Episode 639: Our Favorite Race Prep Workouts

0:08Scott McMillan: Welcome to the Running Public with Bracken Crocker and Kirk DeWint. It's Tuesday folks and you know what that means, Training Tuesday.

0:15Ben Rosario: We are going to take every rabbit hole, follow tangents, use useless metaphors, get lost in the weeds. This is Training Tuesday.

0:33Scott McMillan: When you're ready to take your training or racing to the next level, go to the running public.com. We have both monthly subscription training plans,$19.99 a month. And Bracken and I both offer one-on-one customized coaching. Again, go to the running public.com and check out our offerings.

0:51Ben Rosario: Well, Kirk, you said you got a few messages about me claiming to commit to getting back into fitness and racing again. And I got a few messages, but I got the obligatory message we get anytime we talk about our paces in any other way than being thrilled with them. Okay. Where I made the mistake of saying, I've never run this slow in a 5K. Oh, sure. And set 1835, which for the vast majority of recreational runners would be the fastest they've run. But I'm going to interrupt right away.

1:27Scott McMillan: Almost three minutes slower than your adult best, which is a minute per mile slower.

1:32Ben Rosario: So just for context, continue. And I would hope, and these people, everybody but one message in a tongue in cheek, like you knew it was coming, but I got to say it, it makes me upset to hear you upset about this. And if there's new listeners, we are very aware that anytime you talk numbers, it's going to frustrate people. And that we're aware that we're not as fast as it may sound like we think we are. And we know we're not as slow as we may sometimes talk like we feel we are. We both ran collegiately. We saw what the next level is and we realized we weren't good enough to be females at the next level.

2:12Ben Rosario: We understand the levels of speed. We're not egotistical.

2:15Scott McMillan: I'm close. Not there, but close, but still not there.

2:20Ben Rosario: You're close to when we were in college. Yes, back there.

2:24Scott McMillan: You knocked that off. I mean, I'm far there.

2:28Ben Rosario: There are some girls, high school, cross-country teams I wouldn't make. Varsity teams. Like, I wouldn't be top seven at 1835. There's a lot of them.

2:36Scott McMillan: Not a lot of them, but there may be a select one or two.

2:39Ben Rosario: Anyway, point is, we know our limitations. We're not egotistically tied to our times. We're egotistically tied to our performances. I am. Speak for yourself. I'm fighting tooth and nail over here. For sure. But if you run 14, let's say you run 1459, you're not going to be like, I am the greatest runner. You're going to be like, that's the fastest I've ever run. I love it.

3:00Scott McMillan: And it would take two full minutes faster to even be considered on any sort of stage. And it wouldn't have broke the high school record for a female. That's true. Yeah. She ran. What did she run? Jane broke 15.

3:12Ben Rosario: There you go. Point is, we've seen the upper level. We know it's not us. But we also are objective about our times when we speak. You have to speak about times when you're runners. so we know it's going to upset some people. Anyway, but I just want people to know that I am aware and happy to be in a privileged place where 1835 is out of shape. I get it. I don't mean to make you feel bad, but I think we all should be comfortable talking about our times and paces because that's how you judge progress oftentimes.

3:41Scott McMillan: I wouldn't listen. Let's say I'm listening to an interview with Grant Fisher, who hasn't had a great season recently, comparatively.

3:49Ben Rosario: No. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird, huh? First time he struggled?

3:52Scott McMillan: Yeah, he just hasn't been fighting for the win. He's been trailing behind in the home stretch. Anyways, if Grant Fisher came on a podcast and was like, I ran 1330, I am so slow. This is just so pathetic. What has happened to me? If that affected me, that means I am not cleaning up my side of the street. My self-worth clearly needs some work. If him saying 1330 is slow hurts my feelings as a 15-minute 5K, and be like, do a little mirror-looking, man. Like, we can talk about this without getting scrutinized. Correct.

4:25Ben Rosario: The point is it's all relative. When you run slower than you've run, that's slow.

4:29Scott McMillan: Yeah.

4:30Ben Rosario: And when you run faster than you've run, that's fast. Regardless of how that compares to other people slow and fast, it's all relative to you. So that's our framework that we operate on. Come and clean, Bracken. I'm glad you said it. But I say that because instantly today, before we started recording, you provided me with a great teachable moment about why we do talk times because what did you say about your recovery run today? Right after I said my zone, high zone one, low zone two pace is like 745 to 815 right now. You're like, yeah, I'm about a minute faster. Like 645 in regular shoes, dawdling at like 140 heartbeat or less.

5:10Ben Rosario: And obviously someone's going to be upset by that. But what happened on your recovery run yesterday?

5:15Scott McMillan: Today is horrible. It's horrible. Today? It's horrible. I was telling Bracken, I had a really good session Tuesday, two-mile buy-in quarters, two-mile cash-out, and I swung pretty hard. Heart rate data told me that. And then had a fantastic strength workout yesterday morning, lower body. Was kind of flexing on a younger kid in the gym. He's 18, and he's a fun kid to work out with. And so I had to flex on him a little bit with the lunges. And then, oh, my God, had another strength workout this morning. My run today was like the most mechanically clunky, over a minute per mile slower at the same heart rate.

5:47Scott McMillan: I felt like I'd never run a step before in my life. It's just the disparity between like Tuesday and today's only Thursday is like, if I lived and died by every day, I would have gave up after today. It's just running is like that.

6:01Ben Rosario: So we just said 645 pace. Yeah, it is. And we just said 645 pace is your recovery easy pace. Like I can do this asleep. And what did you average for your recovery run today?

6:12Scott McMillan: 744 and my first mile was 806. Right. Right. So this is why we talk times. I hated it. I was like, this is the dumbest crap. I'm walking home. And I didn't, but I wanted to.

6:23Ben Rosario: And this is why we talk times, because it puts things in perspective. How many times do we hear from someone like, I try to hold nine minute pace on my easy runs, but I could only run 930 today. This is going bad. Like, A, we don't try to hold paces on easy and recovery days. We try to run efforts or heart rates, but you had a one minute swing and that swing puts you what, 452? Is that your 5k pace roughly?

6:47Scott McMillan: My last time I was 455 pace.

6:49Ben Rosario: 455 and you just ran 750 or 745. Let's go three

6:52Scott McMillan: minutes per mile slower.

