Yorgos Lanthimos on not giving all the answers in Bugonia

0:00From KCRW Santa Monica and KCRW.com, it's The Treatment.

0:14Welcome to The Treatment. I'm Elvis Mitchell. My guest, who is not nearly as combative as he was the last time he was here, has enjoyed some success since he was last here for the film, The Favorite. His newest film as director is Borgonio. Of course, I'm talking to Yorgos Lanthos. It's a pleasure to have you back. I'm not going to mention the NBA at all until we're done. But what I will say to you is this, in this film especially, I just found myself really thinking about the sounds. Like there's a kind of a bookend with the sound of bees buzzing. Yeah. Which is kind of beautiful and ominous at both the beginning and the end of the film.

0:49And then nature. Yes. Like there's a long duration of nature at the end credits, which a friend of mine said is the best part of the movie.

1:06which you know i understand what he's talking about and also gives people hope in a way nature and the possibility of a new beginning uh or survival through that in a way i think a lot of times your films are kind of comedy about hope just because at some point there's the films are all about transformation and the fear of transformation but then what happens after that because so often movies deal with that fear and then that's kind of the end of the movie but yours are along with the fear of the transformation the moment of transformation and then what that transformation does how people live with that afterwards yeah i think it's uh you know trying to question, you know, structures, societal structures, rules in relationships or whatever that may be.

2:04And I think that's probably where transformation comes because you're like, you're used to, people are used to adopt certain behaviors without thinking about it too much or what led them to have those behaviors. And when they do, there's a choice to be made, whether they, you know, keep following those rules and if they think those rules make sense, or if they don't. And then they need to make that step and make that decision that they're going to break free from that. And I guess that's like a very substantial transformation for a human. But also, too, there's often a character who has to be brought into this world by somebody else.

2:48It's a hard movie to talk about without giving too much away. Yeah. And I don't want to do that because I want people to... There's so much pleasure to be had in it. But there's a moment of kind of a chemical transformation that's talked about at the beginning of the movie. Yeah. That's terrifying. And that happens almost in the first third of all your movies where somebody's being told, well, this is what's going to happen to you. Trust me. It's going to be okay. Have you done this already? Yeah. What you want to do is this. I mean, that moment to me is almost kind of like the Yorgos Lanthimos moment where, is this person going to do this or not?

3:21And Parv is thinking, please don't do that. But the interesting thing about, you know, this film is like you've, there's so many things that you take for granted and you think that you know, you know what these people are and what their intentions are and where they come from i'm talking about all the characters and it kind of the film as it progresses it challenges your bias about you know those kind of things and i think that's part what you're describing is part of that like you're going you're you're thinking that they're probably making some a terrible mistake you know and in in some ways it is but also they do get certain things right um so it's an interesting one to follow and i think that's why it's always engaging as well and that's why i loved you know when i first read the screenplay that's why i loved it it really keeps you like guessing questioning but questioning yourself and how you feel and And, you know, who you root for.

4:30And, you know, as you mentioned, don't do that. Oh, yeah, maybe you should have done that. Or later you go like, oh, you were right. I didn't know that. Like, I didn't expect that. And then, again, like, take the rug out of your feet again. Like, it's just an interesting ride. It's a very interesting ride. We're talking about the powers of persuasion with my guest show, Ghost Lanthimos. This new film is Begonia. You can also see the show, kcrw.com is the treatment. But I just found myself thinking about it. For that moment, but there's also often in your films a moment where somebody has this kind of beatific look on their face.

5:07And Jesse Plymouth's character is watching a TV screen and seeing something happen. He's just, my dream has come true. That moment of almost childlike bliss. It could be a renaissance painting with like the old school, like sort of like glow around the character's heads. and it's even like that it's actually the source of comfort for me because it's the moment of calm yeah and there's also that like very uplifting grand music as well at the same time and he's you know he goes back home tending to his bees and this huge way over the top like yeah music that kind of you know makes it feel even more grand yeah it's interesting though because your films aren't about ambiguity for me so much as they are about people being certain of something and that certainty we think is going to carry us through but it turns out there's more to that character's position than we know so it's about giving information that both brings us closer and makes these people more of a puzzle I mean because there is a sequence with a police car but when that happens It's like, oh, oh, oh.

6:26Because also not only does that scene work in such a great way, but also it tells us that this is going to be different than Save the Green Planet. Yeah. Where a lot of information is revealed and that doesn't happen. There's implication here. But Jesse's character is so fixated that we're not sure how much what he's saying is real, how much is delusional. And that's, again, for me, the power of this. and that you give these characters who other people might make ambiguous. You say, no, if we carry these characters through with certainty throughout the entire film, then the audience is going to go, is he right?

