It's a cult! Trump goes to Dallas

0:00Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. At PwC, we optimise the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible from blueprint to breakthrough we take you further with tech so you can out think outpace and outperform pwc so you can pwc refers to the pwc network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.

0:57I pledge to the greatest president in the history of the United States. It is a cult. I mean, it is literally a cult.

1:10Hello and welcome to the State of It USA from the Times and Sunday Times podcasts. A look at what's happening in Donald Trump's America. I'm Gerry Baker. I'm editor at large of the Wall Street Journal and a columnist for the Times. And I'm Katie Balls, Washington editor and columnist for The Times and Sunday Times.

1:52as we called it the other day, as everybody was calling it. It really was the Donald Trump show, although there were other things going on too. Tell us what you make of it and how it all went down. Yeah, it's been an interesting two days. This, in theory, is my first RNC, so Republican convention. And when I've asked people how it compares, they say, well, it's not actually at all like a normal one because this is a midterm RNC. And almost Trump has taken the branding of what is usually serving a different purpose to really just try and G up the troops and create some excitement ahead of the midterms and try and retake the narrative.

2:32And I think that last night, so the Thursday night, which was the closing evening, and we had Trump every night, but last night was Trump in advance. There was certainly, I think, a sense, or at least people around Trump were happy with how it went in the sense that I think they think that he has managed to take the narrative, has managed to frame how the Republicans want to fight the midterms. And I think it's been a useful exercise. That said, we don't have all the viewing figures yet, but on the Wednesday night, we had Trump's longest speech. It was meant to be about an hour. It was much longer than that.

3:11It was what? An hour and three quarters, I think. Exactly. I confess I only tuned in and out. So I didn't have my stopwatch. But, you know, it just seemed to go on all night, as far as I can tell. Yes, it did go on pretty long. He claimed last night it was over two hours. I think it was just under that. The initial viewing figures on that speech weren't amazing for Trump. On a Trump speech, if you look at what he was getting on TV ratings. But speaking to some in Trump's orbit last night, they were saying, well, that's one thing. And he still did pretty well, they said. But actually, we've got everyone talking and everyone is talking about Trump this week in the news.

3:48And they're particularly talking about Trump and the 5000 pledge he made to give 5000 dollars to every American if the Republicans win the midterms and retain the House and Senate. So if the Republicans win, you win with us and you get 5000 dollars. It will be called the Trump dividend. I mean, this is a good example, Casey, the$5 ,000 offer. It's like kind of, you know, it's like those ads that you sometimes see, you know, one time offer. Do it, you know, call in now to get your$5 ,000. This offer won't wait. You know, this is the kind of thing that maybe even a few years ago, sort of seasoned, rather jaded sort of people like me would have said, no, this is such an obviously absurd idea.

4:36It's a literal bribe, you know, because it wasn't sort of like part of the party's platform, let's do this. It's vote for us and you will all get$5 ,000. So it was a literal bribe, which is a questionable legality. It's completely unaffordable. The US is$5 ,000 for 260 million adults would be about$1.3 trillion, which the US is already deeply in debt. That would add substantially to the deficit as well as obviously to the debt. And on top of that, Trump almost certainly doesn't really have the ability to do it anyway because he would need votes in Congress and everything else. And yet somehow, I mean, do people just think it's a joke?

5:24I mean, everybody with any serious understanding of politics or economics just says this is madness. But are they taking it seriously? It's been a mix. I think, you know, some people are taking it seriously in the sense that they've said this is ludicrous spending. It's meant to cost, well, it's estimated to cost, there's no official figures for the White House, of course, over a trillion dollars. And this is adding, some will say, to market woes. Whereas, as you say, Gerry, I just don't think it's a policy that's very likely to happen. not least because it's at the moment speeches withstanding it seems quite unlikely that Trump and the Republicans are going to be in a position to do that at the next you know post the midterms and also even if say they retain the house you need to have every Republican we're not expecting a huge majority to think this is a good idea when you've already had some sounding alarm and and I think actually even some in the base have been saying oh this sounds a bit inflationary You've got Joe Lonsdale, figure who, you know, in the magosphere, a donor to the Republican Party saying that he, you know, wants Trump and the party to do well in the midterms.

6:34But they're concerned about the idea that you do that effectively, you know, by making decisions that aren't good for America in the long term. so I think there's been a backlash but I think the Trump view or at least Trump worldview is the backlash is what makes it good because they completely dominated the news and that is going to get them some votes yeah we should talk about I mean the other things happened too I really do want to hear about J.D. Vance who was the sort of the star if you can call it nobody in Trump's shadow could ever possibly be the star but he was the kind of second banana of the second night and the sort of the big speaker of the second night I want to hear how that went.

7:13But we just quickly on Trump, we should just your general sense of, you know, we talked about this the other day in our podcast. You know, you know, Trump's very unpopular, approval ratings in the basement. You know, is this is do you come away from there thinking, actually, this was this was a good move for the Republicans to put Trump front and center in this unusual way at a time when he's so unpopular? or is the sense that actually, oh, this could just make things even worse for us? I think I've probably come away thinking that the White House got largely what they wanted from having this midterm convention.

