Training Tuesday: Running Economy

0:08Welcome to the Running Public with Bracken Crocker and Kirk DeWint. It's Tuesday, folks, and you know what that means. Training Tuesday. We are going to take every rabbit hole, follow tangents, use useless metaphors, get lost in the weeds. This is Training Tuesday.

0:33When you're ready to take your training or racing to the next level, go to therunningpublic.com. We have both monthly subscription training plans,$19.99 a month, and Bracken and I both offer one-on-one customized coaching. Again, go to therunningpublic.com and check out our offerings. I got a question for you right off the top. Do it. What is your rhyme and or reasoning behind what shoes end up on your wall every week? My assumption is you accidentally knock one off, and then there's a pile of them on the floor underneath, which the viewer would never see. and you just pick up another one, a different one, and put it back up on the wall after one has been knocked off.

1:13But am I wrong? You're not wrong. There's multiple rhymes and reasons. That's one, is that occasionally one gets knocked off. Only the super shoes that are really wide and split design have a hard time staying on there. Alpha Fly has a hard time staying on there. I would say the Puma Fast Rs have a hard time staying on there. Things that with an atypical shape to the bottom have a hard time staying up. So if those fall, sometimes I just replace them. The most prevalent reason would be that I grab a shoe to go use it in a workout. And then when I leave it downstairs on the shoe dryer and the rack in the basement, and then I just put a different one up.

1:59But occasionally, there's a theme for an episode. Most often on Race Brain, I'll put up all one type of shoe. Sometimes on here, if it's ultra, I'll put all ultra shoes up. Well, I haven't seen the Metaspeeds on your wall hardly at all. And so that's what caught my eye. And it makes sense. That's a narrow shoe. So that probably does not fall off the wall. But it looks like you have both the Sky Paris and Tokyo up there, maybe? Both Tokyo. Okay. Edge and Sky. This is new. This arrived on Friday. Okay. Anyways, you don't display the Asics very much, I've noticed. I only have one pair. You stay away.

2:40Okay. I only have one pair of Asics, and they were one of the first super shoes I ever bought. And they're just not always in sight here. But these are my two newest additions. and they're interesting because when they first came out, the first version of the Sky, I loved. It was made for me. Super stable. And the Edge was super tippy and really harsh on your legs. Very fast if it worked for you, but it really beat your legs up. The plate, the foam, everything. And they have kind of swapped over the years where now the Sky is the firmest ride and the least forgiving and the edge is a softer feel when you run in it.

3:23I don't know if I've run in a more firm shoe than this guy. Yeah, now the edge is softer. It is so firm. It's very weird. Okay. Well, we don't need to spend too much time on shoes, but I'm just noticing there's always a few plugged and played behind you. And the Prodigio Pro seems to be a staple and Alphas seem to be a staple, but then the other ones seem to be a staple. Don't Prodigio Pro. What am I? Oh, that's a New Balance Super Comp. RC Elite 1. RC Elite. Because the Prodigio has the exact same color scheme. I don't know if you're aware, but yours anyways, mine does. All right, let's move on.

3:54What are we talking about today? What's new? What's going on? Uh, well, first of all, do you have a best workout you did last week? Uh, yeah, yeah. I had a great session, great long run session. So what was it? Um, I did a classic I used to do years ago, um, and felt pretty good about it. Um, well I did a 1200 and 400 workout, which went very well, but that's not the one I'm going to outline. Um, I did a broken tempo long run, three miles on mile off, two miles on mile off, mile on. So six miles of quality, uh, but a whole mile in between at like, I'm not going to call it float effort, but there was purpose to it.

4:35Yeah. Do, do you run that one at like an easy run pace or recovery run pace? Uh, I'm going to say, uh, easy run pace. Cause I was running like six 40 for my off mile. Yeah. Um, so easy run pace, not like I'm recovering from anything, but, um, it's real simple. Two mile warmup, do some 30 thirties and within that warmup and then three mile on tempo, roughly half marathon pace, um, to marathon pace. And then a mile off two miles back on definitely at half marathon pace or faster. And then the last mile, see what's left in the tank. And I ran 501 for my last mile after all that work. Okay. And I felt in control.

5:15So I think I went 535s for the three, 523 for the two, and then 501 for the last one. I just felt really productive and in control. We have these cooler mornings now. And it's funny how the heart rate responds. It's like a free five beat per minute buffer you didn't used to have in the summer. And so I felt productive. You can't fake stay power work. And so that was a good session. So three, two, one. You know how many people are going to be mad that you closed in 501 feeling in control? I reached. For two reasons. I got to 800 of that mile and I was at like 513 pace. And I was like, I still feel really good.

5:52I'm going to try to see if I can't close. And I said I missed it. But then I worked. Then I didn't feel in control that last second. Anyways, what about you? Well, I actually am going to go in a different route. I'm not choosing my best run workout. I'm just going to choose the best, most encouraging stimulus I had. I did a competition on Saturday, Kirk. Oh my gosh. Where did I see something about this? I posted it on Instagram. Something? World's ending. I posted like two or three times in the last month. Are you okay? I've just turned it into a social media influencer, Kirk. Oh my goodness. I must not have paid this enough viewing service, but I'm forgetting what it was.

6:32Fill me in. I did the Red Bull Rush delivery. Oh, yeah. You were jumping off and on boats or something. Some crap. Yeah. So, back story. Lake Geneva, Wisconsin is famous for being this, I think it's the only town in the world that does all of their lake mail is delivered solely by boat. So, you can get down to each property from the road, but some of them have like on the far side of the lake, you might drive more than a mile to get to the house. So they send a mail boat around each day. But to make it efficient, they have mail runners and they start at the bow of the boat. And as the captain slows down to three miles per hour, as they get to the dock and they jump off, sprint down, drop the mail off and sprint back and have to get back on to this little rail ledge they have before the boat passes them.