7:02Which is a great question to have people ask, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I think ambiguity is not necessarily about understanding certain parts of the plot or whatever. Yes, that's not the point. And that's the difficult thing to try, you know, when you construct something to maintain that balance of giving enough information so people can follow and engage, but not too much so that it just becomes just predictable and boring and redundant. And so, yeah, I think it is very interesting to watch characters that are extremely sure of themselves. And, you know, then other characters questioning them more again.

7:50You as an audience member questioning them. And then, you know, the time comes where you question your views about what you were watching. You know, it's like almost like a triangle in a way, like the different characters. and the viewer, that's the fun part, to have that, well, it doesn't have to be a triangle, it can be a circle, to have them engage and give feedback. It's like a feedback loop in a way. Because part of this too, we should say also, Jesse's character, who is in his way kind of an environmental warrior, is kidnaps a captain of industry played by Emma Stone, who also has certainty in her life too.

8:37Exactly. I mean, that collision of people who know what they think Magnetic North is and the sparks that fly from that. I mean, first of all, that's got to be so much fun for actors to play. Somebody who knows what they know and we don't know if it's right or wrong or not. And that's got to be the thrill of it for them. Yeah, I think it was very exciting for both of them and it was great that they had worked together before. With you, yeah. Yeah, on Kinds of Kindness. And actually, that was kind of an intense program. Oh, my gosh. Because it was, you know, basically, you know, three different stories in one film.

9:17So it was almost like making three different films with them. They had to play three different characters in the film. So it was like an intense workshop. And so they had this going for them. And then there was a great script by Will Tracy. and they really loved having the opportunity to do very long scenes without them being too fragmented and interrupted and feed off of each other in this dynamic. And I think Emma talks about that a lot, that it was the first time playing a character where she actually thought beforehand how it would feel if someone watched the film a second time because of the things the character knows and the viewer doesn't know and, you know, as gradually things are revealed, how would it be, you know, watching it again knowing what you know at the end of the film?

10:15So that was like a complexity that was interesting for them as well and especially her character. We're going to take a break and come back and talk more about geometric shapes with my guest, Yorgos Lantermos. His newest film as director is Borgogna. it's the treatment there's more to come stay with us

10:38we're still not talking about basketball with Yorgo Slantimos it's the treatment his newest film his director is Bogonia I think because there's that person who so wants to be do the right thing and to be heard I mean there's a kind of a purity in these characters no matter what their actions are that I just find myself going back to rewatch the film several times just to sort of see that because there's almost a kind of a candy like quality in some of these characters. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, I mean, like, for example, I also love Don, like Aiden, Aiden's character, talking about those qualities.

11:16He really exemplifies those characters. He really is. He wants this one thing so much. And again, you have this character, this goes back to what we were talking the first half, transformation. This character wants to be taken to another place. physically or figuratively. Yeah. There's a certain kind of sensitivity in that character, although, again, he might be doing crazy things or following someone like Teddy who appears to be doing crazy things. And that's Jesse Plemons' character. That's the Jesse Plemons' character. And it was important for me to have someone like Aiden, who Aiden, first of all, it's his first film.

11:56He's not a trained actor yet. And I was going to ask, where did you find him? Yeah, Aidan DelBees. He was like, he turned 18, I think, when we started filming. It was street casting. I knew that I wanted for this third character, after we cast Emma Stone and Jesse Plemons, I knew that for the third main character, I wanted someone who was not a professional actor, which is something that I do in all of my films. But obviously, this is like in a greater scale. I mean, it's the third character in the film. And there was something about having someone who's neurodivergent. Aiden is autistic, and he prefers that term.

12:39And I just felt that this kind of sensitivity and worldview would bring so much to this character, which was kind of on the page. I mean, it was not written as someone who was neurodivergent, but you can sense from the writing that it could be someone like that. That he had a certain, again, sensitivity about the world and things around him. And basically, he represented the soul of the film or rationality. Because he's the one character who still has curiosity about the world. His vision isn't fully formed yet. Exactly. And he questions a lot of things. But he's also very loyal to his cousin, Jesse Plemons' character.

13:26He's very loyal. And although the whole way he's kind of questioning what's happening, he's still out of love, wants to be loyal. But he's questioning it in a way that's honest. And that's why Jesse's character can go, no, I see what you're saying, but no, that's not what it is. It's so hard to not give it away. Gosh. Well, let's give away some things. Choose one. Tell them the title. The movie is Borgoni. It's a director sitting across from me. Yogos Lanthimos has been away from the show for way too long. It's The Treatment, by the way. But I think that character, and we talked about you using non-professionals last time you were here.

14:04That character is often the person who has this wish for something. It's almost like Pinocchio wishing to be a real boy. And there's a kind of purity to that wish. And that doesn't mean that they're completely beholden to that wish. that they ask questions because finally either literally or figuratively children in some way they're still growing up these could be movies like one wrong step could be incredibly cynical and there's nothing cynical about your work and and that's the beauty of it to me and by having these characters who represent always having somebody represents a kind of a a curiosity and innocence in these things and that's really hard to make happen yeah purity and honesty i I mean, that's what I saw in Aiden.

