Totally Toronto - Destination Special with Paul Theroux and Caroline Aksich

0:02Paul Theroux: Today's episode is supported by Sani. Sani is an award-winning family resort in Halkidiki, Greece, set in an ecological reserve where pine forests meet the Aegean, with five award-winning hotels, a marina and more than seven kilometres of beaches. If you've listened for a while, you'll know how much I love it. I stayed at Sani Asterias last year with my own family, and it manages that rare thing of being genuinely luxurious, yet wonderfully easy with children. And 2027 is looking even better, with the first phase of Sani Beecher's transformation and 119 brand new suites at Porter Sani. There's great value for families too, including those with teenagers, at Sani Asterias to guest pay and everyone else sharing stays free while Porter Sani and Sani Junes offer savings for teenagers as well.

0:56Paul Theroux: So now's a brilliant time to plan your 2027 summer. Book early and save up to 15 % on Sani Sweet Collection stays but only for a limited time. Head to sani-resort.com to find out more. That's sani-resort.com to find out more. Terms and conditions apply. Thank you so much to Sani.

1:27Paul Theroux: Hello and welcome to the Travel Diaries podcast. I'm your host Holly Rubenstein and today we're heading across the Atlantic to Canada for a very special episode dedicated to one of North America's most exciting cities, Toronto. I have such fond memories of my time in Toronto. I remember being really struck by the incredible diversity of the city, the fantastic food, the different neighbourhoods and of course that extraordinary skyline overlooking Lake Ontario. But Toronto is also one of those cities that I think can be a little overlooked by British travellers. You know, We might dream of New York or plan a Canadian holiday across the Rockies or Niagara Falls, but Toronto is absolutely worthy of a trip in its own right.

2:16Paul Theroux: And with direct flights from the UK, it's a wonderfully accessible North American city break. It's Canada's largest city and it's often described as the world inner city because nearly half of its population was born outside Canada. It's home to more than 140 diverse neighbourhoods, each with its own character and cultural influences. It's a city shaped by people from all over the world. And that extraordinary diversity can be felt not just in its food, but in its art, music, architecture and everyday life. There's also another side to Toronto that I think really surprises people. alongside that spectacular urban skyline there's also this incredible connection to nature just a short ferry ride from downtown you have the toronto islands a collection of little islands on lake ontario with sandy beaches leafy cycling paths and beautiful green spaces i remember taking that ferry myself looking back towards the skyline it's one of the loveliest ways to experience the city and to feel really far removed from the bustle of downtown when you're only a few minutes away.

3:21Paul Theroux: Another thing I love about Toronto is that it's a city with something happening throughout the year whenever you plan to visit from the Toronto International Film Festival and Pride Celebrations to the Caribbean Carnival. It's got a jam-packed cultural calendar and then its food scene is also having a real moment with the latest Michelin Guide recognising the extraordinary range of restaurants and culinary talent across the city and surrounding region. So today I wanted to take you beyond the obvious tourist attractions and explore Toronto through the eyes of two people who know it in very different ways.

3:55Paul Theroux: First, I'm joined by Caroline Aksich, an award-winning Toronto-based journalist, contributing editor at Toronto Life magazine and author of Froma's Easy Guide to Toronto, Niagara and the Wine Country. She is full of recommendations from the restaurants worth booking to the neighbourhoods, hotels and hidden gems that make Toronto so special. And later in the episode, I'm joined by one of the most celebrated travel writers of our time, Paul Theroux. Paul's latest book, True North, takes him on an extraordinary journey across Canada. We'll be hearing his reflections on Toronto and how the city has evolved over the decades and what makes it such a fascinating place to explore.

4:34Paul Theroux: Whether you're planning your first visit or, like me, a long overdue return trip, I hope this episode inspires you to put Toronto firmly on your travel wishlist. Let's buckle up and get started. Here's Caroline. Caroline, welcome to The Travel Diaries. It is so lovely to see you coming to me from Toronto itself.

4:53Hannah McCulloch: It's a beautiful sunny day here in Toronto. We've had this extended fall that's just been absolutely gorgeous and I really hope that some of your listeners come and visit one day.

