Training Tuesday: Answering Your Questions

0:08Welcome to the Running Public with Bracken Crocker and Kirk DeWint. It's Tuesday, folks, and you know what that means. Training Tuesday. We are going to take every rabbit hole, follow tangents, use useless metaphors, get lost in the weeds. This is Training Tuesday.

0:33When you're ready to take your training or racing to the next level, go to therunningpublic.com. We have both monthly subscription training plans,$19.99 a month. And Bracken and I both offer one-on-one customized coaching. Again, go to therunningpublic.com and check out our offerings. I've got my eight ounces of Coca-Cola here today for our recording, Bracken. You always know what that means. Well, it either means you did something big or you're wrecked. Sometimes it's both. I think I've mentioned it before, but I don't really drink soda. We call it soda here. I think you call it pop. Over there?

1:09I do not call it pop. Soda. Pop sounds flimsy. I like soda. But I think a lot of people call it pop. Maybe Minnesotans call it pop. Anyways, I usually give 8 to 12 ounces of a nice regular Coca-Cola after a quality session. That's one of my go-tos. So you know I had a quality session today. That's it. What did you have? I did two-mile bookends with just 8 by a quarter in the middle. So two-mile buy-in, eight-by-quarter, two-mile cash-out, which is pretty classic. You get the best of both worlds, right? That's a Kirk staple. Oh, but it builds such good fitness. It's just my, I think it's my favorite.

1:44If I had like one workout that I had to replicate where I felt like I got it all, it would be a version of that. Now we have an episode like this coming out later in the week. But the last time we talked about a question of you could only have one single workout, a quality session to do the rest of your life. I think at least one of us chose the split temple. split tempo of a variety or a buying cash out setup same thing it's the jack of all trades workout bang for your buck i just like i like the like if i were half marathon training i might do like a three mile buy-in quarters in the middle three mile i might extend it out but it's just like you build fatigue you force the legs to turn over and then you force some to sit in it on the cash out again and it's just like something you can't fake it teaches you energy management and you feel like you still get turnover with stay power it's just the best and that second tempo section is compromised very much so yeah which is a beautiful thing for endurance athletes to have to work from stride one to keep your stride nice so the question is for you what would you what would your rest setup be on this session so obviously i know what i already did so like you would do your two mile buy-in, how much rest, then how much rest between the quarters, and then how much rest again before your two mile.

3:08I'd be curious how you'd set it up. Two to three minutes between buy-in, quarters, and then quarters buy-out. Depending on how hard I'm running, it's 60 to 75 seconds on the quarters if I'm ripping them 90 seconds. yeah okay i took three minutes i've always been i've been airing on the side of more rest and faster running lately so i yeah so three minutes i took 90 seconds on the quarters just because i wanted to but yes that's the result pretty much a typical setup yeah i think the longest rest i've ever done on quarters is 400 jog recovery that's a lot of rest and that was how high school yeah probably college when it was like six by 400 with 400 jog and you looked at that and thought oh that's gonna be the worst mile and a half if you see a lot of rest you better be worried about the expectations of pacing on that session yeah other than that it's funny 200s i almost always do 200 jog recovery 400 is almost always 100 jog recovery different intent very much so yeah but funny how workouts work that way no only a sad thing we're gonna get to your training in a second too but i don't really know what i'm gonna do with any of this right now like this fitness stuff i don't know if i'm gonna race or time trial or i have nothing on the docket i'm not feeling super inspired to be honest to race anything but i yeah maybe because i shot some pretty big shots early in the year but i'm fit so i don't know what to do with it i'm trying to figure that out or if I'm just training right now to not lose fitness?

4:51Well, it is mentally kind of a frustrating place to be in, but physically that is a beautiful place to be, Kirk. Speaking from the shallow end of the fitness pool right now. Well, we do have a baseline metric for you. I don't know if you're going to want to share it. I'll share it. I'll share it. After our episode, I was feeling some fire in the belly. and later means never, which we've talked about. And I decided if I feel some urge to get a baseline metric right now, right now is the time to do it. As in today, in this moment, go do it. Yeah, not even just today. The warm-up has to start now.

5:40Because otherwise, kids are going to have practice, and then I've got to make dinner or whatever's happening. So I said, at least I'm going to head downstairs and warm up. I'm going to go do a 5K time trial. And she said, oh, really? Okay. I said, I'm not going to run too hard. I'm not going to bury myself. It's going to be bad, but it won't be a race. I'm not going to kill myself here. But I'm feeling like, she's like, yeah, okay, sure. Go ahead. Is that your alibi there, telling everybody you weren't going to kill yourself? She knows how these things can go. But I knew what I had been doing prior, which is in no way shape or form earned a real effort so it was going to be it was going to air on side of hard tempo more than time trial but either way it was going to be like definition doesn't matter it's just going to be run it hard for 5k don't kill yourself start slightly conservative and it'll probably still get really bad anyways that's probably yeah after we got done recording Racken text me listeners of course I'm talking to you I don't know maybe an hour afterwards and you shot me a plan like a like a training plan ish for the week I believe via text and then it was immediately after that I was on my way to work so I was with clients in the afternoon and then immediately like I'm gonna 5k I'm thinking of 5k time trial would you do it now or would you wait and I told you to wait actually but so I sent that as I was buckling my seat belt to start the truck up well I just didn't want to I didn't know what your schedule looked like or what you had going on on the docket so I fully didn't expect you to hit it And then you obviously, you hit it right away.

