680: Psychotherapist, Glenn Hutchinson, on Why Good People Cheat: What Infidelity Reveals About Decision-Making

0:27Welcome to the Strategy Skills Podcast, where strategy partners teach you the tools and techniques to solve mankind's greatest problems.

0:46Welcome to the Strategy Skills Podcast. I'm your host, Krista Farova. And today we have with us a very interesting guest and very interesting topic. So we have Glenn Hutchinson, who is a psychotherapist, and he actually built the personality science behind the tests used by Match.com. And we are going to talk about unfaithful minds. And hopefully, Glenn also will give us some insight on how that also translates to behavior in the workplace. And also what is going on in people's minds when they are unfaithful, cheating, and so on. Glenn, welcome. Thank you for having me. Very interesting area of expertise.

1:29How did you even end up focusing your life's work on this? Well, I have a general adult clinical psychology practice, but over the years, it just seemed like one of the things that people were asking me the most about was it was help trying to understand why they or why their partner had been unfaithful. And they were usually very dissatisfied with the kinds of answers that they had gotten and self-help books. So I decided to dig deeper and write a book that really goes into the underlying psychological processes that play a role in it. And I think something else that was in my mind, as I may, too, that was important is just that, you know, the way that psychologists view behavior, that is the scientific community, it has changed a lot over the last 50 years.

2:20I imagine some of your viewers are familiar with Daniel Kahneman and heuristics and biases and things like that. And so a lot of that had not filtered into the way that people in popular culture think about these things. So I wanted to bring that to bear on this issue. So psychological processes that play a role. Let's talk about it. What do people don't understand that they should understand? Well, there's a lot. I think that, you know, subjective experience is very deceiving. We feel like we are in control of all the, we know what all the relevant variables are in terms of our behavior. We feel like everything is just sort of a conscious decision that we make and that we were just totally in control.

3:07And in my book, I actually talk about that it's sort of like a factory manager, maybe in the late 19th century, who had all the dials and control knobs in their hands and could really turn things up, turn them down and really control what was what was produced. It kind of feels that way with we feel that way with respect to our behavior. We feel that we are in total control. But the reality is, is that there's so much else that's influencing us so many factors that we're not aware of. And I think it's even people who know that it's true that there are all these unconscious processes playing a role, we forget about it.

3:45And so I thought it was important to really spell out how these unconscious processes do influence us. Definitely. So unconscious processes, let's dive into it. What are some of the key things we need to understand? Well, one of them, again, as I said, I want people to just understand that our subjective experience is very deceptive, that our behavior is more complicated. It comes from a deeper place than we realize. So on one level, I just want people to be aware of that. There are, I think it's useful to be aware of some of the very specific ways that this occurs, right? And so I think that I often just begin by trying to maybe give people a sense of the breadth of the kinds of unconscious processes that our brains are capable of.

4:36And so to do that, I might say, I don't recommend this, but all of us have done it. We drive without paying attention. So maybe you're driving to work and you stop at a stoplight. And it's almost like you wake up and you think, where am I going? And you think, oh, I'm going to work. And you've been not paying attention at all for the last 10 or 15 minutes. And yet you've been making the correct turns and you've been doing everything right to go where you actually are trying to go. and think about what your brain has to do to pull that off. I mean, outside of your awareness, your brain is monitoring all the other vehicles and the pedestrians and the bicycles and listening out for cars and horns.

5:13It's making decisions about whether to speed up or slow down, change lanes, turn, whatever, right? So there's just a million cognitive events that are going on in your head that you're not aware of. And when we are interacting with people in a social setting, our unconscious mind is absolutely doing most of the navigation. So we are continuously changing the course of our conversation, what we say, how we say it, our facial expressions, our nonverbal behavior. All of these things are happening at lightning speed, far faster than we could ever make conscious decisions about how to act. So there again, our unconscious mind is really in control.

