger vert, as they go more trail, they just move away from some of it. So outside of your plyo, what all do you do that is responsible for you not losing an ounce of your speed?

52:57Scott H.: We haven't, to be honest, like both of these like comeback blocks, we haven't worked too much on speed because I haven't had time for it. So we've been super strength based. And yeah, I think there are some trail races where like pure speed is a very good asset to have. But if you look at your total time and your average pace, you are rarely running super fast. And so I think if there's just one thing you focus on, I think it's strength. And so, yeah, I do a lot of gravel riding uphill, like on dirt. And I think that's quite helpful for getting some pop in the legs. And usually because I do like a little bit of coaching, too, like if someone's feeling sluggish, the first thing I look at is their recovery runs.

53:47Scott H.: like are they going slow enough like are they truly in zone one um because the heart can only do so much but if your heart can go then usually your legs can go and if the heart is going and the legs aren't going then it's like what can we address as far as like the outside shell of your car like what muscular endurance is lacking and so that's when i start to point to okay maybe you start including more gym work, um, or just, you know, whatever you have time for, because yeah, it's, it's pretty interesting, like getting more into like the heart rate stuff versus like RPE.

54:25Dani Moreno: How much time on the bike? Let's just say, just to understand the aerobic picture, let's say you're 40 miles with vert take five to six hours a week of running. I would assume I'm guessing how much additional volume do you like to put in on the bike? maybe four to five hours okay so a lot really that's a good bit yeah like i'll have like this

54:50Scott H.: week i have two bikes one is a double and our rule of thumb is if i feel good i can double it if i don't feel uh if i feel tired i can half it so it's an hour if i feel good i can do as much as two hours if i'm feeling quite tired i can do 20 and i stick to that rule like when i'm tired i'll just literally do like a town loop on my bike. If I'm feeling good, then I'll, you know, add some climbing and stuff like that. Um, yeah, I would say, and then as we got closer to Broken Arrow, I took the bike out. I think it was like maybe two hours total, like a couple 30 minute rides here and there, but I'm in the gym like four hours a week, I would say.

55:32T.J. A.: That's gotta be high of your peer group?

55:35Scott H.: I think so. Like talking to people. Yeah.

55:40T.J. A.: Are those four one hour sessions or are they multiple less or do you, do you spend a couple of days in there really long? What does it look like?

55:46Scott H.: Two sessions are 90 minutes. And then one session is like 30 to an hour. And that will normally be more like not as heavy lifting, kind of just like doing more basic movements and stuff like that, but the 90 minutes are like quite comprehensive.

56:03T.J. A.: And that's coming off of a quality session.

56:05Scott H.: Yes. So yeah, I mean, this morning took me 90 minutes and then I just went straight into the gym for 90 minutes in total.

56:12T.J. A.: I mean, in terms of like calories and fueling and things, that's a long time window that you're getting things out of.

56:19Scott H.: Yeah. And I mean, I'm very grateful because our gym, there's a gentleman, he owns this place. It's called All American Dave's. Dave is awesome. and what I do with my nutritionist is she plans out the calorie kind of breakdown I need before and after workouts and so I'll send him my after workout and I'll he has it ready to go so like as soon as I get to the gym I'll eat that and then I'll go into my gym session and then I'll go grab one more meal and then I'll head home and so I feel really grateful to have someone that's like that in tuned. I'll be like, okay, today I need a 90-40 split. And so I show up, I chow that down and I never used to do stuff like that.

57:00Scott H.: That has been a huge game changer, like fueling the pre-session, but also the post-session that I just came off of. Not to keep spamming that name, but who's that remind you of, Kirk?

57:11T.J. A.: That's exactly what Hans recently said changed in his training when he went full-time. He fueled before and after. He said changed his availability immediately.

57:22Dani Moreno: Anything over 50 minutes, I think he said, right? Yeah. Anything over 50, yeah. Question about the gym. Do you keep vanity lifts in your strength workout? Like is Danny like bench pressing or like bicep curling or like are you doing any of that stuff just because you got to? Or does that when you're a pro runner, does that stuff have to stay out? Do you tell me?

