Training Tuesday: A Line in the Sand

0:09Brakken Kraker: Welcome to the Running Public with Brakken Kraker and Kirk DeWint. It's Tuesday, folks, and you know what that means. Training Tuesday.

0:15Scott D. Johnston: We are going to take every rabbit hole, follow tangents, use useless metaphors, get lost in the weeds. This is Training Tuesday.

0:33Brakken Kraker: When you're ready to take your training or racing to the next level, go to the running public.com. We have both monthly subscription training plans,$19.99 a month. And Bracken and I both offer one-on-one customized coaching. Again, go to the running public.com and check out our offerings. Bracken, you didn't get poop in your eye, did you?

0:54Scott D. Johnston: I did not get poop in my eye. All right.

0:57Brakken Kraker: Bracken showed up to the recording. You sounded just a little stuffy, but not too bad. Maybe a little red-eyed, but not too bad. And I was like, are you still? And I said, yeah, that's pretty bad. So I was like, Bracken, are you getting to the bunnies again? You've been rubbing your face in the bunnies. And Bracken says, oh, no, you won't even guess how I got here.

1:16Scott D. Johnston: Yeah, because you can't. Because this now moves into top two most ridiculous ways I've ever hurt myself. So this is an injury.

1:26Brakken Kraker: Technically. So you sprayed something in your own eyes on accident? Yes and no. It's got to be along those lines. Should I keep guessing or do you just want to tell? I'll tell you.

1:36Scott D. Johnston: So what is, since we've been together, what's the most foolish way I've ever been hurt or injured? Foolish?

1:44Brakken Kraker: Yeah, like ridiculous. Has there been anything ridiculous, a curb ankle roll?

1:50Scott D. Johnston: In my opinion, yes.

1:52Brakken Kraker: Refresh me.

1:53Scott D. Johnston: uh i strained my mcl sleep twitching oh that's right you did a sleep twitch that's and apparently that's an awkward position yeah which we had no idea it's one of the like sometimes in the middle of the night you wake up with something hurting you're like i'm pretty sure this will just be gone in the morning that was one where the i i snapped myself awake going that's not good i just hurt myself and no one's gonna believe i've done that with my

2:17Brakken Kraker: have you i'm sure you've done this like like you push your head off the pillow to roll over and your neck like freaks or kinks have done that but that seems like i could make sense of that

2:26Scott D. Johnston: and when i was in high school i was in a smaller bed like my childhood bed and by the time i graduated i had grown enough that when i would sleep twitch i would crunch my toes against the the baseboard of the bed but that yeah no mcl sleep twitch is by far i think my most random dumb way of getting hurt. But this... Is this a sunscreen sweat in the eyes? No, it wasn't a liquid. Okay. I was grilling. Okay. And as I went to season the meat, right as I dumped it down, and it was in low light, so my face was a little closer to the grill than usual, a giant gust kicked up in blue salt directly into my eye.

3:13That went

3:14Scott D. Johnston: far off so that happened not far off but like this the very specific piece would just be who would ever think that that's from last i got these really fine particles uh this is now two days ago i got these really fine particles just like peppered like buckshot my eye softly and without being able to help it my eye blinked oh and i got several salt pieces under my eyelid

3:43Brakken Kraker: It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Yeah.

3:46Scott D. Johnston: You must use very finely ground salt. Well, I have the garlic salt and then the type you grind up, some pink Himalayan that's very coarse, but I was applying some very just fine table salt to it.

3:59Brakken Kraker: This is all a cover for your dope usage. You could just tell us. It's probably legal where you're at. I believe it is.

4:06Scott D. Johnston: If you smoke weed and only affect one eye, yeah. That's a good point. So it was ridiculous. So I immediately went inside and started flushing it because salt burns a little bit. Imagine that. My eye was like the slug.

4:22Brakken Kraker: You suck the liquid right out of your eyeball.

4:25Scott D. Johnston: That had to feel weird. Yeah. So it was an interesting tingle going on in the eyeball. And I flushed it out for a while, but I could just tell it wasn't all going and you kind of just had to wait for it to dissolve. But I don't know what the dissolving rate of sodium is in the eyeball.

4:44Brakken Kraker: It's probably pretty good. But in doing so, it also scratched me in there.

4:47Scott D. Johnston: So yesterday I had to go in and get the dye put into my eye and they search for how bad is the scratch and where is it and then get the prescription.

5:00Brakken Kraker: You had to go to the doctor for this. This is a...

5:02Scott D. Johnston: Yeah, it just never went away. It was affecting me pretty good, Kirk.

5:08Brakken Kraker: Really fine salt and really windy and way too close to the steak or whatever.

5:14Scott D. Johnston: Yeah.

5:15Brakken Kraker: Huh. Yeah. The more you know...

5:18Scott D. Johnston: So I'm not injured, but my eye is damaged. And for the next five days, we're on this prescription eye drop, and then hopefully it improves, and I don't have to go see an eye doctor. Bet you they hadn't heard that one before. Or maybe they have. So you got what in your eye? I said salt. I said, okay, like, was it on your finger? No, I know better than that. but so it's interesting because i was researching actually what lens type is best for night running uh with a headlamp because when i get allergens in my eye it can really like mess with me my eyes will puff up pretty good and so whether it's yellow tinted or just a clear lens i was just looking at that thinking man i pretty soon i'm gonna be wearing glasses for everything and then not even like four hours later.

6:16Scott D. Johnston: It's like, well, now I have to get grill glasses.

6:19Brakken Kraker: You can double up your run glasses with your grill glasses. You'd probably be fine. Probably. People wear glasses at night while running, huh? I don't know. I've never seen it. What a weirdo. If I saw somebody running by with sunglasses or appearing to be sunglasses in the dark, I'd be like, what a...

6:34Scott D. Johnston: You've seen the infomercials for those yellow tinted driving glasses? Uh-huh.

6:38Brakken Kraker: Oh, yeah. I own a couple of yellow... They're supposed to help with contrast. I own a couple of yellow tinted glasses. Yeah? Oh, yeah. How do you like them at night? I don't wear them at night. They just brighten things up on a cloudy day. I'd rarely wear them.

6:51Scott D. Johnston: I don't think they're actually good. I think there was a study where they actually showed you're worse at picking up pedestrians with those on. Interesting. I mean, what they probably do is take away some of the glare from the streetlights, and then people's eyes feel less strain at night, but I don't think they help you. So it looks like clear lenses with just a coating on it to take away glare from lights is the way to go. In case anyone was wondering.

7:18Brakken Kraker: Real quick, before we get into you a little further.

7:21Scott D. Johnston: And also, yes, I think I have seen someone running with clear glasses on. At night. Well, I don't know if it was, I don't recall, but.

7:29Brakken Kraker: Clear glasses make sense to me, actually. Like, it was a very cloudy morning this morning. I had my regular running sunglasses on. And I had to ditch them by a fire hydrant because I was like, these are too dark in the conditions. Yeah. So a nice yellow tinted running glass. I could see, but at nighttime, I guess it would just seem kind of foolish. But you get sensitive eyes. I think I've seen Jeff Browning running in something like that.

