Cynthia Erivo on Elphaba’s growth in ‘Wicked: For Good’

0:00From KCRW Santa Monica and KCRW.com, it's The Treatment.

0:13Welcome to The Treatment. I'm Elvis Mitchell. My guest is an Emmy winner, a Tony winner, a Grammy winner, an Oscar nominee. Nominated for the Golden Globe for two consecutive years for the same role. The first time that's happened, even though her new movie is called Wicked for Good, apparently for the first time she feels wicked in it. My guest is our old friend Cynthia Erivo. First of all, congratulations and Happy New Year to you. Thank you so much. Happy New Year to you. So lovely. You so often play characters who project one way to the public, be it Aretha Franklin or Harriet Tubman or Elphaba here, and who is somebody completely different.

0:53And I wonder what it is that brings that back to you so often. I think I like the duality of that or the multiplicity of that, that no one really is ever just one thing. And I think that there is something about people who are perceived one way by others, not really by their own fault. And sometimes because of what they want to show and what they want to share and are something totally different and feel comfortable sharing other parts of themselves with other people. I just think it makes for complex people, complex characters, and means that I get to dig in, I guess, you know? So many of these women are people who present in an enormous way as these public persona.

1:39I mean, a big intimidating way, in fact. I don't want to say vulnerability, but there is a side of them that is considered and very thoughtful. They're often thought of as being these characters who just go through life in a very sort of brazen and bold way. Yeah. I love that you use the word vulnerability because that's the word I would use. I think I always, it was the same when I was looking at Harriet, the thing that interested me the most was how vulnerable she was. that for me, I thought, what a brave thing to do to come past the heartbreak and the hurt. This woman was, you know, a young woman who was in love.

2:17And I think sometimes we forget that she was not in her 40s when all of this happened. She was a young 20 something year old who was called upon to do something because that's what felt right and good to her. but she had to do it through loss and heartbreak and still managed to to do that so my the interesting thing to me is is the vulnerability that it takes to to get to that point and the same with Aretha how vulnerable she can be when she's with her family and how sometimes when it fell apart she would still have to keep moving and the same thing with with Elphaba in front of everybody she seems to be big and brave and wicked even but actually she's just trying to figure it out and I love these women who on the outside don't necessarily show up as vulnerable beings but then you have to find it you know and wicked for good you really get a chance to show the emotional cost of what that presentation is for Elphaba don't you yeah yeah I do and I I really appreciated this part of the movie for that because in that in the first movie she's really kind of just finding out who she is and in this second installment you get to sort of deal with the decision she's made and how lonely it is for her and what it does to her to have to deal with what other people think of her and how she can surrender to it and how she has to rebuild herself and I just thought it was just it's a wonderful um sort of arc to to explore and I don't know I don't know if I've ever said this to anyone but I actually really I really feel for for Elphaba I have a great deep empathy for her in this part of of the movie but just because I think it actually gets too much for her she she finds herself at her weakest moment and I think people don't even realize just how weak she feels or how helpless she feels and it all sort of falls apart and then she has to sort of put herself back together again.

4:26And there are just sides of her that we don't get to see in that first movie that sort of show up in this second part that are far more adult and lived in. And I just loved being able to show that of her, yeah. I have to say all the emotional colorations you get to bring to this role this time around, they're much subtler. There's not as big a sort of leap. and I was really impressed by how incremental evolution is for the character and how you play that. Thank you. I mean, it wants to be human, you know? The way we grow, the way we learn, the way we adjust to certain things, it's very rarely big, giant shifts.

5:05Small things that show how we are. You know, when we're in conversation, the way you figure out if someone is, you know, feeling a certain way is, you know, the little fur of a brow or catch of a breath or, you know, a wink or a tear in the eye that doesn't quite make it out of her eyes. I think that that's where you really discover the complexities of a person's emotions. And I guess maybe that's just something I like to do, find the quieter ways of exploring an emotion. I think that you can get to like the deep well of sadness and hurt and pain and in other ways and different characters but I think she's quieter with how she feels I think she's quieter with the way she shows it and I think it's a harder stretch to to get to and I like the the challenge of being able to show those emotions in a in a quieter way I feel like that's how we are as humans.

6:08We're not always good at sharing it loudly, you know? It's The Treatment, my guess, is the incredibly talented and lauded, of course, Cynthia Reaver, her newest role, is in Wicked for Good. You'll see the show at kcow.com slash The Treatment. It's so funny, Cynthia, because I can't think of anybody else who at such a young age has played so many women who become icons in kind of real time in the stories that are told about them. Does anything about that intimidate you? Because these are people, and we've talked about this before, who people feel that they own in some way. And so you're bringing your own special take to that.

6:45But each of these women we're talking about, be they real or coming from the pages of some place, also people that folks feel a real sense of proprietorship about. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily intimidate me. I think I'm intrigued by these women because I want to know where the human begins and then how they become the icon, you know, because the icon doesn't exist immediately. The human comes first. And so I think I'm deeply interested and deeply intrigued by what the human, where the humanity lies first before they become the icon. because I think they become the icon because of the human, because of the humanity that they have.