5:55another thing our brain is kind of always doing is assessing what other people are thinking and feeling right now we sometimes do that consciously to be sure but we do it unconsciously as well and and we regulate what we say and how we say it based on on those assessments so that's just sort of I say those things just to sort of give people a sense of the the scope and the the variety and range of kinds of things, and those don't even begin to capture it, right? So emotion is a whole different area. Most of the emotion that we experience occurs beneath the level of our awareness. It influences our thoughts and decisions and behaviors, and we're not really even aware of it.

6:38So there are also, of course, many very specific unconscious processes, if you want to talk about, that we can, that play a role in infidelity and in many other kinds of behaviors. Definitely. Let's talk about it. What are unconscious processes that play a role in infidelity? Okay. So one of them, there's a whole class of unconscious mental events that have to do with concepts or categories getting activated inside of our head, and we don't realize it. And this has wide, really far reaching implications. OK, and just one example I'll give you that people are probably familiar with is implicit bias.

7:23Right. So you're interacting with someone, a colleague or maybe an employee, and they say they're a different ethnicity than you are. You're not thinking about that there. But the fact that they're standing in front of you, if they're Asian or African-American or Caucasian, whatever, that concept is activated in your head below the level of your awareness. And you also have associations with that concept of their ethnicity. And they may be positive or they may be negative. Whatever they are, though, they're going to influence the way you interpret what this person says. And they will also influence your assessment of that person.

8:09So there are actually many manifestations. Others, people maybe have heard of confirmation bias. That's another example of a concept gets activated and then it kind of controls your perception of other things going forward. but so to bring this sort of in a direction that's relevant for for infidelity i'll say i want to talk about the fact that psychologists in the scientific community have been aware for almost 100 years that people frequently engage in behavior that violates their values their own values and they they don't realize that they're doing that and one of the main reasons that this happens is that every behavior, like every object in the world, can be categorized or classified in many different ways.

9:00So a mentor, old mentor of mine used to make this point with chocolate cake, right? So if you are at a wedding or some other party, and a person offers you a piece of chocolate cake, you're likely the category that gets activated in your head is likely to be something like delicious dessert. So you may not think delicious dessert consciously, but that got activated and then you eat the cake because that's a delicious dessert. But in another setting, say you're coming home from the gym and somebody hands you a piece of chocolate cake, a different category is probably going to get activated. It might be unhealthy or fattening food.

9:36And so then you reject the cake. So the concept that gets activated in your head provides a lens through which you view this thing and the cake actually becomes two very different things in those different contexts. So the way that this plays out and results in a person engaging in behavior that violates their own values is this. I'll illustrate it with a woman who I call Madeline. So Madeline is an advertising executive. She's very talented. She loves what she does. She's very skilled at coming up with creative ads that make people buy snack foods that are not good for them. And she loves what she does.

10:20She thinks of her work as great marketing. That is how she's always thought of her work. She also has a 10-year-old daughter. And when she's at home and she is helping her daughter organize and publicize a bake sale, the concept of great marketing is not activated in her head. She's not at work. She's in a different setting. And she would never dream of suggesting that they mislead people about the nutritional value of the food that they're selling. If she did, she would immediately feel guilty. She would feel like she was being deceitful or fraudulent. But the fact and that's because she doesn't have the lens of great marketing that kind of protects her from from those those realizations that she is, in fact, being deceitful when she when she fudges the truth about the food.

11:12So, now here's how it applies and it can apply to infidelity. I'll give it two ways. So, imagine somebody who's in a serious relationship and they go to a party and they meet somebody that's incredibly attractive and they really get engrossed in the conversation. and maybe an acquaintance of theirs is standing 20 feet away and and this person catches um their eye and they they seem to be giving them a funny look and so the person who's sort of flirting with um it becomes uncomfortable right so it the the fact that this person caught their eye it may be activated inside of their head some concept like sleazy or inappropriate and so they immediately become uncomfortable and they step, they, you know, step it down.

12:01They don't, they don't flirt anymore. But if this person didn't get a cue like that from an acquaintance in their field of vision, then they may just think they're being friendly. And so then they may escalate and they may flirt more and eventually they may begin to cross some boundaries. So an example of this with actual infidelity, I'll give you that now. And for people who are therapists, they've seen this a million times. For people who are not therapists, it's sometimes actually hard to believe. But I call this woman Angela. She's an example that I often use. And she and her husband came to see me after her husband discovered her infidelity.