7:50Scott D. Johnston: Yeah. Runs for ultra.

7:52Brakken Kraker: I mean, some of these guys are wearing sunglasses on indoor tracks. So you tell me. Anyway. Very quickly. This episode is going to be a bit more about you today. So the stage is yours. But I do just want to pay a couple minutes of conversational service to the last Soul Ultra or the Soul. I forget what it was called. But it just ended last night, this morning. Where was this one? Have you been paying attention? I don't know. Ireland, Germany, overseas? Oh, no.

8:22Scott D. Johnston: I was tracking a different one in Idaho. Jared Price had run it the last two years and he didn't this year. But they ended up going much further than the course record. So I was watching that one.

8:33Brakken Kraker: Well, now I'm trying to, I don't want to misspeak on the name of this. So I'm going to look it up because it's been all over my feed. You have not followed this, huh? No. Oh, let's look here. What was it? Real riveting stuff. The Last Soul. Yeah, the Last Soul Ultra. And we've talked about this gentleman a lot, but Mark Dowdle went over there and I think he covered 94 to 97 loops. The last check-in was 391 miles run and they fell, I think, three hours short of four full days. I think they went, yeah, something like that. So the absolute unbelievable, let's see, I'm seeing 100, let's see what it was.

9:24Brakken Kraker: Yeah, 630.4 kilometers. What does that equal in miles? 94 loops. 94 hours straight so anyways this thing i mean came down to it and finally mark won again missed his flight somehow another one of these dudes got him a last minute private jet out he arrived to the start line he arrived at the start line wait wait wait i thought you meant it went so late he missed his flight home he missed his flight two or there was some cancellation to get overseas. So one of these guys, and I can look up the, he's another ultra guy, set him up with a private jet. He's documenting this whole thing, right? Like, I don't know what I'm, and he's in this private jet all alone.

10:09Brakken Kraker: And he arrives at the start line with like a red-eye flight, last minute, a whole day of travel gone awry. And he tows the start line 18 minutes before the whole event started. Mark Dowdle did. The strings pulled to get him to the start line were astronomical, just that he arrived. I mean, one little thing more could have went wrong and he wouldn't have been there in time to start. So he has a whole day of travel, not ideal sleep, if hardly any, and then goes and runs for four, basically four full days straight, covering that much distance, just under 400 miles, and wins the thing against another huge field of like, Everybody flew over there.

10:49Brakken Kraker: The best of the best were all there. And I just can't wrap my head around it. And then you watch. He's at the finish line. It's all finally over. His competition didn't make the last lap. He was cracked. Rightfully so. And he gives a speech without slurring a word, without an um in there, with the most direct, poignant message, as if the dude is fully rested. you know playing mind games being his crazy self and i just i'm starting to project onto myself like like i can't see how it's possible i can't even imagine i'm not i don't think i'm that kind of tough and i respect i'm not i know that so i asked myself so go check it out the stuff on his feed in the in this last soul ultra feed is pretty cool so it led me to a conversation with my buddy TJ, who we've had on the podcast, how long do you really think you could go?

11:44Brakken Kraker: For real, let's be honest with ourselves here. What do you really think? And maybe you don't know until you're there, which is probably the only true answer. But I said I could probably go about a day and a half.

11:55Scott D. Johnston: I don't know because I've never been a durable runner. Me either. I get beat up by the effort, just by the task of doing it. I generally think that it's certain types of ultras, certain types of things, like maybe my mind would betray me. I have to think my, I've always thought my body would betray me in this. Now, certainly my mind would at some point. I know I'm not built for what he's doing, but I can't even get to the point of how tough could I get? Because I think my body would be so broken. At least I can't get my mind over that hurdle, the physical beat up hurdle, unless that tells me what I need to know that, yeah, they all get there and their mind's just tougher.

12:37Brakken Kraker: Well, I assume you can walk, run 15 minute miles on a broken body if you want it bad enough, most of the time until it gets so bad, right? We're thinking in the context of moving through space quickly, but if I need to do a one minute run walk because my foot's broke, I could probably do that for a while. Yeah, but starting up each time, right? Correct. And so I figured I could get 24 hours and I said, if my body holds up, my foot might, something might happen to me because I can tend to be the same way you're talking about. So I don't think it'd get weird until those final like 20 to 24 hours, just cognitively.

13:14Brakken Kraker: And then as that second day, I've gotten nights where I think one or two nights, I've gotten no sleep in my life and the one or two hours, but now with that physical exertion, but physical exertion seems to perk me up most of the time versus the opposite. And I thought I'd probably get somewhere into that middle part of the second day and be like, this is just like, This is not worth it. I would be like, what am I fighting for out here? I don't know. And I don't see myself going that long. But I got me curious.

13:39Scott D. Johnston: I also know that I'm a sweller. I think my lower legs would swell up if I have to rest. I would have to be feet above my heart every time I stopped. Because I think I would just get like, my feet would just be beat up and puffy. And I don't know if I have the mentality to want to take stumps out there each lap. So no, I don't know if I consider it racing. It's more of a survival competition, but I know that I wouldn't survive it.

14:10Brakken Kraker: Well, it is a race. Of course it's a race.

14:12Scott D. Johnston: It's not a race because it's not about getting done fast, which makes it not a race.

14:15Brakken Kraker: I don't know if I agree with that. I have to think about that more.

14:18Scott D. Johnston: A race to endure. By definition, is getting to someplace first, fastest. And that's not what this is. So I do not think there are races.

14:29Brakken Kraker: Well, that last lap was a race in that instance then because Mark finished in time. His competition, his competitor didn't. And he won that race. I think he still had to do an extra one. Well, he had already finished. I don't know if it worked that way. I don't think so. I think he was watching it on the live broadcast. Anyways.

14:46Scott D. Johnston: No, I think I'd die on the hill that it's not a race.

14:50Brakken Kraker: Okay.

14:50Scott D. Johnston: I got to think about that. It's a competition for sure, but it's not a race, which changes everything mentally. and I know I'm not good at that kind of thing. So me saying it's not a race is not me denigrating this. This is just classifying it. It's not for time. It's not to get done quick. It's not to get there first. It's to be longest.

15:11Brakken Kraker: And open-ended is not my strength. To not know when it's going to be done. Yeah.

15:17Scott D. Johnston: Everyone I watch and I think, no, not for me. I couldn't do what they're doing.

15:21Brakken Kraker: I'm not saying I'm curious because I don't really think I am right now. I'm suffering for that long. Um, I like to feel a sting and get it over with. Maybe there'll be a day, but even like 300 miles in and the strategic hot lap and running 38 minutes for lap, whatever, 80 after that long on feet, you know, running eight to nine minute miles after 300 miles in your legs. So you can get a nap, which is what happened. I'm just even thinking like, what do even have the ability at that point to move that quickly to earn the nap i don't know but anyways it just was pretty pretty impressive it's really like he the the um the media that's been really i don't know it's really built up this backyard ultra format and there've been some good ones between the g1m ultra uh you know nick bears ultra and then this one just getting eyes on it it's been pretty dang good for the sport and the amount of views and comments and yeah it's like I've never expected to see that big a buy-in.