7:32And it's also a tourist attraction. They sell tickets to it. So people go on the boat and they watch the mail get delivered. And you also get a tour of the lake and the million dollar homes. And it's a thing they've had for decades. That's lovely. And really oddly endearing that something like that exists in this crazy, awful world that we live in. That just seems so wholesome. All right. It's wholesome. It's a spectacle. People love watching it. They get a tour, but they also love Like, what if they don't make it back in time? Then they're in the pond. Like, it's, so it's great. Anyway, Red Bull does their real competitions and then they do their spectacle competitions like the Flugtag or Rampage or whatever.

8:10They did one here where it's a competitive version of mail delivery. So they took the actual boat and they put piers in the water and then they just ran a knockout style competition where you were timed doing this. just leap off the boat 35 feet away it was a mailbox you had to deliver a piece of mail the mailbox had to shut and then you had to be back on and it was chip timed like it was it was wild and so jeff barton who was the stadium announcer for spartan race but also did things outside of that is one of red bull's live event commentators and he was doing this one and he reached out he's like this is in your wife's hometown you should i i can get you in let's do this.

8:54I was like, absolutely, I'll do this. So I did that on Saturday and these are four and five second bursts. And I made it through the entire thing without hurting myself and I'm not excessively sore this week. So I'm marking that as the best sign of health that I could have. I can't believe, I think I meant, I might've been like doom scrolling right before bed or something and saw it and I didn't want to message you and then it must've left my brain. um so so how is the format of this so you is it a one-time time like a quick like within like hundredths or thousands of seconds difference between fast and slower is it multiple attempt average or what was it so it was going to be more of a tournament style but we got weather so it rained all morning and then they had a gap so what they did is all 40 competitors ran and they took the top 10 times to the finals.

9:49And then in the finals, you did one route on doc A and one on doc B. And on A, you just delivered a mail slightly farther, but there was like impediments in your way. And then on doc B, you delivered a package and then picked up mail and then ran back. So it was the combination of those two times was your final score. So like qualifying, top time was like 4.48 and then it was like 4.62 and then 4.82, 4.82, 4.83, 4.84, 4. It was hundredths and tenths deciding it. Okay. So then they just all, the last 10 got a run at both total time and that was it. Whoever won one, but based on time. Yeah. And so the first round was a little slippery because it had been raining all morning, but it stopped.

10:36But then after the first two pairings went of the final, the rain started. And I was the third pairing. So the first four people ended up going one through four because they got one dry dock run. So that's my post-race excuse. Reality is I wasn't going to win it anyway, but I took fifth. So I was the fastest of the rest. For this? Like people came in from like out of state? Their athletes did. So they brought in a free runner, a ninja warrior, a parkour guy. Interspersed amongst the competition, they'd go down and do flips and stuff on the dock and come back. And they put on the show and the rest of us competed.

11:20And you're just like, trust me, I can dunk. I'm flexing on you guys. Just trust me. Yeah, it was... Well, it made it real simple for the rest of us because no one thought of showing off because the ninja people were so impressive. if you weren't going to top it. So you just, you just booked it. What a circus. All right. So it's like clown show competition. That's wonderful. Yeah. It was absolutely wonderful. It was for sure. So two questions then is the most important is what shoe did you choose for this? Right? I've got seven shoes. Oh God. Well, that also doesn't surprise me. So what shoe did you pick?

11:56And then what if you wore like studded cross country spikes? Those are probably not allowed. What shoe? and then what was your warm-up for this event? Well, okay. So this is like anyone who's ever done anything that's combined with TV, warm-up is just a crapshoot. Yep. Because you just sit in a holding area. We didn't know our order in prelims. So we were on the boat for two and a half hours while all 40 people, because you had to make a loop. The boat went past the docks and then had to loop back around and set up for the next run. But cameras had to be ready. And if someone missed the boat and fell off, Then you had to wait while the water safety crew went out and picked them up and returned them to the boat and all of that.

12:36And they had these fancy life jackets that inflate when you hit the water so that they're not in the way while you're competing, but then they work. And then they had to reset the cartridges in there. So it took hours. So I was on the boat for like an hour 45 before I went. So I warmed up in the morning and then I warmed up again on the dock and then just tried to do like micro mini constant movements while you're waiting without fatiguing yourself so that it was your turn. And then you got called down to suit up when you were like three runs away. So then you have like six minutes. And then it was just like overdrive as much as you could do.

13:16But on the bottom floor of the boat where we took off from, inside of it, if I went up on my tiptoes, my head touched the ceiling. So you weren't doing a lot of movements to get ready. So it was challenging. Sounds like it. Yeah. I would have wore like big old sweatshirts, sweatpants, like stocking cap. And okay. And just to get overheated, like just to be warm in it, doing body weight squats, some calisthenic type stuff in there and just be like, I'm kind of sweating right now underneath all this. And then just get out and see what your body has. Yeah, that's what I did. High knees, butt kicks, like the traditional crap you could do in place.

13:54Yeah. Okay, well, that's fun. Good on you. Just putting your nose in there. So I brought two different pairs of VJs for the rubber grip on the dock. Yeah. And I brought a pair of Salomon racers that's just really light but low studs that would disperse water a little better. I brought a pair of this one, a Saucony Sinister, just a stripped down racing flat that's just like locked to my foot. but has some tread on it. And then my wildcard backup shoe was my Nike Kobe basketball shoes, the lightest model, the Mamba mentality, because they have phenomenal traction, and they're relatively light. For basketball shoes, they're very light and flexible and low.

