Richard Gadd on the duality in his work

0:00KCRW sponsors include Paramount Plus, presenting Landman Season 2 from Taylor Sheridan, starring Billy Bob Thornton, Demi Moore, and Sam Elliott. Emmy eligible in all drama series categories and available for voters at ParamountFYC.com. From KCRW Santa Monica and KCRW.com, it's The Treatment.

0:28Welcome to The Treatment. I'm Elvis Mitchell. My guest writer, actor, and comedian, Richard Gann, I think has an affinity for writing characters who can't help themselves and say the wrong things at the right time. In fact, there's a line at the beginning of his show, Baby Reindeer, where the lead character says, maybe some part of me wanted to get caught, which I think applies to almost everything he does. His most recent piece for HBO is the series Half-Man. First of all, thanks so much for being here, Richard. Thank you for doing this. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. But there is an aspect of your characters who they can't help but confess themselves almost all the time.

1:07Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think at the same time, at the same time, they are still at the same time repressed individuals. I think what I find quite interesting as to explore in human behavior. Sometimes people do confess a lot of things or speak a lot to their problems or issues, but actually avoid the main issue in their life or tackling the thing that fears them the most. Sometimes people confess like smaller things and hope it will lead to a wider release, but at the same time, avoid the bigger thing they need to get off the chest, which will lead to that freedom. So I find all those inconsistencies kind of interesting in human behavior.

1:44But I think also too, there's this sort of fascinating schism because you tend to write these characters in pairs, and as they're seeing the other person, there's almost like they're seeing the nightmare version of themselves, but also the other character has a kind of freedom that they don't have. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that I'm interested in just exploring kind of naughty relationships, really. I suppose it just so happened that the past two relationships I've explored in television have involved, yeah, like a pairing, like a duo. But yeah, there was just something that drew me to writing about these two separate relationships.

2:24First, the kind of needy relationship, our comedian sort of psychosexual relationship with the stalker, and then with the brothers, this kind of like feeling of lacking, and then this feeling that the other brother completes them. It just felt interesting territory for me to explore. We should say in Happen, yes, it's about two brothers. We catch them as teenagers and follow them all the course they use as they grow up, and secrets come and go in their lives, and they sort of become, it becomes kind of a found family. And I think also that's, to some extent, what Baby Reindeer is too. Your character there is kind of looking for a kind of completion that he finds with these other people.

3:03And I wonder where that comes from for you, because it's in some ways about people having to find families outside of their own homes. I think we all do, so I don't want to act like this is a singular experience, but find life quite confusing and quite difficult. and I feel like we live in a kind of prescriptive culture where everything has to fit into boxes neatly but sometimes life doesn't work that way and I think my characters always search for things because I myself have always tried to search for answers only to realize that there are no answers really to why we're here and why we go through the things we go through.

3:39Life is kind of impossible to grapple down to size and therefore it's why all my shows inherently, I think, have a searching without answers, because I think that life itself is kind of searching without answers. You play with tension in both sort of comic and melodramatic terms. You start both pieces, both half-man and baby reindeer, in the middle of a situation that leads us to prejudge what it is we're seeing. And then you like the idea, I think, of pulling, like, the carpet from beneath us to sort of show that these seemingly simple situations are much more complex than anybody could ever have imagined.

4:14Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm always trying, I suppose, just even from a writing point of view, to try to usurp convention as best I can. I think storytelling, the best kind of storytelling, surprises you in a lot of ways. So even if we talk about, like, Ruben's entrance in episode one, he's built up as this kind of psychopath who's bitten a bus driver's nose off and disfigured him. But then when he arrives, he's surprisingly accepting around certain things, and he dances and he's not the bully that I think we expect him to be. And I think I'm interested in just from a storytelling point of view, keeping on surprising people, building tension, and just trying to offer a slice of life, which is different to what people expect when they tune into normal television shows.

4:56Also, these pairings that we've seen between Baby Reindeer and in Half-Man Between the Brothers, it's basically almost super ego and id. There's something these characters who are so repressed admire in these people who can just say what needs to be said at any given moment, which is also where, again, the tension comes in. It's clear that you like to sort of play with the way we react to tension. I really am interested, I suppose, especially if Baby Ranger is kind of trying to take two characters as polar opposites and needing so badly what the other person lacks. There's a line in episode two, which is Celeste says, one of the characters, she goes, one needs a head and the other needs a body.