5:02Paul Theroux: I miss Toronto. It's been a few years since I was there and I'm just so looking forward to bringing it to life with somebody who is so passionate about it as a city oh well I can't

5:14Hannah McCulloch: wait to share all my favorite little cafes places parks and everything with you I mean for somebody

5:21Paul Theroux: who's never been to Toronto how would you describe the city to them I really think that Toronto

5:29Hannah McCulloch: looks very familiar and very foreign at the same time you know it's cameoed in so many movies and played so many different cities. It's played New York in American Psycho. It's played Chicago in Chicago. It's played Baltimore in The Shape of Water. And, you know, depending where you are, it can really look like different places. But in the same block, you can have Victorian houses, you know, Edwardian storefronts, along with like a glass skyscraper and a brutalist monolith. So it really is a hodgepodge. In the sort of chaos of everything working together, maybe cohesively maybe not I find joy yeah that's such a good way of describing it and it's got all

6:08Paul Theroux: these lovely little pockets and all these lovely little neighborhoods is there one that you spend

6:13Hannah McCulloch: the most time in yourself funnily enough I live right downtown like smack in the middle of district which is not where I imagined I would live but you know I absolutely fell in love with my house and I can't leave it that being said my what I like about being central is it's very easy for me to get to all these little neighborhoods and none of them are particularly far. I spend a lot of time over in Trinity Bellwoods, which is along Queen West. It's a very residential neighborhood with some very cool commercial strips along Queen West. We have, you know, lots of like independent boutiques, high-end cafes doing like fabulous croissants.

6:55Hannah McCulloch: And then if you continue along to Ossington, which is our coolest of the cool strip. Perhaps it's outcooled itself at this point, but there's, you know, fantastic restaurants. You know, a lot of them have Michelin recognition or Michelin stars at this point. And the lineups can be absolutely insane on a Friday of everyone trying to get in. Toronto, Torontonians love to eat. Not that we're a nation, although we think we perhaps should be treated as one. If we had a national sport as Toronto, it would probably be dining out.

7:25Paul Theroux: Okay, right. Well, we're going to have to deep dive into the dining a little later. But first, just while we continue to set the scene, can you give us a sense of Toronto's geography and how the city's laid out? You mentioned Queen West there. Are you able to kind of just explain what that means and kind of how it fits into the context of the city?

7:44Hannah McCulloch: Of course. So Toronto is very much a grid. It is easy to get around Toronto. You know, there it's not too complicated so Yonge Street which is one of the longest streets in the world I believe runs north south and that is our dividing line so everything that is west of Yonge starts as one you know one queen west two queen west whatever you know on the other side you start with the east and then we go down to the lake and then all the way up into the suburbs so it for me when I was when I first moved here because uh as I mentioned earlier I'm from Montreal originally when I first moved here I used the CN Tower as my guiding star a lot of the time it's pretty much smack damn in the middle almost on the lakefront so you sort of orient yourself around that if you pop out of a subway station if you see where the CN Tower is you're like okay

8:32Paul Theroux: that way is south so the CN Tower is obviously on the the list of every first time visitor to Toronto. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Do you think it's worth it? I thought it was really fun. Had a meal spinning around with great views. What do you think of it? What's the locals perspective?

8:52Hannah McCulloch: The CN Tower. Okay, so it was once the tallest freestanding structure in the world for about 30 years. We are no longer...

8:59Paul Theroux: Isn't that extraordinary to think because it doesn't feel that tall now.

9:02Hannah McCulloch: I know. We are building condos that are almost as tall as it at this point. Exactly. But it is a fantastic view and a fantastic way to orient yourself around the city. I do recommend going up, but I do have some hacks for your listeners.

9:18Paul Theroux: Oh, please.

9:20Hannah McCulloch: Yeah. Did you know there's a restaurant at the top of the CN Tower, the 360 restaurant, which rotates like once in every hour and change or so?

9:27Paul Theroux: well that's where I ate there I ate there when I was there um had I think some shrimp cocktail as we slowly spun around um it was it was kitsch and it was fun and I think it's like a great

9:42Hannah McCulloch: touristy thing to experience so if you pay for a regular ticket to the CN Tower it's $40 or so. But if you go for lunch, which I believe it's like$75 for a two course prefix right now, you get to go up to the CN Tower for free. You don't have to pay your admission. And you get a private elevator on the way down. So you're paying$30 more and you're getting lunch. And if you're lucky, you get a window fronted table without children screaming or maybe with a couple of children screaming near you, but not in front of you. And it's a rather nice way to experience it.

10:21Paul Theroux: What a good hack. I mean, why wouldn't you then have the lunch? So worth it.

10:27Hannah McCulloch: I will preface this. It's not an amazing lunch, but, you know, it is a tourist trap. Like, you are trapped, but it will be fine. It will be a perfectly passable lunch.

10:39Paul Theroux: What other touristy spots in Toronto should a first-time visitor still make sure that they get to see? Like when you come to London, you want to see Tower Bridge, Big Ben, like you do want to see those big sites as well as then getting the like hidden gems and insider tips. What are the big ones in Toronto that you tick off?

