20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

25:20So the CAC is irrelevant. CAC is irrelevant, you know, because if I was to give CAC targets, then we would only do maybe TikTok for example. And that doesn't make any sense, right? Because I won't get my ROI. So we never look at CAC. Is that hard for a team to adjust to? No, I don't think so. It's only about, it's only about... You have to stomach that for a while, which is kind of interesting, because you have to accept paying high -caxx without seeing the Hiroi for a little bit of time. Yeah, but I mean, the thing is, because we go gradually, very quickly, if you build good analytical models, you know very quickly whether the cohorts you're acquiring are the good ones.

26:00How do you know? I mean, and that's why the growth is exponential. Because today I know a lot more than a year ago or than two years ago. So my models are better, so I know better where the good cohorts are and how much I'm ready to pay. Are there models transferable on a country by country basis? Yeah, they're. Really? Why would London versus Birmingham would be closer than London versus Paris? There's no reason. The country definition beyond language is completely arbitrary. Sure, I didn't know if London versus Brazil could be different. Brazil has very different ways of paying for things. I have different ways of bulking payments.

26:39Yeah, I mean, that's fair. But you adapt your model depending on the product that you sell. You know, we're not selling the same product, necessarily, in the same market. So you can cut it down at the product level. But then the other day, if it's a debit card, a debit card, then if it's FX, it's FX. How do you choose which markets to go to? Well, we want to be everywhere. Like the objective for us is to be in every single market. I mean, we don't say we want to be there and not there. No, we want to be everywhere. So we just take the list and we try to see which ones are probably easier, quicker and so on.

27:10But at the end of the day, we want to be everywhere. Which market was the worst or hardest? And what did you learn from it? If I parked China, obviously, which is a very different market. It's quite a difficult one. Yeah, it's not easy. I don't know if you want to get your hands on it. When it's only a billion, yeah, so on, yeah, found the right. So let's park China for a second. And you see that's the thing that I've seen as well. My experience at King was the most important. I think the idea of localization is completely overrated. I don't believe in localization. That we saw in at King. It was the same creative working globally everywhere with one exception, Japan.

27:48Japan is different. I have to say, Japan is a different beast. But the rest is the same. It's one global market. And I think that the consumer interest, what people are clicking on, is the exact same thing. The extra performance you would get by being a lot more localized is not worth the effort. And that's what we are seeing. I mean, like at King, and we see that the same, at Revolut. I mean, we became number one in Romania and Norway with the exact same strategy, the same thing. you know, like, and the people say, I'm in Europe, but I mean, if you've been to Romania, I know where you would realize it's not exactly the same culture in the same country.

28:26People say the most important thing for Avaluit to prove out is its ability to be the primary account and the percent of primary accounts is still low. How do you think about focusing on that versus being everywhere to everyone? The strategy at Avaluit, it's very simple, you know? Obviously, we want people to use us as a primary bank. We don't need everyone to do it now. That's the big difference with let's say any other banks when you decide to move from HSBC to Barclays you make a conscious decision that I'm moving there why Revolute we more well like a snack so you you want to take a bite You know so you try Revolute and then maybe because you go on holiday You know and you need a card to go on holiday.

29:06Okay fine. Then you come back from holiday So well, you know, maybe I want to do a bit of Trading and stuff, you know by some ETFs and so on so you then you buy some it's so then I mean that's a bit of savings maybe I can put a bit of savings. And then you go little by little, and then you reach a point. Maybe, I mean, for some people, it can take six months, for some people, it can take three years and so on. And you say, you know what? Actually, I have everything I need here. And then I'm moving there, you know? So, I'm not to say, I mean, it's pretty much what happened to me actually. And I started buying crypto on Ravolute.

29:35I started trading on Ravolute. And then I saw actually the interest rate options that you guys had on the premium, premium ones. I thought, fuck, that's pretty good. Yeah, I think that's the best. But that's a really interesting change in the adoption of bank accounts. Yeah, totally. You don't, we're not asking people say, hey, change bank. You're like encouraging promiscuity. Yeah, but comment trius. Yeah, but you know, comment trius. Just use it maybe when you go on holiday and let's find, you know, that's fine. And then maybe at some point, I'll be able to convince you with some specific product, some specific anything that ultimately will take you there.