12:45So Angela had been traveling to another state. her hometown about once a month for a year. And she was going there to help her parents pare down their belongings and move into a smaller place. But while she was there, she ran into a guy that she had known in high school and had had a crush on. And the two of them began to have an affair. So after her husband discovered that she and her husband came in to see me. And as they were telling me about what had happened, Angela was very matter of fact about her relationship with the guy that she had a sexual and romantic relationship with him. And at some point, I summarized what I'd heard, and I referred to her affair.

13:32And when I said that word, I mean, her jaw dropped to the floor. She stammered, and she said, there is no way I had an affair, I am not the kind of person who does that. What I had was a unique situation, a very unusual relationship. And so this is, I think this is what happened was that somehow Angela had created this category, this lens of an unusual relationship or a unique situation. And it allowed her to be aware of her overt behaviors and yet somehow not see what anybody else could see, which is that obviously she was being unfaithful. Interesting. Very interesting that you see it that way, because to me, it sounds like making excuses.

14:20Yeah, it does. So people do make excuses. I mean, this is where it gets complicated. So people do make excuses, right? Especially when they've been unfaithful, when they've gotten caught. On the other hand, we underestimate the power of these phenomena that occur inside of our heads that we're not aware of. Like the power of categorization, the power that these things provide a lens that really alter our perception in ways that are difficult to believe. They are. there. I'm just going over my own history of knowing people who have been unfaithful to other people. And it is very common for them to make those kinds of excuses.

15:03But I wouldn't say that they truly had a value of not hurting other people. I think they may have value that other people cannot hurt them. Other people must be faithful to them. But I have never seen with one example where they have a value that they must not hurt other people where they really take it seriously that you must not harm other people so i think you're raising a really good point um so there are many people who are unfaithful just because they're they're kind of lousy people and they don't care they're very selfish right so that's that you're absolutely right that there are many people who do that.

15:42There are, however, many cases where that's not true, where people come in for therapy, they haven't gotten caught, and they are bewildered by their own behavior. They at some point realize kind of how off track they've gotten, and they're really trying to understand it. So, yeah, I don't, I have no idea what percentage of cases are people who just don't care versus are the people who are really remarkably deluded. But at least in a therapy setting, we do see the latter very often. And maybe it's also because only caring people would come to you when the other person doesn't know because they feel guilty and they want to find a way to make it right.

16:32And I do. Yeah, I mean, they certainly feel guilty. Yeah, I have people who come because they some people do it over and over. Right. And they do feel immensely guilty. So you're you're absolutely correct that that many people do it because they don't care about their partner or because they're just very narcissistic and selfish and don't care about other people in general. And they come to therapy because they're guilty. I'm really writing and thinking about the cases where that does not, it is not what's going on. And it, but when you encounter it, it's a pretty remarkable thing. And yet, and it's, you know, we have no idea how, what percentage of people are, you know, have no insight versus ones that just don't care.

17:27Have you noticed that people who cheat are also people who often lie, who do not value honesty as much as other people who do not cheat? Yeah, I mean, I was there's probably some correlation there. I mean, I think there's no doubt about that. I mean, again, a person who is generally, you know, willing to lie and has no problem with that. I mean, of course, they're going to be more I assume that they're going to be more inclined to cheat and just not care. On the other hand, it's interesting how specific how situation specific behavior can be. So there are many people who may be dishonest in one area, but are not dishonest in others.

18:12And so I think, yes, in general, I think that people who lie a lot, of course, they're going to be more likely to be unfaithful. faithful. But we do see a lot of people that are, that may lie and be dishonest in one part of their lives, but really don't do that in others. Glenn, and someone who cheats on a spouse, do they also usually will have certain behavior at work that you would consider cheating? Well, that's kind of what I was, what I was getting at a second ago, where I would say sometimes that is that that's true. And sometimes it's not. Sometimes you have people who are there. They're, they really are just they are comfortable lying and cheating in general.

