What JD Vance told me: UK politics, Donald Trump and cat ladies

0:00Gerard Baker: I said in the book, even say that you quite like that you're being adversarial on this. Has your faith made you a bit softer? And I thought his answer was interesting, which was I'm a millennial. I like getting in fights on social media.

0:15Katy Balls: Hello and welcome to this bonus edition of the State of It USA with Katy Balls in Washington and me, Jerry Baker, in New York. We're with you this weekend to talk about Katy's Sunday Times interview with Vice President JD Vance. exclusive interview, Katie. You covered a lot of subjects with him during the interview. What were the, what for you were the most interesting aspects?

0:37Gerard Baker: So as you say, it's a pretty wide ranging interview. This is the first time J.D. Vance as vice president, at least, has sat down with a UK newspaper. And we had about 20 minutes to talk. And I think one of the first things was, you know, we had, there are various US issues, but if we're being honest, J.D. Vance has been did a lot of press recently for this book. And I was interested to find out his views on Britain at a time we're about to change prime minister again. We already know that Donald Trump has called Andy Burnham, who will be taking over from Keir Starmer, extremely liberal. So I asked J.D.

1:11Gerard Baker: Vance about this because J.D. Vance has this reputation of being probably the figure in the administration most keen to talk about Britain. And often when he talks about Britain, it's not particularly positive. Think about that Munich conference speech where he was very critical of Europe generally, including the UK.

1:27JD Vance: The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia. It's not China. It's not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within. The retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values, values shared with the United States of America. But he seemed to be making a real effort to be diplomatic.

1:51Gerard Baker: and he said of Andy Burnham, you know, he didn't know much about him. I pointed that Andy Burnham has had a Catholic upbringing. He was an altar boy. J.D. Vance was talking because of the release of his new book on refinding his faith. And he said he didn't know much about Andy Burnham, but the Trump administration was keen to work with whoever came their way and would make an effort to do so. But then he said that looking at British politics right now, he thinks that something is broken in British politics. And this wasn't the same old, you know, talking points of because you've gone wrong in immigration or X.

2:22Gerard Baker: He said, if you look at just the churn in terms of number 10, the fact that there have been six prime ministers in short succession, he says it speaks to the fact that something's going very wrong, something's broken in Britain, and this idea that the British people deserve better leadership. And he said he hopes they get it. And if it's not Andy Burnham, then he hopes they get someone else who is able to do it.

2:45Katy Balls: Yeah, Katie, I mean, fascinating interview. From what I read, it sounded, as you say, like a much more emollient J.D. Vance than we've been used to hearing on the subject of Britain and Europe. And I can remember, as you said, the Munich speech, but he occasionally weighs in on Britain's opposition to free speech and restrictions on free speech. He talks a lot about the collapse of European civilization and Britain being overrun essentially by people of a different civilization, by which I think he probably means Muslims. He's talked about the proudest moment for him in this administration was when they stopped funding the US funding for Ukraine, which we know is an issue very dear to the hearts of Europeans and the British in particular.

3:28Katy Balls: But this is a very, you know, he talks about in the interview about this great, you know, he has, you know, historic sort of genetic roots in Britain and he, you know, loves Britain and what a wonderful country it's always been and he wants it to succeed. I mean, don't want to be cynical about this, besides just the desire to sell his book, what was behind this sudden sort of embrace of Britain as this wonderful country?

3:52Gerard Baker: Well, I think what's rare is normally when you hear from J.D. Vance on the UK, it is a question thrown in the White House press briefing room, for example, and he's covering for Carolyn Leavitt, so you get these short bursts. And this was more of a conversation. Now, still, it was time limited. But I think he was fairly relaxed and kind of thinking out loud on it. And as you say, he was effectively making the argument that it all comes from a place of love. Some people will say, oh, you know, when he intervened on the Henry Nowak case, for example, and you had number 10 hitting back saying you're interfering in our politics.

4:24Gerard Baker: David Lammy, his friend said he'd spoken to him about that when you had that Munich security speech. But even I mentioned him, Munich security, and he said, you know, he thinks he can speak for Marco Rubio too. It's fair to say when Marco Rubio spoke at the Munich security conference, he was seen to say similar things, but much more softly, that it is because they care and also this shared heritage. And you have this thing where this Trump administration, if you think about the history of the Democrats in the White House, there's often a closer affinity to the Republic of Ireland. You know, you have Joe Biden, Barack Obama talking about their ancestral homes.

4:57Gerard Baker: I think when Rishi Sunak was prime minister, they had to do a last minute stop to Northern Ireland when Joe Biden was coming over to try and save blushes of the idea that he wouldn't be met when he was visiting. Whereas this administration has a much closer focus on the UK, on England particularly, but it's a certain type of anglophilia whereby because they think they are these shared values, they're also very willing to critique because they worry if we're going in the wrong direction, their view, then the US could be next. I think that came through a bit in what he was saying. I also think that, as you say, I asked him a bit about his temperament because in this book, Communion, he talks about various parts of his life.

5:40Gerard Baker: It's largely on faith, but naturally it ends up being quite a lot about politics. And he said he hadn't really wanted it to be a book on politics, but then various people, he said, including his wife, Isha Vance, said, hang on a minute, you're the vice president. It would be a little bit weird if you didn't mention politics. But he says one of his biggest regrets was this comment about childless cat ladies that he made a long time ago and then was dug up again during the U.S. presidential election.

6:05JD Vance: We're effectively run in this country via the Democrats, via our corporate oligarchs, by a bunch of childless cat ladies who are miserable at their own lives and the choices that they've made. And so they want to make the rest of the country miserable, too.

