Dwayne Johnson defies expectations with The Smashing Machine

0:00From KCRW Santa Monica and KCRW.com, it's The Treatment.

0:12I'm Elvis Mitchell. It's The Treatment, my guest who was a little bit too impatient to be on the radio. In the 21st century, my guest Dwayne Johnson has been in over 50 films, and he's played in movies where there have been real-life characters a number of times, in Gridiron Gang, in Pain and Gain, in, well, The Legion of Super Pets, for that answer. But there's a movie he was in where he played a real-life figure called Snitch. It was the first time I saw him do this thing where he wasn't being complicit with the audience. First of all, Dwayne, thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Good to be here.

0:43We're here to talk about your new film, The Smashing Machine. But in Snitch, that was when the first times I saw you really connect with a character and the guy who didn't know what to do with his body. That's right. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. And Snitch was one of those movies that, for me at that time, it was something that I was looking for then. which was the challenge and wanting to do more and wanting to challenge myself in ways that I hadn't been challenged before. And that story, true story, wildly true story, and had a chance to work with some great actors on that. John Bernthal, for example, one of them got to know John very well.

1:21We became brothers after that. But, you know, I always believe work begets work. And especially when you're searching for something. And from there, then I think shortly thereafter, I think I did Pain and Gain with Michael Bay. And then really fast forward to Smashing Machine, which had a whole other, I think, intention and alchemy in my life that I didn't know that it was going to have that kind of effect. And what I mean by that is, and I've been saying this as I've been talking about the film Smashing Machine, Smash Machine changed my life in ways that I didn't anticipate it. I still wanted to chase a challenge in ways that I had not been challenged before with Smash Machine.

2:06I wanted to disappear. I wanted to transform because I thought as an actor, and this was self-imposed, I thought as an actor, I don't know if I could disappear. I don't know if I could become a character actor. I don't know. I'd like to try, but I don't know. But I want to, and I was hungry to do that. And so that's what Smashing Machine represented for me. So I was thinking back to your book and the way you talk about things with your father and that sort of situation of need, not being able to communicate that, and that you're playing a father in Snitch who needs to help his son more than anything and can't talk to him.

2:46I felt that same kind of like sort of shiver in watching that early scene where Mark Kerr loses in Smashing Machine, where there's the longest walk in history. and he has to get past all these people, including the guys, the caterers, who try to get on the elevator with the rolls. And you can see, as soon as that door closes, he shrinks physically, but he waits to get off the elevator, go and sit by himself in the room, and sob. First of all, you can clearly empathize with that, because you've had that walk before, back in your wrestling days. That's right. You can't give anything away to anybody, especially when you're playing it.

3:21You were playing a character then, but the character's always speaking to the audience. Yes. And here you're playing so you can't even talk to the woman he loves. So we really feel the loneliness in this performance in ways I've never seen you do before. But talk to me about that scene, because that scene is extraordinary to watch. I think it was Floyd Patterson, the great Floyd Patterson who said this, and I'm paraphrasing here, something to the effect of when you win and you got to walk back to your locker room, it's the greatest walk in the world because you're enjoying everything the adulation, the love, the flowers and just you want to take your time but when you lose he said something to the effect of I wish there was a trap door in the middle of the ring I would never have to walk I would never have to walk from the ring to the locker room because it's the longest and loneliest walk it doesn't matter who's with you I'm still all by myself It's so funny you say Floyd Patterson, because I actually saw a connection between him and the way you play Mark.

4:23Floyd was soft-spoken. He was somebody who didn't want to be seen. He was embarrassed by the very idea of going into the ring to fight anyway. He's the most apologetic heavyweight fighter of all time. It's funny you said that, because that's the first thing I wrote down when I saw it. So you're absolutely right. In that scene, Benny, who you know. Benny Safdie. Benny Safdie, our director, writer, director. He brought that up to me. And he was the one who reminded me because I had just sent him a book on Ali because I'm such a big fan of Ali before we started shooting. And he goes, there was one fight, Patterson, Ali or Patterson or somebody.

