Oscar winner Paul Tazewell on telling story through costume

0:00From KCRW Santa Monica and KCRW.com, it's The Treatment.

0:14it's the treatment i'm elvis mitchell you can also hear the show at kcow.com and if you're a person of a certain age you still remember the entrance of bring on the noise bring on the funk i got a smile from my guest the emmy tony and oscar award-winning costume designer paul taswell was that your first show your first first broadway show okay i I wondered about that. We know him now, of course, for many things, including The Wiz Live, for which he won the Emmy, and Wicked, for which he won the, what do they call it? Oh, the Academy Award for Best Costume Design. I can't thank you enough for being here.

0:47There is something about your costume that sort of invites people to move. And I think about the way Elpho's costumes are designed for both drama and for movement. And they expand as her world expands on her in very interesting, subtle ways. They move her out of being in the shadows and into the center of the room just by virtue of size, don't they? Absolutely. I mean, movement goes all the way back to when, well, I was in high school, early high school years, and I wanted to be a performer. So I was studying dance and acting with the performing arts program that I was in and singing, you know, all of that.

1:31and I was going to take Broadway by storm. Well, you did. Well, in a much different way than I originally imagined. I carry that interest, that engagement, you know, into all the work that I do. Well, it's also interesting because it's something that comes, I think, in this way, certainly, I think, in Bring on Noise, Bring on the Funk, but also in the Wicked films, people want to be seen in uniform. You know, I need to conform, but I also want to be seen in these things. And sort of understanding people's psychology and that you have to be part of a group. And so much of the things you've done is about group movement, actually.

2:11And kind of these sort of ways of color, but people standing out in those ways. You know, clothing for me is about identity. That's how I tell stories. It's through the language of clothing. That then becomes fabric and texture and color. and if you do a deep dive. But it is what a character chooses to wear for a specific moment in time and how it reflects what's happening to them emotionally as well, functionally. Because as we were talking about that, I was thinking just about how there's a beautiful sort of tan suit in West Side Story that I want so bad my teeth hurt. But it's because it's so used to seeing that suit on somebody and people not moving in that suit.

2:57That's the suit that somebody wears in a movie, to just sort of stand and not be seen. And I just thought you're bringing that to the center of the frame and making that suit that a dance. Because you think about how rarely we see people dance basically in sort of khaki-colored suits. I thought that was kind of a revelatory moment for me. Well, I mean, what you're speaking of is Bernardo's suit in the dance at the gym. I wanted to set him up as a man of great style first and of aspiration. You know, because he is an immigrant. from Puerto Rico that is striving to do better. You know, he happens to be the head of a gang, but he's also family-minded.

3:37I mean, you know, he's got his sister Maria there, and he has Anita, who he's getting ready to marry. There's a backstory that is meaningful. I mean, I'm always thinking about when I'm designing for characters, you know, just what is their full world? You know, what defines who they are? and how do they want to represent themselves? And then how does that play off of the other characters that are in a scene or throughout the story? It's the treatment. It took the 21st century for an African-American man to be the first to the Oscar for Best Costume Design. He's sitting across from me, Paul Tanswell.

4:16He's also one of Nemi and Tony, so we've got lots of things to talk about. Part of the elegance in your work, it feels like these are really functional costumes that people live in. And I wonder if you saw movies as a kid that made you feel that, because we're roughly the same age. A lot of the movies we were seeing with the costumes were strictly sort of presentational rather than real. And I wonder where making it real comes to you, because that's a big part of what you do. You know, I think that that maybe sets me apart from other designers. And this is speaking of musicals. I mean, I, you know, I, I came up one wanting to perform in musicals.

4:50And then once I decided to be a designer, you know, I, I, that was my draws, you know, to design musical theater. I also designed straight plays and, you know, and, and, and that. You did raise them in the song. And I did raise them. Which is very much about people in aspirational costumes. Exactly. Trying to think about the future, trying to get ahead of themselves. Correct. And I think that that is part of it. It's growing up as a Black man or as a Black boy and a Black man and my own experience and desiring authenticity around how we present ourselves in vast ways. You know, just the multi-layer quality or, you know, aspect of our culture and how it's been rendered in media and in film and in theater versus what it actually is.

5:46And I think that that's become more and more important for me, to be able to embrace joy and embrace celebration, which I see as part of the musical theater experience, but also to carry a quality that is true and honest. And, you know, some of that is influenced by, you know, just growing up with portraits dating from, you know, the turn of the century of my great grandparents and my grandparents in the 20s. And, you know, to see those actual photographs of Black Americans, aspirational indeed, making their way in the U.S. And to celebrate that in my work is a priority. Also, we're both Midwesterners, and there's a certain way you dressed during the week as compared to the weekend, as compared to Sunday.