30:06But like the idea is not to say, okay, by H2 2025, Everyone will have to be a pyramid. No, everyone takes at your own pace. You get there, you know, and it's fine So what's the most geometric fee then when you look at the numbers when you look at the analytics What's the like are we doing a good job determined three things? That's I obviously so the first thing is the volume of users, you know that we're getting the second thing is the ROI at which We are acquiring them was the payback in months and the last one is out of the people that are with us bit on that journey, you know, that I was explaining, I mean, how they're progressing towards becoming a primary user.

30:43Payback, what? How's that change over time? It doesn't necessarily change. I think, again, it all depends on the market, it's a market by market thing in some ways. We're very standardized, so it's very stable. It's very stable. We haven't changed much. What's the hardest thing about your role stay out on? It's a bit what I was saying about the living animal of the growth engine. I mean, we've built an engine that is working today, but it doesn't mean that it's going to work forever. You need to progressively evolve it, pieces by pieces. That's very difficult. When you know something works, and you need to keep it writing, so that you make sure it keeps working, and you keep being one step ahead of everyone.

31:25That's difficult. It's always this idea, of the cow getting eaten from the back, and you realize really late, But actually, you're gone, you know, staying on top of it, even though it's working really well, never be complacent about the success we have. We rarely look back at Revolut. We're never happy about our success. It's very rare to reach our targets. We never reach our targets, because our targets are much greater than what we are achieving. So I think if you never set targets, it can be hit. Does it not just lead to bad marks? I didn't have the day, you know, between the way this works and the way Google does O .K .Rs, you know, where we know, I mean, O .K .Rs, I mean, you know the theory about O .K .Rs, you should always be around 78 % of achievement.

32:10It's the same thing, you know. So you need to be ambitious, but realistic. Reaching 80 % of your target, that's good. You said there about kind of making sure that you're not the cow that gets eaten from behind. How do you do meetings with the growth team? What does that look like? Is it like a weekly brainstorm while I let you show shit at the wall and get creative? How does that look in terms the ideation amongst the growth team? Yeah, well we have a very, it's extremely standardized, extremely processed. We work on weekly cycles. In the growth team we have, I think it's 20, 25 different teams.

32:4420, 25 different teams. Yeah, because we work as a matrix, you know, so you have the China people and then you have the local people and all of those are teams, you know. And then we run, so I run weekly business review for all those teams, so I mean all the teams every week. And those are mostly, so obviously we review numbers, but it's more like problem solving sessions, you know, we bring a problem and we try to solve it together. And then they have a week, they solve it, and then we rate the rate the week after, we rate the rate, we rate the rate. I think the power of a very short cycles is that there's no time wasted in presenting in the sense that if you had a meeting only once a month and so on, you would actually spend, I mean, we know how teams are, they spend the last two, three days just preparing the presentation for the exec.

33:34So waste of time. Search potion. While when you run it every week, they're not preparing the meetings. So you just start the meetings, okay, so where are we at? And so on, you prepare a lot less, the meeting and you just bring the G -R -Ball, then you just bring the dashboard, then you just look at and then you just try to solve the problem, you know, with no specific preparation, and then you iterate, you iterate, you iterate, and then you get very regular feedback. So you don't get surprised, like you work on something for a month, and then you get, at some point you say, no, that's not the right direction, you need to go.

34:06So you call Scoric Things very, very quickly. How many of these meetings do you have? 20, 25 a week, yeah. 20s, 25 a week, and then half an hour each. Yeah. You must be constantly in these meetings. Yeah, but then I have only, I don't have ad hoc meetings. So there's already a meeting for every topic. So if you want to talk about something There is already a meeting for you to talk about it It's not like those agendas that look very different every week, you know like my agenda looks exactly the same I probably have my agenda until the end of year and mid next year and so on. It's already set I know exactly what I'm gonna do and then you just repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat How many people are in the team on the other end?