14:36And I ended up competing in those. Really? Yeah, because once the docks were wet, any shoe that just had solid rubber, the water is just underneath it, and you hydroplane. So even the VJ rubber on the painted wet dock had no grip. So I went with the thing that had the most channels on the bottom for water to be dispersed. And it worked out well enough? As good as it. I switched to a running shoe for one round and it was worse. So I went back to the Kobe's. You were definitely the only one in basketball shoes. Yeah, but there were a couple of people in like tennis court shoes and they did well.

15:11Oh, sure. Bust out the pickleball shoes. Yeah. All right. Well, that's fun. That makes me happy to hear. We need to move on from this, but would you have won money? Can I watch this anywhere? $1 ,500 for first, which we didn't know until the end. They're like, and now competing for over$1 ,000. We all looked at it like, really? Shoot. Where can we view this eventually? It'll probably only be on a Red Bull TV. It's got to be on their YouTube eventually or something, right? Maybe. I mean, the lowlights are already up there. People smashing into the boat and falling off or just missing the boat. That's already online.

15:48Would that be on Red Bull TV YouTube? Instagram for sure has it. And then I don't know the rest. But it was good. The next oldest person was 27. I believe that. And my hamstring insertion points are sore. But nothing else barks at me. Great success. Great success. Training as usual this week then. Training as usual. I ran yesterday. I'm good. All right. Well, yeah, that is definitely a novel workout of the week. Yeah. And then the next day was all-day karting. And the update, a shocking amount of people asked for more updates on Brayden. We figured out the engine, and he immediately snapped his slide.

16:30He won last weekend, and he took second this weekend by a tenth. And he was purple, meaning fastest lap, in like four of the last eight sessions. So karting's rocking now. Nice. His mechanics finally got his crap together. Yeah. Yeah, it turned out to be a mechanical issue. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. There's a lot that hinges on Braden's old man. Yep. All right. Well, good on you. I feel like you're just clicking. You're just clicking along now, Braden. You got some momentum. The rolling stone is rolling. Yeah. Yes, it is. All right. Happy to hear. But this was the first thing I've been scared for in a while.

17:05I'm firmly in the hamstring Achilles tear years of sprinting. So I was very relieved to get out of there fully healthy. And honestly, the rain probably helped. The lack of traction made it a lot harder to pop an Achilles. Yeah. You also play basketball though, and you got some good... Basketball for sure. Lateral movement definitely helps. So it probably made this a little bit less risky from that regard. For me, it would be more risky, honestly, because I've just been moving in one plane of movement for years. All right. We got to talk about run economy today. Yes. And this is something that you've had come up with athletes that you work with a couple times recently.

17:45So it became top of mind and you thought we should address this poignantly for the listeners. It's come up in my last few calls. And also I've had several people send me Instagram reels where people have to grab your attention with these reels. So it's always fast running or shoe try-ons or a scantily clad individual moving. And then they have to flash buzzwords at you and sound like they're really smart. And a few of them have had running economy flashed up on there. And then like a five second blurb that doesn't really allude to anything other than like magic and mysticism. So running economy is just a term that I don't think a lot of people actually understand.

18:31but that in reality is as complicated as you want to make it, but really is pretty simple. And I think everyone should just get on the same page with what running economy actually is and then how to improve it. I think we're as guilty as these influencers. No, one notch below. One notch below. I would say like, how often do I throw out the term like, oh, well, your biomechanical efficiency. You'd be like, yeah, that's a fancy word. That means like, How well do you run? That's run economy. We just throw it out and never really define it. To be honest, it's very buzzwordy. I feel like if people have to, okay, define run economy for me, I think most people would stutter over their words and struggle with defining it specifically because it's sort of an enigma.

19:17And the reason it's an enigma is because go watch professional athletics or your local 5k and you're going to see one girl or guy in the top 10 running like quasimodo yet they're a sub 13 minute 5k and you're like that doesn't equate in my brain how somebody moves that fast running the way they look and so it becomes like you people feel like you can't really define it if that guy can run that fast looking that bad what is run economy anyways. And that's really the issue. You nailed it. Is that people equate running economy with visual efficiency. 100%. And then scientists or coaches with any sort of higher education will speak about it and start using oxygen consumption terms and instantly people's eyes cross.

20:12And so it's like, those are the only two points of reference. People who are talking about it like it's a VO2 max calculation and people talking about it like, I can see this person's visually efficient, which we can't see. I mean, you can see outlier flaws in efficiency, but no, you can't measure running economy with your eyes. And yet announcers constantly do it. They'll say, look how efficient and relaxed this person is. You can't tell that because you would say that Eric Holt is not relaxed, but you have to be relaxed to run 330, 331. Anyway, so people don't know, but they say they know, and then it confuses everyone.

20:50So running economy is simply a measure of oxygen consumption at any given effort or pace. Really what running economy is, is fuel efficiency in a car. That's all it is. And instead of gasoline, we're measuring it in oxygen. So I don't want to get any more complicated than that. It's how much oxygen consumption does it cost you to do any given pace? Just like what's my miles per gallon right now when I'm driving? And you know, most people think of that as a physical mechanic measurement, run economy. They think of it as that versus fuel consumption at any given pace. So what do you think the best measure is scientifically, objectively of run economy?

21:32Is it your lactate threshold and your VO2 max? Is it even more granular than that? Meaning like I can, I don't know, I can run this fast in zone two. So that is my run economy measurement. Where do you start with that? I mean, the reality is only wearing a mask can you measure run economy. But what are you measuring? Volume of oxygen consumption while you're... So basically, you never breathe harder than you have to while running. When you're running easy, no one ever goes... Because if I take more in and I use less of it, I'm more efficient. That's not a thing. So you breathe in and you consume exactly as much oxygen as you need for any given effort.