4:57I can't remember. I think it was Patterson, Ali, right? And Patterson said this quote. And he goes, I want you to think about that now as we shoot your long walk. And he goes, and I also have an idea. He goes, I'm not going to cut away. I'm going to stay on your back. and once you find, when you find the promoter, you present to the promoter, hey, this decision was wrong. I didn't lose this fight. It was an illegal kick to the head. And the promoter says, I will let me handle it. Thank you. He goes from that moment, when you leave him, I'm not going to cut away and I'm going to stay on you on your back.

5:33And when you get in the elevator, I don't know how long it's going to take for us to get to the floor. We need to go, but I'm not cutting away. He said, I want you to just keep this in mind. Even if you're alone in that world and you're in an elevator, the last thing you want to do, you don't want to see anyone. And then he said, when and if you decide to turn around and I finally see your eyes, he said, for someone who is ashamed and embarrassed, even alone, they're looking for something to concentrate on. And he goes, your eyes are probably darting everywhere. And that's what happened when I turned around.

6:15And then he said, and if the door opens and you don't want to see someone, then turn your back on the camera and I'll still keep it rolling. And then that's what you saw. It's a treat. We're going to get a blanket from my guest, Dwayne Johnson, who gets the chills very easily, apparently. We're talking about his terrific new film as actor and producer, The Smashing Machine. You can also see the show at kcrw.com slash the treatment. Before we got started, though, I asked you what you watched. And you threw a couple of movies at me, and one that might surprise people but didn't surprise me at all.

6:43And which movie was that? It's a Wonderful Life. It's Frank Capra, James Stewart, Donna Reed. And there were a few films that I watched for inspiration. One was Raging Bull, Scorsese De Niro. Certainly it's like watching De Niro and Kathy Moriarty during some of those fight scenes. There you go. at the end of Smashing Machine, especially the end fight scene in Smashing Machine. That last fight, which is also a very long take too. Yes. And there's a point where the doors close. I don't want to give anything away, but these moments when you're by yourself, there is so much need in this character, and I've never seen you play need before.

7:20I want to ask you where that came from for this, because in addition to finding it, because that's also a character who has a need and it's a wonderful life, but you've never shown this side of yourself as a person before. In the beginning of It's a Wonderful Life to the end, nothing changes but his perspective on life. And that's in a way— Including them both characters laughing at the end of the movie. At the end, laughing and smiling. And finally, it's releasing. We all hope for that grace in life where we can just release, accept, and give in to what is meant to be. When you mention need, that's my dad.

8:08That's my dad. That's Mark, of course, because I got to know Mark very, very well on this. But that idea of need, deep need around every corner in every moment of life, I need the attention. And I need you to ask about me. I need your love. I need. That's my dad. My dad's not here anymore. He passed away suddenly in 2020. But that's all him, man. That's all him. The way I describe you so often play characters, even on Walking Tall, who bounces into a room with the answers. And is the person who knows where to go and also knows where to look in the room. And again, the reason I keep going back to Snitch, that's the first time I ever saw you not know.

8:53So I don't know if that's intentional or not, but you weren't playing to the camera. It was all intentional. Not having any answers. And by the way, how freeing that is for me just as an actor. Yeah? Yeah, because I came into this business thinking that, oh, this is the way for me. And these kinds of roles, this kind of character, this works. And by the way, it did work. And in some cases, for the right film, it still works. And it's big and fun for the audience. And it's fun for me. Hard work, but it's fun. But this idea of need is different. This idea of not having all the answers is different.

9:30And that was freeing for me because I also realized, Elvis, that there's a, ever since the wrestling days of The Rock, there's a perception that I, starts with me, helped create of, oh, he's got his s*** together. He's got the answers. That's an image. It's hard to live up to that. You played a character for a long time. I mean, The Rock is a character. I mean, The Rock is basically a brand that you play. Emily Blunt says The Rock is one of the greatest characters ever created. And by the way, really quickly, I want to take a moment to give her her flowers. Not only give her her flowers, because she's a force.