34:42Well, it depends depends on ones but between 10 and 40 That's a lot. How do you deal with ideas since this is the idea discussion? When shit, 40 people are sometimes on a cool. Yeah, but you know as well, those meetings are important, especially when we are remote working, because it helps connecting, and it's the place where you drive the culture. Even though you may not participate in that meeting, you see how it's happening. You see the expectations, you understand what we are trying to achieve, and how we are trying to deliver and so on. So it's a great way for you to understand how things are working.

35:18Are you able to be fully honest and true with all 40 people? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can tell you. I'm very transparent. I think that's the power of, of revolute and, and that's the same. I mean, with Nick and so on. I mean, like, we're working in full transparency. There's no surprises at revolute. Because if you take a decision and the decision is no, and then, and then you can appeal, you know, you know, to try to negotiate, to make it yes, like every company is do, you know, and then you add up time, you add up those ad hoc meetings, or let's do another meeting to really look at it and then do another one and so on.

35:51If we say yes, it's yes, if we say no, it's no, and then we move on. And there are some force positive. There are definitely some force positive where we may say yes, it should have been a no, and we said no, it should have been a yes. So I'm not saying it's perfect, it's not perfect at all, you know. But at least we move a lot faster. And yes, there are some costs in terms of for positive, but it's a lot more. It's a lot more powerful. I always think to Gustavus Spotify, who's the CPU of Spotify, and he says, he talk his cheap. So we should do a lot more of it. And it's, you know, the power of debate and discussion in teams.

36:22And it's just the flip side of this, which is nope, it's black or it's white. Yeah. Yeah, because you don't add up time. You go quicker. And then do you not lose creativity? Bound think creativity is necessarily no, because you iterate so much. you create more because you do more. You know, like for example, if I need to do an ad, but then if I spend three months talking about it instead of a week, I might only run two ads a year. Well, if I only talk about it for a week, I can run four a year. So I can iterate more. So I think, yes, maybe the inception time is shorter, much shorter. You know, so maybe yeah, there's less discussion, bouncing back and some bouncing IDs and so on.

37:03But because you do a lot more, at the end of the day, you get more stuff done. I think from creativity perspective, you see what? How do you think about roughly US? The US is always a big, golden nut crack. Everyone's tried it. How do you think about how to crack the US? It's interesting, because when you look at it, even local fintechs, they're not that big. No, I mean your chime is probably one of the biggest things. Yeah, I mean cash up is, but it's not that big. You know, when you consider the size of the US, you know, it's really poor. I mean, China, you know, is probably a quarter of the enterprise value of, of, probably now.

37:38I think there is a negative correlation between the maturity of the economy and the penetration of Fintech. Take the other example, Germany. Germany, like, like, like, like, there's no, I mean, like the penetration of Fintech. It's Germany's extremely low, extremely low, you know, as well. Why is that? Well, if you look at the penetration of Fintech in in India or in Pakistan or in some places in Africa, in Indonesia and in all those places. It's like way more mature. You have a lot more from a pretty interesting perspective. Why? It's a bit like in telecoms, the penetration of mobile actually weren't super high because ultimately what they did, the jump generation, they'd never built any ADSL cable, et cetera, et cetera.

38:22It's like, you know what? Screw it, we just jump directly to the next generation. You mentioned the global element of the Taiwan and Indonesia and then Germany. You live in Barcelona and you have a remote team. You very much believe in the power of remote teams. Did anyone pack that for me? Why? So not everything is good about remote. First of all, and that's the bad about remote. What about the human contact? I think as well at some point you need to be with people and so on, especially when you're only on in your carrier and so on for some people it doesn't doesn't work You know be alone at home and so on how often do you get together now once a year?

39:01So you do once a year meet ups. That's a frequent That's really good for the loneliness pandemic hold on Anton once you meet ups and that's the downside Why do we think it's great a few things that are very good you get a lot more efficient in the way you're running meetings Meetings are a lot more efficient when you run when you're when you run things when you run things remotely, meaning you can actually have meetings of 15 minutes or 30 minutes. You know, it works. You know, a meeting of 15 minutes remotely works. In the real world, it doesn't work. A meeting of 15 minutes. The second aspect, I feel like it's a great equalizer versus physical meetings in the sense that dominant people get flattened out by the video conference system.