16:22Brakken Kraker: And now you have somebody that doesn't even run that I train in the gym was like, did you see this thing? It's like, okay, if it's in your algorithm on your Instagram, this is reaching people. And I just think that's pretty cool. And Mark's, I hate to say it, is kind of the face of it.

16:38Scott D. Johnston: And we interviewed him six months ago. Go listen to his interview. Anyways. Well, and I think that's the important part is that the non-runners get this. I also think the non-childhood runners are the people that are good at this because people who grow up running have an advantage as runners and racers. They do. There's no way around that. But everything you and I ever cultivated in ourselves mentally was about analyzing how long we need to do something for and filling that as intensely as possible and being done. It's kind of like when you finally get an injury diagnosis. Fine. I know what it is.

17:16Scott D. Johnston: now I can move forward. Just having an endpoint is everything. Having a prescription, I just need to follow this task and I'm done when it's done. The open-endedness I think is really hard for lifelong runners to deal with. I think people who found running later in life are the ones that mentally are suited for this. Maybe not suited, but are unencumbered by preconceived mental toughness limiters. I also think as a result, every man identifies with it a little bit more than just running a fast marathon, I think.

17:48Brakken Kraker: Yeah. And, uh, it opens the door for 95 % more runners to potentially be a champion or good at something. Because if you can go run 10 minute miles, like if you can run 12 minute miles for four miles on repeat, like you have a chance, like we've said this, but like Mark Donald's marathon might not even be three 30, right? yet he can run for four days uh and i i don't he's probably faster than that but nonetheless like like every half the people listening here if they're between the ears is right can be inspired by the potential of it like you don't have to be the fastest you have to be the most strategic and toughest and so it like lends its space like i'm gonna go show up at a 5k and i know i'm gonna be middle of the pack no matter what i'm just not that fast but i could beat all of you mfers if it came down to toughness and i have that so this event could be for me so it's It's a rare avenue for those who aren't fast on foot to still win, for real, win something very big.

18:45Brakken Kraker: And so I think it's pretty cool that way too.

18:47Scott D. Johnston: You just have to be fairly decent at the act of running. You don't have to be fast at running. That changes everything.

18:55Brakken Kraker: Yeah. I don't know. We don't need to dwell on anymore because I know we've got stuff to get to. But it just finished up last night and I thought it was a pretty cool thing to follow.

19:02Scott D. Johnston: My curiosity is what is the shelf life for these individuals? like is this kind of like cutting weight for fighters where after you do it enough times like it changes fundamentally the way your body reacts in response to things and you just don't have the same response to it anymore and now you have like fundamentally changed yourself for life for worse like will they have the same kind of thing here where when you destroy your nervous system the way they do here you put your system into shock the way they do after a while does it not snap back the same?

19:35Brakken Kraker: I guess we don't know yet. You'd have to ask Harvey Lewis, who's been doing this for how long? And he's one of the best. He just won one of those last big up down backyard ultras. I don't know how long he's been doing it, but he's been, I mean, years and years and he's still showing up. So I don't know. Maybe it's a DNA thing. Maybe it's literally just a toughness game. I don't know, but I'm not sure.

19:59Scott D. Johnston: It is the first sport where I truly believe the phrase mind over matter it's a great poster to hang on your wall but it's not true mind over matter is actually

20:08Brakken Kraker: false for the most part yeah mind over matter is gonna go help you win the olympic 5k right like you can't change matters form or phase with your mind but you can win an ultra like this off your

20:24Scott D. Johnston: mind it's the only sport i ever truly believe mind over matter i'm trying to think if there's

20:29Brakken Kraker: another one maybe like archery or darts or bowling or something like that where like you just have

20:34Scott D. Johnston: confidence and you're locked in and loose and you just do your thing like a very finite skill yeah something where you have to be loose and precise yeah maybe that's the only or musician maybe but it doesn't have to do with toughness no it doesn't this is the only toughness sport where mind over matter is the differentiator not a not a component but the differentiator

20:56Brakken Kraker: yeah i'll have to i'll have to see i'll reach out to him after the dust set we'll see if we can't get him back on i mean he lives local here and his wife i would really like to talk to his wife who he gave a really nice speech to at the end because she's there for the whole dang thing too you know her and the two-man crew of her and his best buddy over there like what is that like on

21:15Scott D. Johnston: that side of it i'd love to chat with her but um i just got a text a terrible text to receive okay lisa sent a picture of the oven turned to bake how long has it been on we love since 20 minutes before we started recording. We love to catch the other person forgetting to turn the oven off.

21:34Brakken Kraker: Idiot. So she just sent me a picture of it. Draw it. That gets me.

21:39Scott D. Johnston: All right, before we get into the next part, I have a next next part. I told an athlete I work with, we would answer this today. Okay. So I have a Q &A for you. So this is from Ken. I'm planning to race in Europe and I'm thinking about the six hour difference from Eastern time. When I go to the West Coast, I just go to bed and get up early easy. But Paris is six hours later, so it's not that easy. I'll fly out Wednesday night, get there Thursday morning. The race is Saturday. I'm considering just shifting my home schedule gradually for a week or two before I fly out. What do you recommend?

22:12Brakken Kraker: I don't recommend that. No? No. I recommend Russian roulette. Just get there. Sleep as much as you can in the day or two surrounding your travel. Get on schedule and hopefully sleep deep. and I don't know, changing six hours, trying to slowly get there. Are you going to go to bed at 4 p.m.? I just don't think you're going to sleep. I think you're going to screw yourself up more by trying to shift your schedule, and it's going to throw so many other things off that I think you're better off showing up and taking your chances.

22:42Scott D. Johnston: If you're going the opposite direction, I would consider this, where you just have to stay up an hour later each night.

22:50Brakken Kraker: Staying up later, yes. Going to bed earlier and starting your day earlier, no, I agree with you. That's the main reason.

22:56Scott D. Johnston: And I think they've shown, there's some compelling research that shows that light is one of the most important factors to handling jet lag and sleep deprivation. That your brain is just super sensitive to daylight. And so that doing things with, some people do it with blue light, but doing some sort of light, either occlusion or light immersion in order to change what your body thinks is happening before and during your travels. That's something worth doing. But again, you can stay up late and have a certain type of light on way easier than you can just turn all the lights off and fall asleep two hours earlier.

23:36Brakken Kraker: with the bustle of the household and the streets and knowing. I don't know, man. Maybe tweak, turn the dial an hour or two on your sleep schedule. Like if you go to bed at 1030, let's try 830 or nine. And then that makes the adjustment a little less awful. But I do agree with you about it's much easier to kick the rock further down the road and go to bed later. But then what do you just wake up at your 6 a.m. anyways? And then you're just sleep deprived going into it. You know what I mean? Like I say stay on schedule. I do.

24:02Scott D. Johnston: I would try to move it up a little bit because every little bit would help. But that's going to require starting by waking up extra early so that you can go to bed earlier. And you're going to live in this very fatigued state for about half your day in the week or two leading up to this point. So I would try it a little bit, but I wouldn't get too concerned if you can't make it stick. And then, yeah, you just sleep as much as you can. You accumulate hours, not schedule. because you can tell yourself I'm going on your schedule when I get there and it just won't work.