22:17And scientists will measure that in a lab. That's the only measure. So basically, sorry to interrupt. No, go ahead. Well, basically what you're outlining is a submaximal test of oxygen consumption versus how fast you're moving. And it doesn't need to be a maximal reading like a VO2 max test. It can be at any given rate of work, honestly. We just don't need you to be failing during it to get a maximal measurement. An oversimplification is that a VO2 max test is just a running economy test at a max effort. Yeah. But not really max effort, but we're not even going to get into it. But yeah. Any given point is running economy.

22:59Your running economy could be tested at 20 minutes per mile all the way to three minutes per mile or beyond. I don't know if you saw this. Gosh, I hope our listeners are paying attention to world athletics and track and field. But I saw this blip about Femke Bowl. I don't know if you came across this. Because Femke Bowl from the Netherlands, my people, I'm a Dutchman, De Wint. She has stepped up from like the 400 or 400, I think even didn't she run the hurdles too? Four hurdles, yeah. Yeah, to the 800 meters. And she's had relative success. She was just third at the world champ. She's a newbie to this.

23:36In any other generation, she would be the world champ right now. Correct. Yeah. Vero's just running so well and Keely Hodgkinson is just good at closing. Anyways, point being is Femke Bowl's running like 155 or 156, I think. She's run 154. She might've run 54 high. No. Oh, she's run 54 for sure. She hasn't run 53 yet. Okay. But anyways, point being, and talk about run economy, okay, as we're talking about. No, I'm going to say in a lab granularly. um well visually first of all she lopes she's a loper her stride she looks like she's out for a cruise so they were talking about working her systems to make her a better 800 meter runner and so there her coach believes in systems work meaning like if we're going to work threshold we're going to work threshold we're not just going to say fem could go run hard for a mile and then back off and a woman who's running 154 in the 800 so what pace is that three 350 mile pace.

24:38Do you want to know what her lactate threshold is right now? You know what? I did see that. And I think people misinterpreted what he said. 650 mile pace. I think he meant aerobic threshold. I think they use the word lactate threshold. Really? No, I'm 99 % positive. I think everyone reacting to it is using lactate, but I think he meant threshold. Like, ventilatory threshold one. I don't think so. Well, we can look into it. This is exactly why there's confusion because we both heard different things from this. I heard lactate threshold. So she'll get on the track for threshold repeats. Just let me be right here.

25:14And if I'm not, I'll go redact. And so talk about run economy. So Femke Bowl is very, very efficient in run economical running at this very quick pacing for short duration. But if you made Femke Bowl sit in it, she's not going to podium at the church 5K for the females. Although she's an Olympic caliber top three world athlete. So this whole rant is to say that run economy can vary. And this is why I'm bringing it up because our follow-up episode to this is going to speak to this. Is run economy can be very different at different pacing or efforts based on your predisposition as an athlete. And so her run economy is bad considering how good her run economy is at faster pacing.

25:54So it can be very nuanced. And I just found that very interesting. Well, it is. I hope I'm not wrong. It doesn't change whether you're wrong or right about the pace because if it's aerobic threshold, it would still be the lowest or the slowest aerobic threshold in the field. By far. Yeah. So even if it's not lactate threshold, even if it's ventilatory threshold one, it's still slow for a world championship level 800 meter runner. Extremely slow. I'm looking into this now because it's bothering me. It just says threshold pace. It doesn't say lactate. The first thing I saw was threshold and everyone then responded to it as if it was lactate threshold, but there's multiple thresholds.

26:33So since she's trained by someone who uses all thresholds, my take is that he was referring to a threshold, whereas an American would say threshold work and think lactate threshold. Either way, though, she has poor running economy, the slower it goes. So her easy and long run pace would be 530 per K, which is what in miles? per hour. Call it 7 minute. Slower than that. 7.30, 8 minute pace, wasn't it? 5.30 per K? Yeah. And it says her threshold pace by comparison is 4.20 per K. That seemed like that would track for lactate threshold, wouldn't it? Okay, we can move on. Anyway, either way, it doesn't matter.

27:13She's world class. She is a world champion 400 meter hurdler and maybe indoor 400 and is a top, I think, 4 or 5 all time in the 800 and is a hobby jogger at the 10 mile. Fascinating. Talk about just a disparity and discrepancy in run economy. So when people talk running economy, just know that you can't see it, even though there's correlation and causation. You can see when someone's a beautiful runner, but it doesn't mean that their body's synergistic with all of its needs. And that's kind of the point here is that there are multiple components to running economy, and we're not going to break it down by every single one of them, but it's like, it's the synergy of everything working together.

27:57Part of it is cardiovascular fitness, like aerobic threshold, aerobic capacity, lactate threshold, all that helps, but like tendon stiffness and springiness, muscle, um, force output, oxygen transport, like the capillary density, the, all, all the things that have to do with moving oxygen and blood inside the body and putting force out and absorbing force and getting it back from the ground, running mechanics, all of that combine to create running economy. Same as fuel economy. A huge engine and terrible tires and terrible suspension is not going to give you good miles per gallon. In fact, oftentimes the bigger your engine is, the more it will burn through things if it's not using it efficiently.

28:46And so to get a very fuel-efficient car, all the little pieces kind of have to be addressed, oftentimes at the expense of other things, which is what we see with running economy. Some of the most economical runners they've ever tested have never been world champions because like anything else in life, if you're good at something, it's often at the expense of something else. And sometimes they're not the best force producers, which is needed to be able to sprint at the end of a race, or they don't have the longest stride. or they don't have, you know, something that could play out in a race, they don't have.