39:46Like, for example, I do have, I know I have a dominant nature. So, where I sit in the room matters. And then the presence you can have physically, you know, in a meeting room matters, you know. Because we talk a lot about diversity in zone. I think the diversity aspect that is a bit overlooked is introvert versus extrovert. And I think in the world of remote, I think it gives a much stronger chance to introvert people, more introvert people, to have a deeper impact in meetings compared to in real life, the system into where you raise a hand to talk, and you don't really raise a hand in a physical meeting.

40:23Like some people just don't get the opportunity to say what they want to say in a physical meeting. Because it did not happen. People tend to cut off each other, etc. So sometimes the dynamic can be quite polluted. While when you are on the video conference, press the button to raise the hand, and then people will let you speak in a very polite way. So I think that works really well. That is the best invention. Do you not think that we need to develop some social skills and say, I'm so sorry, I'm too much. You might not have just jumped in here. Actually, I was thinking this. Like, I think we, but it's not easy for everyone to say that.

41:00No, but you learn and you grow. But that's how you do it. It's like anything you learn by doing. And we are creating an escape valve for people to not learn. And actually, the lessons for everything in life is in the cracks. Many come out of a customer pitch and on the tube home, you're like, How did you notice about that? What did we do? Well, what did we not do? Well, you never have post mortems in a remote world. Ever. Well, yes and no. So because the way we work, the post mortem, I have all my business review, as I was mentioning, but then I have the same ones as one of ones with the lead of every single of those business review that I use as feedback session of the previous business review.

41:38But then you got 50 main things away. Yeah. Ultimately, you know, it's a loop where I use business review where I give a lot of my inputs. I use my 101s to receive the feedback from what we talked about. And that's this way. I have a touch point pretty much every other day with all my team leads, etc., you know, whether it's in a meeting or whether it's in 101, and then we close the loop so that we do have the feedback loop. You do with the lead. But the 10 people beneath them who are... But they do the same on their side at their level, you know? And you think that's the same? Yeah, I mean, that's the objective here.

42:16Because is it right after the meeting? Well, I mean, as it's every week, it's either before or after, you know, it's like, because if it's one or two days before or one or two days after, it's like, it's more, you don't see it as before or after, it's just a cycle, you know? It's like, so you get always the feedback loop. What's in a problem solving interview? Well, it's like a case study, we tell you, okay, I have this problem. them, I mean, it can be a marketing campaign, et cetera, et cetera. And then we ask the candidate, what do you think the problem is? And how would you solve it and so on?

42:43So it has nothing to do with what you've done or seen in the past, but it's more about how do you decompose and simplify the problem? Because at the end of the day, every problem is quite simple. You just need to slice it at the right level of granularity so that suddenly a big problem just becomes 10 small problems. And then you saw them one by one, and then you get there. and you don't try to find the miracle solution by being Einstein and super complexified. No, I mean, there's no need for that. Just do it simple, keep it simple. What are the biggest mistakes do you think people make in hiring and growth?

43:15I think they hire a generous people to run stuff. So they end up running many things in a pretty average way. So it's better to do less and deeper than try to have a lot of breath and do many things in the just okay -ish way. And then the higher growth managers, which I've no idea what the growth manager is, are they manage growth? Yeah, but like, yeah, but what is growth? What is growth? Is it varieties, is it performance marketing, is it some brand marketing aspect? What is it? Is it pricing? Well, I mean, you can do anything, you know? Well, you said what is growth? When we're chatting for you, Bench and 10X or 100X, the thing I'm never sure about with growth, is like is gross roll?

44:01Let's try this big picture new product is going to change rave loop forever or is it let's iterate on all of these little things that combined will add up to a big thing. Definitely the second one. I'm a huge advocate of the second one. I give you a very simple analogy you know look at usenbolt. Everyone remembers usenbolt all right but he was not winning by much. He was not winning by 10x. He was winning by a hundredth of a second and so on because he was able to optimize the departure, this, etc. So he was not 10x better than everyone. By the end, everyone thinks he was 10x better. You see what I mean?