10:59Hannah McCulloch: I think our aquarium, which is actually at the foot of the CN Tower is phenomenal. It's just really impressive. There's this fabulous tunnel that you go through on a very slow moving sidewalk and you watch the giant sharks swim on top of you, whether you have kids and are a family or even if you're you're solo adults it is impressive and it is a fun way to spend an afternoon especially if the weather outside is being uncooperative

11:22Paul Theroux: I think that that's definitely one so I so agree and are there any other experiences that if you have say a visitor come to see you in Toronto that you always like take them to do

11:36Hannah McCulloch: so we we have some nice museums we have the ROM which has you know a great collection of natural history things. You know, they will have art exhibitions as well. We have the AGO, which has a wonderful collection of Canadian and Indigenous art. I think that's a very good place to go if that's of interest to you. You know, you can see art from the 1800s, you know, settler art, see how people used to live back there. If you really want to connect with a little bit more of Canadian history. I like to walk around U of T. I think maybe for people coming from England, it would be less exciting. You know, all the Victorian architecture doesn't wow you as much as it wows North Americans.

12:16Hannah McCulloch: But U of T is a beautiful place to stroll. Like, you know, they've recently redone a bunch of their communal outdoor spaces and it looks stunning. It looks absolutely stunning. So what is U of T? Oh, apologies. It's the University of Toronto. It's our big, big downtown campus. And so you have these beautiful buildings, a lot of them from the late 1800s. They have some modern buildings as well. And they planted a lot. The big quad at the center of the campus, which is all public access, they planted all these beautiful indigenous gardens with native flowers. And so it's just so stunning. It's a wonderful place to stroll.

12:54Paul Theroux: So if you want to have some outdoors time, that's a great place to head to.

12:59Hannah McCulloch: Yeah. And also you can cross through the campus because it's all open to the public. You can cross through the campus on your way to places so if you're connecting from let's say downtown and heading up to yorkville which is our tony sort of fancy rich neighborhood with lots of you know chanel louis beton all that stuff you could walk through u of t so it's a great place to sort of add to your to your itinerary in in a transitory sense where would most visitors like where are most of the hotels are they in downtown uh we so we have a few different nodes of hotels we have um quite a few hotels in that tony neighborhood i was speaking about yorkville so we have a four seasons over there we have a hyatt we have uh the hazelden those are and they're all going to be quite pricey up there um but you know wonderful experiences uh then we have another cluster down near our financial district and downtown.

13:56Hannah McCulloch: We have a St. Regis down there. We have the Saint Germain. We have all of those. Saint Germain is a domestic hotel brand that came out of Quebec. Quite nice. And then over on King West, King West is our club land, which is where I live, right in the smack, you know, right in the middle of the craziness. We have a couple of nice hotels there. We've got an Ace, which is a U.S. brand. And we also have a one hotel, another US brand, but they're all very nice. And each one sort of has its own energy, whether you're looking for a very chic, refined experience, or you want, you know, that boho feel or a bit more of an artsy kind of crazy hotel where that always has live music and parties, we have the hotel for you.

14:41Paul Theroux: Amazing. I love that caters to all tastes and wants. You mentioned that eating in Toronto was like a national sport and my memories of Toronto are of wandering through food markets getting you know street food going to really dynamic and interesting restaurants you're a big foodie yourself what do you think makes the food scene in Toronto so exciting

15:18Hannah McCulloch: So Toronto is a mosaic. Like we have over 180 different languages spoken here. So you can imagine how that translates to the multicultural fabric of our city. Over 50 % of Torontonians were not born in Toronto. We are hugely multicultural. And then, you know, layered on that, we have, you know, first generation, second generation. So we have a lot of very authentic food from all around the world. And then we have these second generation chefs who grew up in Toronto who are starting to mix and match. So whether you want a taste, you know, pho that will bring you straight to Vietnam or you want like a very contemporary one that's mixing flavors with different cultures, we've got you covered on both ends of the food spectrum.

16:05Hannah McCulloch: And Torontonians just, they love to eat. Everyone knows the names of the chefs. Everyone's excited about what people are opening. You know, they pay close attention to those things.

16:15Paul Theroux: So what are the kind of hot places that if we were visiting next week, you'd say we must try and get a reservation?

16:23Hannah McCulloch: Oh, there's so many. And that is one thing I'm going to caution your listeners with is for the hot places, you do need reservations unless it's a walk-in only establishment. And reservations can sometimes go like that. Really? Yeah, I tried to get a reservation. Oh, my gosh. I tried to get a reservation. There's a place called the Doulis, which has one star. It's a tiny room on a residential street. They've been doing great work for over 10 years. It's a husband and wife. They kind of do, you know, these tasting menus. It was a little Spanish-informed when they started. Now it's more contemporary Canadian tasting.

16:57Hannah McCulloch: I tried to get a reservation. I spent one minute calling my friend to confirm that the date worked. All of the reservations were gone because they drop once a month on the 15th of the month at 6 p.m., gone in minutes.

17:10Paul Theroux: Okay, so you've got to put it in your calendar, set an alarm if you're going and you're planning a trip. Yeah.