6:54Ben Rosario: Right. So that is a point of reference now that you don't have to identify with his pace on either one, but a three minute deviation from 5k pace, let alone the percentage that you lost from five minutes to eight minutes compared to someone who'd go from a nine-minute 5K pace to a 10-minute recovery run pace. It is important. This is why we talk numbers, to see what the relationships are between paces and that you can lose a minute per mile and you felt like crap, but you're okay with it. You know you haven't got less fit.

7:26Scott McMillan: Yeah. It's just not all sunshine and rainbows, folks. It's just not. And for every... Gosh, am I so sick of telling people this. not sick, but like I might as well put it on a recording. Like progress is not linear. Yeah. You had a great two weeks of training and we just knocked it out of the park and you just gloss over that. And then you send me a novel text message about how bad your Saturday long run went. Cause you were so tired. Be like, we're not jumping off a bridge here, folks. It's just the pendulum's kicking you in the ass on the way back on the recovery front. Give yourself a few days.

8:00Scott McMillan: It'll be okay. And if you're training hard, which we are, I am, what happens? You have big swings and then you pay the piper on the back end. You want to go run gray zone every day. You're probably never going to have like a terrible, miserable recovery run. But if you're working hard with purpose, yes, you're going to feel like crap two days a week.

8:18Ben Rosario: Yeah. Well, how many times have we got a message from someone that says, I don't know what happened today, but I crushed those intervals. I could have done five more. I was thinking about cranking it down, but I'm like, whatever, I'm feeling good. I'm just going to do it and count it as a win and move forward. How often do we get those messages? Yeah. On occasion, but not nearly as often as the, I feel so bad. Help. But then, but yeah, the help part, I felt so terrible. I'm not sure why, what is going wrong? But like when it was good, it was, I know I haven't suddenly become so much better. It was just a great day and I'm going to roll with it.

8:51Ben Rosario: But when it's bad, it's not, I know I'm not so much worse. I just had a bad day. I'm going to roll with it. Usually the bad is paired with panic. The good is paired with, that's cool. But I know I'm not a minute per mile fast. It was just a good day. We've got to keep both energies equal.

9:06Scott McMillan: I don't know if this is a responsible thing to do, but I sort of want to do it anyways. One second. So - While you pull that up, I just want to hit that point again.

9:17Ben Rosario: If you're willing to be content on a great day that you're just having a good day, you also have to be gracious with yourself and be content on a bad day that you're just having a bad day. It's like your world doesn't crumble because you're a minute per mile slower, just like your world didn't level you up in life because one day you were a minute per mile faster.

9:36Scott McMillan: These are two text messages in a row from the same athlete I work with this week. This is Tuesday last week. I definitely need more workouts like this morning. I think I nailed it, but I was able to get down to some faster paces that I don't normally hit like 630s and a little faster for the 400s. But just being able to sit in those paces and just to feel what they feel like is def what I need. Also realizing that I can hit them without thrashing, like running controlled is pretty cool. Exclamation point. Three days later, that workout just killed me. I struggled so bad. Same athlete. And all that's in between this is my response to her like celebration.

10:14Scott McMillan: She just liked it, moved on with her day, literally from one to the next. And it was like, well, let's talk about this.

10:23Ben Rosario: anyway and this is that's a rational reaction that's how like a human being would react to having you feel this is why there's like the difference between training and programming or coaching and programming that you can't overreact to any one given workout one workout feeling good and feeling like it moved the needle isn't caused to now do a lot more of these and one workout crushing you isn't caused to not do this kind of thing anymore or reassess sometimes you You just have to accept that our bodies have a lot of things going on other than the pace you're running right now. And sometimes you can just right off a workout and move on.

11:01Scott McMillan: Sometimes it's sunny and nice out and sometimes the rain's pouring down and we don't have a whole lot of control over that. We just roll with the day given to us, trying not to overanalyze.

11:11Ben Rosario: But yeah, okay.

11:12Scott McMillan: Segway us is what you're going to do.

11:14Ben Rosario: Yes, but if the world were to be bright and sunny and fast, here's how it should look. We're going to talk workouts today that just move the needle for you fitness-wise or race readiness-wise for a race. Like if you're running a 5K, here is our favorite or best or go-to. If we could just have one workout for a given distance or range of distances, like middle distance, this is what it would be. That's what we're going to talk to.

11:52Scott McMillan: Well, this is my idea, and I wanted to title this episode, One Workout to Rule Them All. And I think how I would like to do this, if it's okay with you, is I would like to do – the idea here, folks, is Bracken gets to pick only one. if you could only do one workout for a given race distance, what would it be? We can't waffle. It's like, this is it. And this is why. And we moved to the next. And I would like to go mile race distance, 5k race distance. Uh, then we can go like maybe 10k half and then marathon. And then maybe we can talk ultra, but I just want to go like walk from shortest to longest.

12:27Scott McMillan: I'm going to say mile. You're going to say, this is the workout and we're going to just banter and then go to the next distance. How do you feel about that?

12:34Ben Rosario: I like it. Okay. So now, I want to lay some groundwork here, like some assumptions we're working under here. We're assuming you are fit, you have a great base of aerobic and anaerobic training, and that you are looking at races coming up. Is that fair to say? It's not a week one back to training type workouts we're giving you.

12:59Scott McMillan: We're in the thick of it. We got an A race of this distance three weeks out, and we've got all the base underneath us we need. we're ready for this session. We're racing in three weeks. This is the session I would pick to move the needle. That's what I'd like to get it at.

13:13Ben Rosario: So it's not necessarily the best bang for your buck workout. Not like if I could only do one my whole year round. This is, we're looking at races. We want to run well. We're in shape. This is a race specific workout.

13:28Scott McMillan: Yep.

13:28Ben Rosario: Perfect.

13:29Scott McMillan: So do you want to kick it off then? I mean, you've had some time, Bracken, I wanted to do this earlier and Bracken said, I want to think about this. So I'm wondering if you thought about this at all.

