Is this the real reason Trump made a deal with Putin?

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2:44Katie Balls, Washington editor and columnist for The Times and Sunday Times. And I'm Gerry Baker, columnist for The Times and editor-at-large of The Wall Street Journal. This week, Katie, we're 20 days out from the midterm elections and there are more signs that perhaps the wheels are coming off the Trump train. We had, of course, his deal, his diesel deal with Vladimir Putin, announced at the end of last week, which has even some Republicans rebelling in protest. His ambassador to Greece has had to step down amid corruption allegations. Federal agents searched the home of a political opponent.

3:18And, of course, we had his new press secretary who came out this week, somewhat stumbling through her first outing and facing questions about her past and her qualifications. So you've been on the campaign trail, I know, also with Speaker Mike Johnson this week, and we'll hear in a bit how it feels on the ground for Republicans. But let's start with that diesel deal, the deal that he seems to have done with Vladimir Putin. come under a lot of pressure for it already, even from some in his own party. And we can hear how he responded to a question that highlights one of the concerns that many people have.

3:51Has somebody told you that Russia is not just going to take this diesel money and use it to buy bombs? No, nobody's told me anything. That's a diesel deal not for us. That's being released into the world. That's not being released to us. That's a diesel deal that's going to be released into the world. for the world market. So Katie, you're talking to Republicans. You've been out there in Texas with Mike Johnson. A lot of Republicans have been going along very uneasily with Trump's appeasement of Russia. How is this one going down? I think, as you say, there's a lot of Republicans who feel uncomfortable, particularly Republican lawmakers, and they're also questioning the legality of what Donald Trump has done.

4:36Now, we go back to when this all began to kick off, which was Friday evening when, as per usual, Trump decided to break news on his Truth Social account and said he was signing a deal with Putin for Russia to supply America with diesel. And of course, this is down to the fact that diesel is at its highest ever price in the USA last month. Donald Trump is under pressure ahead of the midterms to try and alleviate some of the economic pain. Does anyone understand what this is? I mean, again, exactly as you say, the deal makes almost no difference to diesel prices. All it is, it's a free gift to Vladimir Putin who has been sanctioned.

5:17Does anybody you speak to, any Republican, have any sense here of what Trump is doing, other than this bizarre kind of bromance that he seems to have with Putin? There are some who say, oh, he's trying to show that he's doing something. Even if it doesn't hit voters' wallets in time, it looks like the president is trying to pull various levers. You also have some in the Republican Party. So the Republican Congresswoman, Anna Paulina, basically taking to Twitter to say this is great. This is the beginning of more deals with Russia. And therefore, I think it comes down to Trump trying to show he's helping ahead of the midterms, but also the fact that ultimately he just doesn't see Russia like many of his predecessors have or many in his party do.

6:04And you have an attempt to slowly bring Russia back into the fold when it comes to, You know, for example, Marko Rubio inviting Russia to the G20 and Zayla be invited. This idea that the way you unlock help from Russia is through business deals and America could actually make money with Russians. Trump does not see Putin as an evil guy. But ultimately, I think when you look at this deal, the winner, as you say, is Vladimir Putin. And it has already unfolded in the way that it is giving Russia an upper hand. And I think that the biggest impact is not to American voters, it's to Ukraine and Russia.

6:38And so far, to me, it seems like pretty bad news for Zelensky. What do you think, Jerry? Very interestingly, there were reports last week that as Trump was announcing this thing with Russian diesel, the American and Ukrainian negotiators were meeting in Florida and that Trump was trying to get this energy ceasefire that he talks about, which, of course, is absolutely meaningless. I mean, he announced an energy ceasefire on whatever it was on Monday. And literally within hours, Russia was hitting energy facilities in Ukraine. But as part of that attempt to get that energy ceasefire, the American negotiators were threatening the Ukrainians that if they didn't agree to back off hitting Russian energy targets, the refineries and everything that have caused so much disruption, the US would withhold that intelligence support that has been so critical in Ukraine's ability to, frankly, to prosecute this war.

7:27I don't know, Katie, it just all looks to me like part of this gargantuan grift that this entire administration is pursuing all the time for itself, for the individuals, for Trump, his family, for his people close to him, for people who've given him huge amounts of money. stories like literally day after day after day of people in this administration, people close to Trump, people in the Trump family just making money, personal amounts of money on a scale that we have never seen before. And I think, you know, it's kind of numbing really the scale of this corruption. And I think it's not, you know, I'm old enough to remember, you know, when years, not so many years ago, if a president, you know, was accused of, you know, maybe making an opportunity, getting an opportunity for himself after he left office by currying favour with a foreign power or a domestic company or whatever.