17:15Hannah McCulloch: And be more organized than me in the sense that you should have talk already up on your screen, loaded with the date you want so you can just check out immediately. And any other places that that should be on our hit list? Yan Dining Room is really fun. So Eva Chin, who's originally American, she married a Canadian and ended up here in Toronto. She was helming Momofuku and then the pandemic hit, I think, two weeks into her tenure there. So she has now become a true advocate for Toronto. She loves the city. She's opened her own neo-Chinese restaurant that only operates three nights a week. And it operates out of the back of one of the classic Chinatown restaurants.

18:01Hannah McCulloch: So you walk in and it looks like a classic Chinatown restaurant that's been around since I think the 80s called Hongxing. And in their private dining room, she operates this special supper club three nights a week. And she does a tasting menu that changes monthly of neo-Chinese food that sort of brings in things like, you know, a Italian noodle that she'll cook in a wok because, you know, the wok brings this fiery heat that, you know, Italians would never get on a noodle. And so you have like the most chewy al dente pasta with a sauce that blends in a little bit of fish sauce into, you know, like it's just.

18:40Paul Theroux: Oh, wow.

18:41Hannah McCulloch: It's so exciting. So fun. And Eva's there bringing you the dishes, each course, talking about the importance, the history, where she got the ingredients. Some of them will be from little farms near Toronto. Others she buys from the little the little ladies along in Chinatown who sell their vegetables that they grow in their garden. And just it's a fabulous experience. And it's very communal because everyone in the room is dining at the same course at the same time. So in a big city where you can sometimes feel alone, it feels very intimate.

19:09Paul Theroux: Wow. What a wonderful recommendation. I need to put my flight just to go there, I think.

19:16Hannah McCulloch: Eva's just doing special stuff. She's amazing.

19:20Paul Theroux: Is there a kind of signature Toronto dish that people order?

19:26Hannah McCulloch: You know what? We have a real love of Jamaican patties. We recently had a mayoral election. And as part of the mayoral election, I definitely saw people comparing how the two candidates ate Jamaican patties to make sure that they really liked them and they could handle the heat. No way. What is a Jamaican patty?

19:47Paul Theroux: Is it like just a burger?

19:49Hannah McCulloch: So Jamaican patties, Toronto has a large Caribbean community. We actually have a lot of, we have a little Jamaica. We have a little, basically, whatever country in the world you can imagine, just about, we have a little that. We have a little Jamaica. We have a little Italy. We have, you know, Koreatown, China, blah, blah, blah. But little Jamaica is over near Eglinton. And it's a really important, I guess, brick in the foundation of our city. And people love Caribbean culture, Caribbean food. And Jamaican patties are one of the things that like no matter where you are in the city, you can you can probably find one being sold at a corner store or wherever.

20:33Hannah McCulloch: It's a flaky pastry dough. I think it's usually made with like a tallow. And inside you have a beef like it's a ground beef type stew that's loose with like a lot of scotch bonnet flavor. Wow. So it's kind of like a pasty, I guess, would be like, is that is that a pasty? I am so sorry. Please do not include that in the cut.

20:57Paul Theroux: Yes. Yeah, exactly. That does sound like that. But not for the faint hearted then.

21:05Hannah McCulloch: Torontonians have a very high spice tolerance.

21:08Paul Theroux: Today's episode is supported by Una Italian Hospitality. You know how much I love Italy. And it's summer I'm always happy to return to once summer is over. An autumn weekend in Rome, a winter city break, a few days tucked away in the Tuscan countryside. There's so much to enjoy throughout the year. Una Italian Hospitality is a collection of hotels, resorts and retreats across Italy, with local food, culture and a real sense of place at its heart. For a city escape, Trastevere Roma Una Esperiense puts you in one of Rome's most atmospheric neighbourhoods, with local recommendations and their Rome by Romans experience to help you get to know it more personally.

21:50Paul Theroux: Or there's Principe di Piemonte, una esperienza, in Turin for an elegant northern Italian break. And beyond the cities, countryside stays such as Ralea Villa Grazianella, una esperienza, set in the hills of beautiful Siena near Montepulciano, offer the chance to slow down with wine tastings, walks through the hills and time to properly switch off. Discover your next Italian short break with Una Italian Hospitality at www.unaitalianhospitality.com. Thank you to Una Italian Hospitality.

22:41Paul Theroux: No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Friends.

23:05Paul Theroux: Okay, so I've landed in Toronto. I've never been before. I've got my first day to get my bearings in the city what do you think I should do

23:17Hannah McCulloch: okay so it's your first day you've landed I think you you have to walk and you you have to explore Toronto at least the downtown core is pretty walkable and if you're not walking it's so easy to hop on this our public transit you don't need any special cards or tickets you can tap on with your credit card. Once you tap on, you're good for two hours. You do have to keep tapping with the same card, but it'll remember and it won't charge you multiple times. So, you know, I would say, first off, don't rent a car. Second of all, be comfortable with using public transit and wear good walking shoes. Okay.