13:37Ben Rosario: I did think about this because there's a difference between your favorites, your go-tos, and the best workout to get you to the race. And I don't look at this like I'm sharpening for a last chance meet or the Olympic trials or something where you're already so monster fit, now you need to feel good. I'm looking at this like a normal person of, I'm in really good shape, but I need to be ready for this race distance because in the other situation, I think the workouts matter more mentally than physically. You got to back off. You got to get yourself fresh and you got to be confident that you can rip skulls off.

14:18Ben Rosario: But in this situation, you want to be ready for the demands of the distance. So that's a distinction. I would default to the things that work well for me or that I like to do to feel well, but that's not necessarily this. This is prepare for the demands of race day. Can I add one more caveat to this or angle. Listen, we probably have 20 more minutes we can add caveats for. We don't because we have a time window to work with today.

14:42Scott McMillan: What do you think about the approach of like, okay, I'm racing in four weeks and I have to repeat this same workout every week. Like this is the one I get to do, not just like the one, like I trust this workout so much that I can, like if I had to pick one and I had to repeat it for three weeks and race, this is what I would do. Or is that too confining? I think it's a route.

15:03Ben Rosario: I may choose a workout like that for one of these. To me, the more you're going to repeat it, the simpler it needs to be. I agree. Yep. And I don't know if simple... Now, I love simple workouts. All the athletes I work with will know that. But I don't know if simple prepares you for the demands of the race perfectly because Because making it simple means making it very interval-based. And clean, smooth intervals don't always treat you the way a race would. So I think sometimes it's a great thing to do and repeat it leading up to know you're ready. And other times, I don't know if it's going to provide the stimulus needed.

15:44Scott McMillan: Okay. Well, let's do with it what we will then.

15:46Ben Rosario: We'll just let our hearts guide us, right? Yeah. So this is mine and this is yours and neither person's wrong. Maybe. But we will debate it a little bit.

15:53Scott McMillan: All right. Well, we're going to have to be somewhat brief if we're going to do this many race distances. So the mile, tell me, you're up.

16:00Ben Rosario: What's your one? Okay. So I think if I just had to do something for the mile, I believe that for most people who are not super, super seasoned racers, the thing you need to do most is get your legs to knowing what the third lap is going to feel like. Your body and your legs. I'd say we're on the track for this, but the third quarter mile of a mile race. So from 800 meters to 1200 meters, that is really what makes or breaks the mile race. At the elite level, how little that takes out of you is what makes or breaks, whether you can kick at a world-class level on that final two to 300 meters. And at the regular person level, that's the difference between staying on and off pace and having anything left for the end.

16:46Ben Rosario: So I think that my workout is predicated around pre-fatiguing the legs and then trying to crank down the pace. So I like a buy-in opening distance of somewhere from 600 to 1 ,000 meters. And this is where this could be scaled week by week if you want it.

17:06Scott McMillan: You have to pick the distance.

17:06Ben Rosario: You cannot be – it's got to be no gray area. Okay. Then I'm going to say 800 meters at one-mile race pace. then I'm going to give you two to three minutes rest and then we're going to go four by 400 at mile pace so I'm going to pre-fatigue you with that second lap of the 800 first lap running one mile at one mile race pace is not easy but it's not a chore but getting done with that second one tells you exactly what this is going to do to you staring down I still have more to do and then I'm going to give you a little chance to recover and now we got to hit mile pace or better for four by 400 after that.

17:44Ben Rosario: That would be my one workout. So I'm going to take two to three minutes after the 800. I'm going to give you a decent amount of rest, but it's not going to make you fresh. And then you're going to run four by 400 with 60 to 90 seconds rest at race pace or faster. I'm going to try to make them descending, make them each one a little bit quicker than the last. and I'd be open for 2x400, 2x200 as well. But that is the structure of the workout. If I was going to progress it, I would do 600-meter buy-in and then 4x4 and then 800-meter buy-in and then 4x4 and then 1 ,000-meter buy-in and then 400, 400, 200, 200 as it got closer to the race day.

18:24Ben Rosario: But get pre-fatigued, then sit in race pace, and then crank it down. That's my one workout to know that I'm ready.

18:32Scott McMillan: Final answer, 800-meter buy-in, 3 minutes rest, four by 400 meters on 60 to 90 seconds.

18:38Ben Rosario: Correct.

18:39Scott McMillan: So, uh, all right. I like it. And it's only a mile and a half of work by the way. Yes. But we're racing a mile.

18:45Ben Rosario: This is feeling the mile distance and the strain of it and then trying to get faster.

18:51Scott McMillan: So this is so funny because I waffled over two sessions, two sessions. This is, and I'm not going with the first one, which was three by three by 400 meters. I'm not going with that one. It's what I thought you would take. No, But I think I know why. You need to sit in it a little longer. It would need to be coupled with something else if that were to be, you know, the second workout of the week, and we don't have that option. So I'm going 800-meter buy-in.

19:20Ben Rosario: I swear we did not share notes prior to this.

19:24Scott McMillan: I'm going 4x400 meters, but I'm making you cash out at 800 meters again.

19:29Ben Rosario: Another 8 at what? Mile pace. so so i would add the cash out uh so i would go 800 at goal mile pace exactly as you said i would then take three minutes but i would do four by a quarter and i would do them faster than

19:48Scott McMillan: goal mile pace with about 90 seconds rest i'd be faster i'd be looking to run faster which they're going to be painful and then i'm looking to cash out again even if i die home because that's what that last, that middle four, that eight to 1200 really feels like. So I would just layer in that cash out. That's it.

20:04Ben Rosario: You say that's it, but I never in my life would have been able to cash out after all that work. That's okay.

20:12Scott McMillan: I just want you to suffer and sit in it and lock up and be familiar with it. And that will, that will happen there. So yeah, so I'm putting a cash out on there. That's it. Two miles worth of work. Okay. That's it. I mean, you can disagree with me.

20:23Ben Rosario: That's fine, but that's what i would do no it you know the only my only takeaway from that is i would have to do that 10 days or more away from race day for sure i agree with you okay you'd almost you you

20:35Scott McMillan: would have mine i could do monday before a saturday race you would have to feel like you're racing that cash out 800 like you to get anywhere close like it would be a tasting pennies uh zone five almost seeing max heart rate to hit it that's what i want because that's what the mile requires and you have to sit in that for like the back half of a mile for real. And so that's, I'm sticking to it. Okay.