7:14You just said now or never. And so we did it. What did you learn? I learned A, that I'm getting older. And B, everything I've been feeling on the days where I say I felt better than I probably should is a very specific type of fitness. And I'm lacking a, oh, it's a global type of fitness. And I'm lacking a very specific type of fitness. low end threshold work does feel good bracket you go low end of your threshold and you don't breach it and you run you're working hard but you're comfortable i've even really been doing that kind of but that stuff is always like irregardless of pace like if you're sitting like the very low end of zone four it's like invigorating but approachable and you never feel fully wrecked and i feel like that's a good place to sit but if you race a 5k time trial correctly I don't know what your average heart rate was, but I'm living in the upper end of zone four and mostly zone five if I'm doing it right.

8:14Yeah. So when I've done this in the past and I've done a 5K time trial since I was 15 in some form or fashion, when I am out of shape, like when I say out of shape, I mean not anywhere near race fitness. depending on what that type of out of shape means i'm between 17 and 1750 for a 5k i think like 1744 1746 is what i ran on day nine that one time we did episode like we were both on day nine and i was 1740 something like that was about the and i ran one around that when i was coming back from knee surgery in the snow one day yeah on the cross-country course in my vj irox which how can you count that i mean as a you know but point is i've always been in the 17 somewhere when i'm out of shape that's my baseline fitness and i ran 1835 would do that surprise you yes and no what was on paper of what i've done this year says like you shouldn't break 19 probably like somewhere in there is where you should be but since i never do run slower than 1745 or so uh i did it was weird for it to finally happen uh you're also probably 10 plus pounds heavier than previous random out of six pounds heavier than my heaviest five kates time trial yeah so that's going to factor in but i'm also running to date like in this is now august 25th as we're talking i've run the least miles in a year i've ever run by far this is like i am the most out of shape as a runner I've ever been.

9:58But the time trial itself, Kirk, felt like nothing I've ever felt because it ended up being a true time trial, just like not race specific whatsoever. It was just running as fast as I could run. And it never got muscularly bad whatsoever. How about breathing? You're a breather. It was entirely cardiovascular. Just heavy, breathy, gasping at the end, I assume, audible. Never got to gasping. It was, if I would go any faster, it'd be like sick to my stomach, lungs heaving, and I could back down one tick of a stride and it was like threshold running. It was there or over. And there was never really anything other than muscular discomfort.

10:45It was very strange. I was a mile and a half run from where I parked to the start of this path. and my pace there and back was about the same without much difference in effort. After the hard 5K, my legs and everything was still fine. But if I wanted to pick it up, my heart rate would shoot right up. It was a very, very completely cardiovascularly limited front. I've never been in that spot before. I think that's a good thing. It was humbling, but it also showed movement-wise, I'm in fairly good fitness and strength-wise still fairly good fitness. But I can't sustain high output at something. Did that result feel like any version of a scared straight moment or no?

11:36In that this is how it happens. Like you just get to a point where it's a bridge too far. You've let it go too long. You're too old to come back by your old rules again. And yeah, yeah. Because the next time, let's say it's again next year, it's going to be 19 minutes and then suddenly it's going to be 21 and it when it starts to go then it keeps going it doesn't improve without input right so what were your uh mile splits oh i'm just wondering how you paced it like what it tells us i went right out fi 50 oh you did yeah okay yeah i wasn't trying to be here i just decided to run out what felt comfortably sustainable and it ended up not being super sustainable so you positive split slightly i think so yeah yeah which 554 six flat 605 yeah that's a painful way to run though i mean even though it was a slight you know slight decline you only lost like 10 seconds per mile between your first and your third um i know how that effort had to ramp up to do that so i think that was an honest effort is what I'm getting at.

12:43Yeah, it was weird. So it was, it's what I needed to know. But the interesting thing is I was running, I was doing a trail and hill run the other day, like a midweek long run. And I'd go up the ski hill and then I went down the backside, just flow it. And then there's this four or 500 meter grassy section before you get to the trail that wraps back down around and it's pancake flat. And I was running 530 to 550 along that each time, just trying to let my legs roll a little bit. And it just felt each time through there, it felt smooth and good. And then the moment I had to keep it, there was no ability to do that.

13:25I thought if I'm running on grass and trail shoes, 530 to 550 for four or 500 meters at a time after running up the ski hill, like that's pretty good. But there's nothing underneath that to back it up. Once you get past that five to seven minute mark of sustained output, if you're really trying to like, I know you didn't race the 5K, but let's call it that, there's just a point of no faking it. That state power, you either have it and you've sat in it long enough in training to be able to withstand or you haven't. Yeah. And you get burnt very quickly then. So this will be interesting and fun for me to progress because it's going to progress so much so quickly.

14:04But I had just been looking back through at someone's Strava. And whenever you pull up there, it shows the comparison to you and lifetime PRs and things like that. And in training, I forgot what it was. Statistics. Here, let's see. My 10-mile PR is from a 10-mile run where I was just running with a buddy. and it's essentially the same pace. Oh gosh, yeah. You know? Yeah, because I've never raced, on the roads I've never raced past 10K and on the trails, I don't think I've raced anything less than 10K but after 10K, the next shortest thing was probably half marathon on the trails. So like those are my 10 mile and 15K PRs but my 10 mile and 15K PRs are both the same pace.

14:54It's like 6, 6.0 and it's from a hard training run and now 6.0 or 5.59 or 5.58, whatever that effort was, was as fast as I could hold for three miles. With consistency, that would come around pretty quick. If you time trialed again in three weeks, barring consistent training, you'd chip away 20 seconds and then you would do that progressively until you had to start earning it a little bit more fairly. Yeah, and that's going to be the fun thing that this will just progress nicely and it'll be satisfying to bring it down. But yeah, this is the first time that the underneath no training fitness that's waiting has taken a deviation jump to the negative.