6:45That story is kind of writ small and large and raised in the sun. We can see from what Walter and his wife wear, especially by the end of the show, that tells us they're looking forward to moving forward. To me, that's an emotional thing to see just because you've done a number of things that, as African Americans, we feel a sense of kinship to. That we feel the phrase in the song belongs to us and the whiz belongs to us. And that you understand the burden that comes with that, but you also don't want to be hammed in by it, do you? Absolutely not. There are a couple of things that are in there that, you know, what you presented, it's a priority for me to express the dignity of being black community or community of people of color as well, because, you know, just how we value ourselves.

7:36It's messaged in multiple ways within our American culture, you know, making sure that your shoes are shined, making sure that you've got a crease in your pants. And you're sure that the right size tie of the right size shirt color. Exactly, exactly. And those are things that, you know, within our culture, we know that those are things that we could control. If we weren't there economically, we could control where we're living in certain neighborhoods or we're buying certain cars. I mean, yes, indeed, that happened. But for those who didn't have, they at least had control of how they were going to present themselves to the world.

8:13Sometimes the only control. Exactly. When did that first happen for you, seeing a movie that costume drew you? And are you aware of what had happened, the moment or the movie perhaps? You know, I grew up with Sounder. I grew up with, you know, Roots. I grew up with Cinderella on Disney. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Mary Poppins, The Sound of Music, you know, I possibly The Color Purple was one where I had an adult mind and I was seeing storytelling and clothing because I'd already engaged with design. and just the power of costume, you know, and how that telegraphs, you know, qualities of personality in big ways.

9:03Well, my guest has just opened an entire can of worms to talk about. We have to take a little bit of a break. I'll let him have some water. It's the treatment, my guest is, multi-award winning costume designer, Paul Tazewell. It's the treatment. There's more to come. Stay with us.

9:28I'm way too excited. I'm hoping something rubs off my guest, Paul Tanswell, fellow midwesterner. Unlike me, he's won a bunch of awards. It's the treatment, by the way. When you said, because I wanted to ask you about this, because when I saw Cynthia Erivo in Wicked, I found myself thinking of Cicely Tyson in Sounder. They're the same coloring. They both had to wear, they wore things that were about sort of surviving trauma. making do with what you have around you, about making the best you can out of what is there for you. I mean, I thought when you said that, I thought, I mean, so many bells went off in my head.

10:03And I just wondered when I saw her that first time, like having clean clothes meant for Elphaba, I really thought about how Cicely's character had to make do and sound it. Did that make sense? Yep, absolutely. I mean, you know, the first time that I dressed Cynthia, that I designed costumes for her, it was for Harriet, when she played Harriet Tubman. I fell in love with her. We created a huge bond when we were shooting. So much respect for her talent, you know, in all ways, and her spirit. You know, I also learned, you know, that she loves fashion. So, you know, when I was starting to work on Wicked and John M.

10:52Chu, you know, we were having conversations. He approached me. We were talking about, you know, what is this world? What does it look like? What is it going to feel like? He was presenting to me the different actors that he was considering for the role. You know, when I was doing my own work, listening to the music, reading the text, looking at images, I was starting to identify with Elphaba. The reason was, here is a young woman of color. She's green. She's a person that is being marginalized, vilified for the color of her skin. And I directly identified with that story. So I just thought, found it so powerful when John said to me, oh, we're considering Cynthia Erivo to play this role.

11:40One, because I knew that she's a powerhouse and smart and has the personality to push forward her own point of view, which is necessary as she's playing Elphaba. And then to be able to come together and join forces in creating who the Elphaba of 2025, 2026 would be, you know, that was such a powerful place to sit and live in. And I missed that space because we were working on it for a year and a half. But it was just a very creative, full, rich process. I just thought that sense of ownership of putting Elphaba in black, that's to me, sort of said so much. To put her in black as a young girl, that was specific to her mother passing away when she was younger.

12:39But for you to embrace that, though, I mean, you didn't try to find a way around it to sort of like make it like a shimmering black. He was dressed like a nun. Right. I mean, because what I was going to point out is that, you know, I then turned around and as a woman might or as a person might, she then holds on to that as her power source. I mean, her clothing is acting as armor against the world that she's faced with, as identity, meaning she looks severe. So then that can telegraph a certain kind of, that can push people away and telegraph to people that she's somewhat untouchable, at least internally.

13:19And also the beauty, the elegance that comes from using that color as well. You know, so you see, you know, a variation of uses of black, you know, in the way that I've used it as it's rendered in different kinds of textures of fabrics and other treatments that we use to telegraph certain things. Little Elphaba, all the vines of leaves that are part of her dress align her with the organicness of nature. And then it moves into this woman who has arrived in a beautiful silhouette, an amazing coat, it's one of my favorite pieces, and still feels like an outsider. into then her uniform, which moves slightly away from Black, but it's still on the darker side with her shiz uniform, and then into a pants look, a pants and kilt look.

