20Growth: Should Startups Hire Advisors? When is the Right Time? How Much Should They Be Paid? How Should Founders Approach the Hiring Process for Advisors? What Should They Expect From Them? What are the Biggest Mistakes Made and more with Ely Lerner

23:01Performance works pretty similarly in a lot of different places. And then maybe FinTech is a good example where just like the core business models and the infrastructure dynamics are very different in different geographies, right? How do you advise founders? There's a lot of consultants that should advise this now who come on, say I did this, I did this. How can founders determine true attribution of who did what? This is I think a general problem. I'll tell you my approach to it. I don't try to make claims with founders. My model is I meet as many founders as I can and I help them as much as I can for free.

23:32And if at some point we feel like I have capacity and there's a good fit and I'm bringing a lot of value Then we formalize the relationship. It's like a free meme troll in many ways. It is absolutely a free meme trial When does it convert? I think usually with the people that I work with after three or four calls together We are both probably at the place where we're like we either are super jazzed to work together We're gonna do this or this is probably not the right time or not the right fit and we should, you know, we can check back in in six months or something. So is this usually within that amount of time that you kind of get it?

24:04In terms of setting up success, I think failure happens in surprises. What do you want to set up or along before agreeing to a formal commitment? I actually think it's more important in the place where we are not going to work together, but I'll also answer your question. When we are not going to work together, I'm really trying to set you up with like core frameworks and approaches to maximize your chances of success without me there. And if any given time either of us feels like we're not getting enough value out of the Resignship, we just stop. And there's no more equity that you're giving me.

24:33There's no more cash this changing hands like we can just stop whenever we want. There's no commitment on either side. You can just start working together and see how it's going. And if you're getting value, you're getting value, if you're not getting value, you stop. You mentioned that equity cash, I'm sure is part of it too. Like what is the actually that like in the actual salary package? Usually what you would do is you would look at what you would hire a full time C level in that position for. and then you would just scale it back by the fraction. So usually it's like two days a week or three days a week.

25:00Those tend to be the most common versions of that. And so you're really just scaling that back. So you also generally don't put a cliff on the equity because they, you know, sometimes it's a six month engagement or whatever, but you're really just taking what you have and scale it back down to the three or two. So we agree then on this compensation structure. In terms of actually, what are the equity factors that like just to help me again, I know it's detailed and money is always uncomfortable to talk about, but so many, Yeah, that's not that like, what does it actually like just help? The package that I do is let's call it 80 20 cash and equity.

25:31But again, on a month to month basis for this hands on advising, the nice thing about that is it's not a lot of equity upfront. If we end up working together for years and this does happen, so if I mean, Casey has clients, he's done two plus years on. So sometimes you actually find really high value long term engagements. And then that starts adding up a little bit, but early on, you're not giving away that much equity for the value that you're getting, right? that you were actually skewed more towards the cash because it's sort of this like we're exchanging value as we go. Okay, so we agree on this 80 -20 split.

26:01You are advising me, I'm very excited. I'm a hypothetical founder and you're working with me. What can we do, Eli, to set you and us up for success in that first month? Yeah, that's a great question. There's sort of three key things I see as signals of successful relationship. Really, especially when you're early on and trying to figure out strategy, you can ask questions of data, you can ask questions of customers, and you can ship small things quickly to learn. Those are the levers that you need to be able to pull. If you cannot pull all three of those levers, that can be a challenge. There have been times where one of those levers people are struggling with.

26:37I've worked with people where we start working on strategy, and then we realize their teams just can't ship. Data is one where if you just have no data, I probably need to say come back to me when you have instrumentation. I said, I've got a couple of questions. Why did you struggle to ship? That's a great, you want to do that, push for those days, and we could do a whole session on that, but lots of different reasons. But the most common ones are engineering ownership of outcomes, like the strongest lever that you can pull to really drive high functioning engineering teams is engineering ownership of outcomes.