10:10And it feels like everything she does these days, Emily, is diamond. But when you talk about the scenes we had, you know, Benny cast Emily because she is a force of nature. and because he knows that when it comes, when it's time to rip open and bring it, brother, she acts 10 feet tall. And you feel that. Now, I've known her for some time because we've been great friends, Jungle Cruise, we've worked together, fun, comedy. But I got to tell you, working with Emily on this and seeing her embody Dawn Staples, who is a woman who's alive today. and just like today, even back then, she wasn't a, hey, I'm going to stand in line kind of woman.

11:01It was you live your dream, I have dreams too, and you're not going to disrespect me, and if you are, I'm going to call you out. And this trust that Emily and I had allowed for the vulnerability, allowed for ripping us open, each other open, and saying, hey, I got you. There may not be any net around here, but we're going to go to these places that are raw, that are like touching raw nerves in these fight scenes, like that final fight scene we talked about, where it's her and I in the house for eight minutes. That's an eight-minute song over Bruce Springsteen's Jungle Land. First time, by the way, he approved that song to be used.

11:40And Benny wrote him a handwritten letter. Well, clearly there's nothing to talk about with my guest, Dwayne Johnson. We're going to take a little bit of a break so we can hydrate. Here's the treatment. Here's some more to come. Stay with us.

12:03My guest who's still here, shockingly, and didn't leave this watch behind, is Dwayne Johnson. He's starring in and produces the new film, The Smashing Machine. It's the treatment which comes from your case here at W.com. You're still fighting the perception of people thinking you haven't changed since 1998. Yes. Which isn't true. Right. For a long, long time, I was put in a corner that I put myself in. I believe. And not saying it's a bad thing. It's just the thing. And I felt like it was, and it was working. And the big movies are great and they're fun. And they're hard work, but they're fun.

12:41But I did want something more. And I was looking for something more. yes I did pain and gain and snitch and be cool and where I could play characters but I did feel like well man I want to disappear and I want to and I and I I want to do that and I came to this point and I'll be honest with you it was around 2017 or 18 that I started looking around and going what's next now what is it because it wasn't coming to you realize you'd have to know part How your life has been about making your own opportunities? Has it been? Absolutely. It was, what do I really want to continue to do? The big movies are great.

13:20They're fun. When they hit, they're great. When they flop, they're not great, but we move on. But it just wasn't fulfilling, and I wanted something fulfilling. And then what I also realized is I used to say for years, I had a motto, audience first. always audience first meaning I want to send them home floating floating is what I used to say so what mattered to me always was on Rotten Tomatoes the critics they're either going to like it or not like it it's what they do but the audience score Elvis that was important and as long as that was in the high 80s 90s now I'm sending them home floating audience first that's all that matters Well, then I reached a point probably, again, around 2018, 19, when I first met Benny.

14:14And I thought, well, wait a second. If I really care about audience first, another version of audience first is why wouldn't I give them all of me? And all of me was not these other roles where I have all the answers, always looking cool, walk into a room, as you said. I know where to look. I know what to say. Let's kick ass. Let's move on to the next scene. the next thing. I just, there was more. In the movies where you're doing different kinds of things, it's even a little, they're a little bit in Jumanji, you're playing sort of a teenager. I mean, in some ways, it's kind of the precursor of what you're doing here.

14:50Except he wants people to think he knows what's going on. I mean, I guess, I can't stress enough to you here, Dwayne, how much this is about somebody just desperate to connect to something. And in some ways, that's your struggle, clearly. So this must have been And this kind of perfect sort of meeting of performer and intent. I guess you saw the documentary and thought there's something. I love the documentary. Oh, yeah, sure. I love the documentary. I was moved by it. But a lot of things we're talking about are not in the documentary. No. That just comes from a real place. That comes from a real place of intent.

15:25And it comes from a real place of discovery. And it comes from a real place. When you talk about that, about slowing things down and letting the audience wait and it being okay, that comes in time. And, you know, if you think about it, I came into this business. Mummy Returns, you and I talked about that. Then right in Scorpion King. That's my foray into... We walked into the movie like you were Elvis Presley in Blue Hawaii. I mean, you had like a pop star swagger in those early movies. And, but again, it fascinates me just watching incrementally somebody coming to understand. And this is, and this is what I thought, well, this is, there's something going on here.