8:24It will be massive news. It will be scandals. It will be on the front page of every newspaper. Everybody will be talking about it for days. This stuff is going on, not like deferred gratification, not deferred grift, as some previous presidents have undoubtedly done, But literally, day by day by day, Trump and his people are making hundreds of millions, billions and billions of billions of dollars. And I just I think when I think when we come to look back at so much of what this administration has done, that will be seen as the primary motivating factor. And it's just it's just it's just on another level.

8:57We've never seen anything like it. So do you think, Jerry, that ultimately, and we have seen, you know, Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law, I think, talk about the potential in Russia. Do you think that Trump thinks that if he opens this market before the end of his presidency, that it's going to make him and his family personally richer? Yes, without any question at all. The reality is that Trump sees opportunity. You know, he's quite good at exploiting people's needs, right? What Putin needs is a kind of, you know, is one to sort of be back in from the cold to some extent, to be able to be back access to open markets, to have access to global energy markets again.

9:36He needs NATO to be weakened. He needs Ukraine to be at minimum sort of, you know, reduced to a sort of vassal state. Trump realizes that Putin needs those things and says, what can I get out of this? So, you know, I can help you achieve those things, all of those things, weaken NATO, give you access to global energy markets, weaken Ukraine. What's in it for me? What are you going to do for me? And the answer is quite a lot because there's, you know, energy deals and real estate deals and all kinds of other things. What do you think of the politics of it, the domestic politics? As we said, we're less than three weeks now away from the midterms.

10:17Does the fact that it looks just like a grubby deal with somebody that nobody in America other than Donald Trump likes Vladimir Putin? Does that hurt the Republicans? How do you see the politics of this in the next couple of weeks? Yeah, I mean, so I'm dialing in from Texas this week and I've been following Mike Johnson, the House Speaker, around for a little bit as he embarks on his campaign to try and keep the House Republicans, something that is a near impossible task, maybe just impossible. And I have to be honest that some of these rallies and speaking to voters and these, you know, the ones who would attend a rally of Mike Johnson, and the Republican candidates tend to be Republican.

10:52But the Russia deal is just not coming up. So I don't think it has moved, you know, from speaking to voters, I don't think it's moved the dial in either direction. And I suspect if it was drastically reducing fuel prices, it would, you know, there were people who would just take that and they wouldn't be overthinking, you know, where it is coming from. But I think it is, I think for Republican politicians and those who are thinking bigger picture, it's making them very uncomfortable. But I think for voters who would take the cut, it's just not making that big price cut. And therefore, it still feels pretty uphill when it comes to the Republicans in the midterm.

11:30So I'm not sure it's moving the dial in either direction. Gerry, would you disagree? No, I completely agree. I'm interested to know, you know, again, you're spending time with Mike Johnson, who's the House Speaker, we should say, of course, down there in Texas. I'm sure it's all happy talk. But everything I see, by the way, in Texas, as we've talked about many, many times, interesting, not only, of course, for the Senate race, where James Tallarico, the Democrat, seems to have a lead in the polls over Ken Paxton, the Republican. That would be the first time the Senate has gone Democratic in decades.

12:02But the governor's race seems quite close down there. And there are a number of key House races down there, Katie, which is really interesting because, of course, Texas is where they did the big redistricting Republican-controlled legislature to basically create more Republican districts. It looks increasingly like that's backfiring, particularly because Hispanic voters are turning on Republicans, and it could end up actually costing the Republican seats. What are you hearing from Johnson and what are you hearing from the Texas party down there? Well, completely there. I've been in southern Texas.

12:34So this is, you know, high Hispanic voters. These are the seats that have been redistricted. And at the time, you know, speaking to Republican insiders and some on the ground, you know, I think the Republicans thought they were being really clever by saying, well, this is quite a safe area for us. We will reduce it. So, you know, it's still a Republican area, but we don't need them to be as safe as they are. and part of that was because in 2024 they did so well with the Hispanic vote but that vote has completely plummeted and now there's a worry that seats they really should have held they've almost been too clever by half and now are at risk of losing.