23:56Hannah McCulloch: Let's get you fed. Let's send you over to the St. Lawrence Market, which is our big market with tons of vendors. You know, they've got different food vendors, different market stalls selling fruit, selling pastries. And so wander there. Very photogenic, isn't it? Oh, super photogenic. The classic things to get are a pea meal sandwich from Carousel Bakery. That's one of the iconic Toronto dishes. Pea meal bacon is that back bacon. so it's not fatty at all it's actually pretty lean and it gets fried and it comes on a fluffy Portuguese bun with cheese and mustard fun fact Canada is one of the largest producers of mustard seed in the world so we make really good mustard noted uh then I would send you to get some oysters

24:47Paul Theroux: after what do you feel about excursions from the city so okay with I think that the city actually

24:59Hannah McCulloch: has some wonderful excursions you can go on within the city. We have these Toronto islands that are really close. It's about a four-minute water taxi ride, 10-minute water ferry ride over, and it really feels like you're escaping Toronto. They have beautiful beaches with actually very good quality water to swim in. They have great bike paths, these really cute restaurants that are sort of tucked in like copses of trees. It's a wonderful escape. And there's even on Center Island, I think there's like a petting, I don't know if it's a petting zoo, but like a little farm for kids to walk around and see the animals, like a tiny amusement park.

25:43Hannah McCulloch: It's super family friendly. And for those of you who are not traveling with a family, there's also on the other side of Clothing Optional Beach. So depending what you're going for, they have of whatever you want. So that's a great excursion without going too far. I totally agree.

26:00Paul Theroux: And I'm always a big advocate of ferry rides because I do think that getting out onto the water just gives you a different vantage point of the city as well. And you get some great shots. We did that ferry trip. When you're going out, you're looking back, you can see the CN Tower and the skyline. And it's, you know, it's lovely to get some photos and to spend some time out there. It's a great kind of half day. Yeah.

26:25Hannah McCulloch: Like I always say, go up the CN Tower, see the city, look down on the city, get your bearings. Also see how big Lake Ontario is, because I don't think a lot of people realize that a great lake truly is great. It is enormous. And then take the ferry to the island where you can look back onto the cityscape. like an independent hotel i love is uh the drake they also display a lot of really cool contemporary canadian art uh it's it's a fabulous place to just be visually um it opened i think in 2008 i'd have to fact check that but it sort of kick-started queen west as this destination of cool um and they also have a music venue in the basement that's hosted mia and like all these other big, big name musicians have played there before they got big.

27:17Hannah McCulloch: I think Arcade Fire played there. And then upstairs, it has this crazy rooftop bar, the Sky Yard. So it's a fabulous place, even if you're not staying there to visit, either to go see a show or to go have a drink. um Jen Egg is one of our our famous Toronto restaurateurs um she uh owns Rum Bar she owns Vendetta she owns um General Public all if you choose one of her restaurants it's gonna be a banger like it's it's always good and you know it's always wonderful to support a female restaurateur as the industry is predominantly male who else like I love Patois I think Patois is like particularly Torontonian in the sense that it's a Chinese Jamaican fusion and it's so fun it's like just a riot to be there the owner is of Canadian sorry the owner is of Chinese Jamaican descent and so that's really an expression of his cultural heritage on the plate nice oh there's

28:21Paul Theroux: just so many places to well to eat for a start I mean gosh absolutely mouth-watering I absolutely

28:29Hannah McCulloch: love Lao Lao bar. Lao Lao bar is always a good time. So it's a Lao food. And I don't know if you've had it, but super fresh, lots of herbs, lots of strong flavors that are integrated. But Lao Lao isn't just about the food there. The vibe is always immaculate. Great cocktails, a room that's always full. I think because their price point is like very reasonable. So it's just everyone wants to go there everyone's having a great time and I strongly recommend it because nothing goes better with like you know a bit of spicy food than a strong cocktail well I'd like to wrap up with a

29:14Paul Theroux: few practical questions if that's okay when would you say is the best time of year to visit Toronto

29:20Hannah McCulloch: I love the fall I love right now when the leaves are changing and the air is crisp you know it's It's absolutely my favorite season to be in Toronto, a wonderful time to hike, to do sports, to go on bike rides, which is something we haven't talked about. Toronto has amazing bike infrastructure and we have city bike rentals that are very easy to access. So it's a wonderful way to explore the city. We have rivers on both sides of downtown with paths along both of them so you can go up and down. And in fall, when it's about, you know, 15 degrees out, it's the perfect temperature to do something like that.