7:29And so I'm interested in that first, which is probably why it doesn't intimidate me because I'm actually looking for the smaller part of them, you know, which makes up the whole. It's so interesting in this character because there's a kind of a birth and then a kind of a death and a rebirth, isn't there? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. She goes through this sort of, it's like a phoenix, you know. she sort of rises out of ashes she falls and rises and it's really quite wonderful to experience and one of my favorite moments is the very that sort of last moment you get to see of her when she lets the hat go it's that sweet look that she gives to that hat and it's almost a goodbye to a thing that she once knew and and held really closely and actually it came out of something that hurt and became something that made her feel strong and now she doesn't need it anymore and then when she sort of walks off into the distance in her sort of billowy blue outfit there's something much freer about her than there ever was and she has to find her way to that yeah as you said that i thought about the first time we see her in that class when there's almost the same kind of exhilaration of finding this thing she's very different points in her life obviously between those two points but she finds herself with those people and then she finds herself alone and i just thought for me there was something really i think kind of simpatico about those moments of exhilaration that elphaba feels in those moments the moment at the end of of the wizard and i at the very end where she's looking out into the distance and it's into the middle of nowhere it's actually her looking not realizing but looking to where she's actually going to end up going and that very the one of the last frames you get in in for good is her looking back in the other direction from where she was looking at.

9:20They are companion pieces in that they are moments in her, it's sort of like a flash in her life where she sees where she's headed. And when she gets to where she's headed, she has to look back at where she's been. There's this wonderful arc that happens and you get to watch over these two movies. They really, they sort of bookend each other. We're going to take a break. My guests who can't see me nodding in agreement with her is Cynthia Erivo. She's currently starring in Wicked for Good and about to begin a big new journey on the stage in London. We'll take a break and come back and ask her more about that.

9:55It's The Treatment. Stay with us.

10:09Welcome back. She's still here. Thank Thank the Lord. It's the treatment. My guest is our old friend Cynthia Arrivo, who's again nominated for the Golden Globe for Best Actress in a Musical Comedy for Wicked for Good. And there's a great moment, in fact, a great sequence, the number Wonderful, where you do so much without saying a word. And it's also about which road are you going to take, which is the question for this character in subtextual terms, but it's rendered for our eyes in that scene. and you found so many ways to play that saying next to nothing. I was spellbound by it. Thank you. Thank you very much.

10:48I don't know. I think I'm always listening. I think that's the thing, the easiest way to make sure that you're playing every moment for me is if I'm just aware of what is in front of me, what's being said, and the choices that are being given out by others and being in the moment for it so that I can respond in real time, you know? I don't know if I mean to say a million things with my eyes, but I think I'm really, I'm in the moment. I'm paying attention, I'm listening, I'm hearing it. And I think with the knowledge that she does have to make a decision and there's so much coming at her, so much information and there's a lot at stake for her and all the way through that she's having, I feel like she's sort of going back and forth on what to do and what's right, what's not.

11:42This dream that I held is now in front of me again and there's a possibility that this might change things, but what if it's not true? And then that heartbreaking thing of realizing, oh, no, this is not true. It's not going to happen. I really do have to let this dream go. For me, there's really the moment of her, that's the moment of her becoming an adult. Because she could have stayed a child and stayed with her sort of sister and this man who's trying to make himself a father figure to her. But it's sort of renunciation of family, but it's also walking away from a seduction. I mean, it's a really interesting scene just because we can sort of see almost your flesh giving in to that sequence.

12:21It's extraordinary stuff. Thank you very much. I think sometimes when we look at musicals, it's easy to sort of see the surface of it, the songs and how pretty the lights look and the choreography and all of that stuff. But when you dig beneath the lyrics of things and when you dig beneath what's happening in the moment, when the decisions that have to be made by these characters, you find that there's something far more sinister, far more deep and dark that's happening to people. And I think that's why I love being able to do these musicals, because I think there's layers and layers and layers and you really have to go and see something over and over again to think, oh, my goodness, what's, oh, there's something darker happening here.

13:04There's something different going on here. And I love that you say it's like her flesh gives in. It does. It's sort of like she, for a second, allows herself to really be seduced by it. And then it's broken when, and I think a little bit ashamed that she allowed herself that moment of seduction, you know? What you're talking about is so interesting to me because as somebody who's done both stage musicals and film musicals, you know that the difference is that when you're doing something like this, people get a chance to get much closer than they can from the stage. I mean, you sort of feel the presence.

13:40You have to use the ability to attenuate, to make things smaller and less. Yes. It's about the way she moves. I'm so struck by the way you're turning your head in this because she's constantly taking things in in these stories. And here it's much slower than any other portion of the film. There's sort of like an undulation of acceptance of things. And I think she wants to take things slowly. I think if she makes the decision quickly, she loses either way. And I think if she sort of exists in this middle section where she has to sort of move between one thing and the other. Slowly, she gets to live in one place for a long time.