15:35And it's not rocket science. I'm 39. I'm on the wrong side of peak fitness and peak age for doing sport. So you asked, is this scared straight? Not scared straight, but it's like, this is the warning sign you've been looking for. That's a reality check, right? You had a feeling this is probably where you were at. Yeah. And so now you confirmed that. Yeah. That's all. But then I had a good day. Oh, go ahead. What were you going to say? No, you talk. Well, the next thing then on Friday, I did my next fitness test, which was for Ironstone, the 100K in July, which will be one of two races that I focus on.

16:18like my entire training for the next two next 11 months will be on one of two races depending on the time of year um the other is high rock chicago i just read just got in today for that it opened today and i got tickets yeah so that's february or what did you say what what did you get in for uh so single pro individual pro yeah yeah okay but so it'll once that's done in february the main, all I'll care about with my fitness is prepping for that. And so that one has the 21 mile rail trail buy-in where it's like one to 2 % downhill for 21 miles. And it's going to be 90 degrees and 90 % humidity and it starts in 2 PM.

17:03So my entire strategy for that will be to set a heart rate limiter and go as fast as possible, as easily as possible under that heart rate limit so that you finish that and think that was a long, hot warmup, and now it's time to get to work. So for me right now, I think that heart rate limit will be 140. And so I just, I went out and I ran half of that this weekend on a similar terrain. So I did 11 staying sub 140 heart rate just to see what is that pace right now and then start to try to think, okay, what can I plan for duration-wise 10 months from now in the heat so that I can start thinking about what do I have to carry and how resilient do I need to, all that kind of stuff.

17:49So I did that Friday and it went great for me. So how fast can you get at 140 BPM really? Yeah. So what pace, just through perspective, so you run a 5K time trial and 558 pace, heart Heart rate, heart rate, uh, irrelevant, right? Mm-hmm. Um, what pace could you hold at like 140 or under for? Average 757 for 11. Uh, and I, and I ran the whole thing in grass cause I wasn't ready for the beating of the path. So I ran off in the muck on the side of it. Okay. So it was mostly grass. Got it. So whatever you think that costs, call it 745 pace right now, maybe. and at 140 for me is the low end of zone 2 my zone 2 goes up to 158 I want to say what's your LT roughly LT is right now it's been anywhere from 161 to 164 I generally I think it's about 164 okay and my aerobic threshold is 158 to 160 you run lower heart rates than i do yeah yeah i'm consistently eight to ten lower than you i think yeah i think my threat lactate threshold is probably 173 but like my recovery runs i aim to keep them at 135 average or below this is essentially what it's going to be recovery run heart rate yeah so i picture you 145 146 how how fast could you be dead asleep at that that's which for you right now is 640, 650, I guess.

19:27If I'm a super shoe, 630. If I'm not, probably 645. Yeah, so I'm a minute off. I'm about a minute off of that right now. And the goal would be, again, get it as low as possible, but not searching for that, searching for doing no work. So that was encouraging to me, to average sub eight at what even in that moment felt like a win. Very little effort. Good. The effort came in the second half of just like remind myself, Like, keep your cadence up. Don't get sloppy. But that was never a chore. So that was encouraging. Well, guess what, back in what? You got better last week. I got better. Well, technically, you got better about 10 days from last week.

20:09But you understand. You got better last week. Doesn't that feel good? Grabbing it by the balls. Taking a little bit of control. I felt better than not doing that. Exactly. All right. anything else you want to talk about with that before we get into today no that was and thank you for everyone who reached out and said good for you for doing this and thank you to the few of you who reached out and said you're not gonna do it did anybody do that like in tongue in cheek yeah but there's some that's that's dipped in reality right some receipts to be kept yeah Yeah. All right. I told you. I think we're just going to make this a regular thing.

20:50I think we have to to keep up. And in a couple of our recent reviews on Apple podcast, a couple people said they really enjoy that we do frequent Q &As and it's their favorite part of what brings them back. and I said to Bracken before we decided to do another Q &A today, I said, Bracken, the amount of Q &As we are getting is almost maddening because I don't know if it's the self-fulfilling prophecy of doing more Q &As than reminding people to ask questions, but I got like seven yesterday alone. That's not hyperbole. It's like, what on earth is going on? And so people got questions and we got answers, I guess is what it comes down to.

21:27We had, I had the first meeting I had to go to for school starting back up. I don't think you've announced that. Oh, I'm going back to teaching.

21:40I don't think you've announced that, Bracken. Well, there it is. I'm teaching again this year. Not what I expected to have happened, but those kids got, they got inside. Why don't you actually, this I think is a worthwhile, quick, little, we're easily distractible. The way you explained it to me was actually, I very much understood why you chose to go back. And you explained it to me, I don't know, a few weeks ago, a month ago. Tell me why you decided to go back. Well, one, the kids started worming their way in. They just got inside. They get their little claws in there and it's hard to disengage.

22:17And I started towards the end of the year having this feeling like I was making a mistake, that I maybe shouldn't walk away. And it became very apparent that the bad upfront, everything was frustrating thing was not the case all year. But because I decided right from the start, this is it. I'm not doing a second year. It was just for this year. And the start was so difficult for me that I just decided that was like, that's it. And I never considered anything else. And so that was kind of like the header for everything. and by the in the end when I started to try to look at it objectively I realized like it's gotten better every quarter and fourth quarter is the worst everyone every teacher knows fourth quarter it's just herding cats and it's trying to you're everyone's tired of it and behaviors are on the rise and I had that was my easiest quarter it was my best quarter and it started to be apparent that like the hard work the buy-in process is done now we're seeing eye to eye and work can be done and I'm about to leave right at the time where that's done.