19:01And so, yeah, they do that everywhere they go. But there are other people who really do. It's very important to them to see themselves as very honest, upstanding people. And there may be one area of their life where they are not living up to that, but in the rest of the areas of their lives, they are honest and straightforward. I also think what happens is that people can, I'm sure you're familiar with motivated reasoning, right? So in some area, a person who's generally very honest and values honesty, there may be one area where they allow themselves to convince themselves both consciously and or unconsciously that doing something that's convenient that gets them what they want is okay.

19:54But that's not necessarily something that they do all the time or in every context in their life. So I just think it just depends on the case. Have you noticed any similarities in terms of the other side? So the spouses who have a cheating spouse, anything, for example, childhood trauma, and so on, any similarities about them? Yeah, I don't really think so. I don't think so. And this, I think, goes to the fact that people, what drives infidelity, it often is factors that have very little to do with the spouse. And I think that's maybe one of my main messages here is that I do see a tendency for people whose partners have cheated on them to jump to the conclusion that, and this is understandable, that their partner doesn't love them.

20:56And also that there's something maybe wrong with themselves, that they're not attractive enough or they're not smart enough or their personality isn't good enough. And I think that there's just no evidence that that's the case. And it's usually not even the case that their partner, the one who cheated, they don't know that person doesn't think so either. And I think that this is I think there may be a gender difference here. I think that we know that in general, when women are unfaithful, they report that they did so because there was they were missing something emotionally in their marriage. and when men are unfaithful that's not the case they it's usually more just a sexual opportunity um and so men most men who are unfaithful report that they were happy with their marriage prior to the time all the way up until they were they were unfaithful and so um it really when the when a particularly when a man is unfaithful there's probably nothing about the wife that had anything to do with it.

22:01I mean, sometimes there is, of course. And of course, there's some marriages where the marriage just disintegrates and they're both unhappy. And, you know, it's just a question of who's going to cheat first. But there are many situations where both partners are happy in a relationship and the guy goes off and cheats and it really had absolutely nothing to do with any characteristics of his wife. For someone listening to us right now, and let's say they are currently selecting a partner to marry, and let's say for them, loyalty is very important. How can they select a person who will never cheat?

22:42Well, you can't. I don't think, I think anybody under the right, under certain circumstances, I don't know that anybody is invulnerable. I would say, you know, I'd be wary of people who think that they're invulnerable. They could be invulnerable because I don't think they are. We see people with very genuine, very conservative values who are unfaithful. The rates of people who are very conservative and have very strong family values, their rates of infidelity are not a lot lower than other people's. So I think that there are a few things that we do now. OK, so.

23:26People, if you grew up in a home where one of your parents was unfaithful and you were you knew that they were unfaithful, you are at higher risk. It doesn't mean that you're at high risk. It means that but it does mean that you're you're higher risk than other people. And the reason we assume is that just having grown up and being aware of that, infidelity is not so unimaginable to you, right? So if you grew up in a home where infidelity doesn't happen and you're taught that it's wrong, it feels like this line that you could never cross. But if you grew up in a home where people did cross that line, well, it just even though you believe it's wrong, there's some part of your brain that accepts it as a part of reality.

24:13Maybe. I mean, there's just something that we don't know exactly why. But, you know, I think that's probably what it is, is that it just it's more a part of their their their reality than it is for other people. So that's a risk factor. But again, I would never say don't date somebody whose parents were unfaithful because there are some people whose parents were unfaithful. They go the other way. Right. They they they end up with more. So in general, what if your parents were unfaithful, most people end up with a more accepting attitude of infidelity. But there are a few people who end up with much more negative attitudes toward infidelity.

24:52So what I just said doesn't apply to everyone. But most people whose parents were unfaithful, they're at somewhat higher risk. Another thing is people who have had sex with many, many partners before they get married. They are at much greater risk. That probably is because it's just normal for them to periodically establish a new emotional and sexual relationship with somebody. And getting married doesn't change that. They still have this pattern that and if it's a really longstanding pattern, there may be just sort of a mindset that they get into periodically. And that may be something that they really have to battle when they're married.