7:51And for all those, you know, for all those who can obviously point to these poll ratings and say, you know, Trump is not the fighting force that he was. One thing that you keep hearing is, well, what else were the Republicans going to talk about? and in the hall at least. I mean, obviously with any convention, any party conference, it is the party faithful that largely gather. But, you know, last night we had Trump asking his supporters to take a vow. Please raise your right hand. I pledge to the greatest president in the history of the United States.

8:38that loves us so much he can't even breathe that I will go out with my family, my friends. I'll do it anyway. I don't care if I'm registered or not. I'm going to try and cheat like hell like they do. And, Jerry, that there, I mean, I was stood at the gods, so a little bit higher up. And you were obviously taking, you obviously had your hand in the air and were taking a pledge. Completely. Yeah, yeah. And perhaps when I lost moments in that, you had on the same row, it was a mix of journalists and Trump supporters. And some of these Trump supporters, you know, they were screaming everything he said as soon as he said it, trying to take that vow.

9:23And as it goes on, he's obviously just having a bit of a good time himself and starts talking too quickly. And all these people here trying to keep up because they think it's a solemn vow, suddenly can't take it. So it was a reminder of how much there are, and again, this isn't the country at large, but he still has a very dedicated following who are gathering and actually very hyper in the adoration of him. There's not a following, if I may say so, Katie. It is a cult. I mean, it is literally a cult. I mean, that's one of the things I did watch Trump's pledge. and what struck me about it was, as you say, he was obviously kind of enjoying having a bit of fun with it, right?

10:06He started off, you know, I said, come on, join me in this pledge. I pledge to the greatest president in the history of the United States. And of course, but, you know, so he's kind of, and then he's sort of, again, he's certainly not self-mocking. Trump would never do that. But he's sort of mocking the whole thing, you know, and they are, many of them, It was obviously not all of them because you could tell that the actual, you know, the people who were shouting out seemed to be a minority. But a significant number of which were going along, even as he was kind of obviously sort of making fun and having a bit of a laugh, there were people there who were taking it seriously and were taking this pledge seriously.

10:45And I kind of wondered if he might actually, and because this is the kind of thing he would do, I wonder if you might say, and I pledge to go and stick my head in my gas oven right now, you know, as an act of loyalty to the greatest president. Go and turn on your gas ovens. Go and stick your head in it. You know, people would have done it. It is, you know, most of us old enough to remember who've seen cults, you know, like this. It is extraordinarily cultish. And it's, as you say, still seems to have the power to pull people along. Yeah, and leaving the venue last night, you know, you heard lots of women, because we had all these balloons drop from the ceiling, much more than you ever get at a UK event.

11:29And, you know, almost women kind of trying to claim their own golden balloon as they walked out. And as people touched it, they were getting upset because it was their, you know, memento of seeing Trump. so there's still definitely that element to it and I think probably, you know, if you look at the viewing figures is this going to be what suddenly means Trump does amazingly well in the midterms? Probably not, but did it? I think like if you speak to people around Trump there has been I think a frustration that perhaps Trump hasn't been that focused on the midterms he's been focused on foreign affairs he's been focused on the Iran war The ballroom.

12:09The ballroom. The ballroom, exactly. Kennedy Center, ballroom. Renaming things. He's been focused on lots of things, which Republicans have not thought have been particularly helpful to the mid-term fight. And at times they've said, well, is it because he doesn't have to run for re-election? He just actually doesn't care if we get, you know, battering. I think the past two days, at least they think that, you know, their fighter, even if the fighter is wounded, is now, you know, back battle ready. Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health?

12:47In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. At PwC, we optimise the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace and outperform. PwC, so you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.

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14:13Vance. J.D. Vance gave the sort of big kind of keynote address on the second night. Seemed to go over very well. It was very, it felt red and sounded very much like a kind of pre-2028 campaign speech. What did you make of it? What we said and how did it go down? Yeah, I think, as you say, it couldn't help but be being on the prism of 2028. the fact that J.D. Vance is seen as the heir apparent as you would be as vice president but also the indications are Trump would broadly support like you've had reports this week saying Marco Rubio he's seen as the natural other contender in the race has been telling questions he doesn't plan to run who wasn't there by the way interestingly Rubio wasn't one of the few cabinet members who wasn't there right?

14:56exactly he's been on a trip around South America but we had you know my colleague Max Kendix was out box popping delegates um you know this week are saying who do you who would you like for 2028 and more people said rubio to him i think he i think he stopped about 50 people so it's a really really that's that is interesting yeah yeah but i think in that room last night vance definitely did get a bit of a hero's welcome and um i think when you're looking at the various things he said and he was playing to the crowd. There was a moment which was almost too convenient where a protester held up a Mexican flag and he had a good comeback, which the crowd seemed to love.