29:55Hannah McCulloch: So, you know, enjoying the waterfront is definitely a big thing. People forget that Toronto is a water city because it often doesn't feel like that, but it totally is. Our parks are phenomenal. We have huge parks and we have a huge network of ravines that connects a lot of the parks and a lot of this infrastructure. 17 % of Toronto is ravine and green space. What is a ravine then? It is exactly what you're thinking. We have these depressions that go in and they've been left as green space because of flooding reasons, I think, originally. So it's something that needs to be maintained. But they're full of wildlife.

30:33Hannah McCulloch: Like I have seen deer and coyotes walking home. And as I said, I live right down in the middle of everything. You can pass a coyote like downtown. It's absolutely insane. Keep your distance. Be respectful. like they tend to be desensitized to humans, but I think it's very, the best thing is to treat them like they're wild. But like, I think that is the sign of a healthy city.

30:56Paul Theroux: That the wildlife is flourishing alongside the metropolis, essentially. Exactly. What would you say is the biggest mistake that a first time visitor might make anything to avoid or definitely not do? If you're not

31:12Hannah McCulloch: going out of the city for a day trip do not rent a car getting around this city with a car is absolutely painful save yourself the headache and do not rent a car unless you're going to niagara for you know a day trip or you're going to muskoka which i did actually i went to niagara

31:31Paul Theroux: one of the wonders of the world niagara itself wasn't high on my favorite places list but the Falls were an incredible experience and definitely something to do, I would say. And then Muskoka has suddenly become this hugely kind of famous and popular destination, having, I guess, be the hidden gem for everybody else. Is everyone going there now?

31:57Hannah McCulloch: So for your listeners who don't know Muskoka, it's our cottage country. It's beautiful, like huge rocks, lots of rolling hills. Like when you imagine Canadian wilderness, this is what you're imagining. You know, it's a far cry from Banff. That being said, we think it's beautiful and wonderful and it's the closest thing we have to an escape. So if you're looking for that Canadian nature escape, rent a cottage, you know, drive two and a half hours, three hours north of the city and boom, you're having a grand old time swimming in beautiful lakes.

32:29Paul Theroux: a really cool dual center trip actually to do finally then what's the one piece of insider advice you'd give to someone planning their first trip oh one piece of insider advice

32:47Hannah McCulloch: you know what torontonians don't necessarily seem friendly at first blush you know everyone has a place to be and seems a little, a little inapproachable, but most of them are actually very friendly. If you're lost, if you need direction, if you need an opinion, you know, most people are happy to chat and give you direction. And we love when tourists come to visit our city because we're always surprised that people want to come and see what we have. You know, we don't feel, we feel, I always say Toronto is a great place to live, but it's not necessarily a place that tourists always flock to but if you do want to see what a world city is like and I mean that in the literal sense we are a world city with you know a little bit of everything from everywhere you know this this is a great place to explore and a great place to eat

33:35Paul Theroux: Caroline thank you so much for sharing your Toronto Travel Diaries with us it has been so much fun to absorb your energy and enthusiasm for your city thank you so much for your time

33:46Hannah McCulloch: thank you so much for having me

33:51Paul Theroux: a huge thank you to Caroline for that fantastic introduction to Toronto I don't know about you but I'm now desperate to return preferably with quite a few restaurant reservations already in the diary now for the second part of today's episode we're going to look at Toronto through a rather different lens I'm joined by Paul Theroux one of the world's most acclaimed travel writers and Louis Theroux's dad whose remarkable career has spanned more than six decades. He's the author of classics including The Great Railway Bazaar and The Mosquito Coast and his latest book True North sees him turn his attention to Canada traveling thousands of miles across the country by road.

34:31Paul Theroux: Paul first visited Toronto back in the 1980s and has returned many times since so I was fascinated to hear his observations about how the city has changed, its multicultural identity and the people and communities that make it such an important cultural centre. It's a very different perspective from Caroline's, but one I think that adds another layer to our understanding of this extraordinary city. So, here's Paul.

35:02Paul Theroux: Paul, welcome to The Travel Diaries. It is truly an honour to have you on.

35:09Caroline Aksich: Well, thanks, Holly. It's a pleasure to be speaking with you.

35:11Paul Theroux: Today, we're going to be actually transporting ourselves to Canada because our focus today, my focus is on the fantastic city of Toronto. And Canada has been your major focus of late because your latest book, True North, has seen you turn your attention to Canada, a deeply personal connection for you. Tell us about why this book was the book that had to be written next for you?

35:40Caroline Aksich: The reason it from writing, well, I've had several reasons. One, it's a road trip. And my two previous books, Deep South and On the Plain of Snakes, Deep South was Southern States of America. And on the Plain of Snakes was Mexico, both road trips. I wanted to write a road trip trilogy about North America. So Canada was the next obvious place to go. My other very, very important reason was that my ancestors went to Canada in the 17th century. So it's about my family. It's about my ancestors. It's about my grandfather who was born there. And it really is about Canada at a pivotal time because Canada is being attacked by the American president, being enjoined to become the 51st state.