27:08Very frequently you get teams that set up where the engineering team feels like it's owning output and not outcomes. that leads to all kinds of things. So that's one. What's our put not outcomes just so we understand that? Ship the feature. A ticket shows up in my Gira or whatever. It says we got to build X. I build X. I feel like my job is to build the thing you tell me to build. That is I think one of the biggest gaps between really high output engineering teams and engineering teams that struggle to have high output. That's one of them. Two is actually this offense and defense thing. And so I think another very common thing.

27:43I have this framework that I've written about that I've used with almost every company that I advise of thinking about everything you're doing as a company especially things that your products and engineering teams are doing because that's the highest leverage highest opportunity cost as Ether offense or defense and then there's neither which you probably shouldn't be doing you see a lot of companies where a lot of cycles are going to things that are very marginally impactful to the business overall and to maybe preview the framework a little bit Offensive things that are really like targeted at the small number of bets that are targeted at pushing your business to the next level If it's 10 things that's also a problem and they have to be things that are really focused on pushing business in the next level The events as things you have to do there are always things that are not moving business metrics that need to happen Mainly because they are protecting against downside risk The more questions you as then if we have like the offensive is reliability, it's security, it's small upgrades is an offensive a co -pilot strategy for Figma or a new product.

28:44It wants a fantasy and what's in between. Yeah, great. Offend some bets. Absolutely. So in earlier stages of companies, they tend to be growth focused. It's like, what is your probably one primary growth loop? And how do you accelerate that growth loop? Because again, you're looking for offensive bets should be compounding. You want to find things where the more you invest there, you get more and more compounding returns. As opposed to these short term one -off, you could move a business metric one -off, but it doesn't do it in a compounding way. That's not offense. At later stages, things like product market fit expansion absolutely are your offense.

29:15To your point, if you're Figma and you're building your co -pilot, that is probably one of your core 1 -3 key strategic bets for the company. On the defensive side, I think you key thing about performance is a good one. Risk and fraud is another one, technical scaling, all of these things are in the space. A key aspect of defense is that there's almost always a diminishing returns curve. There's a point on that curve where you have reduced the risk of the downside to a significant amount, not to zero. Like if you try to move the risk to zero, you're going to be way down the dimension of returns curve.

29:45It's going to take massive amount of investment and you're still probably not going to get the risk to zero, right? So really it's about finding that diminishing returns point and not investing past that point because every cycle that you're investing past that diminishing returns point, you could be putting into offense, which is people really undervalued the opportunity cost of those cycles, right? Especially because as we said, our fence is compounding. And so things that compound, the time value of money here, right? The sooner you invest in those things, the more that curve is going to bend over time.

30:13And so the opportunity just so I'm saying, so the opportunity cost of getting security and reliability at 95%, instead of 100%, is that actually we could move those engineers to an offensive strategy and have an alternating strategy with those resources, right with compounding returns exactly. So for me as a CEO, do I sit down with the CPO or the product leader and do we literally map out offense and defense and then map our resources according and you have how do we kind of down instill that. Yeah, the other piece of this is actually org. Like the core sort of phases of this generally are go in and look at everything you are planning to do right now like your whole roadmap and essentially tag all the things as offense and defense and figure out and neither because you're always going to have a bunch of things that are like this This is actually not offense, it's not really defense.

31:00Should we really be doing this right now? Maybe we shouldn't, right? And that's gonna help a lot. But once you do that, actually, one of the things can be really high leverage is aligning your org around offensive and defensive bets can also be really powerful. Because then it allows you to have really focused teams on those offensive bets that are not getting distracted by other things. And focus is how you make progress, right? That what does that look like in reality aligning the team around offensive and defensive bets? Yeah. So again, I think the most common version of this is actually you have sometimes this is called like a core experience org that really owns all of the defense.