25:39I have seen guys who came have come to me before they got married. They were wanting to get married and they had a long history of this, of being with many different women. And they were worried about it. I mean, they were they were being proactive. They were very worried about it. Like, I mean, will I ever be able to not do that again? And so I do think that's something that you, you know, to be mindful of. The third thing, if you're I don't if you're I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of attachment, but people who are anxiously attached, they are more likely to be unfaithful because we assume we think that the reason is that periodically they begin to feel uncomfortable or insecure in their marriage.

26:27They wonder if their partner is still committed to them. And so it seems that they go out and try to find a new relationship preemptively so that they don't get left alone. But I mean, all of these things are what can be handled to some degree. Right. I mean, I think if you are anxiously attached and you know that, then what matters is that you establish very open communication with your partner. so that when you're beginning to feel uncomfortable, you can talk to them about it, that you know you can talk to them about it. And so you don't end up allowing your worries to spiral inside of your head until you get so upset that you go out and start looking for somebody else.

27:12Glenn, so you gave us some tips on how to find a loyal partner, a loyal spouse, future spouse. Any other additional things you can share for people to have to look out for if that is a critical thing when you are looking for a spouse? Well, I think certainly you want to be with somebody who is willing to really talk on a very intimate personal level, right? You want someone who really appreciates the very honest, candid kind of conversation. I think if you're in a relationship that's more just based on going out and having fun together or partying together, you're more at risk than if you have a really intimate, close, emotional connection with somebody.

28:01So I certainly think that to feel like you have some sense of security, that your partner's not going to cheat. You need to feel like you really know who they are and that they share who they are with you on a regular basis and that you share who you are with them and that there's a lot of mutual support there. So I think that's a very important and probably obvious thing to look for.

28:32And for the other side, if any of our listeners went through this experience and they need to heal and trust people again, what would be your recommendation on how they can heal faster? And can someone even heal? Yeah, people can heal. It takes time. I don't think there's a way necessarily to do it quickly. It varies for people, right? And people have all kinds of different reactions. Some people, if they discover their partner has been unfaithful, it is a genuinely traumatic event. For others, it, you know, maybe surprisingly, it's not. I mean, it makes them angry. It makes them furious. And they may want to end the relationship, but they don't.

29:11It doesn't seem to have the same sort of traumatic effect for them. So people are different. But I think most everyone can heal, but it does take time. They need somebody to talk to that they trust. And I guess one thing I would say is if somebody discovers that their partner has been unfaithful, it's important to not make any rash decisions. I mean, I think that's usually the general recommendation is, you know, take a deep breath and find somebody you can talk to. Be careful who you talk to, because if you decide to stay with this person, some people may not be able to forgive that that person once they know that they cheated on you.

29:52Right. And this tends to often be an issue with parents. Right. So if you if you go to your parents and say, my partner cheated on me, you might forgive your partner, but your parents may never forgive your partner. So you have to be careful. But it just depends on the case. So you want somebody to talk to, to help you that you can process your feelings with. But be careful who you choose, because that person may really that person may have a hard time forgiving your partner. What can you tell about the cheating partner if the other spouse finds out they apologize and so on and come clean versus fight and attack and lie?

30:33In general, obviously, the first case, the person who's willing to be honest and candid is more likely to be somebody you can work with who is more often somebody who's willing to be honest with themselves and honest with you. You're going to be able to have a better sense of whether they're really regretful and whether they really are serious about not doing that again, if you want to stay with them. But it's not always the case. There are some people who are very good at apologizing and then they go on their way and do it all over again. So it's not it. It doesn't automatically mean that this person is never going to do it again just because they're honest.

31:21But it's certainly a good sign. A person who is just very defensive. I mean, that's really hard to work with. I mean, you really don't know what's going on inside their head. They might be sorry and might just be overwhelmed by that. And that might be why they're being defensive. But it's just hard to know if they won't talk to you about it. It's really hard to know. That's a much more difficult situation. Glenn, and the situation where, for example, when you were growing up, you saw one of your parents cheating that creates a negative program in your head that runs for the rest of your life and somehow causes damage to your life.