57:41Scott H.: I don't do. Yeah, I don't do that.

57:44Dani Moreno: No?

57:45Scott H.: No. I can't help myself.

57:48Dani Moreno: I still vanity lift, and I know pecs don't help you run fast, but I just can't help myself.

57:53Scott H.: Yeah. I think, to me, the pliles are kind of sexy because, like, people are like, whoa, what's going on over there? She's, like, jumping off of stuff and picking things up and throwing them.

58:04T.J. A.: So Danny's got go muscle and Kirk has show muscle. Apparently. Mine's useless. Yeah.

58:12Dani Moreno: All right. I was just curious. Does anybody on the team, like, like if like, does anybody do like non-functional lifts? Like, is anybody shoulder pressing or like doing pull-ups or like, is that stuff just like not encouraged and almost discouraged?

58:26Scott H.: I know people that do some pull-ups and stuff. I can't think of anyone that does bench presses. Yeah, I would say a lot of it is like functional movement, I would say. with that being said it's kind of interesting like strength training is the least i know from

58:48Dani Moreno: my competitors like what other athletes are doing um it's pretty easy to be like i'm running this

58:54Scott H.: much with you know i have a tempo i have threshold i have uphill like that's pretty shared that's

59:01Dani Moreno: more commonly than i would say strength workouts okay i was just personally curious yeah not a lot

59:07Scott H.: of people are doing a ton of strength either. I don't think though.

59:11T.J. A.: I didn't realize you were working with Tom Evans. I was blown away by, as you know, he documented a lot of his lead-in towards UTMB. And I was blown away by his strength setup in his house. Yeah.

59:26Scott H.: He has such a nice setup.

59:27T.J. A.: He had real bumper play. He was another one that looked like he's deadlifting. He's squatting. He's doing Bulgarian split squat. Like he's doing real lifting and he looks like even physically, you look at him and you see like, he looks durable.

59:43Scott H.: Totally. And that's like, it's funny you say that because that's the main thing he's preaching to me now post Broken Arrow is it's not let's get you the fastest you've ever been. It's like, let's get you extremely durable. That's like the goal of the training. And whenever, cause he puts things in at a weekly time, like I could, I can just see it like already this week. I'm like, okay, I can see. But yeah, Tom is great. I, I really, I'm really happy I chose him as a coach because I had like a few different options. He's just very level headed and patient, I would say, especially through these injuries.

1:00:25Scott H.: I think a lot of coaches would have been like, all right, let's ramp you up. Let's get you back to where you were. And he was like, Nope, we're going to do the least amount possible for the longest amount of time that we can that like time allows. Um, and yeah, he's just really smart. He's big stats guy.

1:00:41T.J. A.: So outside of the obvious, why are you going in on durability right now? What's the, what's the focus with the season or the race future?

1:00:54Scott H.: Yeah. I mean, um, you know, I hiked most of CCC last year. And when I was hiking it, I was just like, wow, I think I could be really good at this course. Like, it's very inspiring to me. The terrain, I think, suits a lot of my strengths. And I am at a point in my career where, you know, I've focused on this, like, marathon to 50K distance for probably, like, five to seven years now. and so I'm just especially with these injuries like a career is only so long especially like at peak power and fitness and I really would like to start stepping up and like trying new things and see if I like them and if I'm good at them um and so yeah I'm gonna give CCC another crack this year and it was one of those things again in January I'm like how am I gonna pull this off like remote, like how am I going to do this?

1:01:53Scott H.: But with Broken Arrow, I was like, okay, I can do this. I just need to continue believing in myself, following the training and just let my team do the thinking. And I just follow the plan.

