Richard Pryor’s daughter grapples with the complexities of a notorious word

0:00Support comes from SoCalREN, a regional energy network putting Southern California's energy commitment to work through financial incentives, hands-on support, and job training that help communities save energy and lower costs. Learn more at SoCalREN.org. From KCRW Santa Monica and KCRW.com, it's The Treatment.

0:27Welcome to The Treatment. I'm Elvis Mitchell. My guest is a professor and now an author. Her book is Something We Said, Richard Pryor, A Notorious Word, and Meme. My guest is Elizabeth Storda Pryor. First of all, I can't thank you enough for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. You start the book where you teach, and you also did a TED lecture about this, a TED talk. If you can talk us through a little bit of what happened, because I'd like to get into it, because that's a great way to start the book. Yeah, well, I was in my second semester teaching here at Smith College, and I was teaching a course on the Civil War and a lesson about the fugitive slave law.

1:09And one of my students raised their hand and I was, you know, very happily called on them. And they asked me if I'd seen Blazing Saddles, which completely threw me because that's a film that my father co-wrote with Mel Brooks. And I thought the student was trying to out me as Richard Pryor's daughter, something I never spoke about in the classroom and rarely spoke about in my personal life. And so I little snippily turned back to my lecture, but the student could not contain themselves and wanted to connect with me and ended up blurting out a line from the film that had two slurs in it, one for people of Chinese descent and one the N-word.

1:50Only the students said both of the slurs. And I froze. That moment, like I really, I just kind of flipped out. And it set me on the journey that, you know, becomes this book. A journey looking at the way the N-word had operated in my personal life, how I would approach it as a teacher and a professor in the classroom, but also forced me to ask myself if I even knew what the word meant. And I started to dig in the research. And as I researched the word more and more, I realized I couldn't read anything without my father's name coming up. And so it just came full circle that way. I'm remembering from your TED talk about this you talk about staying away from that word and also wondering if that was going to cost you some currency because it meant that if you weren't saying if you said the N-word instead, if you used a euphemism you wouldn't be regarded as a serious scholar and I was fascinated that there'd be that kind of schism and that you thought you'd be judged as a scholar by trying to stay away from a word that clearly caused wounds for lots of people Well, there is this so-called mention exception where people are like, yeah, we're not going to call anybody the word.

3:09I think people are fairly agreed, I mean, not in all walks of life, but fairly agreed that that's pretty egregious to call somebody the name. But what we are going to do is when it appears in historical documents or when we're even talking about it, we can say the word. And that's the mention exception. And I don't think that works because that requires us to pretend as if the word, when said, isn't doing harm in the here and now, even if we're talking about the past. You share something with your father. You both use verbiage. verbiage, use words to sort of get a take on a situation and to get control of it.

3:49And your father, the way you describe him in the book, is such a thoughtful, gentle person who is this thing that we don't think about with comedians, that they're often actors on stage and are different people in real life. But when he got angry, he would immediately lose control. There'd be this flash of temper. And for you, that loss of control kind of manifests as hurt and anxiety. And so often around the use of the N-word. And it's interesting because that kind of loss of control really sends you into trying to figure out ways to investigate why you're feeling the way you're feeling. I mean, yeah, that's such a great way of putting it.

4:30I mean, I lost control of my classroom. That's absolutely what happened. But I think I also lost control of my memories. I felt like I had reckoned and wrestled with this word by the time I got to the classroom. I had made a decision. I was never going to say it. I just felt all buttoned up. And I think that moment in the classroom told me, unless you do some really deep work, you are not buttoned up around this. because the N-word, it's a representation. It's a word, but it also represents a larger ideology of race in the United States. And that's what I hadn't really reckoned with in that moment.

5:17That's what, you know, came home to roost. We should say it's the treatment, I guess, that's a little bit stored her prior. Her book is Something We Said, Richard Pryor, A Notorious Word, and Me. So much of the book is about your own evolution and finding yourself. And it's fascinating to me that you start the book at this point where you think you knew yourself as an adult and as a professional, and you immediately brought back all the hurts that this slur caused. It's a current that runs throughout the book about you're dealing with your own past and the past history of the world, but also who you want to be in that present moment.

5:52As I was falling apart in that moment, I also became aware that I wasn't taking care of my students. I think that was part of the vulnerability as well, especially my Black students. in the class, like, I was like, holy, you know, moly, like, I just let them experience this without really, I mean, I tried to intervene. I did try to intervene. But with, you know, I think many other people would have who maybe were less confused about this history within themselves. I'm biracial, my mother's Jewish, my father's black. I've always had a very complicated relationship with the N word. It's always for me represented, you know, kind of two things at once, which is like this virulent, violent, horrible history used against me and wielded against me something I'm never going to be a part of, a power I'll never have.

6:45But also, in the subversive way that my father used it in his comedy, in the satirical and kind of mode of protest and camaraderie that Black people from, you know, certain communities use among themselves, I wasn't party to that either because I, you know, I had this white mom and was raised in white neighborhoods and went to white schools. And it just kind of fell apart in my mouth when I even considered using it. And so there was a way that the word just always made me feel like I didn't belong no matter, you know, no matter where I stood in the world. It's interesting because I think that the thing that connects you and your father, and I wonder if you talked about this before, is you both have this kind of interest in the epistemological.