29:20So they're lab champions, but they're not always world champions. But it doesn't change the fact that their world level and improving your running economy almost always makes you faster. But you have to think of it like a vehicle. If you wanted the best running economy, like you would adjust, you would repair your air filter. You would make sure your tire pressure is set correctly. You wouldn't just say, can I make my engine bigger? It has to be all of the things working synergistically in order for running economy or fuel economy to show up. Mechanics do play in then. Huge part, yes. Absolutely.

29:54Can I just keep taking left turns here? Please do. This just reminds me of something else that I came across, which has to do with run economy. So I'm labeling this as this falls under the umbrella. You've noticed a rise. Kind of keep coming back to world athletics, but just let me have this. the American contingency in the 5k fantastic what did we have five of the top eight in the world or something like that between the cast Parker and Nico Graham Blanks Grant Fisher etc Cole Cole Hawker yeah and so the idea was where's the African contingency and why has there been a surgence in these Caucasian European descent prevalence in these distance races.

30:46And the argument was largely because we finally have the lower leg structure of the East Africans because super shoes has given us these Achilles tendons and these lower leg power producers that we didn't typically have what was the East African superpower, these long skinny calves with these Achilles tendons and calf attachment that goes all the way up almost to the back of their knee, right? They have a little tennis ball-sized calf right below their knee joint behind their leg. And the argument was that super shoes have given us this run economy, this efficiency that has allowed us to create more power because we're not built by large, like the East Africans.

31:29And we, I mean, like Caucasian, European descent. And so they were saying that the economical factor has single-handedly helped us in quotes more than them do you buy into it there's some there's some truth to that absolutely and paired with that is that super foams and plates respond to force output yep and europeans and north americans train power in the weight room much more than East Africans do, and they typically weigh more. And so in the past, in barefoot style shoes, you were rewarded for lightness and stiffness of tendons and ligaments and having huge energy return from this elastic band that would coil up and then spring back for you.

32:22And now the shoe can give you a lot of that, but we may even get more out of it than if you produce more force in some ways you're less economical but then the shoe helps you get that back so like it's a give and take thing but yeah i buy that the shoes help the heavier power-based athlete more than the lighter efficient that was the argument and i hadn't thought about it that way with speaking of run economy and i was like that's very interesting because um i feel like i'm a candidate for like i feel like the super shoes help me more than others meaning like I feel way more efficient in the right shoe.

32:56And I think it has to do with that very thing, little heavier mass coming into the ground. I have high power output compared to a traditional runner, much stronger than most. And I feel like that force into the ground, you said I stabbed the ground like a rhinoceros. You said rhinoceros. I said you stab. Well, I did say rhinoceros. But for some reason that almost benefits me in the right shoe. It It gives me an extra rebound effect. And I think we're seeing that on a small scale with some of the way that the European descent are built. And so I just found that very, very interesting. Speaking of run economy, I don't know where I saw that.

33:32But anyways, that was my left turn there, but we can move on from that. Well, that pairs to this well. And I saw a post talking about how tendons and specifically tendons, the stiffness in that is a huge part of being able to run faster. Well, and why is that a benefit? Because tendons require basically no blood flow. So it's requiring no oxygen consumption. It's all just spring-loaded power that's very minimally costly from an economy standpoint. And the stiffer the tendon, the more explosive the tendon. There was just a post that a world champion high jumper, I forgot who it was, but was discovered to have like 25 % stiffer Achilles tendons than average.

34:14People always think that's a bad thing. Like stiffness is a bad thing. And stiffness creates power. Tension creates power. The yoga instructor who can do the splits in 12 different directions probably can generate very little power, explosiveness, because everything is so loose, shall we say? whereas the person who can barely touch their toes or can't touch their toes in a hamstring stretch is a bound up rubber band ready to explode and can create a lot of power on quick note and can also snap a hamstring easily but well correct but tension energy potential is higher right so yeah and there are some very springy flexible people but it's a it it stems from a different source but anyway so coming back to running economy yes always all runners everywhere need to focus on building their engine.

35:05But if that were the case, the people with the biggest engines would have the biggest running economy and that's just simply not true. So what you want to do, the example of running economy, one example of it is that if Kirk and I both went out and ran seven minute pace, our heart rates would be different, our lactate accumulation would be different, but our oxygen consumption would be different as well. And so if Kirk's taking in 10 % less oxygen than me per minute, then I am less efficient. I'm having to work all my systems more to do that. He has to use everything less. And the idea is that the less oxygen you have to take in, it's kind of a chicken egg thing, but then your heart rate stays lower and then lactate production stays lower.

35:53And so we always think of it from a lactate threshold standpoint, but it also can be an oxygen consumption standpoint like that will come first as well. So you can only build your engine as fast as you can build it. And your genetic potential for that is only as big as it is. But we're not as limited by other things. Like you can increase your tendon stiffness. You can make your mechanics better and more efficient. You can decrease your ground contact time, your vertical oscillation, your imbalances in your stride, all of those things combined together to do this. So simply working on getting better at running can be done for the sake of this by more than just spamming volume and intensity.

36:41And that's kind of the takeaway that I think people need to have out of this is that, A, it's pretty easy to think about it, just fuel economy, and then look at where am I losing my fuel economy? If we think about it in a car, Like the high mileage, there's like a whole cult of people who are just high gas mileage people. Have you seen these people, Kirk? No. Go ahead. There'll be threads online of people who are trying to get every maximum mile per gallon out of their vehicle. And so they way overfill their tires. And air filter is a big thing. And oil changes are got to keep the oil as light as possible and as clean as possible.