23:24Plus, if the goal ever was to give back and do something good for my community, why would I leave now right when I can start actually maybe affecting a little bit of change? And then the final piece is it's a three-hour-per-day position. So it's less than 40 % time, so they don't offer benefits. Who's going to take this job? Who are they possibly going to get to cover this thing that's going to be there to crush it? Not that I'm saying I'm crushing it, but how many people are they going to get who have a knowledge base and a passion for it and are like, no, I don't want benefits and I don't need more hours and I'm happy doing my own thing outside of this.

24:00It's such a small sample size they can even draw from to fill that position. And now that I know and care for the kid, now it mattered to me who they got in there next. And I was keeping an eye. My principal knew what he was doing and he was keeping me up to date on the hiring process. and they weren't getting any good nipples. So anyway, I'm back. Sounds like it was the right call. The way you told me about it was, you know, the beginning was difficult. I think you shared that a little bit on the podcast, but you worked so hard to gain their trust and then actually make headway with some of the students and then finally have the respect took a while to earn and you have relationships you want to come back to and keep fostering.

24:41And if you walk away now, you did literally nine months of sacrifice. for not. Yeah. And so you must go and continue the job. Yeah. And then I think the final piece is that, not I think, I know so many of these kids come from broken homes and their track record is adults in their life leave. Yeah. Specifically adult men bail. And I was just going to be another one doing the same thing to them. And now that we finally had this trust and this understanding, like pulling out the rug felt like I was failing them and doing it intentionally. So anyway, I think it's the right call. The intent now is to do this for a bit and see, see where we can take it.

25:33Well, I respect it. How that affects us is it, it means that we're going to be scratching for long episodes over the weekend. Again, we might get a recording schedule where we can do a little longer episodes on Tuesday maybe, but our back half of the week episodes are probably going to be pretty... They're all going to be around an hour, hour 15. What it is. So training Tuesday might become training Thursday and the long run Fridays might become a Tuesday episode in order to get more longer episodes, but we will figure it out. We will figure it out. And part of last year not being optimized on this is that it was always the same thing.

26:14This is temporary. Just get through the year and we're back to our thing. Now that this isn't just get through year and move on, then we'll have to optimize our efficiency. And that starts next week, right? Yeah. Next week's Tuesday is day one. All right. So that's what's coming. Are you ready to get to some questions? Yeah. So anyway, why I started that was today, my takeaway from one of the presentations today was that precision and brevity will outweigh just standing up there and lecturing. Okay. And now here we are with a Q &A where notoriously just I spend way too much time overanalyzing things.

26:54So the goal today is precision and brevity. When it almost took us 30 minutes to even start the Q &A, but not always, but like starting right now. Okay, I have a goal. All right, your goal is excellent. Let's aim for that. Also, by the way, so last time I'm going to say anything about this, I mostly promise, but our ratings and reviews have gone up and it's been awesome to see. And now we're just shy of 700 on Apple Podcasts. And I feel like that's a big number, like to breach 700. Even if you go on there and just give it a rating and don't write anything, I feel like there's very few podcasts that get over five or 600.

27:32And when I start to see 700 plus on podcasts I'm searching for, I'm like, they feel more verified to me, validated. And so we're so close. So even if you pause this right now and just went and hit one of the star buttons, you know, whatever one you deem we deserve. I would love that because it'd be so awesome to get about 700. All right. Done with that. You ready? Yes. Diane Miller. We've had her on the podcast. She told us that we were jerks that one episode. If you recall, I do. Excuse me. I work with Diane in the gym. We've been, we hit our 10 year anniversary. Is that your longest client? No, I got a couple a little longer.

28:14Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I do. But one of my longest, yes. Hey, Kirk, a couple of things. This is a question for the pod for Bracken. What is your take on the PT and barefoot running? I love my hokas. I love my hokas. All of them, like family. but I have had pain consistently from both of my knee surgeries, meniscus root repair and scar tissue, same knee tummins apart. And I know my gait changed after surgery. I could feel it. And with a little research, I found that an altered gait is often a by-product of a root repair surgery. I'm not totally sold on minimalist shoes, but she was convincing and knowledgeable.

28:50I'm thinking of giving it a try, but would want to return to my hocus eventually. What are your thoughts? Also, she said the way the shoe looks shouldn't matter at all, and I couldn't disagree more. Part of the fun of running shoes is the way they look. If I can't be fast, I can at least have cute shoes while I plod along. Dying. That should be a t-shirt. And yes, you are correct. Looks do matter for shoes and apparel. So this question is in relationship to Sariya Sabai, who I interviewed alone. You were gone. This is maybe a month, month and a half ago. and she basically completely was running in pain constantly.

29:32And her claim is that she ditched the shoes, started running barefoot, and now she's never been more healthy and pain-free. So this is in response to that episode, Diane's question, if you hadn't listened to it. I think that it's a fantastic tool. I think barefoot running, I think minimalist running, I think zero drop shoes. I think all of those fall under the great tools header. My issue with anything is that when something that is a tool becomes someone's whole thing, because very rarely is that best practice. When people have a program they're selling that's based around, I'm the barefoot person, or I am the zero drop person, or I am the whatever your thing is.