7:32And that word, I can't think of another word that triggers more than that word. But also you were talking about the way your father used it, that it was subversive, but it was subversive and combative at the same time. Because it's one of those words that cannot exist on just one plane. I mean, I think that was my biggest discovery. So going into the project, I really hadn't listened to my father's comedy very much. And that's because of my, in part because of my age. I was a, you know, a child during the 70s when many of his most, you know, important works were produced. I had seen him live in concert.

8:11I had even listened a little bit to some of the albums, but I didn't really understand them. And then like through the rest of my life, I kind of almost arrogantly felt like, you know, hey, I know him better. You know, I know what he likes to eat for dinner. I don't want to know what everybody else knows. And so many people felt close to him through his comedy. Like I wanted to have this special relationship. So it wasn't until I realized that if I was really going to call myself a scholar of the N-word, I had to be familiar with the work of Richard Pryor. I mean, that was just clear that I started to sink into his work and really listen to it.

8:52And I could see exactly the multifaceted ways that he used this word. I'd written an essay about the word being two words in, you know, one word for Black people and one word for white people. on. There really were two words. But I think, you know, as I write in the book, really my father made it into this, you know, multiverse, this universe. People felt the sense of proprietorship about your father. A student talking about that scene from Blazing Saddles, even though your dad's not in the movie, is something that's very much the kind of thing that he would say that would immediately get a reaction, make people laugh, make them almost choke on a laugh and think, oh, that's me, or that's my worst version of fear of myself.

9:35But because your knowledge of him was truly intimate. And the thing that's amazing to me about the book too, Elizabeth, is that there's so much about anger and regret in the same moment. Again, which is about the kind of bifurcated response that this word always generates, that even among people of color, it has many different weights and meanings. I mean, that's so true. And he was trying to make people reckon with their own racism. I think about this a lot because we're in a particular moment that we're in. And the way that my father was able to entertain, perform for mixed race audiences and really both put them at ease, but also make them laugh at their own selves in ways that maybe they hadn't expected to.

10:26and it is it's like both a a way of being vulnerable of putting kind of the spotlight on his own foibles and issues but also calling out this undercurrent this constant undercurrent of racism in the united states through his flagrant use of the word clearly there's a lot to talk about with my guest, Elizabeth Storter Pryor. Her book is Something We Said, Richard Pryor, A Notorious Word, and Me. It's the treatment. There's more to come. Stay with us. Support comes from SoCal Wren. SoCal Wren is a regional energy network putting Southern California's energy commitment to work in the community. SoCal Wren partners with neighborhoods, schools, small businesses, farms, and tribal communities to deliver financial incentives, hands-on support, and job training that helps Southern Californians save energy and lower costs.

11:25Real programs designed and delivered locally. Learn more at SoCalWren.org. It's the treatment. We're not going to leave the game in the locker room with my guest, Elizabeth Stutter-Pryor. Her book is Something We Said, Richard Pryor, a notorious word and meme. You, from a young age, want to be a caretaker. You're really aware of the way people are feeling around you, but also want people to see you too. And again, I think that's something that you have in common with your father, who in his way, want to take care of people because he want people to see what they were. But he also wanted them to see who he was too.

12:01I mean, so the ways in which you and your father have this vibe that kind of runs through you genetically is kind of astonishing. Chang. I love that. Thank you very, very much. I mean, to be compared to him like that is pretty much everything. I have so much admiration for him. I never quite thought about him as a caretaker, but I can see that. I think of that, you know, when he was good, he was very, very good. And when she was bad, she was horrid. You know, my father was, could be, you know, super, super, present and super absent. But when he was present, in those magical moments, like, I don't think anybody has ever seen me as astutely as my father was able to.

12:56And it's pretty powerful to be seen by him. You do that in the book, those moments when that does happen. There's also these moments because I think the responsibility of what he did, there's a really heart-rending episode in the book, anecdote in the book section, I should say, where you get into, as a teenager, you get into an argument with your mom and she uses that word on you. And then you take a long time to not to, before you decide you're going to tell your father, and you're sure that when you told them that, about that incident, that caused a rift between them that never healed. Yeah.

13:34it never did it was so funny because my father this isn't really in the book he recycled the women in his life you know he came back to them and there are a lot of things that you know happen that you know I'm not necessarily privy to but but you know hard breakups and then the women would be back. And so I have to say, it took me by complete surprise that this was the line for him. And it was very powerful for me. It meant, so this is maybe where he's the caretaker. I felt cared for, even as it made my life very, very difficult not having my mother around to help me negotiate and navigate some of the chaos that surrounded him.

14:26I didn't. You know, once that happened, she didn't come around anymore. And she came around a lot before that. But he was like, no, this will not do. And basically cut her out of his life from that point going forward. Again, one of the reasons I say caretaker is that with audiences, and caretaker doesn't necessarily mean gentle. I mean, also it can mean taking a firm hand and saying, look in the mirror. This is who you are. This is what we are. If we don't pay attention, because there's a moment you mentioned from the second movie from Live on the Sunset Strip, where he talks about going to Africa and what he doesn't see.