37:23And basically all the scheduled maintenance they do ahead of schedule, and then they push certain things to the limit like tire pressure. And then they really, really are easy on their throttle in and out. They'll take 30 seconds to get up to highway speed, and they'll coast as much as possible. So they're doing all those little things, none of which have to do with improving their engine. And that's the way we think about it as well. Like, yeah, obviously at the start of a 5K, if you accelerate up to 5K pace in two seconds versus 20 seconds, you're going to burn way more energy doing that. And we watch Ingebrigtsen do this off the start line.

37:57He eases into it. If you have shoes on that are way more efficient for your running stride, you're going to have to burn less oxygen. If your tendons are stiffer, you're going to rebound more energy off the ground and get more return for your investment. and you're also going to spend less time on the ground. So ground contact is going to improve, which usually leads to increased cadence and less damage. And so everything kind of snowballs together. But so you can focus on all of those little things and that can improve like in a week or two, you can improve a lot of those things. Like in a month, you can do that, which is way quicker than you would see a noticeable improvement in engine.

38:41Do you think for the lay person that simply heart rate to pace is a good indicator. People aren't going to the labs to get oxygen consumption tested. It's one of the few things we have to go on and what our watch metrics will tell us. For example, I just got a voice note from an athlete I started working with a few weeks ago last night, and he said, I don't know what's happening. And he just had to share. He's like, I'm not joking you. I was 30 seconds per mile faster on my recovery run today at the exact same heart rate. And I don't know what's happening. And I was like, I could tell you it's happening.

39:17Weather. Well, I said weather could factor in as well. I did. That was part of my, I said, one of two things is happening. It's probably both. Weather probably was cooler. And then two, this is actually working, right? He's finally on a structured training plan and it's working. And so if somebody sees this, sure, weather, you're right, weather, but do you think that's a fair assessment of run economy improving? Or do you think that's an assessment of my literally capillary density in my, you know, that's improving. I think it's the best proxy for a lab test is just watching your heart rate at any given pace or any given heart rate.

39:52That's what I think too. The thing that I think we're going to have to take this one step further in, and I'm not necessarily sure I have answers to this, but you say that these are relatively easy things to improve. Like you can improve tendon tension in a month, or you can improve lowering your ground contact time or your vertical oscillation. By the way, if you want to improve your vertical oscillation, just run uphill on a treadmill. I think it's a hack, by the way, to train you to run low and slow. What are the tangibles? Somebody's saying, okay, everybody wants to be more efficient. Bracken, I want to be more efficient, don't we all?

40:24The gains are left on the table to be had. So it's like, okay, what does that mean? How do I improve my vertical oscillation or my ground contact time? What are the cues that people would need to focus on? It could be as simple as arm carriage coming across your midline, your feet coming across your midline every time they hit the ground, all of those things factor in. I'm struggling to say, what are the things people could do? Well, this is one of those like, okay, you learned everything you need to learn about running economy. Now forget it and just focus on the things that improve it. We're not going to try to track it.

40:54We're not going to try to really quantify it. We're not going to stress over it on any given run. We're just going to work on the things that we know improve that. So the factors. I don't need to check your tire pressure throughout your entire run, but if you just have better tires on and you fill them up, you're good. That's kind of the approach I'm taking to this. So first, increase force output. If you can put more force out, you're going to use less effort to put submaximal force out. That's always been the kind of the crux of the strongman world saying that you can get better for running by lifting.

41:31Well, you don't get faster for running by lifting, but you can get more economical. So being able to put out more force in a Bulgarian split squat or a back squat or a deadlift or single leg squat or lunges means that the act of running, you're going to be able to put more into the ground with less cost. So if you see your numbers getting better there, you know you're going to produce more force. Plyometric work. If you get better at plyometric work, you are going to get better at ground contact time and you're also going to get stiffer tendons. when you just like if you lift weights, your muscles get stronger or bigger.

42:05If you do plyometric and explosive work, your tendons get stiffer. That is the response from a tendon. They respond to that the way that muscles respond to lifting. You can't help it. If you do it, it will improve. Yeah. I used to think focus on like the calf work and the lower leg, soft tissue stuff was kind of a waste of time. I get plenty of that by running, especially if I run uphill and yada, yada. Now, the more you think of like force production and where we really generate our power, like our first contact and only contact point is the foot and that lower leg power generation. Yes, having stronger glutes and tough hamstrings are going to create more power, which then you use a smaller percentage of that when you're running and that becomes more economical.

42:46But what I'm getting at is like the stupid things like spending time single leg hopping or jump roping or like doing a box drop jump, right? Those things, like when you watch the vast majority of people, and I don't mean to categorize, but especially women and especially middle-aged women, the ground contact time is so long and so slow for the vast majority. And they just don't, the way that by large we're built, we don't have that like springy lower leg explosive like arrow in our quiver. And so the candidates for that, in my opinion, are those with the long ground contact time should be doing everything in their power.

43:24Like I said, the single leg hops, the jump roping, the drop jumps, like just keep boinging off of your forefoot. And that will make you, you'd be surprised how much that could help. And now I really subscribe to the camp, like have a strong lower leg. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you have a weak chain or a weak link in the chain from toes up till hips, energy leaks out there because it can't transfer the energy up your leg at a one-to-one ratio. Now, nothing's one-to-one. It's all going to leak out slightly. But if there's a real weakness there, energy is going to leave. It's going to dissipate.