31:54How can someone, if they realize they do have a program like that running in their mind and subconscious mind that we discussed today, what is the best way to rewire, to rewrite that programming? So, yeah, I wouldn't describe it quite that way. I don't think there's a program in their head that's running that is going to make them unfaithful. I think that it's simply that that it doesn't feel as, you know, it doesn't feel as as impossible, as as unimaginable to you if your parents were unfaithful as it does to someone else whose parents were not unfaithful. And I think that for somebody who is aware that, yeah, their parents were unfaithful and from a statistical standpoint, that makes them at a higher risk.

32:46I think they just want to be very careful to check themselves and make sure that they're not allowing themselves to have inappropriate boundaries with people they find attractive. And I think that, you know, that they really want to avoid situations that might make them vulnerable. Right. And that differs by person. But everybody has certain situations where they might feel tempted. And so for a person who is at a little bit higher risk of infidelity, it's all the more important for them to avoid situations that tempt them and put them at risk. and when i asked this question i didn't mean that that will be the program they will have it depends on the situation it can be you cannot trust man it can be a woman so for example a girl sees her mother being hurt by her father this way and she thinks okay my mother didn't work my father supported us financially therefore i must always work i must never take time away and rely on my husband, even when I give birth and so on.

33:56So there may be all kinds of programs. I was asking more about given your area of expertise, I wanted to get your advice on all kinds of negative programming, not even related just infidelity that people can, how could someone rewrite the programming? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the first thing you got to do is become aware of it, right? So most of those things that are so much a part of us, and you're absolutely right, those are many Many people have those kinds of things. You have to have some self-awareness, enough awareness to realize that I am operating based on this sort of idea that is creating problems in my life.

34:38And so it's for someone who has that awareness. They need somebody that they can talk to to work on that with. These things, people do get past them. And I think most of the time it's through through therapy, although, you know, there are probably no doubt people who do it without therapy. But it takes time to really fully become aware of how this idea is manifesting in your behavior, in your life. And then you have to make decisions about what. So here is this idea that I've got in my head. And if I maybe it's not true, what kind of what do I think actually is true? And if I if I act based on the thing that I think actually is true, what does that mean?

35:28How do I need to change my behavior? And it just takes time to do that. And I think that most people need a friend or a therapist to kind of walk through them, walk through all that and all those steps with them. But people do it. People do that all the time. Glenn, and as you were studying and researching it, working with clients, if you look at yourself when you were just starting out and now, what surprised you the most in learning about how it all works and what is happening in person's brain? Well, I think that like the scientific community in general, we have increasingly come to appreciate the extent to which our behavior and our thoughts and our decisions are influenced by unconscious processes.

36:18I think it's the really powerful and pervasive role of these unconscious processes that because they're unconscious, we're not aware of them, right? And so we only become aware of them through the science that gets conducted. There are people who have theorized about the unconscious for centuries. I mean, Freud did so and his contemporaries, but they didn't have any evidence. And their ideas about the nature of unconscious processes were pretty far off the mark. But they were correct about the general thesis that unconscious processes play a huge role in our thoughts and decisions. And so I think just really coming to terms with that and doing so kind of vis-a-vis all the processes that science has actually revealed is something that's fascinating and sort of always surprising, I think, to me and to others.

37:17Based on your observations, what patterns do you see in terms of how the other spouse usually behaves when they find out? Yeah, the reactions are kind of all over the place. As I mentioned earlier, so for some people, you know, this is a genuinely traumatic event. So they will, they will wake up in the middle of the night having nightmares about, you know, the discovery that their partner was unfaithful. I mean, they truly actually have symptoms like PTSD. And you have other other spouses that that that just don't have any of that kind of stuff. Right. They're angry, but it's it's not it's they don't perceive it as like a life altering event.

38:01So there's just a huge range. I mean, it's this you know, it's the same way we respond to all kinds of things very differently. I mean, it's, you know, some people love motorcycles and other people would never imagine getting on a motorcycle. Right. And so we just have all kinds of different reactions. Some people, of course, the instant that they learn that their spouse is unfaithful, they walk out the door and that's the end of the relationship. Right. So for some people, it's that simple. You cheated. We're done. But I don't see those people because they're divorced. So you don't come to me for as couples anyway.