14:20I think it's painful for her to make the decisions, to be honest. I think she doesn't want to leave her sister behind, her friend, her sister behind. She doesn't want to leave the dreams that she's had behind. She doesn't want to let go of the thing that she's wanted. But she also knows that there's more to be done. To be provided the opportunity to play those nuances is kind of my fodder. I love being able to find the lines in between. It's the treatment, I guess, who undulates and vacillates and osculates is Cynthia Rivas. Yeah, that's right. She's starring in Wicked for Good. All of those. All of those and more in the film of Wicked for Good.

15:03What I find myself thinking so often about you is how your characters deal with having a moment of sacrifice. I mean, so often, we just talked about it here, in Wonderful. There's an incredible last sequence with Jonathan Bailey, which I'm not going to give anything away about here for those who haven't seen it, which is about something you're giving to him, of yourself to him. I want to ask you about that because again, in this film, I think in these films, more than many things I've seen you do, we really get the chance to see how she deals with not just loss, but having to surrender something, having to sacrifice.

15:39And there's Certainly in times I've seen the stage show can be about martyrdom. But you made a choice to not make it that, didn't you? Yeah. It's never occurred to me that she was a martyr. I feel like there is a sacrifice being made so she can have ownership of herself again. I think she allows herself a few things that she hasn't necessarily allowed herself before. I think she allows herself true love. and in a way kind of has to prove that it's real by saving this man and giving him the part of herself that she hasn't really given to anyone and sharing that sort of vulnerable side of her that I think even she's afraid of.

16:26Because I think we sometimes think of love as an easy thing to give and for her I think it's new. I don't think she's ever allowed herself to truly love And because she's allowed herself to truly love, she ends up having to truly lose. And when she does lose, she has to find a way to deal with that. When she thinks she's really lost, the grief that she feels, I think, is a new kind of grief that she hasn't necessarily experienced before. Because, you know, we know that she's lost her mother when she was a child. but even though it's a terrible sad thing, I don't think she knew her mother well enough to grieve her the way she grieves Fiera when she believes that he's gone.

17:07And then when she realises that he's not and to see that the spell that she has cast has inadvertently changed him completely, she has to really prove what it is to love. And in that same split moment, she has to decide oh I'm going to let everything I know go and I'm going to give everything up for love and for myself it's so delicate that moment it's I the moment when he comes to her and she's on her own and she's in the cellar and they discover each other again and she reiterates the words that he's said to her that it's not lying it's looking at something in a different way I think it's such a tender moment that she gets to share no one no one seems to have noted that moment but I think it's such a beautiful moment for the two of them to come to the realization that love doesn't exist without sacrifice and love really exists when you can accept a person as they are and in whatever new form they end up growing into see I want to talk about that sequence just because it does all things but it's really the moment of maturation where yeah where her voice sort of gets softer and and more it becomes a much more intimate scene and she's stuck in some way it's a seduction because she's giving him the gift of what he thought was his physical beauty she's she's beholding him i mean it's it's it's a it's a beautiful mirror and and 180 of their earlier seduction scene where she's giving him the thing that no one has ever given her.

18:47Yeah. And for me, that moment could have been played for Martin because you've seen the show for us. You know the last 10 minutes of the show is the moment where the audience just respond to her as this martyr. And it can be played as, especially for those who know The Wizard of Oz. In performance terms, I think that's what the real power is because it's about her becoming an adult at this moment. That's right. Yes. She has to grow. I think she actually steps into her womanhood really steps into her womanhood at that moment, that she has a gentleness, a softness, and sort of an ease almost, you know, that she, I love what you say there, that she gives him something that no one else has given him before, which is that it's not about what he looks like, that it has been previously about his looks and how handsome he is, and actually that being removed and her still loving what is in front of her is something that he's never had before.

19:50And I think that's the most mature moment for her, that actually what I love is not the thing that is on the outside, it's the thing that is behind your eyes. I have to ask you about what you're doing right now while preparing for it on stage in London. My goodness, I am preparing for Dracula. It's a one-woman show. There are 23 characters, some of which are on screen only and most of which are on stage. And it is an adventure. Let's say that. When is the show going up? The show goes up on the 17th of February. That's opening night. Yeah. Well, thank you. My guest who doesn't realize I'm too shallow to dive is Cynthia Erivo.

20:37She has a really bad joke there. She's starring in Wicked for Good and about to commence her run in a one-woman show of Dracula. Cynthia, again, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Kiss me too fiercely Hold me too tight I need help believing You're with me tonight Emmy, Tony, and Grammy winner Cynthia Erivo is again nominated for Best Actress Golden Globe for her starring role in Wicked for Good. Previous conversations with Erivo and other awards contenders, including this year's Golden Globes, are at the archive kcrw.com slash thetreatment. You can also find moments of inspirations for actors and other inspiring creators at kcrw.com slash the treat.

21:36Another Globe contender, Best Actor nominee Dwayne Johnson, star of The Smashing Machine, is jolted with sparks of inspiration in his home. The show is produced and edited by Rebecca Mooney and mixed by Katie Gilchrist. To better days, everyone, I'm Elvis Mitchell. It's The Treatment.

22:01Thank you.