5:38And I think in a lot of ways, that is why they're so drawn to one another. I just find it quite interesting. I find odd pairings quite interesting. And I find the reasons we're drawn to people not necessarily healthy ones sometimes, but they are the most powerful. And I'm interested in exploring all the kind of naughtiness of sort of codependent relationships in a way. But I think you also have an interest in exploring the claustrophobia of codependent relationships. At some point, at any given episode of these shows, we feel almost like we can't breathe. And there's a part of you that seems to like the idea of sort of people getting so close, they kind of take the oxygen out of the room.

6:19Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I like my work to sit sometimes on, well, just make sure that it's kind of traversing human emotions. You know, I never want to, you know, I find life, like I live life on the hard end to a certain degree. I find life quite challenging and quite, it can be tough. It can be tough for us all. And I think that artwork, television, whatever, should reflect that. And so I'm not shy of extreme emotions and extreme behaviors in my show, because I think actually a lot of that is very true to life. I think television should be challenging, and I think it should show things that are as complicated and as naughty and as difficult as life itself.

7:01And I suppose that's the mantra I take through all my work. It's the treatment. My guest, who I'm sure thinks TV should be as challenging as life, is Richard Gad. His new series for HBO is Half-Man. I think what's interesting too, though, is you like to deal with the idea of the way somebody who's bigger than life walks into a room and takes up space in a room. But the idea of both physical and psychological space, which can lead to claustrophobia, has been pretty central to both these works, hasn't it? Yeah, I like plunging the audience in the deep end. And I think with Ruben... You say Ruben is a character you play in Half-Man, one of the two brothers.

7:39Yes, exactly. So I play the kind of hyper-masculine, aggressive, grown, borderline sort of psychotic brother who arrives in and kind of turns the central character, Niles, world upside down, who is the kind of nervous, kind of repressed, sort of self-effacing one. And I think, you know, in life, we always think about these really charismatic people we meet, and there's something so intoxicating about them. And whereas Ruben's not based on anyone in my life, I think we've all come across somebody who we're kind of scared of, but admire the fact that they don't care about anything other than themselves.

8:22They have charisma that seems to attract all people around them. and I think growing up and even in life itself we wonder what it must be like to be like that and I think at the heart of Ruben there is a sense of fear around his character but there is also a sense of admiration too and the amount of messages I've got from people saying stuff along the lines of oh Ruben reminds me of someone in my family or Ruben reminds me of someone from school and it's weird I was so terrified of them but part of me wanted to be them too I mean I get so many messages like that because i think people know what it's like or a lot of people know what it's like to live in the shadow of someone who they deem more powerful than them and that's really at the heart of of the character of ruben and and the journey that i tried to paint with the two but i want to get back to because again these all these competing forces and they're people won't like to describe your work as being like dramatic or or satirical but it's never one thing at one time and I think the idea of this simultaneity of things happening and the constancy of dialogue, I think the one thing that defines both the works is people are talking all the time almost over each other and this also makes it feel almost like it's we're hyperventilating with them because there's such a stream of dialogue that's both aware and unaware.

9:43Yeah, I mean I think it all kind of comes back to just trying to keep the audience kind of on their toes and second guessing. I mean, I think Ruben, whenever he's around, I always wanted the audience to feel that kind of unsettling presence that you would have if somebody like that was in your life. So I always tried every time he was around, you don't quite know what he's doing, what he's about to do, what he's thinking, and therefore it creates a bit of attention for the audience to remain engaged. But with that, I knew it couldn't always be a sort of sense of threatening tension. It could always just be he's turning up and something's about to go off or he's about to explode.

10:24I knew I needed to turn it on its head. And sometimes that was him displaying dance skills, our surprising knowledge or surprising grasp of language, all the way through to him actually revealing vulnerabilities about himself as a person. And so it all came back to just trying to create this kind of, I don't know, oven for these kinds of characters to sit in and to feel the pressure of their relationship together. We'll take a break and talk more about baking with my guest Richard Gadd. His new work for HBO is Half Man. It's the treatment. There's more to come. Stay with us.