24:36Brakken Kraker: Yeah, but I had a handful of athletes go compete in Ireland, the OCR World Champs. And I think it was a six-hour difference, seven-hour difference, something like that. I don't recall. We both had an age group athlete on the podium. Yes, we did. Vivian and Jess, right?

24:53Scott D. Johnston: Yeah, they crushed.

24:54Brakken Kraker: That's right, they did. But the idea was like, yeah, I'll sleep when I can on the flight over. I'm going to be in tunnel vision, brain dead mode. I'm going to stay up as long as I can and get on schedule. And both did that and both had legs that wanted to run. They were totally fine, which is always the risk you take. So, and I always feel like, have you ever traveled? Like you've done plenty of travels overseas to see Marin and such. And when I've traveled, I usually actually, like once I get my first night's sleep, I kind of have like a decently feeling body that first day or two. And then it kind of hits me.

25:31Scott D. Johnston: Yeah. For me, I'm really not great at sleeping to schedules overseas. In fact, when I've traveled for races three times, it's never gone well. But the last time I did it, my first night was fantastic. I fell asleep. I slept long. I got up. It was great. And then I was unable to fall asleep before like three in the morning, the rest of the trip. So it's like, even that's hit or miss. But if you can get that's why now I just take the sleep on the plane when I can get it. Yep. I agree. And if you're so inclined, then play around with sleep aids. But that's something you have to test beforehand. Before you go over, you've got to do a sleep aid, get up and do a hard workout the next morning and see if this is a feasible thing for you.

26:14Brakken Kraker: I'm not recommending it, but if you're so inclined, then I kind of recommend it. I guess what race is this? This would be an OCR race. I don't know why that seems important to me, but threading the needle on a marathon, I don't know, but OCR feels like it's the wild west. We rolled the dice in OCR, right?

26:31Scott D. Johnston: It can't be much worse sleep than some of our travels on the shoestring budget back in the day for Spartan. So it's one of those things that you can drive yourself crazy worrying about, or you can just take sleep every time you get it. Like I've tried to stay awake on flights and plan everything out and I still didn't sleep when I got there. So take your sleep when you get it. Yeah.

26:47Brakken Kraker: That's how I feel about it.

26:48Scott D. Johnston: I don't think I'd change much. Yeah. Yep. So there you go, Ken. I don't know if we muddied the water. That was not helpful, probably.

26:54Brakken Kraker: Are you about to tell me about you? I am, Kirk. Can I interrupt real quick before you get started? I have to pee. Oh, good. I'm overhydrated. Do you mind if I step out real quick so I can be fully present for your conversation?

27:07Scott D. Johnston: But I am going to turn my volume all the way up.

27:09Brakken Kraker: I have multiple doors between the mic and the bathroom. A good strong stream would cut through that. Wait, watch this.

27:16Scott D. Johnston: Oh, he muted.

27:18Brakken Kraker: I'm back and clear-headed. Okay. So let's talk about you. What's up, Bracken?

27:23Scott D. Johnston: Well, I've had a few conversations with either athletes or in some group chats. One was in the race brain. Just a few comments have popped up. They kind of all alluded to the same thing. It was something along the lines of, you're just not really ever going to race again, are you?

27:42Brakken Kraker: Okay.

27:43Scott D. Johnston: And if someone's joking about that finally out loud, you know that that has been thought or said previously. I would agree. Yeah. Which means it's just officially lying in the sand time. Can I just qualify those comments real quick? Yes. Were you asking for them? Meaning were you asking for feedback and not what was said to you or somebody's like, hey, man, real talk here. This is where you're at. Two were like that and one was like, oh, come on. You know, you're probably not very racing again.

28:12Brakken Kraker: Okay.

28:13Scott D. Johnston: Based off a comment I said alluding to training or something. And I've received a couple of joking comments from my friends about like, you know, you still talk on the podcast like you're actually training for something. And I've realized like I do. But at some point, like you live longer than the joke and it's not funny anymore or it's not pertinent anymore. And you're just like the sad old timer hanging on. Now, that's a little bit dramatic. but I think they're right. When was my last major race?

28:50Brakken Kraker: I think you did a High Rocks. What was it? I think it was doubles with Rich, no, or Joyce. I did a race, yes,

28:57Scott D. Johnston: but I'm saying something that I prepped for and ran. I ran with Joyce. I ran with Jack, but both of those were abbreviated coming off things. Ran with Rich, but that was like 10 weeks after taking nine weeks off.

29:12Brakken Kraker: Was it like the Michigan Spartan or the Ohio Spartan two falls ago, two years ago, full two years ago? That was not. The unfortunate thing is I don't think that was two years ago. Three years ago?

29:25Scott D. Johnston: Let's check.

29:27Brakken Kraker: Because those are the ones that's coming to mind right now.

29:30Scott D. Johnston: Anyways, point is we can't really point to it. We don't really know. I think that tells us everything we need to know. I know that, let's just see, what's high result? My last pro race in High Rocks was, and I'll cut all this downtime out. Last pro race was 2020.

29:52Brakken Kraker: Solo pro.

29:53Scott D. Johnston: Solo pro race 2020. And what about doubles? Last pro, well, I never did a pro.

30:00Brakken Kraker: Well, whatever, open, that's fine.

30:01Scott D. Johnston: um joyce was nine months ago jack was two years ago and rich was three years ago 2023 so my high rock single pro is six years which is long enough to be declared legally dead so let's just check athelix to make sure there's nothing else i but i i mean it's not that hard to see what the point is here that it's gone on for so long that it's not even like it's kind of ridiculous.

30:29Brakken Kraker: What was your response to these humans that made the comments? When it was just kind of a joke, I laughed and I was like, nope, never gonna. But then you thought about it afterwards.

30:38Scott D. Johnston: Absolutely. And it, yeah, Michigan was 2023.

30:43Brakken Kraker: Okay.

30:44Scott D. Johnston: So we're coming up on three years from that abominable snow race was January, 2024, two and three years since OCR, six years since Spartan or since High Rock's individual pro. it's been three years since I ran that 4th of July one mile race. It's just starting to get to the point where this is when it gets away from, it's just gone, right? It's gone. So it's lying in the sand time. It's either time to actually get back to doing this thing that I claim I love, which is training for races and competing, or just embrace that I'm a coach and a speaker and speak in that running in past tense, not being a little disingenuous when I say I do these workouts because the reality is I'm not doing a lot of these workouts anymore.

31:31Brakken Kraker: Is that all fair? Is that a fair preamble here, Kirk?

31:33Scott D. Johnston: That's very fair.

31:34Brakken Kraker: Of course, that's very fair. I will say line in the sand time, I think, is an all right way to put it. Athletes do leave sport and re-find it all the time. Door wouldn't be closed. Correct. So it's not like there are seasons of life, not saying you're in any particular season of life other than post-injury recovery season of life and lots of investment in the kids' activities seasons of life.