16:04There's ambition. in him, which begs the question, now what do you do? Everything. Everything. But very specifically, this is why I say in the beginning, what you and I talked about, Smashing Machine changed my life. Okay. Helped me discover things about myself that I didn't know were discoverable. and then a few things I thought, I don't know if I want to discover that, but did anyway. But what it also means, Elvis, is what I've realized is now moving forward, everything and anything I do, smaller arthouse film like a smashing machine with this auteur director, Benny Safdie, who I love, or a bigger one like Jumanji.

17:00just doing it for me. Because, and what I mean by that is, for years, I would do things, these other films for me. But I also would know that a lot of other people and institutions have benefited from it that I would always keep in mind. By the way, including the audience. How is this going to serve the audience? And I would think that way. And that was okay, and it worked for me. Until it doesn't. And it just wasn't as fulfilling for just, and I know it sounds weird, just for my soul. Like I've reached that point in my life. Why do you think they sound weird? I don't, you know. You think you don't deserve to have yourself with them?

17:39No, you know, I feel like maybe sometimes when you talk that way, it's, maybe it sounds weird to people. I don't know. But it wasn't fulfilling to my soul. Until now. Until now, the thing I want to do, well, I'm going to do it for me. Your ambitions clearly speak. I'm talking about what do you do now to find in the situation with this that much trust? With this that much trust in your director and the material and the people you're working with. I can't think of another situation you would have had. Not just the scenes you have with Emily. Because we have to believe that there's enough going there that they keep coming back to each other.

18:15They're not just punishing themselves. It's not just a codependent relationship. We have to believe that there's enough going on there that we want to see them work this thing out. We're not just watching people punish themselves. And that's what happens in those scenes, isn't it? That we have to believe they care about each other enough that they're trying. That's where the heartbreak comes, is they're so desperate to be heard. That's right. They're so desperate to be heard, so desperate to come together, so desperate to work it out. And the heartbreak thing is they just never do. That's why I ask you another situation where there's this much trust for you.

18:50My honest answer is I feel like it maybe acts as a forcing mechanism to take my time when it comes to these roles and to make sure that whoever that director is, that I have that trust and I have that desire to, hey, let's rip it open together. and whoever the co-star is. I think I'm getting to this, right, with your question. Whoever that co-star is, whoever that may be, as opposed to, okay, we got a big one here. Who's the popular actor? Okay, great. Where am I looking? Where's it going to blow up? Yeah, absolutely. Who's the director? All right, let's do it. Where's the tennis ball? Where's the tennis ball?

19:39Yeah, where's the blue screen? Okay, great. What's the budget? Okay, great. When's our release? No. So now again, there are, of course, look, I'm starting Jumanji next week. We just wrapped Moana, two that are very special to me. But what's next is, I think, just being even more attuned to performance and to can I disappear? And what can I do? And how can I challenge myself? and this is a whole other conversation you and I could and we should have one day about how when you're chasing the dollar because there was a time in your life you didn't have it and you kind of forget that hey you ain't going broke you're okay you're gonna you're not gonna get evicted again like you were when you're 15 but sometimes it's hard because you keep that stuff in the forefront of your mind so anyway I hope I answered your question you did my guest is Dwayne Johnson.

20:41His newest film is the terrific The Smashing Machine, written and directed by Benny Safter. You are welcome back here anytime. Thank you, brother, for this conversation. I love this conversation and love talking to you. The rangers had a homecoming in Harlem late last night. Dwayne Johnson has been recognized around the world for his starring roles in more franchises than it seems possible, such as the Jumanji and the Fast and Furious movies. His newest project as star and producer is The Smashing Machine, which allows him to pursue a different ambition. Actor. Past encounters with all kinds of creative powerhouses at the archive.

21:24KCRW.com slash the treatment. You know what else is there? The Treat. With new installments dropping weekly. Joshua Raffae, director of HBO's docuseries The Morticians, has thoughts on a William Friedkin film that secured classic status after its re-release. The show's produced and edited by Rebecca Mooney and mixed by Katie Gilchrist. And we had help this week from Sue Margulies. To better days, everyone, I'm Elvis Mitchell. It's The Treatment. Down in jungle. Thank you.