14:16And as she's softening on top, you know, kind of showing a sense of youth. I mean, she's embracing her beauty. You know, she's also becoming more agile. That story continues on. It's also reflective of The Wicked Witch of the West from the original Wizard Vos. It's operating in a number of different ways. It's The Treatment. We're talking about texture with my guest, Paul Tazwell. He will be returning for the second in the Wicked films. It's The Treatment, which you also hear at kcrw.com. As you were talking, you say armor, but I also feel like it's, for all the severity of it, there is a vibrancy to it.

15:00I mean, it's demand of, I may not be able to see it in my speaking to you, but my wardrobe will see it. Because I think of Glinda's, especially with all the sort of work and tool in her show, I think that literally is being armored for her. And for both of the characters, which, you know, what is so exciting about designing Wicked, you know, the Wicked and Wicked for Good, you know, it's setting up the, what are the contrasts between these two women and the choices that they've made? And then, you know, how they live with those consequences of those choices. My job being, you know, how can I dress them so that I'm supporting their, you know, emotional arc, their emotional shift as they're moving through that mind space.

15:46You know, I have to say, you know, it is simpler for an audience to accept elegance and romantic beauty in the lighter tone, in that pink and, you know, kind of soft and floating and sparkly. You know, that is very enticing. It's interesting because the colors that almost an adolescent might wear, but given this kind of, all this layering of surface complexity, whereas the evolution of Elphaba's costumes as we go on, there are more and more layers added to her as she becomes more and more adult. But there's still a simplicity to all those layers. I mean, and we can sort of see from the way the costumes fit her that there's more under.

16:32In the same way, there's more under her skin. and there's more under the costume that she gets older, isn't there? Absolutely. And I mean, with Elphaba, what you realize with For Good is that she moves into the archetype of the Wicked Witch of the West, you know, the modern Wicked Witch of the West, as I see it, you know, as a hero, you know, and savior of the animals. But then she has to come to terms with herself and what her choice is in, you know, moving to the next chapter of her life. And we see how her costume starts to deteriorate. I mean, it's deteriorating, you know, quite literally because she's flying through the air all the time on this broom, beating up, you know, the guards and in helping the animals.

17:21But through all that activity, that distress is causing her clothes to deteriorate because she, you know, she doesn't necessarily go back to Munchkinland to get her, you know, her, all of her, you know, wardrobe. She, you know, she flees into the forest with what she has and she makes do with what she has. So she, you know, I'm trying to telegraph the idea that she is, she is recreating who she will be as the Wicked Witch partly to do what she needs to do as this hero, and also refining her identity. I think about the politics of style, the politics of style for Black people, which is to say what you were getting at before, what you own is what's on your body.

18:12And we can follow that line from Sounder to Spielberg's The Color Purple, to what you did on stage in Bring on the Noishment, which is really very much about all those guys what the little they're wearing. And we could see how dancing in those outfits, the wear on those clothes, you were determined to not say, this isn't Five Guys Named Moe. This is one of those shows, this is one of those dance tuxedo shows. This is about what living in real clothes does to you. I mean, there's an elegance in that too, because the idea of how beautiful Cicely Tyson looked, those could have been like the one we've vogue shoots.

18:49Right, right. Yes. I mean, you know, at first you were thinking, you were speaking of bringing the noise, bringing the funk. I mean, that was a, you know, that was a formative time for me. You know, that was my first Broadway show, but it was also a project where I started to understand. And I understood it innately, but I could actually put words to, I could verbalize what I was in control of with that design, which was designing poetically, designing the essence of a slave through the middle passage. and what that feels like on a dancer moving through space and how can I reflect, how can I be additive in the visual experience for an audience in that moment?

19:40You know, with Savion Glover or with Bakari, who there was a slave that was a tap dancer, you know, and he gets hung at the end of that number. And it's kind of minstrel, it's kind of slave for a musical that was mostly music and written word. Jeffrey Wright was the poet in that. You know, it's like, how does costume fit into this storytelling? You know, was the investigation for me? Was the journey? Only through working with George C. Wolfe, you know, could I arrive at what I did for those moments. because of his amazing intelligence as a writer and as a director and really understanding how to telegraph image in that way.

20:35You're welcome back here anytime you'd like to come. Oh, thank you. My guest is multiple award winner. I'm sorry, I can't let you get away from that. Costume designer and artist, Paul Taswell. His newest film is Wicked for Good. I can't thank you enough for doing this. Thank you. This was wonderful. Thank you. I love that conversation. And now whatever way our story is in, I know you have rewritten mine by being my friend. Emmy and Tony Award winning costume designer Paul Tazwell is the first African-American man to win the Oscar in that category, which he did in 2025 for the costume design for Wicked.

21:16He returns to Oz with Wicked for Good, Now, in theaters, conversations with other esteemed costume designers, such as Ariane Phillips and Ellen Mirajnik, are at the archive kcrw.com slash thetreatment. This show is produced and edited by Rebecca Mooney and mixed by Katie Gilgrest. To better days, everyone, I'm Elvis Mitchell. It's The Treatment. To clear the air, I ask forgiveness for the things I've done you blame me for. But then I guess we know there's blame to share And none of it seems to matter anymore