44:40And it's because growth is a bidding war. It's a bidding war. It's about whether you're able to bid above everyone else on all the different channels. The question is, how are you able to bid above everyone and how do you optimize every single step so that you're the winner taxidole, in growth, the winner taxidole. And that's why it's ultimately because you optimize every single part of either the funnel, either the creative, either your bidding strategy, etc. It's every single element that's like small increment of 1 % here, 2 % there, etc. That add up to put you on top of the waterfall and to take it all.

45:20So people are wrong to think that it is these kind of moon shot paths. So they fish for the moon shot and so on while actually it's just down there being an excellent execution, everything you do at the lowest level of granularity and once you have everything, that's why you know what I was saying. If someone asked me what is the success of revolut? It's a million things. What if you not optimise with rapidly yet that you need to optimise? I mean I think we're still very much at the beginning of building our brand marketing. I think we're still a very young brand. That's probably the biggest work that we have ahead of us is to find the right way to position the brand and inspire people.

46:02That's the biggest. What is great brand? Main tea. So first of all, about brand. The question is where does brand fit? Is brand a marketing thing or a product thing? Because a lot of people So think about brand on marketing. I give you two examples, out of sample of two, which is king and revolut, the brand was much bigger before a single dollar of marketing was spent. So the brand had nothing to do with marketing. That was huge brand before putting any pen. Do you not use it as both? I'll take the iPod. Okay, it's the way that it was boxed, the way that it felt, the scroll wheel, the white silver, the product.

46:43But it was also the brilliance of a thousand songs in your pocket, the white background, the beautiful pictures, it was a combination that made it pop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's in between. I think in the early days, it's definitely more product thing. And then it becomes with the maturity a bit more of a marketing thing. But I think we take too much of a shortcut, putting brand in marketing and saying, well, you know, what brand is marketing problem? I think it's not. It's about, as you said, it's the user experience, you know, it's like how the product make you feel and so on. And then what marketing does, marketing is just an amplifier or a catalyst into it.

47:17You know, we just try to amplify whatever it makes you feel, I'll just make it bigger, feel it more and so on. But at the end of the day, it's still the product that is starting the journey. The brand journey is starting there. What brand do you respect most today? And why then? I mean, you mentioned Apple. I mean, obviously Apple is a great brand because they've done, they've done something that is quite amazing. I mean, Apple and as well, some of the luxury brands like Louis Vuitton and so on, which is quite amazing that they've developed a luxury positioning for mass market. Is there anything you think people fuck up with brand?

47:49Yeah, I think the biggest fuck up that I see, especially more in the early days of startups, is that you can hear founders that say, my product is great, but then marketing is rubbish, because they don't let people know how great my product is and have no brand awareness, so I need to invest in the brand and so on for to boost my growth. And I always reply, well, if your product was so good, people would know about it. You know, if you believe if so, they will come. If it's a great product. Well, I think investing in brand in the early days is the worst decision you can make. Because you should just put it all in product early.

48:26Yeah, you put in product and then you drive conversion and so on. But starting building top of the funnel and trying to build brand and so on in the early days, I think is a mistake. and saying that what is hindering your growth is your brand awareness, I think is a mistake, you know, like there is a correlation between brand awareness and product penetration, but you need to think about where the causality is. Is your penetration driven by a brand awareness? Or is your brand awareness driven by product penetration? And in the early days, I think the causality is the other way around. And then at a later stage, you can start because you need to open the funnel and so on, because you need to go into new segments, because once you've highly penetrated one segment, you need to go to another segment and then you can start using some brand marketing and so on to build Something a bit different to continue the growth.

49:13I think in the early days Actually your brand awareness is driven by your product penetration and not the other way around What product did you think would have the most impact that in the end ended up having the least? The crypto exchange was a great was a great product. I mean, it's doing good I did not necessarily pick up the way we wanted. Does anyone use the airport lounges? Yeah, that works. I mean, especially now I spot off the, you know, with the ultra subscription. Ultra is like the premium. Yeah, this is like the 600 quid a year one. Yeah, yeah, this is working. That's working. That's working.