14:44Like he's so, there's no filter. I mean, him as a person, but also he, I loved him bringing this kind of approach for the character as well. I wish, you know, more people could be like that in real life, that kind of directness and honesty and purity and just speaking your mind. And yeah, it's just rare. This is the great thing about your casting. In fact, we talked about this the last time you were here. With non-actors, you can see when they're listening. Exactly, yeah. There is no filter about it. You don't see them acting listening. They're either listening or they're doing this in front of the camera.

15:24Yeah. And also they affect the actors in the scene in a very different way because actors don't know what to expect from someone who doesn't have that experience or hasn't honed that skill or whatever that is. They can come out of nowhere. where they can do something totally unexpected. So it creates a very interesting tension, a very positive tension on set and during the scenes because, you know, this uncertainty, like, stirs up a lot of things, and it allows actors to also approach something differently and feel that they have the license to do that, having someone in front of them who's not going to necessarily react the way it's expected from them.

16:13So I always appreciate that kind of dynamic on a film set. And with Aiden, it was like a hundred times more this time. This is interesting to me too, because as often as not a feeling, movies are kind of about somebody being eager for experience and have an actor like this who literally is eager for experience because he's taking all this in for the first time. he becomes for me this kind of central metaphor of what the film is, which is an eagerness for the future. And that's both kind of the terror of the film and its inherent sweetness is this hunger for a future. A different future, yes. He doesn't appreciate the current state of things.

16:57That's why he wants to... I mean, he wants to leave, in a way. Oh, literally. Or literally. as well but you know he he would love for things to be different and so does teddy jesse's character and so does emma's character but there is i mean this is her character in the favor i mean it's it's this is kind of colin in lobster yeah the funny thing in this one is like they kind of all are have the same goal in a way but they don't really know it and that's you know the irony of this thing is that, you know, they kind of want the same thing. They all have... In the way that we find that they all want things to be better, even though we don't believe it from almost any of them when we meet them.

17:46Yeah, they have different ways of approaching that goal. But you're attracted to those kinds of characters, characters who have this appetite for experience and these characters who are transformed by this appetite for experience. And I wonder if you can identify where that comes from, how far back that goes. with things you've seen, the things that attracted you to, like, telling stories in the first place? Because it's something that I think is that sort of eagerness, it's hard for people to put that on screen, and you do it so consistently. Yeah, I mean, I guess I always had a, always questioned authority in a way and, you know, social structures.

18:29I don't know where it comes from. You know, growing up in Greece, especially at that time, like in the 90s, there was no film industry. It wasn't like a thing you could say that you would do, like as a, you know, sane young person. I started by doing commercials and then I, you know, I got really competent technically. And then I started being interested in films. and it became apparent to me that you could make films without needing much in terms of like, you know, either funding or resources. You know, you could just gather a group of people that loved making films and just do that. And so it was like the other way around, like starting from something which is, you know, making a living and selling something and doing commercials to finding what it is that I'm really interested in and understanding that I can actually maybe do it in a different way, not necessarily the way you knew it's supposed to happen, that you have to have a script and then you have to find money and then you have a distributor and then you do it.

19:43Just finding alternative ways of achieving what you want. I mean, at least in my case, it worked. And yeah, I don't know if that kind of gave me a certain kind of push to think like, okay, let's question what other things are, not necessarily how we perceive them or how people are saying they're supposed to be. So maybe there's something in that that enabled me to be more interested in those kind of things. I guess I'll leave you in that point and hope you come back in less than six years to do the show again. My gosh, my guest is Yorgos Lanthimos, NBA fan and... NBA hater. NBA hater, just because he's misinformed.

20:32But more importantly, the director of the terrific new film, Bogonyi. It's so great to see you. Thanks for coming back. Thank you for having me.

20:44Director Yorgos Lanthimos was last here for his film The Lobster. Since then, he's guided Emma Stone to a Best Actress Oscar nomination for his film The Favorite and a Best Actress win for his film Poor Things. His most recent collaboration with Stone, Begonia, also got her a nomination for Best Actress as well as a Best Picture nod. Previous conversations with Lanthimos and other creative achievers at kcrw.com slash the treatment. You can also find thoughts on inspiration from creators at kcrw.com slash the treat. And the newest installment comes from Oscar winner Guillermo del Toro, whose film Frankenstein was also nominated for Oscars this year.

21:31He talks about his affection for a particularly outrageous and talented filmmaker. And please visit kcrw.com slash surveys where you can tell us who you are and how you listen to the treatment. The show is produced and edited by Rebecca Mooney and mixed by Katie Gilchrist. To better days, everyone, I'm Elvis Mitchell. It's the treatment.