20:58Ben Rosario: It reminds me of something we would have done in college in the way we would have probably done it is we would have been in our racing flats for the 800 and the four by fours. And then we would have rested a bit spiked up and run the final 800 meters.

21:12Scott McMillan: Like we were lining up for a race. And we did a version of this in college at least once that I remember. And we did put spikes on for that final one. Exactly what you're saying. Yeah.

21:19Ben Rosario: Okay. Okay. Okay. I like that. I waffle between this and one other workout. And the other workout is the most simple thing you could ever do. You only get one, but I guess I did say my other one. I know, but you said what your others, mine was going to be a 1200 meter at mile pace, just flat out mile pace or faster for 1200 and just rip it and feel the full consequence of your actions. And then like finish with some 200s or something. I maybe I wouldn't even care on this one day. You're just going to run 1200 meters at mile pace or faster. And then nothing will surprise you on race day. Sure. You could rest.

21:57Ben Rosario: I would rest like 10 minutes before doing the 200. So you're racing at 1200 meters basically. Yeah. Like a race without kicking, like really either time trial a thousand or run 1200 at or faster than goal mile pace. That'd be painful. And we just saw Josh Kerr do this. He did a 1 ,200, right?

22:17Scott McMillan: I think he did a 1 ,200 and he ran something obscene like 2 ,44 was it? He ran under world record pace in the time trial. I know that.

22:27Ben Rosario: I'm going to look this up right now. Josh Kerr, he did a 1 ,200. He ran 2 ,42, which is the fastest 1 ,200 ever.

22:37Scott McMillan: Is that 3 ,38 mile pace? I can't do that right now.

22:42Ben Rosario: but here's the grossest part of this, Kirk. He did it in Albuquerque, which is 5 ,000 feet of break. He's lighter up there. And when he posted this, everyone's like, I did... Not everyone, but a lot of people are like, I didn't really think he had a chance until I saw this workout. When people ask, what is the best indicator workout? This is the answer. A time trial of 60 % to 80 % distance is the only indicator workout that tells you anything. And he did it and he did it at altitude. So that's the kind of thing I waffled between. Would I just go let somebody run slightly faster than race pace for 1 ,000 to 1 ,200 meters and call it?

23:19Ben Rosario: Great. Now you know exactly what you can do. Okay. I like the approach. Because he left that knowing I have a real chance to break this record.

23:27Scott McMillan: Yeah. Now I can come through 1 ,200 in 246 instead of 242, maybe be coasting a little and have the, you know, left in me for the last quarter.

23:41Ben Rosario: And I don't think he kicked in that. And I think Elgar Rouge, who had the record he was trying to beat, came through in 244. So he came through faster than he needed to go, and he knew what it felt like. So, yeah, just in case people said, I can't pick, you gave one other thing you thought about, I gave one other thing I thought about. All right, 5K. I think my answer is going to surprise you.

24:02Scott McMillan: I'm not saying this is the, like, if you're going to couple a polarized training plan and where's your threshold work getting this week and where is this? This is all out of the equation. This is the best bang for your buck if all the uprests are easy runs throughout the week or something. I'm actually staying very similar. You're going to make them buy in with 3K or some crap.

24:26Ben Rosario: You stay out of my head. You want to go first this time?

24:29Scott McMillan: You're going to make them run quarters again. No. Well, I don't mean to take... That's not what I'm picking this time.

24:38Ben Rosario: Yeah. But no, same exact reason why. I want you to feel the full weight and consequence of what you're about to do. Two miles at goal or slightly slower than 5K pace. And then we're going to go 1 ,842 after that at 5K pace. And then the 4.2, you get to rip. What kind of rest? So two mile at 5K pace. I'm going to again give two to three minute rest probably closer to three for this one and then thousand at 5k pace two minute rest 800 at 5k pace two minute rest and then 400 200 at mile pace with 60 to 90 seconds rest so balanced people don't realize how much that two mile buy-in is

25:21Scott McMillan: going to hurt and everything else is going to feel like work after that if you're truly running two miles at goal 5k pace you all know what two miles feels like in a 5k don't you if you're racing it well, awful. So this is, this is a big buy-in. This is a, put your big girl pants on and run hard. This isn't like a thresholdy two mile. This is a, I'm in zone five, 800 meters in, and now I'm sitting in it.

25:44Ben Rosario: Yeah. And I'm going to go a little slower than 5k pace for the full two miles for everyone. Cause you're alone. But if I wanted to run at 5k, I'd probably lower it to a mile and a half buy-in. You'll know by a mile and a half what you need to know. So I'd either go five seconds per mile slower for two full miles, or I'd just peg it right from the start and go a mile and a half. But then 1 ,000, 842 after.

26:05Scott McMillan: That's a workout I would dread just for the buy-in alone.

26:08Ben Rosario: Yeah, the 1 ,000 would almost be a relief afterwards.

26:11Scott McMillan: How much rest did you say between the 1 ,000, 842s? 3, 2, 2, 1. And you're just doing 1 ,200, 1 ,400?

26:19Ben Rosario: Yeah. Yes.

26:21Scott McMillan: So how much work is that? That's roughly three and a half miles of work, call it.

26:25Ben Rosario: A little more, three and three quarter, I think.

26:29Scott McMillan: I mean, that session will get you there for sure.

26:32Ben Rosario: But I mean, my trend is hitting you over the face with a hammer type of obvious. It's sit in race pace long enough to know exactly that it's not going to be like this fairytale dream on race day. You're going to have to earn this. And it might scare you straight about what pace you start out at on race day.

26:50Scott McMillan: I like it. I like it a lot. I'm going to do something different because I've felt it. I know it's gotten me in the best race shape in the 5K. And it's going to be 12 by 400 meters with 100 meter float recovery. Float slash jog, but the float would be like recovery run pacing, not like shuffle pacing.

27:12Ben Rosario: It has to be honest.

27:13Scott McMillan: You have to honestly be running. So when I ran two summers ago, I ran 1517 on the track. And this was my pinnacle session two weeks out. And even with the jog recoveries, I ran 1558 in the 5K in the workout or 1559, including the 100 meter float recoveries. I was running my 400s just a hair faster than 5K pace and then floating at recovery. So like I was going 440 pace, seven minute pace. But the seven minute pace, your rest is only 25 seconds, not even.