15:08And that moment, you reflect back on that moment too, or when you kind of flash forward later in the book, and you talk about a kind of a mock funeral for the N-word and how it was just this thing that would never die. It's almost like a creature from Bram Stoker. You can put it in the ground. It's still going to dig its way out. But this sort of sense of constant reckoning and being a caretaker and sort of saying, if you're an adult, you kind of say, this is the world. And either you live with this, not you live with it. You have to understand that this is your part in it. And I wonder if him drawing that line between you and your mother is this way, almost saying, gee, I wonder how much I'm responsible for this by putting this word out there in a way that makes people feel they can use it almost wantonly.

15:56this semester at Smith where I teach I taught a course called Richard Pryor's America but one of the interesting points that one of my students had was like because we were talking about his decision to kind of relinquish the word and and disavow it and that Africa had a big part in that but that maybe there was something else and the way that when you're a performer I was thinking about Gary Coleman, for example, like, what you talking about, Willis? And how many people probably said that line to him over and over and over and over in his career. And that with my father was that the N-word, right?

16:36Where he has people walking up to him. Is that the Richard Pryor tagline among many, right? That people may have repeated to him. You know, so he says in Live on the Sunset Strip, he talks about Africa being this very important kind of diasporic moment of epiphany. In another version, like the album version, he talks about a sense of responsibility for kind of proliferating this word into the world that he had set out to do something good. And he was no longer feeling good about the life, you know, its own life that it had taken on. It's the treatment. My guest is Elizabeth Storter Pryor. Her book is something we said, Richard Pryor, a notorious word in May.

17:28The more favorites he got, the more he was surrounded by people they sort of couldn't trust. I want to ask you about this. In a lot of ways, you and your sister, Rain, come to feel like oases for him. I hope that's true. And I love hearing that. I really do. You know, it was hard for him, I think, to trust. and you know I'm thinking about a poem that I I wrote for him when he was when I was like 11 which is about people taking his money I don't even know how I got this insight as a little kid but I was like you know the people had taken his money and slapping him inside out was like a couple of the lines but I I had a sense you know even as a little kid that things were odd you know people laughed at him when he wasn't meaning to be funny or you know people were around him when maybe they didn't necessarily want to be.

18:32He couldn't trust it. So, yeah, I think that was really hard for him. And the type of person that he was, which is like, you know, he wasn't as much out like in celebrity that we understand today, like where people are getting photographed a lot in public and stuff like that. Like a lot of what happens, like happened in his house, the people that he invited into his own home and how his fame overwhelmed him even in his like private sanctuary. I think that's really finally the power of your book that it's about you trying to figure out who you are and the same way that your father was trying to figure all that stuff out on stage and in his home and just how volatile and loving the situation all that was.

19:22That's when I started to really study his notebooks that my mother had saved for when I became an adult. I saw how much he interrogated. He was unflinching when he was looking and studying himself. And he grew up in this real Jim Crow world. And he was in Illinois, but it might as well have been the South in terms of the way that he grew up in, you know, a segregated world. He grew up in poverty, in an underground economy. His family made their living in sex work. His grandmother was a madam. You know, these weren't things that he could, you know, talk about in school, right? What does your father do?

20:14Come in for back to work day or whatever they call that. But he figured out a way, which I think is part of his genius and part of his contribution to all the artists that follow, is that he figures out a way to step into his authenticity, the truth of growing up in a racist world, in a difficult circumstances in that racist, personal difficult circumstances in that racist world, and figuring out a way to tell that truth and universalize it and to make it funny all at the same time. You do that in your book as well. I should say my guest is Elizabeth Stord, her prior. Her book, which is based on one of her father's albums, is something we said.

20:59Richard Pryor, A Notorious Word in Me. Thank you so much for doing this. I can't thank you enough. Thank you so much for having me. It was an incredible conversation.

21:12No place to go But if I ever get my hands on that dollar again Elizabeth Pryor is a professor, an historian, and now the author of a new book, Something We Said, Richard Pryor, A Notorious Word, and Me. Her father was the late and legendary actor, writer, and comedian, Richard Pryor. Find other conversations about explorations of comedy and culture with authors such as PBS News anchor Jeff Bennett at the archive, kcrw.com slash thetreatment. Hear comedian Chris Redd on the impact of one, Richard Pryor, at kcrw.com slash thetreat. Our series on creators reliving beats of inspiration. The latest comes from another child of a famous and prolific father, Mario Van Peebles, on how travel keeps him stimulated.

22:15The show is produced and edited by Rebecca Mooney and mixed by Katie Gilchrist. To better days, everyone, I'm Elvis Mitchell. It's The Treatment. No, no, no, nobody need you. Well, nobody wants you. Baby, when you're down and down KCRW's sponsors include Netflix, presenting Remarkably Bright Creatures. Now nominated for three Emmy Awards, including Outstanding Movie. Starring Emmy Award-nominated lead actress Sally Field, Screen Rant hails Remarkably Bright Creatures, a stunning, emotionally resonant film.