31:32One of the things that I've seen be really effective is when you have a core experience org that owns every piece of the defense, all of the defenses within that org and no non -defence is in that org, that really lets them prioritize apples to apples defense against defense. You're empowering them in a much stronger way and then you have an org for probably each of your offensive bets. Again, like you should at most have three core offensive bets and an org that is dedicated to each of those things. Do you ever see an offensive bet turn into a defensive and a defensive turn into an offensive?

32:02Yeah, that's a great question. You definitely do. The most common place for that is as you top out a growth loop. You know, the first growth for your company, for your business at some point is going to kind of start topping out that S curve and be more in extraction phase, right? You need to be layering on a second and you should start before it totally starts topping out. Like that will become the offensive bet. Once it starts topping out, you still need to invest in it. Like you still need to be right, like it gets a virality loop. Like you can't just be like, okay, it's that we're starting to get lower returns.

32:27We're just going to ignore it from now on. It starts turning into a defensive thing where you're like, we need to keep maintaining this. But additional resourcing on it is not producing additional returns, right? We're now in this diminishing return. So then that moves like that virality, those things move into the defensive sphere. The opposite one also happens. Actually, an example of the opposite one here that I think I see is trust and safety. Trust and safety is usually defense, right? You're avoiding downside risk. But sometimes it becomes offense. And like Airbnb is a good example, actually.

32:57Where trust and safety becomes offense because a core barrier for Airbnb is this idea that, like, I mean, somebody else's home. Like, that's a core barrier to value delivery for your product. And so that's a place where actually, like, and they invested a huge amount of in trust and safety overall. And the reason for that is they are getting outside returns by doing that. Because every sort of incremental point of trust that people have in that, like, I'm going to go to somebody else's home and it's going to be okay. They're driving sort of like net new demand that didn't exist when they didn't have that trust.

33:28Right? And so that's again, like in some cases, trust and safety is most cases trust and safety defense, but sometimes it can actually be offense. How do I make the defense people not feel like staples and bread and butter that's a bit boring? Talking about this is really important and how you talk about it's really important. But the one thing to remember here is defense is equally important to offense if not more important. The whole point is that these are existential. If you do not do these things, you're not going to have a company to invest in offense. They don't exist. You need to be making sure that everybody understands how important these things are.

33:58You need to be celebrating it in the right way. I think this is another thing that people do wrong is they tend to celebrate offense. They tend to celebrate metrics movers. And that makes people working on defensive things feel crappy because they never get celebrated. But really, you need to build a culture that celebrates finding points of diminishing return and giving back resources. That's so valuable to the business because the opportunity cost of that. And so you should be celebrating this idea that like, hey, we actually think we only need to invest this much in this tech debt and no more.

34:27And we figured out a way to cut that in half. Celebrate that all day. That's a huge impact to your business because of the opportunity cost of the savings that they have found. right? What do you think of the biggest mistakes that founders make when it comes to this mindset of well, founders and probably leaders when it comes to this mindset of offensive and defensive? Yeah, that's a great question. The biggest mistakes I see are not choosing is one, right? On the offensive side of like the whole point of strategy is to say no to most things and focus in on a small number of really high leverage things like you have to make that bet.

34:59And so when you see companies with nine company level OCRs at the top level or whatever, right? It's like they're just trying to do all the things. Like your chances of success is already low. If you do not focus down on one or two core key bets and do that strategy work to figure out where that leverage is, you're not going to succeed. So that's one. It's just having way too many things that you're calling offense. That's one mistake. The other mistake actually is way too much defense. Right? I've seen this in actually like logic books. There's sort of a human fallacy of because X thing is important.

35:25I'm just going to assume anything I do in that direction is important. Right? And they just forget about this concept or they're not thinking about this concept of diminishing returns. That is very, very common because they're like, well, we have to invest in X. It's like, yes, you do, but you're investing way too much and the opportunity of doing that is way too hard. Eli, do you ever have it where? And I'm sorry, my voice is going, I sound like insects. He rolls to yours. Why is that thing that in a podcast? Do you ever have an offensive, which I've actually turns out to be a neither? It could be a new feature, it could be a new product.