32:03Scott D. Johnston: So there's that. But everyone has that to some extent. The point is, it's not closing the door on ever racing again. It's changing the shift in how I talk about who I am as a runner and how I train and past versus present tense on the podcast. I think that matters for credibility, honestly.

32:23Brakken Kraker: Right up until it doesn't. Stolen valor at some point. But I agree. I mean, I think it would be a checkmark in the positives column if you were still in the thick of it. Yeah. We would in no way negatively impact your credibility by chasing things, for sure. No. The hard part about that – okay, and I'll shut up and the floor is yours. But some of the best absolute coaches in the world are former runners who no longer pursue any sort of competitive nature at all. Their minds are great. They get it because they've lived it for a period of time. the Salazars and the Mike Smiths and the, um, at eye stones of the world.

33:02Brakken Kraker: Right. But they, uh, they're no longer doing the thing and they're respected as all get out.

33:08Scott D. Johnston: And that's important that they don't talk about it as if they're still doing it. Sure. I get it. And that was kind of the takeaway I had. Like it is time to stop talking about training and racing and the mentality of it. If I'm not doing those things, is now to talk about how to do those things. Just shifting that frame of reference, I think is important for our credibility and for probably a healthy understanding of where I'm at in my life. I think it's that line in the sand time. I did make a comment, not a comment.

33:43Brakken Kraker: I had a conversation about when you were training for your ultra, you don't know this, but I'll just share it with you. And you can tell me what you think of it.

33:51Scott D. Johnston: And I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings.

33:52Brakken Kraker: But I was talking, I maybe had this conversation with two different people where you had the assist pop up and you stepped away from training and your ultra lead. And then obviously you didn't race the 50K in Superior nor the, what was the name of the trail again? The Ironstone. And I flat out said, I said, if I found myself in Bracken's shoes, I would have been going in every day to get that thing drained. I would have found a way to show up to the start line because I cared enough about what I was pursuing. and I would have then dealt with it afterwards, but I would have literally begged, borrowed and steal and patch jobbed my way so I could train, so I could get there without exception.

34:31Brakken Kraker: I said, so I just don't think he wants it bad enough right now because he would find a way if he did. And so that was my takeaway from that experience.

34:41Scott D. Johnston: Would you agree with that? Yeah. In fact, I don't know if I said it to, I said it, I don't know if it was someone in my family or not, but I feel like it was someone in my family who said, how bad is it like pain wise? And my answer was, I think Kirk would race on it. You're probably right.

34:57Brakken Kraker: Like you said, if you really wanted to, yeah, you could have probably. It would have been really inconvenient and a lot of commitment and a real big pain in the butt to get there.

35:07Scott D. Johnston: But the difference is you would have had a lot of foundation to back it up. You didn't. Yeah. And an investment of training on the line. I didn't. Correct. So it was easy to be like, let's do this smart thing. If it doesn't go perfectly, I can't do this thing because that's how I was starting with one hand tied behind my back.

35:28Brakken Kraker: But okay. Anyways, so that was my question was like, is there something that either you don't want bad enough or doesn't excite you enough or just emotional energies elsewhere? That's what I had been wondering.

35:39Scott D. Johnston: Yeah. And obviously the answer is yes to all that.

35:42Brakken Kraker: Yeah.

35:42Scott D. Johnston: But a couple things have happened. The first is that I'm actually really looking forward to turning 40 next year. It's a rebirthing. It kind of feels like one of those, we talk about generating momentum. It seems like a fresh sheet.

35:57Brakken Kraker: I just flip the page.

35:59Scott D. Johnston: Hey, you're a master's athlete. It does excite me. I'm excited to be the youngest guy again. And so that's one thing.

36:08Brakken Kraker: And I could not agree more. Just to chime in, you know, we had talked about this in years past. It is real. It turns the page over and you're literally starting fresh. It's amazing.

36:20Scott D. Johnston: That kind of goes along the line with one of my real big issues, if I'm just really burying my soul here, is that I have such a hard time losing that I have a hard time taking a start line if I'm not fit. We knew that about you.

36:35Brakken Kraker: Well, yeah. But saying it out loud, I will avoid a start line now because I don't have

36:41Scott D. Johnston: the fitness to back it up and I can't wing it like I used to. Winging it was fun when you're fit. So Masters feels like that. Well, I'm not trying to win the race. I can race against my peer group and it feels freeing. Maybe that's a really weak cop out, but that feels freeing. I think I know where this is going.

37:04Brakken Kraker: Okay.

37:05Scott D. Johnston: I don't know if you do. Just like the salt in the eye. But anyway, what that made me think is that I think at this point I take any motivation and develop the other things along the way. And then the second thing is that Ironstone happened. And I tracked the race the best I could, which is difficult to do in the moment. But enough people are posting things. And then the results came out. And the course record was broken by like three people. And it was the fastest year overall by far. and I think one of two things happens when you have your eye and I had all my math worked out of what I thought I could do and where I could shave time off and people come out and beat that time.

37:47Scott D. Johnston: You either are like, oh, thank goodness or you get really pumped and I didn't feel like one ounce of like, oh, I can't ever go back and do that. It was like, now I have to because now it's fast there and I want to find out. So that was a feeling I didn't expect to feel. I expected to feel like, oh, good thing I didn't go out there because I would have got beat. Instead, it was still, Ironstone still grabs me not because of the time challenge, but because of the experience it's going to provide.

38:16Brakken Kraker: Okay. So anyway. That was mid-July?

38:19Scott D. Johnston: Yeah.

38:20Brakken Kraker: Mid-July, right? Okay.

38:21Scott D. Johnston: And I probably watched five or six more of their things this week again and two last week. Like it still is just not leaving. So here's what I need to have happen. The things I've talked about doing need to happen now or they need to be stopped talking about. Okay. Stop being talked about. So what have I talked about repeatedly what I'd like to do with racing or fitness or whatever? I'm a broken record at some point, but I have some fitness goals and I've talked about them on here. Well, it's been ultra-centric. Yeah, but there's a few different things I've talked. The Ironstone is one of them.

39:02Scott D. Johnston: trying to go after a 60-minute high rocks as the other and running a fast mile. I keep coming back to those three, but I've talked about going after the Lake Geneva FKT again and Porcupine Mountain FKT. Those things moved the needle for me. So those five things all have to happen in the next 12 months.

39:16Brakken Kraker: Isn't there also like a seven peak something out in Europe? Seven sisters in Ireland. Seven sisters in Ireland, yeah.

39:21Scott D. Johnston: Yeah, I'm comfortable with that being a bucket list item because logistics with kids. But the other five, I think all need to happen in these next 12 months. at the very least, train for them and pull three of them off. And that can be considered, all right, I'm doing the thing again. But if I go another calendar year without doing any of the things that I claim to really want to do and claim to care about, then I also have to stop talking as if I'm a current athlete.