36:25Caroline Aksich: You know, when you go to a country, if there's a crisis of people have things on their mind, it's a wonderful place to meet people, to talk. They're more open when they're in a time of crisis. So it was very helpful to me. Hard for the Canadians, good for me. And I decided to just make an enormous road trip and went from basically from the top of Newfoundland in the east to Vancouver in the west and never took a plane. I just drove the whole time, thousands of miles and through cities, plains, prairies, mountains, snow, sunshine by the coast. So it was really a wonderful trip. And the book has recently been published.

37:08Caroline Aksich: So I'm very happy about the whole thing.

37:10Paul Theroux: Did you, in driving rather than taking any flights, get a feel, I guess, for the just gigantic scale that Canada has?

37:22Caroline Aksich: Yes, Canada is larger than China in an area, larger than China. Amazing to think of. Its population is 40, 41 million. It's the same as California. So you think of just this relatively small population spread over this enormous land. But a lot of it is just a barely inhabited Siberia type place. And most of the people live near the American border. I stuck to the populace, places where I could speak to people.

37:49Paul Theroux: Get under the skin. And talking of the different metropolis that you honed in on as part of this trip, one of them which features in the book is Toronto, which is our big focus today. I know that it's a city that you first visited back in the 80s.

38:08Caroline Aksich: Toronto has exploded. It's the largest city in Canada, and it has everything. The first thing you notice in Toronto is that it's multiracial. And people from all over the world have come to Canada. Canada is very hospitable to migrants. One fifth of the people in Canada were born in another country. So not only is it multiracial, but the migrant population is very recent. I loved Toronto for its accessibility and for the fact that I like meeting writers when I travel to a country. And Toronto is full of writers. I found it one of the most convenient places to be in terms of meeting people, opinion formers, writers, journalists, thinkers, a very important aspect of Canadian culture, the First Nation people.

38:57Caroline Aksich: And the proponents, or let's say the interpreters of First Nation people, the Indigenous people, live in Toronto. So I met them and talked to them. So Toronto is very important in my travels for True North because it's home to so many people who are important to Canada. I'm not particularly interested in politicians. I only met a couple in the whole trip, but I met a lot of writers, painters, musicians, poets, you know, so all of that was important. So Toronto was important in that way. Anyone who comes to Toronto for the first time will notice that the centre of Toronto, the downtown, are old buildings, some of them 19th century buildings, or buildings from the turn of the century of the 20s and then surrounded by towers, huge glittering tower blocks of apartment houses.

40:03Caroline Aksich: They spread in all directions. Toronto is an enormous city and it's not just as the large population, but it sprawls. So the greater Toronto area, they call it the GTA, goes everywhere. And the funny thing is that there are parts of Toronto that are rustic and rural. They would be in the north and, you know, in the northwest and northeast, but they're rural. It's the edge of the greater Toronto area. But Toronto also encompasses areas which have ethnic populations, which are discreet in terms of ethnic individuals living in a kind of what I call an ethno bubble or an ethno burb, where all the people in that suburban place, that town, are from one racial group.

40:50Caroline Aksich: And that's interesting, too, because it shows that Canada is very tolerant of migrants to the point where they don't insist on naturalizing them or absorbing them, Canadianizing them. And they let them go, you know, a migrant go their own way so they can do whatever they want in terms of language and culture. And that encourages people. So people live there as though they're living in India.

41:21Paul Theroux: And as a traveller visiting then, you know, visiting the city, experiencing this level of multiculturalism, do you feel like it makes it a richer experience? Are there particular areas that you found particularly fascinating that really you were able to experience a particular cuisine or a particular, you know, you had interesting cultural moments that you found unexpected.

41:52Caroline Aksich: Yes, to all of those points. As a visitor, as a visitor to Toronto, you have the privilege of seeing multiculturalism. And as you suggested, multiculturalism produces great food, great music, movements in literature, in poetry. And so you're in a place which is a kind of a mosaic of many cultures. And because Canada is a very humane place, very tolerant place, there's much less friction. And so anyone going there would feel Canadian hospitality, that sense of accommodation. And so in all aspects of life, so if there's the concerts, orchestral music or clubs exhibit a lot of variety in music, in culture, in painting, and the restaurants to an immense degree, Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Southeast Asian, Mexican, what have you, all sorts.

42:54Caroline Aksich: I mean, because a migrant brings a culture with him or her. And so it produces a great variety of experience. This also, I mean, Canada has symphony orchestra, it has great museums, it has sports teams, it has a great baseball team, it has a great basketball team, it has hockey. So all of that, and it's concentrated in this enormous city.