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11:31Welcome back. It's The Treatment. My guest is the talented and not nearly prolific enough writer, actor, and comedian Richard Gaddis. New work for HBO is Half Man. You said pressure before the break. There's a kind of a pressure that these characters are not conscious of the way they're applying. You were talking about Ruben before the break, and one of the things I think is kind of fascinating about sometimes these characters, They seem to be almost conjured out of nowhere. Reuben often appears as if he's just, like his name has been spoken and he shows up. And the same is true for Martha in Baby Reindeer.

12:08And I wanted to ask you about that because it's almost like these characters are divined in some way. Again, that's why I was talking about subconscious, super ego and id, because Niall almost seems that if he thinks of Reuben too much, he will show up out of nowhere. That is kind of speaks to kind of, I suppose, Rubens, sorry, Niall's kind of obsession of the mind around Ruben. But also Rubens, yeah, he does carry a sort of almost like omnipotent, transcendental presence, I suppose. I always wanted him to remain human, which I think I did, but he does have a quality, like an unsettling quality similar to what Martha had, even though I always wanted her to remain human, of kind of turning up in a way where it feels slightly mystical or slightly kind of horrifying and tense and and that's playing the genre to a certain degree and that is just making sure that you know that the characters remain interesting and arresting and you know it's one of those things where like i knew when i was writing baby reindeer like donny kind of was obviously the the main character but the kind of success of the show hinged on martha's ability to be a whole load of things at once and i think it was the same with with half men were exploring toxic masculinity, codependent need, the difficulty of men loving themselves and loving one another.

13:28And I knew in a lot of ways that similar to Donnie, Nile had to carry the show, but Ruben would kind of, the success of it kind of relied on Ruben's ability to be a whole load of things at once and to carry the kind of tension and the stress in a lot of the kind of presence within the piece. It's the treatment. We're talking about the complexities leads of tension with my guest, writer and actor Richard Gant, whose news project for HBO is half man. But as you were saying that, I was thinking about that line that Niall has during one of their confrontations where he says, I get high off you. I'm almost chemically dependent.

14:02And that is so much about the relationship, but it also sort of speaks to this thing that you have a tendency, an affinity for, I think I mean to say, which is sort of depicting appetites for people. and there's this hunger and ambition that all these characters have and these ambitions all sort of collide in different ways but they're about appetites too, aren't they, these ambitions? I think, yeah, because Donnie expresses in Baby Ranger that he wants to be famous because it would change his sort of almost like quite toxic self projections into the world, his insecurities and Niall wants fame for so many reasons, not least to sort of fly his lot, escape his childhood, and to live up to the expectation of being that special kid in a school that was quite rough.

14:51And I think he wants to live a life outside of Reuben. He wants success so he can feel the power that Reuben feels just when he just walks down the street. And so Niall does crave power because he lacks it so much in himself. And I think that's very human. I think really ambition can be seen as a dirty work. but I think a lot of people are ambitious and I think that's okay not only because I can I think ambition is also a great way of giving yourself meaning and purpose in life but I also know that kind of ambition can or leap itself I think that's a quote from the book that actually and fall down and when you you set yourself these lofty expectations and you don't achieve them it can have a huge corruptibility it could be so corrupting on the spirit and I find that really interesting i think i think unfulfilled potential and i think dreams not quite turning out the way that you want can really really shape somebody's psychology and confidence and that's something i'm very interested in exploring it i myself have strived so hard in life to the point where i sometimes existentially question what's it all for why am i doing it you know well no i'm so fulfilled by it but there are times where you you know you spend your whole day behind a laptop trying to break story or you're in an edit day and night and you're not sleeping and you think you know you just have these moments of wobbles what is it all for and i wouldn't swap it for anything i i'm so fulfilled by creativity and making work but i still think it's very natural when you work constantly and and so hard and always trying to better yourself and fulfill creative projects and ambitions that you go oh i'm giving everything to this that i'm almost not living.