30:16When the thing becomes the whole program, that's where I think people have lost the real track that you're supposed to be on. So I've talked about it on here, but I've had blocks of training where I intentionally include barefoot running or minimalistic running in my program. When I feel like I've lost cadence, when I feel like my feet have lost resiliency, when my ankles feel weak. There was a time, this was actually back when I was teaching. this would have been 2013, I was going to the local high school three times per week in the morning and getting 20 to 30 minutes in of barefoot or racing flat running.

30:52I'd run barefoot until my feet felt ready to move on. And then I'd put on my most minimalistic racing flats back in the day when that was a thing, a minimalist racing flat. And then I'd finish out the half hour with that. Just zone one, tap, tap, tap, light little steps. I think they're great tools. I just think that maybe one out of 100 people needs to make it their entire thing because it's the key to fixing something wrong with them. And even then, usually you can shift back to normal over time. So yeah, bring it in, but don't get rid of the hokas. Don't get rid of anything ever. Keep everything in the mix, but just use little tools.

31:29Yeah, my advice to her was dose it very small in the beginning because you don't know what's going to happen when you makes it that's a pretty start to go from a hoka to barefoot is it's quite the contrast yeah and it's go to the local soccer fields or go to the infield of the track where we got some long plush consistent grass and terrain and start small she's at the very beginning of implementing a run walk program so she's starting from ground zero and it's a great time to do it oh it's like yeah go to your soccer field complex and 30 seconds on two minutes off and maybe do that for a half an hour and small dose it early.

32:07Prove to yourself that it is one, a good move and two, you can handle it. And then you can start to experiment a little more, but it would be small dosing at first, especially with her who she's at zero miles a week. She's just starting up trying to kick the pain. But I would, even if you're running a whole bunch, I would still say soft ground, consistent terrain and very small doses to start. Yeah, I don't see a need to do more than 10 minutes of cumulative time barefoot or minimalistic. in any session week one and then move up minutes minute by minute from there yeah all right let's go to the next question remember concise so i think we did that we don't need to ramble correct robert says uh it's a slightly longer one but uh maybe a question for the q a i have been doing your training plan for over a year and it's great plan sync to watch and it beeps at me when it's time to change pace.

33:01I recently added the strength training. I'm struggling with working this in effectively. I currently use J fit for weight room work. J E F I T. Are you familiar with that? No. J fit. Okay. Me either. It keeps track of how much weight I use last. Is there any companion app that syncs with strength training? I'm currently wasting most of my weight room time building the prescribed workout in Jeff it. If there's not a good app for keeping track of this, would it be possible to get the blueprints to the strength training plans? This would allow me to waste a day or two adding everything to J-fit. J-fit.

33:37J-fit. Then, when you subscribe, pull 1.2, I can select that and go right into my workout. And then, yes, okay. Oh, and then he says, thanks again for all you guys do. My A-race, World's Toughest Mudder. The last two years has been great, thanks to your program. I'm sure adding strength training will be the cherry on top. Uh, this will sound inconsiderate and I don't mean it that way. It's not your problem? At the price point, it's not our problem. Now, that's a terrible statement to make because it is our problem. But you said it, you can't put that cap back in the bag. Right. For$5.99 a month, we don't have the ability to give you the work ahead of time.

34:20Because if we do it for one person, we have to do it for everyone who reaches out. And the answer to everyone who reaches out is, I'm sorry, this isn't one-on-one coaching. You unfortunately don't get access to us for$6 a month. So that's the bad answer. The good side of that is, maybe not of that, but of not having your strength training preloaded into your watches. I'm not a believer that that's how strength training should go. I think you should have to think about your strength training. I think you write that in a notebook. If there's any place that you should be writing something in a notebook, it's old school in the weight room.

34:55That's the notebook. That's the only way. Yeah. Because it's too easy to click a watch and say it's done, it's complete and move on and not take into account the ramifications of what you just did. But if you finish a set and you immediately have to sit down there with your hands shaking, trying to control your handwriting and say, that was a set of five at 185 and I really fought for that last one. That cements that in your mind, how that went. And the next time you get there, you're going to remember, I struggle on my run the next day and now I need to back off. I just think there's power and importance to your training to be precise with your strength training, how it felt, when you were reaching, when you weren't.

35:42Watch, it's easy to look at. It's going to record your heart rate. It's going to record your pace and you're going to remember it pretty well, but strength training, I think you need to write down exactly how it's going because that needs to be changed in a day-by-day case and basis to make sure it doesn't impact your running. So my take is, even if I could, I wouldn't preload my strength work into my watch because I don't want to. I want to have to open up my notebook and look at it and move on to the next thing and write down what's happening. I don't know much to add to that because I agree fully with everything you said and I also am going to back you on the price point thing.

36:17Secondly, I don't know about you, but my phone's on me at all times. I am constantly checking it because I'm being buzzed all the time. There's two times in my life when that thing is not glued to me and it is when I'm running and when I am strength training. I'm the only guy in the gym. My phone stays in my bag. I go do my workout. I am disconnected from all the bull crap. And having to pick up my phone and log in it while I'm doing something, like I know myself well enough, it's the only times I get away from my tech is when I set the side of time for me to do my workouts. Don't touch it when I'm strength training.

36:54Don't touch it when I'm running. That's for influencers, maybe. And I think you shouldn't be that person. So use the notebook. That's it. Okay. Shall we move on? Yes. Cool. So, Steph. Steph says, idea for the pod. A treadmill buying guide. Best overall option. Best option under$1 ,000. Best option under$500 for folks on a budget. And tips for buying from Facebook Marketplace, etc. I am so lost. Laughy face. We should do that. I agree. I can't do it right now. I cannot be brief and precise on this. but I can give you 30 to 40 minutes of just gold for treadmill buying tips. Do you want to push this?