39:53Brakken Kraker: Well, it's okay to dream. And everybody knows you're a dreamer. Yeah, but you must be paired with work. Correct. Right. It's interesting because my gut tells me, and I'm not feeling what you're feeling, but knowing you as your strengths, what invigorates you, what might work with your time availability and commitments is like, you are one of the most athletic runners I know, meaning you're a true athlete and you also happen to run. Whereas most people listening to this aren't true athletes, they are runners. But I almost would say like, if I think of athlete, I think of, I think a Bracken, I think a Bracken is an athlete first.

40:29Brakken Kraker: I always have though, right? Like you're a laterally sound, explosive, punchy. I mean, you can still dunk a basketball and you're not exceptionally tall. Okay. So you've got some pop in you. And I remember when we were together and you did rip that last 60 second quarter. We talked about it in a recent episode when we were doing this, our session together at Devil's Lake. it was like if there was a guy that could go run the 800 as a Masters or the Mayo as a Masters and the availability of these events are way more than you think once you start looking into this by the way and it's like if there was a guy who wants to go win and literally play the card he's been dealt by God it would be the short stuff and it would be not three hour long runs and it would be not so I thought maybe you were going to go that direction when I said I think I know what you're going to say It was like, well, duh, that's where you thrive.

41:23Brakken Kraker: Anyways, that's just...

41:25Scott D. Johnston: Well, and I do think Masters Miling in 800 is a really logical place for me to go. Because for whatever reason, even though my speed was very hard earned throughout my teens, it's not leaving very quickly and it should have. So I do think it makes sense. But I am my own enemy here. I'm my own greatest enemy with training. And we've talked about it. We don't need to go. We can go listen to other past episodes if you want to know all my weaknesses about being an athlete. But the greatest one is the perfect is the enemy of the good with me. Where I want to do an ultra and I want to go in on that, but I still want to do this and I want to do that.

42:03Scott D. Johnston: And it's like I always pull myself in every direction. And as a result, bite off too much more than I can chew in one of them. And there's no balance. And there's also no single direction focus. and there hasn't been since OCR, but OCR was so good for me as a person because it doesn't require single direction focus other than the single direction of being good at OCR. The nice thing is, is one thing will inevitably feed the other.

42:32Brakken Kraker: And the example is I pivot and go all in on ultra training, hit that, and then be like, I'm done with that. And immediately pivot to something completely different. And all of that set me up to have a good different thing. And if I picked speed first and tried to extend it to ultra, guess what probably would have happened? Probably would have positively impacted that, right? So I don't even think it's the how many ingredients can you get into the recipe. It's like what's the first ingredient that I need to chase and do that thing and then worry about the next one completely compartmentalized next.

43:05Brakken Kraker: Correct. So yes.

43:06Scott D. Johnston: And I worry too much about having the perfect stimulus rather than the one thing I need to have, which is consistent stimulus.

43:16Brakken Kraker: It's the only thing that matters. I agree with that. Have you been, I mean, we talked off mic that you'd been ramping things back up a little bit. Has that continued in recent weeks? For me, yes. Okay, so it has.

43:27Scott D. Johnston: But that's not looking like, it's not showing a lot of work. But it's more than previous. Yes. And I'm at the point where I feel good. I went and did 65 minutes on the trails. It's hot and muggy. Wore a pack. Felt good start to finish. Yesterday, I did some flat and up and downhill treadmill stuff and just felt good. This morning, I got up and played basketball and just felt good. I don't have anything. Everything feels good. Well, okay. That's a good start. That's a good start. And running feels good. but I don't feel here fast or strong. But when I go to run fast, I'm like, oh, that's a little faster than I thought it should be.

44:08Scott D. Johnston: Like everything just is kind of in a place where it's ready to go in a direction.

44:12Brakken Kraker: Well, here's my belief after knowing you for quite a while. And we have not as many recently, but we've had plenty of talks off mic too. We preamble for 20 minutes before we hit the record button. Then sometimes you and I sit down and bullshit for another 10 afterwards, right? So we like get caught up on stuff that we don't talk to you guys about in the audience. but knowing you, and I think the listeners would agree, like the perfect build can't exist right now. No. Right? I'm not saying anything you don't know. And I also think there's a lot of power in a position like you are in. Okay, you're relatively healthy.

44:46Brakken Kraker: You've gotten some decent feedback in a couple of sessions. You're by no mean nearly as fit as you want to be, right? But the ball is rolling a little bit. It can't be a spring of 2027 thing. It can't be a, it's got to be like a, what can I find in November thing? That's a stepping stone. And maybe it's a 10 K local trail race. That means nothing, but it doesn't have to be the big thing right away. But what it needs is something has to be on the calendar that already makes you feel the pressure of time. But I also don't think it needs to be scary right away. You just need to be like, I'm going to go do this trail race on the whatever trail at Kettle Moraine.

45:21Brakken Kraker: And I'm just going to do it. Who cares? Yeah. And so I think picking, if you're going to do this thing, it's not like you can't take the elevator from the first floor to the top. You got to take it one step at a time. And the first step might be the church 5K or it might be, do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

45:37Scott D. Johnston: Well, I do agree with that. And I think I'm in a good spot now where I have things on my calendar that I'm going to do next year. So Chicago High Rocks in February.

45:47Brakken Kraker: That is a box that must be checked.

45:51Scott D. Johnston: Okay. Ironstone in July is a race that must be run. And then there are two or three mile opportunities in June and July here.

46:00Brakken Kraker: Okay.

46:00Scott D. Johnston: Those are things that I want to be fit and nasty for, but those are months and months and months away. February is six months away, which is crazy to think. Which is so nice in that there's no time. I need the pressure of an event to keep me toeing the line, but if it's too close, I invariably reach for more and something bad happens because I haven't earned that yet. I need like 12 to 16 weeks to earn the right to focus on an event. So I think you're very correct. And the good, important races to me are far enough away that there's time to actually be good at them. So I don't have to compromise any sort of process.

46:41Scott D. Johnston: But I don't know if this is an announcement, But the facts are High Rocks in February, Miles in June and July, and Ironstone 100K in July are the focus of next year. So the focus of this year is to be ready to handle next year's training.

47:02Brakken Kraker: February is not that far away. I mean, it'll sneak up on us, right? Yeah. So, okay, if those are the - Six months. Six months till race day, almost on the dot. yeah yeah and you better you better get that ticket too that could be a whole nother thing

47:16Scott D. Johnston: it hasn't opened up yet but i mean i'll run i'll run open if i have to i'll take whatever ticket

47:21Brakken Kraker: i can get i but i need to race high rocks there put that 180 plus pounds to use bracken so i think then my thing my takeaway for you would be like and it could even be a quality session approach but like like what are a few stepping stones before that that at least show you show up and get in the competitive environment again. Even if it's like, I'm going to go tempo this, whatever it is that you can find. I don't really care. Not even treat them like a race, but still just start greasing the groove that way. What would be the stepping stones that you'd be open to in route? Mainly this fall.

47:55Scott D. Johnston: Well, I want to do the things I used to do that I've been too afraid to or fitness-wise unavailable to do in a while. So I would like to run a hard 5K time trial in fall. I would like to run around Lake Geneva as a time trial in fall. That and then Porcupine Mountains, get a recce out there done. Both of those last minute before the leaves are down, fully down.