35:53Yeah. Doesn't work. What happens then? Absolutely. This is a great example where offense should not be about the solution. Your is the leverage point that you were trying to move. And so that team's goal is figure out how to move that leverage point, figure out what they need to do to move the metrics in that leverage point and be learning as quickly as possible if that is the wrong bet. This is another mistake you see a lot, which is like I did some work to try to determine where that leverage is, I made a bet, and then I didn't question that bet for a long time. That happens all the time. Really, the thing to know is like, you need to be building confidence over time and you need to pull forward the key riskiest assumptions in that bet, right?

36:32I think this is one of the key things, this is again something I have found a little bit all the time, which is how do we identify what the key riskiest assumptions are? And then how do we do things very quickly to essentially learn if we are wrong about one of those key assumptions that would mean that this is not the bet to be taking. The earlier you can do those things the better. When you say they're about kind of really understanding what you're driving towards the terms of the incentive metric or the output, not the key to say to speak, it may be in a conversation I have with Alex Schultz and she in better.

37:00And he said that she was retention is king, retention is king. How do you think about the prioritization of retention today? And I know you have some contrarian reason for this. Yeah. And one contrarian view that you see a lot is people tend to build teams focused on churn. And I think that's a mistake. I don't think you want to focus teams on churn. Retention is actually the thing you want to focus on. And actually, most of that is probably activation. Generally, new years for activation and getting people to the place where they experience the core value of your product and then build a habit around that value is your strongest lever to retention, which is the thing that is going to impact your churn metric.

37:37If you try to focus on churn, these people are already lost. One, they maybe aren't even your ICP in the first place. You shouldn't be focusing your effort of trying to prevent people from churning who are not a good fit for your product, or you've already lost them. Even if you're ICP, right? And you really should be moving your focus back probably to activation to really build strong retention. Retention is the most important thing for sure. When it comes to advisor roles, what are the number one reason that they don't work out? When you get a kind of advisor who has done a bunch of things before, and essentially their advice is, do the things I did because they worked for me.

38:09That happens a lot. What the challenge is, if their situation was meaningfully different from yours, in a way that you may not even totally understand, that you're going to burn a lot of time trying to playbook their work for them that doesn't actually work for the new answer to your business. So we have that as one reason. Any other reason why it doesn't work out as well. On the founder side of that, If the founder is not willing to engage and commit to the relationship, then it doesn't work. At the end of the day, if the founder is not going to engage, not going to show up, this happens sometime, especially with high level advisors.

38:38The founders are too busy. It's just not going to work. You need to get to that working relationship where you're aligned and working together on driving outcomes for your business, and you're doing that in an engaged period. Again, it's retention. It's activation. You've got to get the activation for that thing to go, so that that founder has a habit of working with this advisor consistently and driving outcomes. How many advice and positions do you think you can have? How do you think the back capacity and load on the advisor slide? Right now, I think have like six people that I'm working with at the same time.

39:07I probably can do a couple more than that, but that's about as many as I want to do at any given time. I'm pretty close to the ground though. Like I'm spending an hour with them every week plus additional time where I'm just diving into their stuff. And so I think like, depending on the level of advising you're doing, you could do more. At high level advising, you can take tons of clients. And how do you think about when you've extracted enough funny from the advisor? Again, like life therapists, sometimes you need to change or you don't get to see them anymore. How do you go and the end life of that?

39:34If you're working closely with them, it's going to start getting obvious that you're not getting the right value of that relationship. You're going to know you're going to get to the point in your business. And this does happen, right? Like, advisors will be better at certain types of things than other types of things. And if the things that are important for your business are the things that they are good at, you're going to get lots of value. And as your business progresses, if you move into things that they are not as good at, you're going to pretty quickly know that you're not getting the same level of value from that relationship and you need to start looking for somebody who is really good at the next set of problems that you have.