43:22Paul Theroux: Let's dive into a few specifics, if we can. You are known for, you know, walking around neighborhoods and getting under their skin. Is there a particular neighborhood in Toronto that you would recommend for somebody to make sure they visit?

43:42Caroline Aksich: I would say the ideal neighborhood would be central, central Toronto, would be downtown Toronto, as near as possible to the concert halls, the sports arenas, and particularly the museums. I would say if you have to just take a taxi in a city, it's kind of annoying. But to be in a place where you can walk from one place to another, walk to a hockey game, walk to a basketball game, walk to a concert, walk to a museum. I stayed in a very central place. I mean, it was the only place in Canada where I stayed in a fancy hotel. So I stayed in a place called the Femont Hotel. It's a famous hotel. But there are plenty of hotels that are more modestly priced than the Fairmont.

44:29Caroline Aksich: I would say stay as central as possible, rather than stay in an outlying place or a particular neighborhood. Downtown Toronto is a neighborhood. And what I never write about, but what I always do, is go to museums. And, you know, no one wants to hear about your experience in a museum. But Canada's museums are important because when you go to them, you begin to understand Canadian history and culture. And I got clues to that for my book, for my True North book. But I loved the collections. I mean, they have everyone. They have Picasso. They have Francis Bacon. There's two great museums, the Royal Ontario Museums and the Art Gallery of Toronto.

45:14Caroline Aksich: The Royal Ontario has indigenous art, natural history, a lot of Chinese stuff, the Baroque period. And they have a lot of, it's a lovely, elegant building, walking distance from a lot of hotels. So I spent a lot of time there. I actually spent there two days. I went one day, saw it, then went back. I had something to do, then I went back the next day. The other is the Art Gallery of Ontario. And you see painters that you might never have heard of, Canadian, but are great. There's one called Alex Colville. He died probably 20 years ago. And he was from Nova Scotia, lived in a place called Wolfville.

45:54Caroline Aksich: He's a realist painter, but almost surrealist. They have lots of his paintings there. They also have, you know, everything, Chagall, Giacometti, Barbara Hepworth, Picasso, as I said. So I would say those are the places I've gravitated to. I loved walking to them. You walk through gardens to get to them. You walk through, you know, past cafes and so forth. You can buy cannabis in Canada. So you'd walk by, buy some cannabis. It's legal. And then go to a museum. then there's lots of places to eat around they have um cafeterias in these places or there's there's restaurants nearby so you're there but in the vibrant heart of the city and then there are funky little you know middle-class neighborhoods that are very pleasant with just bungalows in them but i would say downtown i would say because you want to maximize some someone going to toronto might only be there for four or five days or maybe a week and you want to see as much as possible and I and there's a lot to see I went to a hockey game in Winnipeg you could go to a hockey game in in or a baseball game depending on the season or a basketball game and that would be a thrill and that you can do all those arenas are centrally located so those those those are sort of my general recommendations and it's also a city from my experience at least

47:20Paul Theroux: as well of great kind of culinary diversity and amazing restaurants and food markets. Did you have any particularly memorable food experiences while you were there?

47:36Caroline Aksich: Oh, yes, I did. Yeah. Well, first, traveling on the road, you don't eat very well. You're eating and basically in a diner or just a truck stop or a coffee shop. So I always look forward to a good meal in the evening. And in Toronto, it was the Indian restaurants. I mean, I just love them. And they have the Punjabi, South Indian, Bengali. They're just wonderful. And some, they have the whole assortment in one. I can recommend one. It was called Kazana. and they had I've been to India a number of times one of my favorite meals in India is in Kochi it used to be called Cochin fish curry, so Malabar fish curry so I had the Malabar fish curry at Kazana but you could go and find I mean if you just looked up best Indian restaurants in Toronto you'd see a list of 20 or 30 of them, they're all good and they all have their virtues but I don't mention Kazana because I had a great meal there but and I went back I did the same in other places too in other Canadian cities I went to the Indian restaurant and liked it it's a great eating city it's famous for its restaurants and its reputation is is well deserved the the eating experience in because of the ethnicity the the multiple cultures that exist there and thrive live there, create this tremendous cultural experience.

49:08Paul Theroux: Thank you so much, Paul, for giving us your insight and your time. It's been a real pleasure to have you on The Travel Diaries. Thank you.

49:18Caroline Aksich: Thanks, Paul. It was a pleasure to speak with you.

49:23Paul Theroux: Ah, thank you to Paul and thank you to Caroline. If today's episode's inspired you to plan a trip, I'll include links to many of the places we've discussed all in the episode show notes and on my website, thetraveldiariespodcast.com. And for even more inspiration, neighbourhood guides, events and practical advice, do head to DestinationToronto.com. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and I'll see you next week.

50:04Paul Theroux: Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work, around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

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