44:03It's going to leave the stride and you're getting less return on your investment and your running economy is going to drop. People don't like the term bulletproofing. I love it because it gives you something to aspire to. If you can just focus on bulletproofing from your toes to your glutes, your running economy is going to rise because you're not losing energy off to the side. These compound with the benefit of having resistance to impact because they all help with that. But by doing plyometrics and strengthening your tendons and decreasing your ground contact time, you're doing what super shoes do for people.

44:38We know putting on shoes that are bouncier give us a better stride. You can do that with your muscles and your tendons. You can do that yourself. So then you get it from two sources rather than just one. So focusing on plyometrics, focusing on some good lifting that does not fatigue you for the running, which is important here because the final piece is to run well. I don't care what it looks like. You need to run your cleanest best version and you can't sag over time. You want to run in this scenario where you're trying to improve running economy. I believe you should run right up into the point where you can't keep running beautifully anymore and then you're done for that run.

45:19Or you take a rest and then you do it again. Like if someone has to split up a 60-minute run into two 30-minute runs or a 40 and a 20 or six by 10 minutes with short, short breaks just to reset and get your form back, that is better for improving your running economy than running well for 40 minutes and slogging for 20. Slogging's fine for other things. it's not helping you become better at the act of running. And the single greatest running thing you can do to get better at running is to run cleanly as often as humanly possible. So in this scenario, doubling or tripling in a day or running broken aerobic intervals is more important for you than just simply time on feet.

46:08I'm trying to think how I feel about that. I'm trying to think how I feel about that mostly because I agree with you, by the way, at the same time. Um, I think half the people think they never run beautifully. Right. So what am I even doing? Uh, half the people are like, well, that's not really feasible for me. I got to get this all done at one time in the morning before I go to work or things like that, of course. So there's like some, some problems potentially there. Um, but I would take 50 good minutes over 60 sloppy minutes. How does one know that's what I'm trying to get at? Like, uh, like for example, Like I want to run well and within myself, but I may get ugly on my last 400 of my 16 by 400s where, yeah, I'm thrashing in the home stretch because I'm chasing a time.

46:50And I don't know if you're necessarily talking about that as much as you're talking about like I have eight by three minutes on the docket and I can already feel in rep three that I'm starting to go to my arms early. And I can already tell that, you know, I'm kind of heading backwards and I'm fighting for pace already. cut it, give yourself a big break and then come back to it sort of thing. I guess more specifically the outline is what I'm trying to get at. Also recovery days. Instead of slogging for 45 minutes or an hour, I'd rather you run 10 by four minutes or 10 by six minutes and run good.

47:26Just run better. We don't know what perfect looks or feels like, but we know the difference between good and bad when we're running. I may be an ugly runner, but this is my best version of me right now. And then, uh, I am, I am slogging at this point. My hips are swaying. My knees are sinking. My ground context getting worse. You may not have the words to all that, but you know, the feeling like cut it, refresh, go skill reps are what I'm talking here. Now, is this the best way to get a bigger engine? Not necessarily, but if you want every rep to be as clean as possible, which is the best way to build the physical action of running economy, that piece to it, the mechanical process, you do all clean reps.

48:08And I'd rather have all clean reps at a slightly lower volume than a huge volume with a bunch of sloppy reps in there. This is more pointed towards newer runners. This is the pro runners can keep building their economy, but it's not necessarily always through making sure every rep is clean because they run so well anyway. Yeah, that's fair. There's definitely a toughness mentality to the anti-run walk crowd. I don't have to walk right now. I don't need a break. But taking it with purpose when you feel like things are maybe going a little bit south. I could see an argument for that for sure. How would that make me run faster?

48:47It could be a 10 second reset. How would that make me run faster on race day? If your biomechanical pathways are totally based around one movement pattern, it's going to be harder to get you off that movement pattern. If you have a well-greased track that you take this exit whenever you fatigue, you're going to take that exit. And the patterns we practice are the patterns we keep. And then of course, in training, you practice them under duress and they become easier to keep in training. But the smoother you can keep your stride, the less breakdown you can have, the more you're going to keep it on race day.

49:23And then you spam volume, but good volume. The more volume you can do at a short ground contact time, the more that just becomes the only way your legs know to move. Yeah, I agree with all of that. I think it is a fine line though, in some sense, in the fact that, um, at some point, like if the ultimate goal is to get faster to let's say run faster on race day, which most of us listening are racing. There's also then this sort of like tipping point of like, I need to be quite fatigued, but still keeping it together. So I think it is a fine line between just shying away. As soon as you're like, okay, my form is, I can tell that I'm starting to lack here.

50:02I also think there's a time and a place where you say, no, button it up and stay on it. And then you get efficient again or attempt to, because on race day, the idea is to ride that line as long as possible. So I think there are times when like, it's like, button it up. I'm staying the course, but I need to refocus on what I'm doing to stay economical at this effort and pacing. So the first time you feel your arms come across your mid-body or now Now I'm starting to heel strike because I'm fatigued. I think there's also a point where you don't, you don't always just stop and walk it out or reset.

50:33It's also like in the moment, I think real time, it is important to be like, no, no, no, tighten it back up, keep going, but just being conscious of it. I don't think for the newer runner, I think you're speaking to more than anything, but for me constantly in the back half of a big workout, which I'll have something after this, I'll like turn into the wind, let's say, and suddenly I'm having to fight for pace because I got a 10 mile an hour headwind and it's like, no, no, no. don't start over striding and leaning into it too much, like tighten everything up and stay the course. And so what I'm getting at is you don't always want to stay away from the sun in that regard.