27:48Ben Rosario: It takes you 10 meters minimum to drop from 440 down to 7-minute pace. Minimum 10 meters, probably more like 20. And then you're ramping up slightly at the end to get back to it.

28:00Scott McMillan: And I had to basically race the last two to three quarters in that. Like I was living in the 180s, right? For me, that's race effort. But man, did I feel what I had to feel. And so I'm going, and it was four total miles, by the way. That ended up being four miles of work. The track read four miles when it was all said and done. three working miles and almost, I guess it was like 3.75 or something total miles. But that, that a hundred meters, you cannot allow yourself to back off like to true shuffle. It's like, I'm going between four 40 and seven, four 40 and seven. I think my recoveries were like 22 to 27 seconds maybe, but the integrity of them mattered.

28:37Scott McMillan: And that felt what you're talking about. You feel in that two mile buy-in. I felt the last mile of that session, everything in me wanted to slow down in those hundreds and you just can't let yourself. And so that one just felt so race specific for me. So I'm going 12 by 400 meters with 100 meter pseudo float recovery. I really liked that.

28:57Ben Rosario: And I think that if my last two big sessions were these two, I wouldn't have any doubts in the world about what I was about to go out and do. They both suck. I think this would cover both ends and work the same thing.

29:11Scott McMillan: Both very painful sessions.

29:12Ben Rosario: And they're both requiring you to stay on it mentally. You can never check out. Five by mile, three by mile, four, somewhere in that three to five by mile at 5K pace with whatever you want to give, one 30, two minute recovery, like the classic 5K thing. You can compartmentalize that work. It's a bad workout. I've done that workout and been as miserable as I've needed to be. But you can compartmentalize it and restart a new each rep. These workouts don't allow you to compartmentalize it super well. You have to sit in it enough. With yours, you can't let off ever. And with mine, you have to suck it up for a full two miles before you get to start compartmentalizing a little bit.

29:53Ben Rosario: But that's how the 5K race is. Once you get to a mile to go, you kind of start compartmentalizing. All right, I'm going to lean into almost like a different stride. I'm going to buy myself time at this pace with one before I know I have to start closing it down and moving into my aggressive kicking stride. And I can compartmentalize the last mile of a 5K, really the last 1 ,200 if I have to. But it's really hard to do that for the first two and a quarter.

30:19Scott McMillan: Yeah. Because you're supposed to just be a metronome half asleep.

30:24Ben Rosario: But that option goes out the window like 1 ,200 meters in or a mile in.

30:27Scott McMillan: I think that's the big thing about the mile and the 5K is you need to be able to feel it first to nail the race. You need to feel it in training to know what you're expecting. I think you can race a half marathon without feeling what those last four miles are going to feel like. You can race a marathon without feeling those last six miles because you really shouldn't duplicate that in training. But the mile and the 5k, you're like, I'm hurting so bad. I'm two miles into the 5k. I have a mile to go. I can't possibly sustain this. And you back off because you don't trust yourself. Right. And these workouts teach you to trust yourself.

31:00Scott McMillan: That's what it is.

31:01Ben Rosario: Yeah. Or humble you and say,

31:03Scott McMillan: Hey, okay, you gotta, you gotta be smart early because. Yeah. you blew up.

31:08Ben Rosario: Because one of two, I mean, two things are going to happen. One, you're going to reassess your pace. Even if you choose not to change it, you're going to think real long and hard about, is this the right pace to go out at? And two, systemically, your body reacts very quickly to these really, really intense effort styles. Like when you flood yourself with lactate, your body handles it much better the next time you do it, assuming recovery. Like running a 1200 meter time trial means you will come through 1200 meters handling it better even if it's just from a perception standpoint yeah so these workouts not only do help you physically but they will they make that type of discomfort more tolerable the next time you experience it because you're

31:53Scott McMillan: not as panicky the next time right or it's like if all the flashing red warning lights are going off uh but i feel like those are that's when you have to like trust in the 5k to be like oh my god i I can't sit here any longer, but you can. And if you can get to two and a half miles and you're still holding pace, suddenly the finish line becomes close enough where now you can, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and suck it up. But like that, like one and a half to two and a half, you have to feel that in training first. I just think.

32:22Ben Rosario: Yeah, I agree.

32:23Scott McMillan: So let's do a really quick, the 10 K let's just, why don't we? Cause I think we have the time. So what do you think here? I struggled over this more than any other workout.

32:35Ben Rosario: Me too. And what I decided is I'm going to run the 5K workout. Okay. I think that once you move up to the 10K, you're going to, by nature, do more staying power workouts and more volume. You're just going to do more of all the things where 5K and below, you might be tempted to just do different types of training. And the 10K is so close to threshold pace for most people anyway that your regular workouts, you can race off of. The deviation from 10K race pace to your true lactate threshold for most people is very small unless you are elite or other end of the pool slower than typical. But either way, the way to be ready for it and make that feel even easier is to go over speed for this distance.

33:24Ben Rosario: And so that's what I'm going to do. I'm actually going to run a 5K sharpening workout for this. Now, I think you could choose any 5K sharpening workout. This would be a great time, I think, to run five by mile at 5K pace. And maybe that's the one I would choose.

33:38Scott McMillan: So that's the one I waffled. That was my second choice.

33:41Ben Rosario: Okay, so I'm going to stick with that.

33:42Scott McMillan: That was my second choice. It's not what I picked, but it's straight up. It would have been – I waffled between four and six by a mile, but it would have been structured mile repeats. But it's not. Yes.

33:52Ben Rosario: But I'm going to do it 5K pace, not 10K. 10 very intense so 10k pace feels like you can ease into it i want it to feel relaxed for as long as possible and then all your threshold training and your hill work and your tempos they're going to carry you through this workout but the 5k stride turns your gut up in a way that threshold work does not and so that's what i want out of this last bit i don't think it takes much for a non-elite i don't think it takes much to sharpen for a 10k so what's the exact workout Let's go five by mile at 5K with...

34:26Scott McMillan: That's a painful pace to do for five by a mile.

34:29Ben Rosario: Yeah, I might even go four. Let's say four by a mile at 5K with two minutes rest.

34:34Scott McMillan: Yeah, you'll be reaching on the end of rep three and rep four will feel almost like a race probably.