37:38Sorry if we're not getting to it right away, but do you want to push this one off and actually do a real deep dive? I do, yeah. But should I give 30 seconds if you're right now today looking to buy? Uh-huh. Do not buy something where you can't test it first. Yeah. unless it is such a good deal that if it doesn't work you can still turn around and sell it and be fine yeah uh you have to check it running while it's running for belt slip make sure that the screen works and make sure that things aren't creaking all over the place or cracked or you have to you have to test it out at pace you have to get it all the way up to whatever pace you could ever possibly want to use full incline decline if it does that and if the machine allows is you have to go in and see what the cumulative hours on the machine are.

38:27Almost all of them have a way to look at that. Google the model that you have and how to check lifetime hours. Every person who messaged me about a NordicTrack incline trainer for sale, the first thing I say is take it all the way up to 40 % and down to 6%, see what it does, and go into the system and see how many hours it has on it. And that's the first two things you have to do with a treadmill. I also really want to know where it's been kept. because if it's in a garage environment, which mine is now, the humidity on and off, the electric systems are what go on those things. And if your treadmill isn't indoors in a controlled environment, you're going to notice that the electric side of things tends to go, especially with the humidity and mix over time, it feels like.

39:13Treadmills actually do very well and electronics do very well in cold, dry conditions, and they do not do very well in hot, damp conditions. and so I'd be like, where have you kept it for its life? That would matter to me too. Also, for$500 or$1 ,000, you're asking what to look for. No new treadmill that costs less than$1 ,000 is worth your time, so you're going to have to look used. If you're buying a new treadmill for$1 ,000,$900, that ain't a tool you want to use or rely on for your training. So you're exclusively looking in a used category, in my opinion. I'm going to disagree with you, but I'm going to save it for the episode.

39:48There are a few in the$700 to$900 range that come from big box stores and will have warranties that I would purchase. Really? Yeah. Like, Sol has one or two. Do they? Under$1 ,000? Yeah. It's not the one I would choose, but I could choose it and get through a training block if it had the warranty in my back pocket to give me comfort. But 90 % of the time, you are absolutely right. So, yeah, it's going to be Facebook Marketplace. But you can find real gems there. I'm not walking it back. I'm standing by that one. All right. Which is fine. You're going to enjoy this one. I'll be curious what you say.

40:24Because this is, okay, this young man is dreaming big, bracket. And boy, do we love a guy who's always dreaming big. This is Liam. Liam writes in to the website. I am a 14-year-old male with a 5K PB of about 19 minutes. I train five times a week with an interval training session of 1x5K interval repeats. Uh, what's that? That can't be correct. That's what he wrote. But, uh, maybe probably five by one K interval repeats at about three 45 per kilometer. And then a tempo five K run. And the rest is easy runs. I run about 35 KM a week and I want to make it to the Olympics for the five K running. He says, do you think that is a possible for me to do?

41:09And if it is, what can I do to get there? He's dreaming. I will never tell anyone that it's impossible to make to the Olympics because we have too many stories of random people with smoking and drinking habits in their 20s or 30s picking up sport and making it to the Olympics. We have a Canadian marathoner right now, I believe, who is a similar story to that. It's possible. I don't know your backstory. If you are prepubescent at 14 and that is your PR, you have a much higher chance than if you have already gone through puberty and you've been running your 35K for a while and that's your PR. But we don't know.

41:49But your goal is going to, it has to be, to just train as well and sustainably as possible for the next 10 years and reassess. Nothing along the way is going to tell you yes or no until you've got that. That'll put you at 24. You'll be in the prime of your life. And if you're minutes off, you'll know. And if you're not minutes off, you'll know. What can he do to get there, he asks. Stay healthy. String training blocks together for 10 years. Yeah, that's hard to fathom as 14-year-old. Like, hey, you got to double your lifetime and continue to do this. I mean, you'll find out. You've made it this far.

42:34Do it all again for the next 14 years. Well, let me tell you this, Liam. So if you're running 19 minutes, first of all, there's a pretty big difference between 19 flat and 1959, in my opinion. But we'll leave that out of this conversation. You are too young to know. However, you are ahead of the bell curve with running 19 minutes as, what, an eighth grader? Maybe going into ninth grade. You are ahead of the bell curve, notably for your age, in my opinion. I ran 1936 as a freshman. Yeah. Something like that. 14 and 15 right yeah i ran 1704 almost oh i know and it wasn't a fluke i ran 1705 1713 anyways um so we don't know yet and i think that's going to back up what you're saying but there's only one answer and it's keep showing up and keep showing up i will tell you you will know you'll have a better idea of your ceiling after you completely kind of work your way through puberty, like by the time you reach 18, Liam, you're gonna have a much better idea where your ceiling is and you're going to know so much more.

43:41But like you're in the development phases. And as you go through, I mean, I bet remember back to my freshman, sophomore, in particular years of high school, you know, my stature, I was light and tiny and I grew into my body. And luckily my times came along with it. And so where you're at in development matters quite a bit as well. So you'll know a lot more in a few years, but the answer isn't to stop training. The answer is to keep showing up. And I would say, what's 35K a year? Six to 20 miles a week, roughly 20 to 25 miles. I would say if you're, if you're taking this seriously and you can stay healthy, I would work your way up to roughly 40 miles a week over the next two to three years.