49:46I mean, UK, France and those markets is working really well. What's the best thing that you get from it? Well, you get, so you get this, but as well, you get better interest rates as well on some of your saving accounts, you get a free subscription to FT, to other type of services. I mean, if you like brainchest .com, Platinum is coming for free and so on. So get a lot of add -ons on top of that. It's, oh, for 6 .00, yeah. Old for 6 .00, yeah. No, but I mean, you have a lot of cash in your account because the interest premium is gonna have to be big for that one. But you get, now as well, with launch ref points, you know, the loyalty program, which is giving you miles and so on.

50:26And it's almost, it's much stronger once you're I mean depending on which plan you're on and that drives a lot of loyalty. If what would make nothing a number of years what makes him so good? It's his resilience, his ability to focus, he mastered the helicopter view where he's flying around everything and then when he sees a problem he lends and he lends and then he cracks it and then he goes deep deep deep deep deep and then And once it's solved, takes off again, flies around. This is where there is another problem, lands, dig dig dig, fix it, and then starts again. And keeps on going. How have you changed as an operator working with him?

51:08I've taken his approach of managing my teams, what we said about beating them weekly. Yeah, I mean, like the whole problem solving thing. The whole, we're all here to solve problems. I'm not going in meetings to hear how good you're doing, which is what most meetings are about in the corporate world. You know, you bring the exec so that you do a nice presentation about how good your latest campaign was, and then you move to the next one, and then at the end, the diary of an exec is just that everyone is like, wow, we're amazing, and so on. And that's really not. That's it. Yeah, of course, it's important to see what's working well, But I really want to know where the problems are.

51:48We can find a solution collectively, you know, into solving it. That's the thing that is very, very powerful. I can talk to you all day, so I'm going to do a quick far around with you. I say, Shultz Damon, you give me your immediate thoughts. That's not a game. Okay, that's right. So what tactics and growth have not changed over the last five years? I think performance marketing is still the key. What tactics have died of death? I think variety is a lot more difficult than what used to be. Why? I think people are less keen to share compared to before. Before there were more keen on sharing to everyone I think it's a little bit different nowadays.

52:22True iOS changes have made that tougher and are going to continue to make that tougher. Yeah. It's taken up my variety easier. Yeah, but by variety I mean like me telling you what to do, you know, and so on, you know, through not just world of mouth, but through that. That's a bit more difficult. What is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring growth teams? they hire generalists to do a bit of everything they should focus. You've got a gross leader. He comes, he says Antoine, I'm starting my new role tomorrow, his head of growth. What do you advise them the day before they start? Build the analytical framework before you start spending anything.

52:55What would you most like to change about the world of growth? I would change platforms. I think there is a lot of bullshit on privacy where they use as well sometimes this pretext to just reposition their platform as a brand platform. And because it's brand, just spend whatever you want and you don't track anything and it's better for them. I think an ultimate one. What product does Ravoli not have today that you would love to have? Well, we're working on it. I want mortgage. Do you have student loans? Not yet. That'd be cool. That would be really cool. Yeah, I would be really cool. I agree. It's mortgages and student loans a game changer.

53:31100 % because whether you sell it or not, it's a huge perception shift. It's legit. Are you worried that the banking license will inhibit speed? I mean, we're working with different banking license, you know, across the world we got the the one in Mexico and so on. It's just business as usual. Final one, what company grows strategy if you've been most impressed by outside of Ravoli? You're adding new banking isn't really good. Why? Because they've managed to go very, very, very deep in a huge market. That's what remarkable, what they've done. It's really, really cool. And now they're on Mexico, they are getting some very nice growth.

54:08But what they've done in Brazil is truly impressive. Yeah, it's truly impressive. Incredible. David is amazing. So, Jack, listen Antoine, I would love to. And thank you so much for putting up with my prime questions and you've been amazing. Thank you. Thanks a lot. I so hope you enjoyed it, you can find the full episode on YouTube by searching for 20 V .C. But before we leave you today, many founders I've talked to touch on this idea of if you want to go far, go alone, want to go far, then go together. Canva helps your team go far, together, with their collaboration tools. Your team can work together in real time on the same presentation, doc, whiteboard and more, with name -labeled curses, tag teammates and comments and assign tasks.

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