1:02:04T.J. A.: It has to be reassuring to see that the people who won OCC and then go on to win or do well at CCC seem to be able to write their own check to where they go from there. We just saw Francesco debut at Western States in a way that I don't think any of us would have guessed three years ago or even last year that things like that you ccc seems to be the long if you can master that it seems to be like you your legs are ready to go wherever they want to go yeah i would agree with that it's uh the course has everything and so you need to be pretty

1:02:38Scott H.: good at everything like fast short climbs long long climbs like two hour climbs semi-technical descending you have to be able to run there's like an eight mile section where you're just like on this balcony trail running um and it the terrain gets harder as you go on so you need a lot of like mental fortitude but you need to be really smart with your training and so to me it's like a very exciting puzzle to tackle but yeah to your point like i'd also like to try western states at some point and ccc has golden tickets and you know like the goal is to win like i think if you're a professional at this point, like you need to believe you can win if you're going to be in the mix, you know, like 15 people on the start line, 20, 25, believe they can win and you should be one of those people.

1:03:26Scott H.: And the day, you know, unfolds as it always does. Like things, it just, you get the day that you get. But also CCC tickets tend to roll down. I don't want to count on that, but there's a lot of people that say no there compared to other races.

1:03:41Dani Moreno: What's the course profile? distance invert?

1:03:44Scott H.: It's 100K with roughly 20 ,000 feet of vert.

1:03:48Dani Moreno: 20 ,000 feet. Yeah, that's decent. It's decent. Yeah. Nice clean numbers. Nice. Yeah. Nice clean numbers. Hey, can I, can I ask you about shoes?

1:03:57Scott H.: Yeah.

1:03:58Dani Moreno: Okay. Well, the listeners know I've been in shoe turmoil and I've blown all my bank accounts on all the shoes, playing around with both the roads and the trails. I haven't necessarily found like my Cinderella slipper yet, but I'm close. Um, so I got my first pair of Adidas. Uh, what, what shoe did I get back in the speed ultra two, speed ultra two? Yes. Um, but I haven't had enough time in it yet to be confident that I'm going to be able to wear it this weekend. So I'm going to go with a shoe that I know is safe, but nonetheless, I want you to walk me through, like, for example, I don't, I don't know if I've found my best like road recovery shoe yet.

1:04:36Dani Moreno: And I used to love Adidas in college. It's all I purchased, Rotterdam and the Bostons and all the shoes. Anyways, tell us your lineup. What are your favorite shoes as a tool for which jobs? I'd be very curious in your lineup because I'll probably be doing some Adidas experiment.

1:04:54Scott H.: Cool. The tools in my lineup, I have the Addi Star. It's a road trainer. And so I use that unlike any easy flat runs. What do you like about it? It's just like the cushion is just right and it's a pretty neutral shoe. So to me, it's just like you're out of the box. Like, I don't know. It can do a little bit of everything. You can even tempo in it if you want.

1:05:21T.J. A.: I'm going to look these up as you're talking about them. Is there another pro runner running in the Adistar?

1:05:29Scott H.: Not that I know of. At least not on the trails. When we were at team camp, everyone was like, what road shoe? And I was like, the AddiStar. And they're like, we have never heard of the AddiStar.

1:05:38T.J. A.: I mean, no disrespect, but it's like the Kohl's version of Adidas running.

1:05:44Dani Moreno: But it's a good shoe. That's what I'm seeing. $140,$130 price point. Okay.

1:05:49Scott H.: I will say everyone I've recommended to loves it.

1:05:53T.J. A.: Well, for years, the response was my favorite, and that is not their high-end shoe.

1:05:58Scott H.: Yeah. um the audios i mean i i admittedly i haven't touched this shoe in over a year but if i was doing a road race audios pro is just an incredible shoe um great carbon shoe and then i uh the boston if i'm doing like a flattish workout is great i love the boston for like for like like stay power type work like uh like tempo like road work or if i'm gonna be on the track and i don't want to be like full carbon boosties you keep giving us reasonable reasonable price point shoes here good i'm glad okay um my favorite adidas so now we'll go to trail um the agravic i think they just came out with the agravic four our nomenclature is a little confusing so it's just agravic um i i'm still working through my agravic threes but this is like my workhorse trail shoe and if i'm gonna do like really technical stuff this is the shoe that i grab it's just like it's it's funny because a lot of people be like oh it's heavy i don't care that it's heavy i love that it's stable and then it's neutral and it's like very reliable i could care less about weight when it comes to just like having confidence on any terrain.