34:39Ben Rosario: Yeah. I'd even be okay with three minutes rest because I want these to be no blurred lines. I don't want to fade to 10K pace at the end of this. I want to stay faster than that. So two to three minutes rest depending on your fitness level. and I might even extend from two to three as the workout goes on four by mile, lock it in. Such a good workout. And you could probably race a five K off of that quite well too.

35:01Scott McMillan: Yeah, you could build race a half marathon.

35:04Ben Rosario: if you added a couple of reps, but anyways,

35:07Scott McMillan: so I am doing, um, there's two, I'm working with two mile repeats and four hundreds, just so you know, that is, and I'm, I'm waffling over the format. So it's either the two mile buy-in and cash out with eight by a quarter in the middle at six miles of work, which is what I did Tuesday. And I got done with that session. I thought that I, this will make me run a good 10 K or I'm waffling two by two miles and then 400 meter finishers. But if I did it that way, it would only be four by 400, not eight. Um, and those two mile repeats are going to be done at, or a slight faster than 10 K pay. So quite, quite on it.

35:44Ben Rosario: Okay. So these aren't threshold. I mean, they might be depending on your race pace, but these are intended to be race pace or faster.

35:51Scott McMillan: These are intended to be 10 K race pace, two miles, slightly faster. Cause I think you can get away with it. 10 seconds of five to 10 seconds a mile. And then your goal is to open it up 5 K pace or faster on the 400s just to stay efficient. So let me lock in, let me lock in two by two miles, four by 400 meters in the middle of the two by two miles. No, that's what I'm not sure. I think I'm going to throw them at the end. Oh, at the end. I think so. Let's just to change it up. I already did a buy and cash out for the mile. I did both for 5k. I think either way works.

36:22Ben Rosario: We'll put it that way. The two by two mile back to back takes care of what I had been looking for in workouts, which is feel what's really going to be happening on race day. Putting the 400s in the middle takes care of some incorrect pacing or some over fatigue hits you in the middle of the race and you've got to clean it up and get it back together for the final two miles of the race. they're both very good workouts it kind of comes down to which thing do you need more as an athlete

36:51Scott McMillan: well it's interesting so i bought in i wasn't feeling particularly great to start the session tuesday and i'll use pacing for reference but again just because so i bought in at 10 26 saying i want to run between 10 20 and 10 30 and 10 26 i had to fight for it a little bit i ran my quarters in 68, 69. And then when I went back to run 1020 to 1030 pace on the cash out, I looked at my watch after 400 meters and I was at 450 pace. And then I looked at 800, I'm at 455 pace. I'm like, slow down. It opened me up. And that cash out, I worked very hard, but the discrepancy in pacing made that cash out feel...

37:31Scott McMillan: I've still worked very hard, but that pace suddenly was available to me much easier initially. It like opened me up. The quarters did. And I don't know if that would actually be helpful or hurtful because there's no chance to do that on race day in a 10K. And I cashed out in 10, 14. I worked a little harder in it to do it, but I actually was able to get faster. I don't know if I could have gotten faster if the two miles were back to back. I almost, do you get what I'm saying? I do. I almost wonder if it would have, wouldn't have worked in my favor. So I think I ran a little quicker because of this, but I don't know if it It was his 10K specific.

38:03Ben Rosario: So you got to pick one.

38:04Scott McMillan: What's it going to be? I'm going two by two miles, four by 400 meters. I'm going to stick with that one.

38:08Ben Rosario: Okay.

38:08Scott McMillan: Dull the legs real good before you get to turn them over.

38:11Ben Rosario: All right. Half marathon. So the thing I was thinking about for maybe 10K, but ultimately decided 5K works just better is what I'm choosing for half marathon. Two mile buy-in. I don't know if I'm doing eight to 12 by 400 in the middle and then two mile buy-out. 8 to 12 depending on how fit the athlete is. But the key here is going to be if we are doing it flat, those 400s flat, I'm going to work them more like, so I'm going to buy in at 10K pace and then run the flat 400s at 5K pace or faster, 8 to 12 of those, and then buy back out at 10K pace.

38:54Scott McMillan: So you're doing two mile buying and cash out?

38:56Ben Rosario: Yes. I'm doing your workout. I want it for a half marathon, but I'm running eight to 12 by 400 in the middle of it. And I'm running at a 5k pace if we're doing flat. If I'm prepping for a hilly race, I'm doing 400 meter hill reps and I'm doing them at 10k pace.

39:12Scott McMillan: You'd have to have a long hill.

39:14Ben Rosario: Yeah. And it could be four up. I mean, two up, two down. I don't really care. But either way, I'm going in and out at 10k pace and then I'm running 400s at slightly faster because in that half marathon, just the monotonous stride sometimes get your hammy insertion points going or your quads beat a little bit. And sometimes you go out a little faster because you're in a group or sometimes the middle, the hills just kind of, you get to this point where your stride stops being easy and you have to overwork just to keep your stride going. And sometimes it's the hills. You find yourself grinding up a hill like, this is harder than I thought.

39:51Ben Rosario: So I want something in the middle where I have to reach in my stride a little bit and then get back down and run a good clean stride at the end of that. So two mile buy-in, two mile buy-out, eight to 12 by 400 in the middle. I'm going to give shorter rest here. I'm going to go two minutes on either side and I'm going to go 60 seconds in between in the inside.

40:10Scott McMillan: Yeah. Feeling what I felt Tuesday, it would have been a very effective half marathon workout for sure. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I like that one. So you're going two minutes after the two mile and before your buyout or cash out two mile in 60 seconds between quarters.

40:25Ben Rosario: Yeah.

40:26Scott McMillan: It's funny how we're, I mean, you can tell where we gravitate towards with these buy

40:29Ben Rosario: and cash out sessions. And both of these in the mile, I was talking at mile pace, maybe getting a little faster in the second half if you can, but in these, all of it's done faster than 10K pace for the 10K for the most part. And all of it's done faster than half marathon pace for the half marathon. Yeah. Because half marathon pace itself is not a great stimulus. compared to other paces.

40:55Scott McMillan: Even for elites, it's sub-threshold. Yeah, when you get to half marathon and marathons, you rarely run quality sessions at intended race pace.