15:42We just had a protester interrupting us and waving the Mexican flag. Well, my friend, if you love Mexico so much, get your ass over there, I'll buy you the plane ticket. and afterwards someone's saying was this a real protester because he just you know because he was so quick on his feet in response two and a half thousand journalists are now pursuing whoever that was with the Mexican flag I expect to see a full expose in the Wall Street Journal in the next couple of days that he is in fact one of J.D. Vence's roommates from Yale or something but anyway but yeah so I mean interesting very interesting that Max got that response from attendees.

16:28I did think it was one of Vance's better performances. Vance is obviously trying to

16:37Vance's candidacy has got both the advantage and the disadvantage that he's tied to Trump. If Trump's approval ratings remain at the mid-30s as they are in many polls at the moment there is almost no conceivable way that J.D. Vance can be elected President of the United States because you just can't distance yourself. At the same time, as we've said and as we've seen and saw again this week, the passion for Trump is so powerful in the Republican Party, not in the country at large, that that he's kind of he's got to stick with the closest he possibly can to Trump to win the nomination. And, you know, what I think he's clearly trying to do is to fashion his own kind of, if you like, sort of intellectual kind of version of Trumpism to sort of try and demonstrate, you know, the next phase of Trumpism, but without getting away from Trump.

17:27It's an incredibly delicate balancing act. Do you think he managed it last night? Yeah, I think what was quite interesting was a few hours before he spoke, this story broke in the New York Times, which was J.D. Vance has long had fears on the Iran war and has been working behind the scenes because he hasn't trusted what the deep state has been saying on it. Yeah, he's been going around in the last two months to all... The story did say interesting, with the permission of the president and with the permission of the Pentagon, talking directly to military commanders to find out how it's going, what's gone wrong, which I thought was interesting on a number of levels.

18:04One, as you said, we all know he opposed the war. But two, plainly, like the rest of us, he doesn't really trust what he's getting publicly from the administration. So he's going directly to the military commanders to find out what's going on. I thought that was very interesting. Sorry to interrupt. No, I completely agree. And it was definitely a story that got everyone talking here in Dallas. but the other element to it was not just the interesting information in it the one of the other topics conversation is well how did they get the information and jd vanson and his team have been accused um but of you know is he leaking to the press to make himself sound better ahead of a possible presidential bid and is this um disloyal to to donald trump of course there's a denial for their side that they they are behind this and it's pretty predictable the people he don't really like jd vance often people who think he's way too close to tucker carlson the former fox news anchor they're the ones who are quick to say you know oh he is judas um i think that when you but therefore it meant when he took to the stage you know jd vance was trying to do this dance whereby he was talking about you know yes we disagree on some things talking about charlie kirk's legacy as a reason to come together talked about the iran war to it a little bit um but was saying you know we need to kind of get past this and focus on the things we can agree on and which i think was him trying to address some of the criticism against him and then also i thought the other really interesting line was when he was talking about the democrats and said here they don't want people like me to they or they can't conceive that people like me could love usher his wife um and speaking to the sense of um you know they're different cultures and trying to address that too.

19:50And all of that felt a little bit to me like housekeeping ahead of a 2028 bit. The administration has been aggressive, very, very aggressive about investigating leaks, especially on military matters from the Pentagon, and have gone after journalists as well to find out their sources. I have a strong suspicion that the leak investigation on this occasion will not be quite as assiduous as it has been with the others. All right, so your overall impression, Katie, because we should go, I think you're probably your first, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not a real convention. I mean, I'll see you in summer of 2028 at the real conventions.

20:25But your first impression, it had all the kind of hoopla of a convention. What was your overall impression? You've been to many party conferences in the UK. What was your overall impression? Yeah, I've been to many party conferences. I've been to Turning Point jamborees in America. So I've been to the conservative movement gatherings. things um this one i think to your point it just everyone who's there who's been around is just saying it's not like a normal convention i think it felt a little bit corporate i think there were some empty seats no matter what the u.s president says but generally speaking it was really quite full it definitely wasn't you know it was more full than empty and lots of people turned out and it showed that there is still a base that adores donald trump and i think it has done something to at least lift up parts of the base and make it feel as though Donald Trump is not going to let the party go down without a fight when it comes in November.

21:17All right well we shall see it'll be interesting to see when the full ratings come in I'm as everybody people who follow us know I'm a bit of a sports nut so it was the convention coincided with night one and night two of the National Football League season and I'm sorry to say Katie I found myself watching more of that than I did at the convention but we'll see whether that was true for for most Americans and we'll see what its overall political impact was in the coming days and weeks. But Katie, good luck, safe travels back to DC. I take it that's where you're going. And from Katie and me, thank you very much indeed for listening and watching.

21:51And we'll talk to you again next week.

22:00Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech podcast wherever you get your podcasts. At PwC, we optimise the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible from blueprint to breakthrough we take you further with tech so you can out think outpace and outperform pwc so you can pwc refers to the pwc network and or one or more of its member firms each of which is a separate legal entity