1:07:19Scott H.: And then as far as racing, my favorite shoe is the one that actually just came out. It's the Agravic SL. And it doesn't have carbon. And what I really like about it, because admittedly the ASC, hopefully it doesn't say anything about this, but the two, the foam kind of changed. I really liked the ASC one. I thought it was a great product for like fast trail. Like it was absolutely stellar. The two, they kind of changed the foam and like, I haven't touched that shoe yet. Coming back from injury, the SL, I just feel like my confidence in my downhill running came back so much faster than it did last year.

1:08:06Scott H.: It's quite nimble and you don't get like the same push off in the uphill that you do in the ASU. but I don't mind that like it's well worth like having confidence on the downhills and it's still a fast shoe in my opinion it's labeled as like a super trainer I believe okay so what about the

1:08:26Dani Moreno: pointy end of the like the shoe that I talked about the ultra speed two and some of the other higher price point shoes do you think what's your experience with them they issue two if you're

1:08:35Scott H.: running i would say unless you like are an extremely capable technical savvy runner it's a tough shoe to get used to because of kind of just like the shape of it um and so definitely take some practice with that being said if you're running something fast i the asu is the best shoe like it is so fast it's the asu oh sorry agravic agravic speed oh sorry um and it's great for uphills like the first time you put it on for an uphill workout you're gonna be like holy cow um

1:09:12Dani Moreno: and so i ran in them for the first time this weekend and uh i've experimented with like the hoka rocket x trail tecton x2 and 3 now the speed ultra 2 i've played with the what's the shoe you bought me Bracken the uh Prodigio Pro Prodigio Pro I think the Speed Ultra 2 has the most pop uh close to it between that and the Rocket X trail like it feels supery actually on like flat even concrete I'm like it gives you something and it was it climbed very well I do agree with you I just don't have enough time in it yet to feel confident but I'm seconding what

1:09:48Scott H.: you had said about that yeah it's just like on the downhill because you get so much pop from the rocker and the uphill when you're going downhill you have to get used to the rocker like it like it pushes you a little bit forward and so if you're landing on the toe like the toe to the forefoot of the shoe you'll feel incredibly stable but as soon as you start to kind of lean back and feel fatigued because of the pinch point in the middle you just have you have to get used to it um but yeah if you're in the best shape of your life and you're ready to rocker it's like good to hear yeah the graphic sl you i would i would check that one out i loved it i mean what can't it do i raced in broken arrow i don't it can handle everything like i just i've again like i have experience on technical terrain like for the listeners and so it was really easy for me to like find my footing the middle of the shoe is a bit wider than the agravic speed ultra um yeah it just the only thing it's lacking is the pop on the uphill in the asu i would say that's the only thing it's lacking so if you're like absolutely married to that and like that's gonna break your heart it's not the shoe for you but i mean i just won broken arrow on it i think it's

1:11:07T.J. A.: just fine no lack of confidence through any of the technical rocky parts of broken arrow no and And, like, for me, Broken Arrow only has, like, two really, really technical parts.

1:11:20Scott H.: It's, like, right off the top, there's a little jump you have to do, and I felt fine through that. And when you come out of Shirley Canyon, like, and you cross these wood chips, you, like, hit this single track that is quite, like, bouldering, rocking, you have to jump down. And I felt quite good on that, too.

1:11:38Dani Moreno: Okay. So you don't need a$270 super trail shoe to run fast, Danny?

1:11:44Scott H.: No, it turns out you don't.

1:11:47Dani Moreno: I've been lied to. Bracken, what else do you want to... I got like four minutes and I'm going to have to roll.

1:11:54T.J. A.: So what else are you curious about? I just want to know what's next. Obviously, CCC has been talked about a few times. What's your route there look like?