44:20What is that in kilometers? You tell me 60, 70K, 65K, double your mileage roughly and do it slowly. And I think you have a fighting chance at running really well in a 5k if you can get up to that relative mileage. Yeah, my caution to you would be twofold. The first would be not to put any amount of emphasis on any one thing you do along the way. Each race can't be a, oh, this means I can't make it to the Olympics or I won this race. I'm going to go to the Olympics. It's got to be long-term approach. Second is, unless you do really well with really specific goals, I wouldn't get too hung up on the 5k right now.

44:57If your goal is to be an Olympic runner, focus on being a great runner. Your best event is not known to you right now. It might be the marathon. You might be a 100 meter dash guy. You just really, you don't know yet. And you can't know at all until you're through puberty. So keep your eyes focused, but focused wide and just fall in love with the sport. I very much agree. We're going to go to the next one, Liam. Keep listening. Maybe that'll help. Jordan. Jordan asks, hey guys, thanks for answering my long-winded question about OCR training. This one is more for Bracken. The style of runner you are parallels a lot of my own experiences.

45:38I've always been a bit more twitchy. I was a mid-distance guy in school and always excelled in stadium sprint races, as well as shorter trail events where I can routinely change up terrain and stride. Higher volume and mileage has been achievable, but never feels great. And the few

46:12I always felt fairly fatigued and beat up by high volume training. And compared to the real high volume people, I wasn't. I mean, high volume for me was 70 some miles and 10 to 20 ,000 feet of vert. Those are good, not great numbers. It's a lot of volume. It's a lot of volume, but it's not high volume for an elite runner. I mean, if you put that on flat ground, it's 80 plus miles a week. If you account for the vert, that's not... I still stand by that. That's not high volume for an elite runner. For a 5k, it is. I don't think that would be considered high. Okay, we'll continue. Anyway, point is, I was like, if high volume was a thing, I was at the, again, I was in the kiddie pool of high volume.

46:59But I always felt pretty beat up by it. But I started to feel better on high volume when I slowed up my easy days. But as a mid-distance person, it's also important to find the sweet spot of your stride. Because long-distance athletes tend to run their same stride more consistently across all paces. and shorter distance athletes do not. And there are certain paces that, albeit slower, may beat you up more because you're running differently. So actually finding out how to run smoothly at slower paces was really important for me. But I think the key was, if you can't handle big volume, you replace it with more vert.

47:46That was the thing that made me feel most prepared for long races. I think the more mid-distance you are, the better you have to get at fueling. I think that's a cheat code if there is such a thing. People who are good at using glycogen burn through glycogen. So mid-distance guys are good at using glycogen, but you're going to burn through it and you are going to be dependent upon refueling that. So I'd say get good at hill vert and get good at fueling and that will instantly level up your long-distance racing. Yeah, the vert hack is very real. Very, very real. And if you're fast twitch, maybe you carry a little more muscle.

48:20And so you have a little more impact because you're a little heavier. And so the vert is just such a hack. I think because I don't necessarily maybe people look at me this way, like I'm some like like I'm durable and ultra and all of this. But that does not come naturally to me. I still want to run short and fast. I feel best invigorated and less beat up when I go short and fast than I do if I'm going and grinding. Nothing sucks the life out of me more than an ultra training block and a three hour long run on a Saturday. Okay. Yeah. And I don't feel great on bigger mileage either necessarily. But what I do know is that the sunburn theory so applies here in the sense that like if you're not running long often and then you go run long every even if it's only every two weeks or three weeks.

49:07like the repetitive exposure to the stimulus. Like you're going to get burnt every time you go out in the sun if you only go out in the sun every two or three weeks. And so it's almost like a kind of an F around and find out. Like sometimes you do have to shove it down your own throat and say, I'm just going to show up and I'm going to do three miles every day or every other day and eventually work it to four and then to five and whatever your progression is. But I do find like the body generally comes around, but it has to be frequent exposure. You have to be in your shoes a lot and eventually like the sun doesn't burn you as bad.

49:38You go outside every day, you can tolerate it longer and longer. But if you're a three day a week runner and you're not cross training between or you run three to five miles during the week and then attempt to go long on the weekends, you might not be going out in the sun enough. And so you often have a big repercussion from your bigger efforts. And so the showing up often, putting your running shoes on often and littering in bigger efforts, maybe you do a bigger midweek long run and a long run and amp up your recovery in quotes run days. I just think the sunburn theory really applies to tolerating volume.

50:08I just really do. And the consistency with it. And yes, of course you should feel beat up because you're putting a lot of output out there. But there's a difference between systemic fatigue, like from efforts, and then structural breakdown due to pain. And I'm guessing this guy's just feeling tired. And so from what I'm gathering, so I think the sunburn theory applies when it comes to building tolerance to longer stuff. I don't have anything more to add to that. That's good. I agree with that. But I got a message the last time I said something about this. about what my training volume was. And they said, I don't, they basically said, I'm calling BS on you ever hitting 20 ,000 feet of vert in a week.

50:44So not that I feel the need to defend myself. Sounds like it. No, but to show you how quickly that can add up if you live in the right place or do intentional vert, I was going to the incline twice per week most weeks. That's 2 ,100 feet of vert every time you run it. So now you're over 4 ,000 in two runs that are 60 minute runs. Every one of my easy to recovery runs was between 900 and 1100 feet of vert. Did that five times per week because I was doubling five days per week. So now you're at another 5 ,500. So now you're at 9 ,600 feet and you haven't touched any of your main sessions yet. So that's how it adds up.