41:06Ben Rosario: Yeah.

41:06Scott McMillan: I'm waffling over two again, and these both include a tempo and mile repeats.

41:12Ben Rosario: It's just the setup. It's the setup.

41:15Scott McMillan: So I'm waffling over two by one mile, three miles, two by one mile, or I'm waffling over a four mile buy-in three by a mile. I like six to seven miles worth of work. Seven miles is ideal in my opinion for the half. So I have to decide if I want it.

41:30Ben Rosario: I would have hit seven if you did the full 12 reps, the four. Hundreds.

41:34Scott McMillan: So I am going to say, I'm going two by a mile on two minutes rest, three mile tempo at half marathon pace, two by a mile again, faster. Okay. So faster at half pace or just slightly faster and then two by a mile. That's what I'm sticking with.

41:53Ben Rosario: So you flip my workout. You're doing your faster buy-in, buy-out, but with longer distance. And then you're sitting in it in the middle. Miles at 10K plus pace and then sitting it in the middle and then cash out again faster.

42:05Scott McMillan: Yeah, that's what I'm going with.

42:06Ben Rosario: I like it. I think for a flat race, I might even like yours better.

42:10Scott McMillan: Well, what's the point of running a hilly half marathon? You're not going to PR. That's for sure.

42:17Ben Rosario: Hilly half marathons are for people who don't travel to races. Your local race is hilly and that's the race you're running. So true.

42:24Scott McMillan: Yeah, I'm going to stick with that one. It's something I might actually play with here as I'm just kind of like playing with my training. That style, a mile or two buy-in, a mini tempo. I may actually play with it soon. But yep, I'm going to stick with that.

42:37Ben Rosario: I like it. Marathon. This is a workout that I would give you a different answer every single year for the past 20 years. I think that the marathon, the understanding of how to train forward has changed a lot. And also my understanding that every single person reacts to different things for the marathon and does well off different things. But I'm actually taking a workout that I use together with Dusty leading up to his first sub three. And this is the uphill and downhill. Excuse me one second. Uphill and downhill 5K repeats. So these are not hills in the sense of hill repeats that we think about.

43:15Ben Rosario: This is finding a road or a bike path or something that has a slight grade to it. And so he did this on this greenway that he could get a full 5K with like 1 % to 3 % grade. For the most part, it was like that. And so we go uphill 5K, rest, downhill 5K, rest, uphill 5K. And the next time we did it, we did the reverse. We did down, up, down. And if you wanted more volume and you were real fit, then you would do four by 5K up, down, up, down, or down, up, down, up, depending on what the demands of your race are going to be. But what it really does is it shows you two things it does. One, it shows you the cost of what little hills do to your quads at pace.

44:03Ben Rosario: Like a 3 % downhill beats up your quads significantly more than flat does. even though it doesn't feel a lot different as you're running it. And then it also just teaches you to drive power smoothly uphill when you're tired, which you're going to have to do in a marathon. You have to be able to stay relatively close to your marathon pace uphill without spiking your heart rate so that you don't get too far off pace. So it builds durability. It works on faster than marathon pace, but it also just teaches you how to efficiently and calmly do the things you're going to have to do.

44:38Scott McMillan: Well, I really like that. And marathon running is not fast running. And if you ever run one, you understand sitting in it is like the ultimate priority, like just staying asleep while moving relatively well. And so big long intervals are like the staple. translate this like i'm sure half the people listening are more like i can't think of one place near me that has a long steady grade so take away like i either have rolling hills that goes both up and down throughout or i have pancake flat i can't get this what would you

45:12Ben Rosario: what would you change about the session if that were the then i mean i would if this is a staple of my marathon block i am willing to dedicate an entire half day to this workout if needed So i'm driving to find the location and if I can't find the perfect location Let's say you're in florida. You're not going to find this perfect location What i'm doing is i'm driving to find the correct bridge Where I can do my uphill or downhill 5k over back and forth on the bridge And then turn the opposite direction and run flat for my next one So i'm doing one hilly and one flat. I think that will accomplish the same goal and most people will be able to find at least a gradual hill that's at least a quarter mile long.

45:56Ben Rosario: And if you have to go up and down that for 5K, you do that. But the key here is you don't choose a hill that scares you. You choose a hill that you think, I could probably still run pretty quick up that because you want it to sneak up on you. You want good, clean running, but you want to beat your legs up because you're not trying to run differently. You're trying to just run a little quick down the hill. So that's how I would do it. I would take the time to find the right place. And if you really can't, then this is going to be a treadmill workout. One of them at 3 % to 4 % uphill and the other one flat, or you jack up the back of your treadmill with just a little wood shim that gives you a slight downhill.

46:30Ben Rosario: One more question. Oh, what's the rest? I'm going to give a full three minutes between all of this.

46:35Scott McMillan: Okay.

46:36Ben Rosario: You can get a weigh-on too, but I don't think – like we're not trying to kill ourselves cardiovascularly. I'd give it a full three-minute. It's all going to be faster than marathon.

46:44Scott McMillan: Somewhere between half and full pace probably. Yep.

46:47Ben Rosario: Yeah. Yeah. Basically, you run the first one controlled and you try to equal or exceed the rest of the way out.

46:56Scott McMillan: Beautiful. Again, I'm waffling over two and they both entail the exact same components. It's just the order of the components.

47:02Ben Rosario: Before you go, I just want to reiterate that if this is a big, long race you're prepping for, your big, long sessions have to somewhat mirror your course. You've got to be willing to travel for that. If you're going to pay for a big marathon, you're paying$200,$300 minimum. And you're going to have, you might have to get a hotel. If you're going to do all those, you need to get to the right terrain for these things, especially if you're only doing two or three total of these workouts. At least one, if not two, has to be on the correct thing. So I'm a proponent of make it a training day and just plan around it.

47:35Ben Rosario: No excuses. Find the terrain. Find the terrain.