48:23Brakken Kraker: Okay.

48:24Scott D. Johnston: When it's cool but not fully, like you can see the ground a bit. So those 5K, Lake Geneva Shore Path, and Porcupine Mountain Loop, those are three pieces. And I'll probably do, because it's been so long, I'll do a High Rock Sim as well. Yeah, as you should. Okay. I think, well, let me ask you before I give a little more advice.

48:47Brakken Kraker: So if you were to, like it starts today, whatever, it starts this week, what does that look like?

48:54Scott D. Johnston: My thoughts, and this is what I want a lot of feedback. John, my thoughts are that I treat this like I'm returning from injury. So you're cautious. And I'm prior, pardon me? You're cautious. Yeah, but intentional in building the structure up. In raising up, in doing my first long run, in doing my first couple runs, eight miles or longer or 60 minutes or longer, doing my first speed work, doing my first hybrid Metcon, I have a real big imbalance in my hips. just one of my standard tests to find out where my stability is at is just attempt a pistol squat with both legs not simultaneously and my left is so much more stable and strong than my right okay my knee and my hip so approaching it in a way that building on strength stability and durability and mechanics first and prioritizing intensity second.

50:00Brakken Kraker: Meaning like, for lack of a better term, like base phase mileage and foundational strength. Yeah, and if intensity needs to be there,

50:09Scott D. Johnston: it can happen on ERGs. And like run some gray zone stuff, run a dabble in some threshold stuff, but not making it like, I must hit 10 by 1 ,000 today. It's like getting to the point where an hour of running every day is just like yawn.

50:24Brakken Kraker: Yeah. I think if I, I mean, if, if I, if I didn't know much about you, just looking at things on paper, I would say, let's simplify it. And I would say, uh, we're going to run in a vacuum, do with that what you will. And we're going to strength train in a vacuum and do with that what you will. And we're going to pay a good three months to those things completely separately. Yeah. Before we start to dabble with increasing intensity or even starting to mash them together. Just to keep it straight because the press is your, are your eyes okay right now? That thing just like something happened and it's really bugging me.

51:01Brakken Kraker: I can see that. Yeah.

51:02Scott D. Johnston: I'm not supposed to touch it.

51:04Brakken Kraker: Yeah. Your eyes just will water it up. It feels like there's like there are two or three eyelashes in there right now and there's not. Yeah. Yeah. So keeping them separately for quite a while, because the problem with high rocks training is that you feel like you're going to be behind on so many things if you try to do all the things. So you just lay foundation in two very separate senses. And then you start to dabble with intermixing a little more frequently or at some point, but probably not doing that until, I hate to say it, as late as December.

51:34Scott D. Johnston: Yeah. Whenever my body wants it, whenever that is nine weeks, 12 weeks, 16, I don't know what it's going to be. But if there's high rocks movements, well, there probably aren't. It's functional first, but like functional movements, but without running involved whatsoever.

51:49Brakken Kraker: Sure. Nothing needs to be compromised. Correct.

51:52Scott D. Johnston: Yeah. Yeah. But building the pieces of it all, but in a way that I can do the thing every day, check the box, move on. But it has to, it has to start now.

52:02Brakken Kraker: I think the other thing you have to take into consideration, knowing yourself is like, what are your barriers to success? What have they been and what are they going to be? What's going to get in your way if it does?

52:13Scott D. Johnston: Getting into week three and not caring anymore. Choosing something else. Like, oh, I'll just push it off and I'll do this thing instead. It's always pushing it off for something else. That's always the thing. Pushing it off, what's the something else? It doesn't matter. Sometimes it's almost anything.

52:28Brakken Kraker: Like not even pushing it off for a different workout. Pushing it off because you're going to go work on Brayden's cart. Or pushing it off because it's just not convenient today and I'd have to squeeze it in and I only have an hour and it's not worth my time, so I'll do it tomorrow. Yep. You think that's your biggest barrier? 100%. So what's the action plan there then? If it's like, okay, I know myself well enough. I put other things first.

52:50Scott D. Johnston: When I started building up in winter for the ultra pursuits, we had a similar conversation. I said, there just has to be the time window and it has to be kept. And it was. And then I started up with that tendinopathy thing again. But it was working. It was working. I was getting good training. I was starting to feel fit. And then I had to take too much time off and then I was under the gun coming back. But that was the rule that I had and we had talked about and that it was working. There's a time window each day and it doesn't have to be first thing in the morning, but there's a time window that must be hit.

53:26And once I get to that time window, then that's just what it is.

53:30Brakken Kraker: And you have more moving parts. You have three kids and their schedules to uphold and such. So it's even more important for you. But that's how I am every single day with my sessions already. It's like, this is the window. This is where it's going to be done. And it's already in my schedule, like legitimately, actually. And so if I find value in it and I don't have as many moving pieces as you do, I don't have to bring a kid to practice. I don't have to go watch their game or to their race on the weekend. Got to be so vitally important for you.

53:57Scott D. Johnston: And it doesn't have to be seven days a week.

53:59Brakken Kraker: Heck, it doesn't even have to be six days a week. It can be the right five days a week. That will build plenty of momentum.

54:04Scott D. Johnston: But it has to be the five or the six or the seven that the schedule says.

54:07Brakken Kraker: Correct. Right.

54:08Scott D. Johnston: And like, for example, this weekend we have two races. Next weekend we don't have one. So this week has to be programmed different than next week. It can no longer just be, I'm going to do the things that present themselves. Not at the beginning. I can't be trusted.

54:23Brakken Kraker: So what do you need? Do you have this conversation with your wife?

54:26Scott D. Johnston: No.

54:27Brakken Kraker: No. Like you haven't had this conversation with her. Would she be a good accountability partner or no?

54:31Scott D. Johnston: I don't know if we're good accountability partners for each other, to be honest. Yeah. That doesn't work well in marriages. I've found that out myself. Yeah. Our relationship is not a tough love relationship. Yeah. It's a support-based relationship. And not that tough love can't be support, but it's not our version of it.

54:49Brakken Kraker: Being a trainer and a run coach, I've inevitably helped pretty much everybody I've dated, including my current wife, with, Oh, could you make me a training plan or can you do this? Of course I can. And inevitably they never continue and we end up just not doing that anymore because I go into coach mode or whatever. and that doesn't always work well with your significant other. Well, what about this? I have an idea. Tell me if you think you're up for it. Okay? Okay. I don't know if this would work if the roles were reversed, honestly, because I'm so intuitive at this point. But what about like these are the key sessions that I intend to hit this week or next week, telling somebody, me, and then I can ask you about them.

55:30Brakken Kraker: Or does that sound like too hand-holdy?