6:17Gerard Baker: I said, you know, well, you in the book even say that you quite like that you're being adversarial on this. Has your faith made you a bit softer? And I thought his answer was interesting, which which was, you know, he said, I'm a millennial. I like getting in fights on social media, is effectively what he said. And faith has meant that he, you know, he doesn't think it's made it softer, but he has...

6:38Katy Balls: I'm a Spanish Inquisition kind of Catholic, rather than all that social justice nonsense.

6:43Gerard Baker: No, but he did say, and if we think about it, there were reports quite recently, first in Semaphore by Ben Smith, about how J.D. Vance had given up for Lent tweeting on X, and actually it saved him a lot of time. and there are some in the White House who had thought he was picking too many fights. So I thought this line was interesting, which was, you know, he said, what I try to do, not always successfully, is, you know, if I'm going to be prerogative, I'm provocative in the service of making a point. That's really important. He said he'd learned that being provocative for a prerogative's sake is very bad in a public official, which I think applies to what he says on the UK, what he says in various areas.

7:27Gerard Baker: It does feel as though he's started to, as his time as vice president has gone on, started to think that always going out, studs up, picking these fights isn't necessarily leading to the best or kind of the engaging conversations perhaps he wants to have. So I think there is an element of that in the conversation. And on Ukraine, I think what was interesting is as you say, he has said his proudest achievement which certainly alarmed some in Europe was stopping US funding of parts of the Ukraine war. And yeah, we were speaking at a time when having recently been at the G7, you have had European leaders saying that they believe the corner is being turned when it comes to Ukraine's prospects in the war.

8:10Gerard Baker: You've had European diphthomats saying to various journalists, we believe Trump is changing his mind too. And Trump has actually said when he was pressed that he thinks Zelensky is now doing very well. So I asked Vance, well, do you share that assessment? Because I think Vance is by far seen as the most critical figure when it comes to Ukraine. And he did actually make the point that he thought, you know, Russia was having a very hard time in the war. He credited the US. So he was trying to say, actually, perhaps it's a bit to do with us, because he thinks that US and NATO pressure has made the Ukrainians be more defensive in what they are doing.

8:46Gerard Baker: And this is pushing Russia back. And Russia's problems now in the war, he said, could leave a space where perhaps you can bring the war to an end. Now, we've heard that many times before. But I think to have J.D. Vance speaking positively about Ukraine's prospects and negatively about Russia's felt significant to me, given his past comments.

9:06Katy Balls: Did he talk much about his relationship with Donald Trump?

9:08Gerard Baker: He talked a little about it. I think when you have a short period of time, you're always trying to work out where there is the most to add. But he talked a bit about working with Trump. And also in the book, he talks a lot about, you know, his previous comments where he was very anti-Trump. And one of the interesting things was his first book was Hillbilly Elegy, which of course is actually what really made him a name before becoming a politician. Then he gave an interview to a US publication, a conservative magazine, and it went viral. But he said he suddenly got all these media slots, but he started to realize it was because he was a safe conservative for them because he was seen as a conservative, but not a conservative who's nice about Donald Trump.

9:50Gerard Baker: Whereas I think he's found that transition from now being someone who is very nice about Donald Trump to being his, you know, right-hand man, receives a lot more criticism. And therefore, he was saying with this book, people have kind of already decided they hate it or like it much more to do with who he is. But I said to him, you know, has Donald Trump read your book, you know, given they work very closely. And I'm not sure how much of a book reader Donald Trump is. He said he has not read the book, but the day before I interviewed, Donald Trump and him had had a long conversation about it. Donald Trump had been watching interview clips of J.D.

10:24Gerard Baker: Bantz talking about it and had congratulated him on the high sales, which is perhaps the metric. He said Trump knew his argument, but I think it's always a matter of debate how religious Donald Trump is.

10:37Katy Balls: Finally, Katie, so just give us your overall impression. What was your, I think it probably was your first conversation with J.D. Vance. Is that right?

10:42Gerard Baker: Yeah, this is the first on the record conversation I've had with J.D. Vance in terms of an interview.

10:47Katy Balls: Well, I mean, you know, he strikes. I've met him once or twice. He doesn't come across in public as a charming, beguiling figure. Were you charmed or beguiled by the conversation?

10:58Gerard Baker: I think what you can say for J.D. Vance, I think he has become one of the most polarizing figures in U.S. politics. Actually, at times, rivaling Trump for this. when you speak in certain groups. He is the one that the base seem to still like the most. Obviously, there's lots of talks about him for 2028. J.D. Vance's view is he's not going to talk about whether he's going to run for the presidency until the midterms out of the way. And he's going to try and focus on doing his job. But everyone thinks he is probably going to run. And the base certainly seem to think he most speaks for them over someone like Marco Rubio.

11:31Gerard Baker: But the question is, you know, the voters at large, is Marco Rubio going to have more wide appeal is J.D. Vance too divisive? And I think we see in the book, in the many podcast appearances, and a bit of how he appeared in this interview. I think there is an effort when you think about the cat lady comment and things like that to try and show that, you know, yes, he is someone who gets into a lot of fights and, you know, comes across as, you know, harsh in what he says. But I think you almost get the sense they're trying to put a softer version out. And obviously that could be read through the prism of 2028.

12:05Katy Balls: That's fascinating. because if they do recognize that he has, that suggests to me that they recognize that he does have a bit of a problem in terms of the way people perceive him and if they're trying to correct that, well, then good for them. And it'll be interesting to see yet another version of J.D. Vance as the next few months and years unfold. Well, anyway, congratulations on the interview, Katie. It was a fascinating interview. You can read Katie's interview in the Sunday Times and get a better sense of who J.D. Vance is and who he's likely to be.

12:38Thank you.