13:10Now what Mike Johnson has been saying that you just cannot trust the polls, American polls are very bad and very unpredictable so it's going to be really really close but everyone needs to get out there and vote. Speaking to some Republicans at these events, I've had a few say, you know, we're still, they're very unhappy about the economy. No one is really pretending that that is working in a way that they want to. I would say this is less the core base, but there is definitely concern over ICE being too heavy handed, and that is hurting them. But generally, I've spoken to quite a few say, well, we're going to vote for our guys, we're going to vote Republican, but we think they are going to lose several key house seats.

13:47All right, well, we should take a break there. When we come back. More to talk about on the political front. To stay with us, we'll talk about that when we come back.

13:55Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

14:33You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

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16:50Welcome back. Well, I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts, is of course a famous line from Virgil. Well, somebody who didn't seem to fear Greeks bearing gifts, or indeed anybody else bearing gifts, was Kimberly Guilfoyle, President Trump's ambassador to Greece, who was forced to resign this week after, and I must say, this was some terrific Wall Street Journal reporting last week that reported that she had done all kinds of things with wealthy donors, most notoriously just before her confirmation as ambassador to Greece last year, had lent on a wealthy donor to pay off a$100 ,000 American Express bill.

17:36The story, the Wall Street Journal story, then went on to document ways in which her relationship with this man, a wealthy Republican donor who was trying to get favors from the administration, essentially her relationship with him was one of, shall we say, a utilitarian one, in which she was asking him to supply all kinds of money. It comes amid the other allegations of corruption. What makes Kimberley Guilfoyle interesting in many, many ways is not just that she's Trump's ambassador to Greece, but she, of course, rather famously dated Donald Trump Jr., Trump's son. And they were engaged. Sorry, yeah, that's right.

18:15They were engaged and the engagement was broken off. And the ambassador to Greece job was kind of seen as a sort of a bit of a sort of consolation prize. A consolation that helped it all to get quite far away. Some might say that, you know, she got a better deal being ambassador to Greece than being married to Donald Trump Jr. But not much of a consolation. The consolation was the other way. But anyway, so she becomes ambassador to Greece. Then it's revealed by the Wall Street Journal that she's up to her knees in all kinds of allegations of dubious activity. Katie, what did you make of it all?

18:42Well, I think first off, something that we've remarked around in the case of Christy Noem, when the former head of Homeland Security, who was also forced out, is that, you know, there's been a much lower staff turnover in second term Trump than first term. And, you know, even we're going to get on to the new White House press secretary. But I think you have to ask the question, what does it take to get fired in Trump world? Because we have spoken just now about what's happening with Russia, Ukraine, oil grift, grift the sense that you know lots of things that would be shocking normally almost just happen and there's little in the way of consequence and yet Kimberly Guilfoyle managed to go far enough that the Trump administration just didn't want to spend the political capital on her and I think it was you know the drip drip of stories and I think certainly as you say the Wall Street Journal reports with eye-popping detail about you know her she was worried about a hundred thousand dollar Amex bill ahead of her confirmation, how that might look bad.

19:45So her solution was not to pay it herself, but to send messages saying, you know, this is how you... We've all been there. We've all been there, Katie,$100 ,000 Amex bill. We've got a friend we can just call and say, please pay off. I've got a rather embarrassing$100 ,000 Amex bill. Can you just please pay it off for me? Yeah, she made me feel quite good about my own Amex bill, actually. It put it into proportion. So, I mean, that one, I think, as you say, the energy lobbyist who would just be at her side in various meetings. Then we had her stay at the Four Seasons Hotel in Paris for Paris Fashion Week, paid by a Greek shipping tycoon, and it was his wife's fashion show.

20:22And the list goes on and on. And also, clearly, people had it out for her because she'd made too many enemies to get away with this kind of behavior because the Wall Street Journal had the receipts. There's also been recordings of her boasting. And then, you know, making a lot of her connections. What do you make of it, Gerry? The people in this administration behaving in this sort of Marie Antoinette, kind of Romanoffs, whatever, whichever historical analogy you want to use, just pursuing their own gain, using their positions to pursue financial material gain everywhere they possibly can. And, you know, look, this is who they are.

21:04And to some extent, you know, I'm not in any way, obviously, as you can tell from the way I'm talking about it, I'm not in any way kind of excusing it. But that's just who these people are. They are just grifters. And, you know, they see instead of seeing, you know, I want to say I'm rather highfalutin here, but, you know, the opportunity of representing your country as ambassadors of Greece to be, you know, an envoy for, you know, the country for American values of what you stand for. They just think, wow, what a fantastic opportunity to enrich myself. I think the damage to America's reputation by all of this is incalculable actually.