1:12:03Scott H.: Yeah, building durability is the main thing. Obviously, 40 miles a week worked for Broken Arrow, but we're going to run a little bit more than that. it's not like we're going to jump to 100 miles a week but see if we can get in that 60 to 70 mile range more for like my muscles uh than anything and getting ready for those long downhills um and then i am signed up for a 50k on the east coast the first week of august a ragged 50k and so we'll use that as kind of like a check-in point along the way because it's it seems looking at the times like a pretty long 50k so i'll be out there for a bit

1:12:42Dani Moreno: You ever going to step on the roads ever again?

1:12:45Scott H.: I would love to. Obviously, my career historically was always the winter, fall, I would get ready for something for like January. And obviously being injured the last couple of years, that put a stint in that. But yeah, I think I'd love to fit in a marathon within the next two years and try and do the Olympic trials mark. And it'd be nice to break 70 because I was like 110.40 high, I think, the last half marathon I did. And so that's kind of like a fun goal. I don't need to do it, but if it fit in, it'd be fun.

1:13:22Dani Moreno: I'd say if you run 109 anything, you're probably quite fit to draw that out to whatever you would want that's moving.

1:13:29Scott H.: Yeah.

1:13:29Dani Moreno: What's Olympic qualifier right now? 237, 6, 5?

1:13:33Scott H.: I need to check again. Somewhere in there, right? The half marathon, I think, is 110, which I was like, oh, maybe I could qualify with that if I get a roadblock in.

1:13:44T.J. A.: Okay. Bracken's looking it up. 237 D and 112 and a half.

1:13:50Scott H.: Oh. Those are the B standards. Okay.

1:13:53T.J. A.: In your sleep. Yeah. I want to double check that because that's fast, but that seems a little slow.

1:14:02Scott H.: Yeah. All right. Especially with how fast women have been running that.

1:14:05T.J. A.: That's one. 1-12. Starting January 1st, 2027.

1:14:08Dani Moreno: We got 8th graders running 438 and a mile. What are we even doing anymore? You have a podcast, is that right?

1:14:17Scott H.: Yes, the Subhub Podcast. We focus on all things under the 50K distance.

1:14:23Dani Moreno: The what podcast, sorry?

1:14:24Scott H.: The Subhub Podcast. Subhub. It's for Subultra, but I don't know. We're trying to stick with the times. Some people don't like this up calling it sub ultra so we're just calling it like sub ultra short trail yeah okay is that everywhere like you can find that on all outlets yeah spotify apple uh you can go to our website the sub ultra pot or the sub hub podcast.com uh we have some cool hats on there that we just put up and yeah check it out okay and the obligatory where can people follow along

1:14:59Dani Moreno: Danny?

1:15:00Scott H.: You can check my Instagram. It's dan underscore yell underscore a because my full name is Daniela. And you can pretty much find everything by going into that bio or clicking the link tree. And that'll take you to my sub stack, the podcast partners, et cetera.

1:15:20T.J. A.: All right. I have to ask one more thing before we leave. I'm on your podcast. I'm on your website. At the very bottom, there's a quote from Philemon. You can't kill a fly with a finger. Explain the significance of that, please.

1:15:35Scott H.: So Philemon is one of the best short trail athletes in the world. I mean, he just won the Broken Arrow 23K. And he's part of this team called Team Brum Together that's based out of Kenya. And their belief is that you are better with a team. And so we just loved that quote in that it's more likely it'll kill a fly with a hand than a finger. and just like creating that support system around you enables you to pursue your goals.

1:16:01T.J. A.: I love it. I like that too. All right.

1:16:04Dani Moreno: I think we did the deal today. So thanks for your time. I now understand why you were checking if we could bump this up because you had a big morning of training and probably needed some wiggle room. So thank you for being able to record with us. We appreciate it. And I'm sure we'll, I'll bug you again in a few years to catch up after you're like champion of everything. All right.

1:16:21Scott H.: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me again. Thank you.