55:32Scott D. Johnston: it does but you get to a point of trustworthiness that uh at some point someone needs to grab your

55:38Brakken Kraker: hand well i think it would be i think it would be helpful in the beginning i think it would be i don't know get separate set of eyes on it too be like oh that sounds great what about this or something i don't know it's just a thought i'm fine with that you're fine you're fine with that that's gonna take some effort yeah it should yeah yeah i don't know just where my head's going

55:59Scott D. Johnston: So, yeah, I mean, it's put up or shut up time. This is lined in the sand. It needs to happen. But one of the nice things is that as soon as I decided it, I was like, yeah, I think I can do Ironstone next year because we're to the point where I'm comfortable handing Braden off for a weekend. And that is a big – it's a big physical place to be. But mentally, just even acknowledging that I can take a weekend for me, that's really, I think, indicative of my excitement level.

56:27Brakken Kraker: Who would you hand them off to?

56:29Scott D. Johnston: The Dans. We have Dan 1 and Dan 2 that I pit with. And one Dan has a son, Easton, who's in the same class as Brayden. And so we do all of our tuning and bouncing our ideas off each other for our class. And then the other Dan has a son named Arlo, who Brayden competed against for the last few years, but is younger than Brayden. So Brayden moved up, and Arlo's still in the other class. But at this point, the three of us could probably run each other's carts. We know each other's settings. We know how we like to think about it. We know how we like to respond to the changing track situation. So if one of them asked me to run their cart for the weekend, I'm to the point where I could say yes.

57:09Scott D. Johnston: And they'd get by okay. And I know that they could for ours as well. They know the quirks. They know if it doesn't start on first pole, what does this engine like? And what are the things that tend to go wrong? They know what to look for. So I have peace of mind that they'd, he'd be fine.

57:27Brakken Kraker: What if we started just a quick lip service? Cause obviously you're stating this because you want to be heard. You want to be held accountable. You're also like, like having, um, like you're acknowledging like you're self-aware, which

57:41Scott D. Johnston: is, I also want people to understand that. I, I understand if you're like a little tired of me talking as if I'm doing the thing.

57:47Brakken Kraker: Yeah. Well, so what I think would be fun and I can be part of this if, if as well, but like, what's our training update for the week? Like a quick three to five minutes. Like what are some of the highlight sessions I did that I feel like were impactful this last week? And we can do, the old obstacle dominator used to do it. What was your favorite session this week? Or what was your, I mean, you were part of that. What if we had just a little blip moving forward? Like give me something from the last week that you think made you better. And we just, we start there. That's it. Let's do it. And if you say nothing, then I make the six hour drive down there.

58:26Brakken Kraker: I get out the belt. Can you make me run with you? I don't know. It'd be fun. Maybe people could learn some stuff too with your decision making process because you have probably the best running mind better than mine out of anybody I know. Probably learn a bit from your decision making process. You rarely talk about it now. I would be very curious what decisions you make. I'd be super curious.

58:44Scott D. Johnston: Well, I think the decisions I'm going to make early on for this first, like we talked about, probably needs about three months to get body and engine where it wants. I'm going to be choosing what feels positive.

58:58Brakken Kraker: Best practice would be nice, but the workout I enjoy or look forward to is the one I'm going to choose. And that's exactly what you should do. And then the other thing is every decision should be made on what happens to get in your way if something pops up on the injury front. And so it's like we have to be must one, stay healthy or do what we can to stay healthy. Yeah. And then two, pick the things that keep you coming back for sure. Well, little things like when I run threshold intervals, which I'm still going to run threshold

59:25Scott D. Johnston: intervals. I'm going back to what I was doing leading into Michigan, which is they're just going to happen at eight to 10 % inclined.

59:31Brakken Kraker: That's really safe.

59:33Scott D. Johnston: Very safe. It's really hard to hurt yourself. It's not steep enough to hurt yourself. It's not flat enough to hurt yourself. Hill work early on, it's going to be either up hard, down easy, or it's going to be stair-based, or it's going to be incline trainer. There's no need to rip a single downhill yet. Agreed. Just not. Maybe I flow one downhill per session, but they're just going to be aerobic hills to start. And if I want to work hard, it's on the way up. Little things like that. Not reaching for anything that isn't worth it yet. High rock stuff. I don't need to do wall balls yet, but I can do thrusters or I can do front squat or I can really work on my push press.

1:00:13Scott D. Johnston: and maybe start working your deadlift back, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been lifting again. So the bad soreness of that is gone. And I feel comfortable moving to did some light three rep maxing the other day, not full out maxing, but just like spotter free three rep max kind of stuff. And numbers are to a point where I'm comfortable starting to work hard.

1:00:35Brakken Kraker: Well, I think the fact that we're having this conversation is very positive. Regardless. Yeah. All right. I'm going to ask you next week. We have a guest interview lined up later this week, but we'll talk next training Tuesday. And we'll talk about what we've done between our last episode and this one to kick things off. That's why I think we should start. So last thing. Yeah, because I got to run here in a minute.

1:00:53Scott D. Johnston: Would you do baseline metrics? I did lifting. I got some numbers down so that I can work off percentages. Would you do a scared straight 5K time trial or a one hour for distance or an aerobic threshold? or would you do any run metrics right now just to see? I would in six weeks.

1:01:13Brakken Kraker: I don't think you need to right now. Need to? No. Unless the prospect excites you. Otherwise, I would say build momentum for four to six weeks. And then I think a 5K time trial is exactly what you need to do. Yeah.

1:01:25Scott D. Johnston: Because I almost ran a 5K time trial on Saturday. Just to like, let's find out exactly how good or bad it is. So I am leaning towards maybe doing that.

1:01:36Brakken Kraker: I'm not against it at all. as long as you can separate from the result.

1:01:40Scott D. Johnston: Like it's not a deterrent, right? I haven't raced a 5K in like eight years. I think I'll be all right.

1:01:46Brakken Kraker: Okay. As long as there's not an emotional negative association with whatever the metric is, because it's not going to be where you want it to be eventually, then that's fine to do it right away. Otherwise, I'd give yourself, you know, four to six weeks.

1:01:56Scott D. Johnston: I'm okay with a little negativity. That always works well for motivation.

1:01:59Brakken Kraker: Yeah, it does, doesn't it? I mean, yeah, I'm not worried about it from an injury standpoint or a cart in front of the horse standpoint. It's more like, do you remember when we were both coming back? I was coming back from my two foot stress fractures. You were coming back from surgery and we both 5k time trial. I'm like our 11th run back or whatever it was. And it was horrible, but it honestly moved the needle for me. And it was, I felt like it was in that positive.

1:02:22Scott D. Johnston: It looks like it's about to storm outside. If it rains with no lightning, I might just go run one.

1:02:26Brakken Kraker: All right. Well, I have to go now. So you keep me posted if you do, but I think you had a lot of people back in your bracket. I think a lot of people want to see you on, on course. I think you have the buy-in of everybody's trust with your knowledge. None of it seems like it's a false front, I promise you. But I think you have a lot of people rooting for you way more than you know. Well, thank you for listening today. You need to fulfill some of these listeners' fantasies of you toeing a line and puffing your chest out

1:02:54Scott D. Johnston: and doing some things. That's what I think. All right, well, let's do that.

1:02:58Brakken Kraker: All right, let's do it.

1:03:06Scott D. Johnston: If anything resonated with you on today's episode and you're curious about taking your training to the next level, check out therunningpublic.com, where we have a training plan to fit your needs.