21:42And just for other countries – there are lots of corrupt countries in the world, lots of places where accountability is pretty limited and people in powerful positions get away with enriching themselves. But America has kind of been – look, again, it's always gone on. My god, we've had some very corrupt presidents and some corrupt administrations. But there's always been a sense, at least, that America is trying to keep, you know, trying to keep its keep its leaders on the sort of straight and narrow. And now what we have is a situation where America just seems to be actually encouraging and, you know, you know, and actually accelerating this process of self enrichment.

22:20And it's it's it's it's a very, very, very bad look and it will take years to repair. Now, we should say that Kimberly Guilford has dismissed all the allegations. And she said in her resignation statement that she planned to clear her name. The slight complication was, of course, she didn't actually choose to resign. She was effectively sacked in the sense that it was at the White House press briefing where the new press secretary, Katie Zakaria, ultimately was asked about the ambassador's position and said, we have asked her to resign. And then she pushed out the statement. but I think speaking to figures in Trump world you know they say well the thing is only one person's opinion really matters when it comes to DC right now and that is Donald Trump and in the court of opinion he clearly has had enough I think Marco Rubio and his team were also pretty unimpressed that obviously he went to Greece last week gave this big speech in front of the Acropolis on you know western values and then in the Q &A the next day was basically just being asked about the Greek ambassador and propriety so I think it's hard for her But I suppose the one thing would be she has been around the Trump family a long time.

23:25So perhaps they wouldn't want her to go fully off the reservation list, just like with Kristi Noem. She did get another job, just a much lower level job. You mentioned Katie Zakaria there, the new press secretary, who this week, as you say, made news in her first press outing by announcing that they'd rather weirdly actually said they'd asked Kimberley Guilfoyle to resign. Yes. And I think we can hear a clip. Good morning. Good morning. I am so honored to work for President Trump and the American people. As the new White House press secretary, we have asked Ambassador Guilfoyle to resign. She has been a wonderful asset to the team and we wish her well.

24:10He had a historic one-day war and now we have a booming economy and a great relationship with Venezuela. The idea of not spending evenings with my kids is completely unacceptable. So my president, excuse me, my husband, that's a good one. I mean, look, we shouldn't be too harsh. First time out front of, you know, quite an intimidating crowd in that press corps. But it was a little bit like, you know, watching your sort of five-year-old go out on stage in front of a, you know, a not particularly friendly audience. and stumble quite badly. And there are also these questions about exactly, about her CV, about her resume.

24:55And, you know, she claims to be a practising attorney. And yet there are question marks about whether she actually qualified, took the bar exam. Do you think she's in trouble or do you think it's just, are we just all being a bit unkind because it's too early? Because early days, she ultimately decided to do a briefing very, very quickly into starting, which I get for just getting it done. but I think it's also just a reminder of how good Caroline Leavitt was at her job and and you know I've had you know Democrats who say well I don't like Caroline Leavitt because she lies every time she opens her mouth but god is she good at her job and we're never really nervous for Caroline Leavitt and I think because also she was kind of she'd grown up in the age of Trump and she's also a former political candidate and it meant that she was very attuned to kind of sometimes brazenly just say things that you know for Trump that you know others might not get away with um you mean that little matter of truth you know that she's a brazen approach to the truth yeah but to do it with such confidence and you know not blink and not stutter and I and therefore I think it was always gonna be a hard act for anyone to follow her and you know for example we're hearing that um you know I think there's also a new kind of change of power because we're hearing that But, you know, it's always interesting where people's desks are, which sounds like petty issues.

26:14But, you know, Caroline Leibert had the biggest office. Stephen Chung, the director of comms, has now moved into that office. And the new press secretary is in the smaller office. Oh, that is interesting. Yeah, so I think, you know, she is a less powerful press secretary than what came before, which isn't a fault of her own. She doesn't have such a long existing relationship as the previous one did. And I think that's going to be reflected in probably how she does those briefings. and she is at least initially going to be speaking with less authority. All right, well, before we go, there is a movie coming out, a documentary coming out this week, which I think will be quite widely received and be quite interesting.

26:51I have to confess I have a bit of a personal interest in it. It's the movie, it's the documentary of Elizabeth Holmes. I don't have anything to deceive you on. Of course I'm not deceiving you. I'm engaging with you as a human being. Hmm? Why would I deceive you? there's no reason for me to do that. Okay. Those of you who have relatively long memories will recall that Elizabeth Holmes was the Silicon Valley entrepreneur who founded this company called Theranos, which claimed to be able to revolutionise blood testing. I'm glad to say that I was editor of the Wall Street Journal at the time. We had an absolutely terrific reporter, John Carreyrou, who had done some great reporting on, great investigative reporting.