47:39Scott McMillan: So I'm waffling over a tempo plus mile repeats here. I mean, that's what it's going to be. It's in what order. I've done it, the fatigued mile repeats, right, which you see the Utah boys doing. They'll go run a five to eight mile tempo and then they'll finish with three by a mile. It's a have your cake and eat it too. My gut tells me the other way might be better for me personally as an athlete, create fatigue and then sit in it versus like sit in it and then run fast on fatigue. but either way this is basically a an eight mile tempo it's going to be 11 miles of work and three mile repeats and i could take or leave which order it happens in so i am going to say i'm going to say the tempo first plus the mile repeats to finish even though i think i would enjoy it more if it was the other way i'm going to eight mile tempo and i am going to tempo if i'm tempoing first my mission is slightly faster than marathon pace, 10 seconds a mile.

48:41Scott McMillan: And then I'm looking to run pretty hard on the mile repeats. If I were to inverse the session three by a mile tempo, I would be looking to run quite quick for the miles, like 5K, maybe 10K. And then I'd look to probably run marathon pace for the tempo after overspeed training. It would be one of those two. If I had my cake and eat it too, I'd like to go back and forth. One week would be option A, one week would be option B. Which way would you prefer?

49:06Ben Rosario: Well, I'll tell you that the workout I would have chosen if it weren't for a three to four by five K on Hills was four to five miles at marathon pace, three to five miles at faster than 10 K and then four to five miles at a big 13 to 15 mile session with anywhere from eight to 10 at marathon and then three to five at faster than 10 K. I think that's a great workout. I would thrive in that session. And for me, I would need to tempo on the back end because I think what everyone needs to realize is what happens when it goes south in the middle and running three to five by mile faster than 10K is going to make the final four to five mile buyout at marathon pace feel pretty real.

49:51Ben Rosario: You got to recruit and run clean when you've done already roughly nine to 10 miles of work. Like that's, that's real. So that's what I would, that was my other workout. And again, if I'm prepping for a marathon, those are the two workouts I'm switching between for the last six weeks.

50:09Scott McMillan: My up and downhills and this one. Grindy stuff. I haven't vetted the three miles at the front end. And then the eight-mile tempo, I've only vetted the tempo followed by miles. So in good faith, I can't say do the miles first because I've never felt it. But in theory, that would almost make the back end of your tempo more effective sitting in it, as you said, like the marathon may feel on race day. But I can't do it because I haven't done it. So I'm going to have to go with you. I'm going to do the tempo first. I'm going to give you a, and you're only getting three minutes after the tempo, by the way.

50:37Scott McMillan: So you're going to do your tempo three minutes, but then I'm giving you three minutes between the mile repeats. I want you to run hard.

50:42Ben Rosario: Yeah.

50:43Scott McMillan: Okay. Ultra. We have, we're going trail ultra. We have four minutes and we got to be done. So trail ultra 50 K plus on terrain. What are you doing?

50:53Ben Rosario: I think the only answer to cover all races is a big old split tempo. 20 to 30 minutes flat and fast-ish tempo followed by 20 to 30 minutes of hill work followed by 20 to 30 flat again or inverse that 20 to 30 minutes of hill followed by 20 to 30 minutes flat followed by 20 to 30 minutes of hill again. I think the split tempo for a non-big mountain or a non-rail trail that's the one workout for me that covers everything. and I'm definitely cheating on this one. I'm running both versions alternating weeks. You got to be good at running flat and quick-ish when you're beat up from hills and you got to be good at running hills and driving power when you've already been working for a while.

51:44Ben Rosario: So version A and version B, I'm choosing both and I'm alternating A and B weeks most likely with real long runs in between. But split tempo is if I only get one. It's a lot of work. 60 minutes of work? 60 to 90 minutes of work. Yeah. Depending on what I'm prepping for. And again, this is for anything other than pancake flat or big, big, big vert. If it's big, big, big vert, I'm just running big, big, big vert. That's my one specific workout.

52:14Scott McMillan: You're not going to see this one coming.

52:17Ben Rosario: Are you going to go back and do your, I'm going to beat myself up on the roads to prepare for trail work?

52:22Scott McMillan: So if I had my cake and eat it too, like you said, you're going to go back and forth. I'm doing eight to 10 by a mile on one minute rest. And I'm doing every other week on the terrain I'm racing on and every other week on flat ground. And I'm trusting I'm coupling this with long runs on the terrain. So I'm going eight to 10, preferably 10 by one mile on one minute rest. You're probably running half marathon pace, maybe a little quicker for them on flat. But I'm just going like I want to be running notable deviations faster than ultra pace. And I want to do it sometimes on terrain. So I don't care how long that mile takes you if there's a big climb in it or if there's whatever.

52:55Scott McMillan: but I'm going eight to 10 by a mile on one minute rest. I felt that my way through that workout, I did 10 by a mile on my ultra lead in on a minute rest. It felt so astronomically productive and I thought the results were pretty good from it as well. And so 10 by a mile, one minute rest.

53:11Ben Rosario: I love it.

53:12Scott McMillan: I do.

53:14Ben Rosario: With that last statement you made when you're describing it of every other week, I'm doing 10 by a mile on terrain. Love it.

53:21Scott McMillan: And coupling that with absolutely the long run happening on race terrain that has a must. If that's not in there, then your version is the only option. So that would be it. Either way, I'm ripping the descents at least half the time. Yeah. Yours is a grind. Actually, they're both a grind. When you do like mile repeats with only a minute rest, like the rest goes by, you like blink and you like have to run again. You just feel like you're never resting.

53:47Ben Rosario: Yeah. I did a version of that at Pike's Peak one day with Mile Hills.

53:54Scott McMillan: mile up 60 seconds mile down 60 seconds and that 60 seconds disappears yeah that's like doing like uh like 20 by 400 with 30 seconds rest even if they're supposed to be like at 10k pace it's like the rest is dude you don't even know where it went okay we did it we did it kirk do you think anybody's zero seconds to spare we got we we got to slide out of here folks i think people are

54:19Ben Rosario: going to pin this because they're always asking about, I have a 5K or a 10K coming up. What should I run? Here you go.

54:25Scott McMillan: Yeah. You could just alternate with like, uh, pick Bracken's workout one week, pick my workout the next week, go back and forth. You have yourself a stew and then tell us about your PRs. That'd be sweet.

54:34Ben Rosario: Beautiful. Cut it.

54:35Scott McMillan: Cut it.

54:38Ben Rosario: If anything resonated with you on today's episode, and you're curious about taking your training to the next level, check out the running public.com where we have a training plan to fit your needs.

54:49Thank you.