38:37I have had men who came to me. I'm thinking of one in particular where his wife had just left him and he was trying to figure out his question. He was trying to understand how he was so uninsightful as his behavior with this other woman was evolving, that he he was one of the people who really couldn't believe how self deluded he'd been. how he had not foreseen what the consequences would be. But anyway, you just never know how people are going to react to any of these things. And in terms of behavior of the other spouse who finds out, do you often see because of some cost, years into the marriage or decades, children, all kinds of things like that, they stay, but marriage becomes like a zombie.

39:31There's no life in it. And everyone is unhappy. That happens sometimes, for sure. There are people who stay together just for financial reasons. I don't think that that's the way, certainly not the way it always is. And I don't think that it has to be that way. But yeah, there are cases, no doubt, and we've all known people like that, where it was a marriage of convenience at some point. But I do think that that many, many couples are able to move beyond the affair and continue to have a very good relationship. I know we already spoke a little bit about it, but just for somebody who may be listening to us right now, who feels that they never can forgive, for example, what would be your advice?

40:24Well, it would depend on the case. Right. I mean, it depends on I mean, if you're with somebody who's cheated multiple times and they've said that they weren't going to do it over and over and they did again. Well, I mean, I wouldn't encourage you to believe that they're not going to do it again because they probably are. It just depends on the case. Right. But if but there are instances where, you know, where where people like the guy I was just mentioning, you know, he he was a guy. It was very important for him to see himself as a and he did see himself as a very upstanding person. And I think he was in all other respects.

41:03And he just allowed, you know, motivated reasoning can be a powerful thing. And he just allowed him to go down a pathway. And he regretted it, you know, forever after that. And so and if you're with someone like that, then I think it certainly makes sense. If you love them, they love you. It makes sense to try to fix it. Is there something about this that you still want to understand? You're currently researching, trying to understand. Well, yeah, I mean, there's always, you know, there are questions. I mean, there are so many. But I think I guess I'm interested kind of right now and just what comes to my mind is there I think there's some sex differences that I think create some misunderstandings between men and women.

41:56And I think we we do live in an era where it's popular to sort of minimize and pretend that there are no sex differences. I think I suspect that there are. And I think that that leads to some misunderstandings. And I think that I think if we can understand those differences better, that maybe we can sort of help people more and also decrease the pain that certain people are experiencing. So that's an area of curiosity they have right now, I would say. Glenn, thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed our discussion. where can our listeners learn more about you by your book and anything you want to share and of course if you have any final thoughts you want to share as well be free to share them that will um no i think it's a fascinating thing i i think that it's you know it's some of the ways that our unconscious mind works is are pretty hard to even believe it's a different realm but our unconscious minds think very differently their conscious selves do um so i um i think it's fascinating.

43:01I think a lot of other people will find it fascinating as well. I have a website. I'm actually redoing it now, but in the fall, I hope that it's very updated and we'll have more information if people are interested in following up. Thank you for having me. Sounds great, Glenn. Thank you so much. What is your website? It's glenhutchinson.net. Perfect. Glenn, thank you again so much for being here. I really enjoyed our discussion, And I really hope that none of our listeners actually going through this right now on either side. And our podcast sponsor today is strategytraining.com. You can get some gifts from us.

43:39You can get the overall approach used in well-managed strategy studies at firmsconsulting.com forward slash overall approach. You can get an example of a resume we use with our clients at firmsconsulting.com forward slash resume PDF. and you can also get a copy of one of our books. It's called Nine Leaders in Action and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash gift. Thank you so much for tuning in and I'm looking forward to connect with you all next time.

44:17Thanks for listening to this episode of the Strategy Skills Podcast. Stay up to date on all of our latest training by signing up for our email updates on firmsconsulting.com. We look forward to helping you develop your strategy, critical thinking, decision-making, and communication skills next time here on the Strategy Skills Podcast.

44:53Thank you.