16:38I'm almost not sacrificing. I'm sacrificing almost life outside of it. And that can cause you to question it. But I feel very fulfilled by it. But then again, I'm getting to do the things that I want to do. Let's say I had all these feelings inside of me and I wanted to do all these things, but I wasn't getting to where I needed to be or I was self-imploding or whatever. I think it would be hugely damaging to my spirit, into my confidence as somebody who takes a lot of meaning from life out of work and creativity. And that is just something I'm really interested in exploring. It's interesting because Niall is literally trying to be the author of his own escape.

17:17And Donnie wants to, both of these protagonists, these characters, both Donnie and Niall sort of feel that escape will take them to someplace better and different. And these pieces you've written are kind of the almost, I shouldn't say almost, they're of these existential crises that you really finally can't escape from who you are and sort of the thing that maybe Martha and Ruben have in common is on some level a kind of self-recognition that these others don't. Yes, absolutely. What I think I feel most of all with the kind of characters is like I've sort of wandered through life not really knowing who I am, I suppose, is the wider point.

18:00and I've always wondered through life, being confused about myself, about various parts of myself, or even just like feeling and look a bit adrift and a bit cut off. And I think that is also very human. And I think what, if I think back to Baby Reindeer and a line that I think people resonated with the most, it's like there was, when Donnie's doing his monologue in the comedy club and he breaks down crying and he says, there's one thing I loved more than her and that was hating myself. and I think I get messages all the time about that line and I think that people think I think a lot of people wonder through life I'm not saying they hate themselves but they go through a battle of self-love self-preservation self-care even speaking nicely to themselves not being too hard on themselves when they make mistakes like they go through this battle because I think somewhere along the line they've told themselves and somebody's told them they're not good enough and as a result they go through this battle where they punish themselves like I often think that the the hardest journey and hardest battle we have in life is actually with ourselves and coming to terms with ourselves and trying to deal with thoughts and challenges and day-to-day setbacks and all these kinds of things and I and that's what I always try to put in my shows a kind of sense of reality and kind of human struggle and because it feels it feels very real to me I think the other thing that ends up feeling incredibly real in these pieces that these characters, Donnie and Niall, are really defined by their proximity to these other people who are bigger than them, that they have to sort of step away from these shadows to see who and what they are.

19:36And I think that's really interesting that we have to sort of understand who we are by standing next to someone who is not us. I think that's been this thing that's run through these pieces that you've done that is just so compelling. One thing that I've always tried to do in my work is is try to explore relationships that are very hard to leave because i think actually like sometimes if i take a step back and i think about you know friends or people in relationships the breakups that are often the hardest are the ones where they should break up like objectively their relationships are working it's but but they find that harder than you know than those ones where hey you're in a relationship of complete mutual respect and adoration but it's just the loves Gansh, those ones, despite the fact they're healthier, are easier to step away from.

20:25And I think that what I've tried to explore in my work is that kind of toxic bind that I think people, once people become kind of codependent, once characters become codependent on one another, they bind together in a way where it's very hard to leave. And it's actually very hard sometimes to take validation elsewhere once you've felt that kind of codependent euphoria. And that's something that I'm just really interested in exploring in my work. I actually think that the more complicated the relationships are, the more defining they are, and therefore the harder they are to leave. I guess this is Richard Gad, his newest piece for HBO is Half Man.

21:01Please come back and talk to us again. It was great talking to you. Thank you so much. I would love to. Thanks so much. Thank you for your kind words. All the lovers that have gone before Actor and writer Richard Gad won Emmys for writing and acting in Baby Reindeer, the 2024 Netflix series he created. He's currently the writer and star and creator of the HBO drama miniseries Half Man. Creators who write and star in their own material, find conversations with them at the archive, kcrw.com slash the treatment. And at kcrw.com slash thetreat, you can hear new weekly installments from our series of creators on inspiration.

21:51This week, from writer and director David Siegel, how he's moved by a literal and figurative school of architecture. Our show is produced and edited by Rebecca Mooney and mixed by Katie Gilchrist. To better days, everyone, I'm Elvis Mitchell. It's The Treatment. All the lovers that have gone before They don't call me to you Don't be frightened Just give me a little bit more They don't call me