51:05No. And if you can self-regulate while doing it, do it. I just want the most good reps possible. Yeah. And you can just tie it together. Yeah. You have your cue, you hit it and you get back to it. You see, I mean, if you watch enough of those like tracks to pro level workouts, like a coach will pull you those high level coaches big. You look like SHIT. You're getting pulled. You're reaching too much. I can see it. You're done. We don't need bad reps anymore. Yes, you have three reps you're supposed to be doing that are left, but I'm yanking you right now. Just not your day. You never let them see.

51:37You never see a high-level coach be like, that's fine. Go thrash yourself to get it done. Never. And I'm speaking more to the aerobic days. Yeah, I'm sensing that. But honestly, the newer runners never need to thrash themselves anyway. they can stay one notch below miserable always and focus on just running better and I think they'll be fine but I mean these rest are short I'll do this on long runs from time to time I'll pull over do five butt kicks five high knees and just get back to work and clean the stride up a little bit but we're also spending a lot of time on the thing that maybe is the least necessary up front force output and tendon stiffness is a real good way to help this plyo two to three times a week lift two to three times a week run as often as possible well and you're doing the main things you need to do to improve this the reality is that people are going to go oh that's not all that special it's like no it's not but how many of you are doing plyo two to three times a week with purpose actual plyo not a half-hearted dynamic warm-up how many of you are lifting with the idea of getting better at pushing into the ground i'm not entirely sure But I know that most runners aren't doing both of those things concurrently with attempting to run a good amount of volume, but very cleanly.

52:51Yeah. All the things that might make them better in order to run better are being sacrificed so they can go for their runs. Yeah. And it can be a little bit of a catch-22 for some of the people who need it. So real quick, you need to get a workout in. And if you're looking at the clock, are you going to have time still if we wrap this up? Yep. Okay. So let's leave it at this. I feel like I just want to hear, I think most people are going to be like, what plyos? I think some people are, that's where I think most people's head are going. Like, just give me your top, top movements, uh, real quick that you, uh, think people should be doing and then let's cut this thing.

53:22So I think all runners need to focus on single leg plyo. You will get pushback from other coaches about this, but just bang for your buck, being stable, planted, putting out force. I think single leg plyo is where to put your energy. There's a lot of great stuff you can do with bilateral work. I just don't want to. I'm not going to get a half hour from everyone three times a week. So I'm going to take the minimum. And I think you start small. I'd rather do small movements, single leg than big movements with two legs. Just in terms of, I'm not going to get you to commit a lot of time to this anyway.

53:58So starting with single leg hops, progressing to single leg bounds, and then long striding bounds and skips. That's all I really need people to be doing. But starting with the most planted, even if it's low to the ground hops, just prioritizing on and off the ground quickly in reps of like three to five early and then progressing to more in prioritizing, not letting yourself get off center line too much. We want to sway out to the side when we do these naturally, but we don't do that. And so I would start by doing just like hop up and down on my right foot really well for a few seconds and then the left and then from right to left while progressing forward and some power skip, some bounding, but starting and staying where you're always planted.

54:45Good center of mass, centered chest slightly over the top of the hips, hips slightly over the top of the ankles and just progress up through that. That's what I would do. Skipping, hopping, bounding. You don't, no recommendation for like box jumps or. I think that's fine. And from a force production, you should probably should do that. But I think people are also more at risk to get hurt doing that right away. So I would actually, this is one of the only times in life I would start single leg and then progress up to big box jumps and things like that once you can handle it more. But I don't see a need to put someone on deficit jumps or big box jumps or down up downs right off the jump.

55:28I could be argued on that and maybe I'd change my mind, but I just don't know if the risk is worth the reward early on. Yeah. Yeah, I think those are all great movements. I agree with that single leg hop, single leg bounds, we'll call them. Another hack for the gym, which I really like this movement, I consider it relatively safe, but I'm also fairly stable, would be a Bulgarian split squat jump. So it's basically, I do like it loaded, but you're in the Bulgarian split squat position and you're actually, your foot's leaving the ground. You're going down, you're coming up out of the split squat and actually doing like a jump off of your toe.

56:01So you're literally getting air, so to speak. And you're going one into the next, into the next. Body weight's a great place to start, but that's another one that kind of combines the strength component with the explosive component. So Bulgarian split squat jump, do 12 to 15 reps a side if you can. Go to the other side, do the same. You'd be surprised how that loads your calf. Plus you're getting the benefit of the range of motion of the bulgey, plus it's power production all the way through the glute, all the way down to like the Achilles tendon with that jump. It's like a really phenomenal. I've never done that.

56:31It's fantastic. And also if you start weighting them, which I do, holy smokes, does it work at all pretty well? And it's pretty safe as long as you're stable, of course. Or you could just jump rope. My other option is just pick any jump rope routine and start jump roping. That's a good start. But eventually, yeah, we got to progress to real power output. And then deadlift, Bulgarian split squat, regular split squat, reverse lunges, anything you're pushing into the ground hard and getting up off the ground. Those are beautiful, but we're not trying to wreck ourselves for the running because we still want to run clean.

57:03Yep. I agree with that. All right. We got to cut this thing. We're prioritizing your fitness. Your Rolling Stone has no moss and let's keep it that way, Bracken. So what is your session today? I'm going to spin some three-minute intervals. Ooh. Why are you spinning versus running? Oh, no, not at. I just like rev them up and go. Okay. You're not actually on the spin bike. No, no, no, no. I'm going to run. And I'm going to be in the meta speeds testing these puppies out. Cool. I'm going to do eights and fours today in an interesting setup. Eights and fours. Which I haven't done this workout in years, so I'm looking forward to it.

57:35Well, good luck. You as well. Good destiny to you, Bracken. If anything resonated with you on today's episode and you're curious about taking your training to the next level, check out therunningpublic.com, where we have a training plan to fit your needs.

57:56You