27:39And he was the one who got the tip and managed to expose that the company was essentially a fraud. It was an extraordinary period for me. I was, you know, I was, as I was the editor of the journal. We had a fantastic reporter and editor who had discovered this story, dug into it. We received unbelievable pressure from Elizabeth Holmes and her very, very well-connected circle, trying to sue us, trying to prevent publication. We had the goods. She was banged to write. So we didn't really have any – I didn't have any doubts at all about the validity of the story. And we published it and everything fell away as it did.

28:17But I think what's so interesting about this is the – just this endless ability of people, particularly Americans. I mean you have to almost admire it, but Americans to kind of – to rebuild from the ashes. You know, the single most inaccurate sort of saying that I think one of the things I've ever heard in my life was I think it was F. Scott Fitzgerald saying there are no second acts in American lives. It's so completely wrong. I mean almost everybody who achieves anything in American life very often fails, you know, either through criminal behavior or just misfortune or whatever and then kind of reinvents themselves.

28:55And I have no doubt – by the way, we are looking at in the person of the president of the United States, the most spectacular second act or second or third or fourth or fifth act, if you like, in American life. And it just – I don't know. This seems to me just to be another example. I have a feeling we'll be hearing a lot more from Elizabeth Holmes despite the fact that she defrauded investors. She defrauded consumers and everybody else. And she's somehow now remaking herself. It is, again, it's a weird sort of testament to the enduring strength of the American dream. My hunch would be it's not going to work out as perhaps she envisives in terms of improving her reputation.

29:37But, Jerry, that's probably about all we have time for this week. I just had a final question on that, which is just from your kind of covering that story at the time. Some people say, oh, Elizabeth Holmes is misunderstood. She was trying really hard and all went a bit wrong. Others see her as malign. What do you think of her character? She was a fraud. I mean, she was just, she was, you know, a grifter to return to, you know, she was a clever one. A Steven's podcast. She was a clever one, without doubt. And she had an extraordinary ability to deceive some really, really smart people. I mean, yeah, the most interesting thing really, and I've reflected so many times on the story, Katie, was the most interesting thing to me was, I mean, again, you probably won't remember it.

30:20But it was about 15 years ago when she was fated in the around. She was she was routinely on the front cover of like every major American newspaper and magazine as the as the female Steve Jobs. That's how she was. She presented herself. She even looked a bit like Steve Jobs, to say that slightly self-consciously wearing a, you know, a roll neck sweater as I am now. But she kind of dressed like Steve Jobs. She sort of modeled herself on as a sort of a female Steve Jobs. She was fated as this extraordinary testament to women, to the genius of Silicon Valley, to biotech and all of the things that were going on, completely fraudulent.

30:58But it's just her ability to – the thing that sort of in the end most struck me about the story was this was a story – and full credit again to the reporter who broke it. But this was a story that was kind of hiding in plain sight because the company reached a$10 billion valuation 15, 16 years ago, which in today's money is – that was a lot of money then. It's even more money now. And everybody – all these investors had poured money into it. Yet when we spoke to people when they started reporting that story, and I would speak to CEOs and big investors and things like that, they'd say, you know, she came to me, asked for money, asked me to invest.

31:33These were big, big tech investors, biotech investors. said they looked at it they thought this is bullshit this is never going to work it's not true it's all you know it's a pipe dream maybe you know and again to be fair to her they weren't then accusing her of fraud they were saying it's a nice idea it's a dream but i don't see the science behind it and yet somehow yet so so people who knew what they were talking about knew about the way technology works knew this was not going to fly but she somehow managed to convince a lot lot of people who weren't experts in that and invested money in her.

32:05And, you know, she defrauded them, as I say, and was finally brought down. But yeah, it's just, again, just another testament to the endless ingenuity of the American mind. And with that, that's all we have time for this week. So do join us again next week.

32:30Business is booming. Is your fulfillment ready for peak season? Switch to ShipStation now and handle more volume with confidence when it counts. ShipStation connects Shopify, Amazon, TikTok Shop, and over 200 more integrations with one platform that does it all. You can manage orders, sync inventory, track returns all automatically. Everything your operation needs all in one place. Right now, qualified shippers get a real dedicated person to get you set up and switched over for free. So when peak season hits, you're ready to go. Switch today at ShipStation.com, code audio.

33:27I adapter the consists.