40:02Sorry, I'm just patting these questions now. And this is one that I got a lot. Should growth teams be independent? Should they sit within the side product teams? How do you advise on that? I think in general, the model now is to have growth be embedded in everything that you're doing. There was a period of time and there's still maybe companies who need to do this. there was a period of time from nobody thinking about growth. It was necessary to pull those things out into their own orgs to help that org make that maturity step into starting to think about growth and starting to bring together those functions.

40:32Honestly, a bunch of those companies have now moved to the third step, which is now integrating that into everything they do. If you are a company that is at the first stage, it may well be the right step for you to go to having a separate growth org, but you should think that your end goal is to integrate growth into everything that you're doing. Eli, what's the best growth decision you've made and what did you learn from it? Honestly, the growth things that drive the most upside are always in activation. Activation is really that place where it makes the difference between you've got a bunch of people who could have value from your product to getting them to the point where they have an engaged habit, long term, getting value from that product.

41:10And again, back to the retention is king, right? like retention stacks your business, retention drives, engagement with strides virality, like it's just all the things. What are the biggest fuckups people make in activation? Is it messaging? Is it not building a habit? Is it shitty? I'm boreding where there's no cost of my education and it's like a blind screen of death. What are the activation fuckup you see the most? I mean, one of them is not understanding your ICP. It's depending on how good your top of funnel is. You were likely acquiring a lot of people who are not a great fit for your product.

41:41And so one of the biggest things I see people do wrong is they see they have a conversion problem. They point a team at conversion and they look at the conversion metric overall. The problem is a bunch of those people are not ICP and they're never going to convert anyway. And so you're spending a lot of time trying to convert a bunch of people and you're going to get marginal improvements to conversion because it's not all the way to activation. Like you can make the button bigger like things will happen. You'll move that metric as opposed to really understanding who your ICP is. Being able to track your ICP in that activation funnel so you know how well the ICP is doing and then finding the highest leverage gap for those core ICP users and targeting that specifically.

42:17I find 70 people actually don't even know their ICP, especially with this rise of horizontal products. They're like, we'll see and you're like, no, we won't. Horizontal products also have an ICP. I love this one. I'm going to call this out even though you didn't ask. I think it's an important one for so many people. Horizontal products have an ICP because the true ICP should be defined in terms of attributes, not personas. It's about attributes. And attributes can be horizontal attributes. They are the attributes that the core group of people across a number of verticals or whatever, having common that make your products such a good fit for them.

42:50Help me out here. What do you mean by that? So if we have a ad table, it can be used by danditists, and it can be used by the ad, we would take from not as a horizontal product. Yeah, so I mean, in the ad table case, it's probably something like they have key problems in their business that require collaboration on sets of data. That is shared by a set of people. There are probably a number of other attributes that are sort of correlated to having that problem, also, which you can then use for tracking and targeting and things like that, but they have that need. Do you know why? That if you actually try and be able to try and run, hey, collaborate more efficiently on data sets, it doesn't resonate with product tools.

43:27No, no, no, no. It doesn't. It would dentists, but you are light, but it's not home. Yeah. You shouldn't try to be everything to everyone. When you're first starting a product, But the generalism, this holds true for horizontal as well, is that you should probably be pretty narrow. It's just in horizontal, your narrow horizontally. Again, it's sort of like there's a core set of people across a number of different functions or business types where they have a really acute problem that is actually structurally similar to that really acute problem in a number of other verticals. And it's just those people that you are focused on and you're focused on that kind of acute problem.

44:00Not every dentist, because every dentist doesn't have that same acute problem that our table needs actually. It's like the data entry ones you have large scale data entry problems or whatever that is. Eli, final one, if we do a quick fire, what's the biggest mistake you've made in product? And how do you change your mindset as a result? I mean, I think like early in my career, I did the thing that I think a lot of people do. Be too focused on solutions, right? Be too focused on the future and not think about the outcome. You see this in a lot of people is like, they think about product as like, we want to build the coolest acts.