51:24You have hilly doubles and you have solely vert based finishers to two of your sessions per week. now you had a four to five thousand foot long run in the mountains because you live in the rockies and now you're already at 14 000 feet for the week and you haven't touched any of your quality sessions other than a long run yet so anyway just want to show like that's not big volume for people who are running mountains it's very doable especially if you have the incline in pike's peak my peak weeks training for like superior were 10 000 feet and that was gotten between a long run and a quality uphill session and then a slight vert on everything else in between.

52:03I mean, they were big sessions. Don't get me wrong. All right. Looking at the clock, we got time for one. You can do it. You can build big volume of vert without running 100 mile weeks. Yeah. Oh, for sure. All right. Nicole asks, we got time for one, maybe two more questions. We'll see here. Hey guys, I'm a longtime listener and love the podcast. I've learned so much from you guys and have laughed a lot too. I know you've talked about fueling in the past, but thought this may be a good Q &A question. My 17-year-old son, Aiden, is training for a half marathon this October. It will be his second half.

52:35He's looking to beat his time from last year, 127. How many grams of carbs should he be taking in during that time? Last year, he didn't eat much at all. I've been encouraging him to eat different things during his training runs to see what works best for him. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Good news is, if you had to, you could get away with nothing. I agree. Which you shouldn't do. I also agree. And it's short because you can get away with nothing. It's short enough you do not need high carb fueling for a half marathon. It's at a high enough intensity that you probably don't most people don't want high carb fueling and you're playing with fire if you're doing it.

53:14I don't, you can't even do the grams per hour really. It's just how many times are you going to dose it? Take 25 grams at 30 and 60 minutes and be done. Yeah. take one hour's worth of fuel yeah and sip it starting at 30 minutes in if that's another way to do it but you don't need much I think you should drink it at that intensity I mean I would shake if I was 17 at the time I would take two gels I would shake it up in a 10 ounce water bottle and put it in a hip flask and I would what take a sip every 2k roughly sure starting at 5K or 10K or something. Anyway, I wouldn't overcomplicate it. Like you say, you could take a gel at what?

54:006 and 10. Yeah, 30 minutes and 60 minutes and be done with it. He's good. He's fairly quick. He's under a 90-minute half marathoner. I find if I don't fuel, my bottom drops out somewhere around 75 to 80 minutes. Yep. If I'm running pretty hard. But this is just an insurance policy, really. Taking the fuel on this is like, we should have enough glycogen stores for us to get through this. and it may not negatively impact your training if you don't fuel. And I know people are going to be screaming at me right now as I say that. However, I think the insurance policy is just put something small dosed in your system.

54:34A couple of times, you're going to be just fine. Can you be 40 in 60 minutes? Sure. We don't have to, like you like to say, threading the needle. We don't have to thread the needle on this. You don't need a lot. Yeah. But I would say like the insurance policy is you're working hard. I would rather like if I were running a race that's 90 minutes, I would be now as an insurance policy taking I'd be taking fuel at 30 and 60 minutes. Could I race as well if I don't? Maybe, but I don't have to ask that question. So taking it. All right. This next question. For the record, I will fuel everything over 60 minutes at this point.

55:08Okay. I don't. I haven't been feeling on training runs unless I'm going longer than like 90. I meant races. Okay. But even like best practice, I would probably fuel all quality sessions now. I'm fully flipped to the side of like why would I ever keep myself under fuel right I think we got to cut it here because this next question it's a good question but it's going to take us longer than the three to four minutes that we have left before we need to go I think we're going to leave it there if that's okay with you I have one thing to say Kirk just one thing to say that's shocking that I want to button down with is based off our last episode okay I think I need to put it out there that I don't support the message from the second half of that episode.

55:52Which one? The episode of I almost died running through Death Valley and it was worth it if I die and that's the only way to live is go after things and that's the mission. That's not the mission. That's not the mission. That is a self-chosen pursuit. We do not need to get so deep into our self-chosen pursuits that we risk our loved one's happiness. You're free to do what you want with yourself, but when you have others beholden to you, that's where I draw the line. I'm not asking you to confirm what I'm saying. I'm putting my own feelings out into the world, but to me, he felt like he was getting into some pretty irresponsible territory, and I just want to make sure that even though we put the episode out, you know that I don't stand by the last part of that episode.

56:38Our job is to interview the people and let them talk. Yeah. Right? I pushed back a little and then we ran out of time. But I just wanted, I didn't, I did not like that message. I understand he's trying to sell books and be a speaker and you've got to glorify and amplify everything you do. But the two phrases, one, it would have been worth it and two, well, that's the job, that's the mission. No, that's not your job and that's not, we're not first responders. We're not war fighters. We're hobbyists. Your hobby shouldn't kill you if you have a wife and kids. I'm going to have to agree with you on that, Bracken.

57:13Okay. For the sake of brevity, we can leave it there. I enjoyed the first half of that conversation a lot, but don't go thinking we need to Goggins everything times two in this world. Yeah, I don't think you should be sacrificing your true long-term health or short-term health for any sort of athletic pursuit for sure. So I'll back you on that. And we got a cool episode coming later this week. We're going to give you straight up some workouts that you're going to want to hit. It's going to be one like grab a piece of paper and a pencil because we're going to fill your workout cash with some sweet stuff later this week.

57:51So that's what's next. We haven't done a good old-fashioned nuts and bolts workout session episode in a bit. It's coming your way. If anything resonated with you on today's episode and you're curious about taking your training to the next level, check out therunningpublic.com. where we have a training plan to fit your needs.