44:34And really they need to be thinking about the outcomes they are trying to drive for the customer and for the business and where those things overlap. How did that show itself in real life fee? Some of the sort of like zero to one GM roles that I had pushed that home. When you start out your product career or growth career working on a more mature product, it's easy to not really see the forest for the trees, right? Like you've got a lot going on and there's a lot of things already there. You're sort of a small piece. When you are doing zero to one, you have to see the forest. You now own the forest, right?

45:01You own the full set of outcomes. And so I think that shift maybe helped me make that mental shift. Ela, I want to do a quick fight with you now. So I sure stay when you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Let's try. Yeah. So what growth tactic has died of death in the last five years? Honestly, the concept of growth tactics has died of death, right? There's a whole like this whole idea of growth hacks. And there's a set of growth hacks that everybody can throw on to get quick wins. Growth is not about growth hacks, right? Growth is about finding leverage and exploiting it. Yeah.

45:29What about like growth channels? like push notifications generally stay, irritate the fuck out of people and don't work. Yeah. Because they're oversaturated. I mean, lots of things are oversaturated. Paid is oversaturated in a lot of ways. I would say that these things are not dead. They're dead as broad brush tools. Paid has specific niches where it works well. Push notifications have specific niches where they work well. I think the idea that you can just slap push notifications on something and drive up engagement, that's dead. What one piece of advice would you give to a growth leader before they start a new role?

46:00Does the founding team understand the growth mindset? Right? This is a point about can we instill growth in everything we're doing? They may not have that yet if they're hiring you, but do they get it at the top level where they're going to be able to make that shift? Because if they're not going to be able to make that shift, you're going to be running uphill the whole time you're there. You mentioned that before you joined, you need to have like data to take out and you should know what to make decisions. Is it the founders job to have clean and structured data for incoming data and product people?

46:26I don't think it needs to be clean and structured, but they need to be able to iterate towards the things they need to learn. And so they need to have some data and they need to have the ability to say, hey, we need to be able to measure X because X is really important and we know how to go get that instrumented quickly. By the one, what one company gross strategy have you been most impressed by recently? Oh, this is a hard one, I think. I mean, the obvious one here is ChatGbT, but I feel like that's too easy of it. Like, I think Canva Talk is amazing. Canva's TikTok is incredible. I think Notion.

46:57Yeah, video has been exceptional. I'm an old school marketplace guy. I'm most excited by network effects. And so I really think the place like network effect things tend to be the things that give me most excited. There isn't actually very many people in that middle zone in terms of marketplace network effects today. So in the really early zone, maybe I'll throw out a company that you haven't heard of because it's really, really early. But I know a founder of this company called Cashflow Portal that is essentially building the angel list for real estate investing in a way that it's just never been done before.

47:27I think this is a place where there are potential for network effects where they didn't use to be because of a market shift. I mean, this is, you know, the core thing is like, has something changed about technology or something changed about a market that makes something possible that wasn't possible before? I always ask that. Eli, listen, you put up with my incredibly interesting questions. I love this. Thank you so much for joining me. This has been a lot of fun. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's always fun to chat. I mean, so many amazing takeaways in that episode. I feel there's so much ambiguity and opacity and use the advisor to see your relationship so I hope that helped to answer some of the core questions.

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48:43It means this space is where you map customer journeys with the whole product team, create user behavior it dashboards and map process diagrams and finally it's where you'll run productive team sprints using integrations with tools you already love and use like Giro for developers, Asana for project managers, Figma for designers and so on. We use Mirror and love it to brainstorm future shows, vote on potential guests and leave feedback for the rest of the team in our own time and right now I'm using it to hear from you. Leave your thoughts on the board at mirror .com on Fordslash20VC, that's Miro .com, Fordslash20VC, and 20 growth is obviously focused on building the best growth teams, and great growth teams are obsessed with making data -driven decisions.

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