20VC: Atlassian Co-Founder Scott Farquhar on The Biggest Lessons Scaling Atlassian to $50BN Market Cap; The Four Roles of the CEO, The Funding Round That Net Accel $6BN, The Regrets of Omission and Commission & The Honeymoon Cut Short

23:03Then mobile came around and didn't really display anyone, but Apple suddenly came back into the fore and Microsoft continued to sort of miss that area. And then you saw, I guess, cloud, public cloud, which, you know, changed a lot of enterprise stuff that not much for consumer Don't care where things were running and now we're seeing AI and I think again in each of these changes You see some companies continue to survive some companies rise from the ashes and some companies don't make the transition And so as much as it's the next greatest buzzword out there I do think that there's gonna be a big change in how technology works and Change the landscape honestly I think you'll walk in five years time and the list of top companies may look very different to today So I don't think you can avoid having an AI strategy as a company.

23:43What do you think will separate the existing incumbents who adopt AI at winning versus losing? I just have banny off on the show was going to separate incumbents in terms of their AI strategy that wins and loses in your mind It must be something that you're thinking about definitely Well, I think we're still in phase one of AI where people are adding AI to existing products out there And so like everyone needs to do that, but a lot of people are doing the simple pilot trick which is like let's just summarize and text or give you 10 bullet points and look that is Commodity now like you know whether you're using open hour or any of the other ones.

24:13It's gonna be a commodity I think the real interesting things happen where you've got multiple unique datasets and you can bring them together to do different things For example, I think getting help from someone else like another human is gonna become much more a search problem than it used to be because To solve a someone's problem the data probably exists somewhere in a knowledge base in someone else's support to get whatever to solve your problem. And I think the last thing's in a unique spot to be able to solve those types of workflows. Or if a bug report comes in, you know, from, or even just a log file, like you've got an iPhone application, and it has an error, great, that error.

24:47Let's go back and work out, like, who wrote the code? And why do they write it? Then can we fix that error? Can we fix that error in automatically deploy it to a customer? So once we can tie workflows across large surface area and tie data sets across large surface area, I think that's where magic happens. and it's still like, unclear what the UI looks like for those things. Is it chat interface? Is it traditional interface? Is it voice? Like, is it just boss talking to each other? I don't think we know, but I do think the data and the workflows are gonna be really important. So what extent do you aggressively allocate towards AI today?

25:17Versus appreciating Whistler and Phase One, a lot of the money will be burnt. In productive ways, but still burnt because you need to burn it for progression to happen often. But to what extent do you aggressively allocate? Versus do, but tends toively, in the knowledge that we're still in phase one. We have, you know, multiple thousands of engineers in LAS here, and we have multiple hundreds of engineers working on, you know, AI things at the moment. What we do, if you look at our data, our data is our customers data. Like, we don't control our data. We're not at Bloomberg where it's like we have 50 years worth of trades that we can, you know, put into a large language model.

25:51Like, we have our customers data, and we need to help our customers access at Better. So we don't have to make the huge width and investments of, you know, building our own large language model or building our own thing across companies, across data sets. So what we do need to do is integrate them in interesting new ways. And so I think that's not wasted work because if we can work out what the most useful way of doing that is, I think that's going to be time well spent. And yes, you could wait a guess to all that paradigm has been sorted out. But I think by the time I worked out the exact way to order a car and that it was cars and not limos and stuff like that, it was hard for other people to catch up because if the head advantage and it's not just understanding what works, it's often understanding what doesn't work and you can't really buy your way into knowing what doesn't work.

26:35You can buy your way into what does but you then still have to go through that process of random walks to work at what doesn't work. Is it less than able to be fast enough to move with the speed of AI changing today? Just out of respect to statue public company status size of team, are you able to move fast enough? There's some interesting things that look obviously but it's more of a company is the faster you can move. There's a saying that like if you want to go fast go alone, if you want to go far go together and I think that's the difference between some whole companies. Like if you want to go far, if you want to have a big impact, you know, we have a whole bunch of managers that we can do when we run AI experiments, we can run them with 250 ,000 customers.

27:12Like we want to find how can this work with a you know, a search problem work, we've got customers with 20 years with the data so that we can you know work with them to run experiments on and so yes, we've got more overhead than a normal company, a small company would have. But if you will get, can we move fast? Yes, we have these other advantages that are all asked to move fast, particularly the AI are aware it's about data. If you're AI startup and you don't have access to customer data and customers to test with, that can actually make you move slower. That's one thing. The other thing is how you set up your teams.

27:40Something that's very unique about it, last thing also is the remote work nature of this. My question to you is, from a homework obviously is the mode today for you you might talk about when you say about the team structure being remote. So early on in the pandemic, so I don't know much, I call it 2020 when the world was still trying to work out what this new world would look like. Mike and I had both not been to the office for a month or two because we'd shut our offices down and we knew that Coda was going to go for multiple years and we knew that during that time we wanted to keep hiring people and if we did that, like, we're going to hire people who were going to work from home but have to live within 25 Combers and Office, 50 Combers and Office, 30 Miles of an Office for your American listeners.

28:22We decided, no, we wanted to hire people and given we had offices around the world, we had people in Australia, the UK, the US, Europe, we wanted to basically allow us to continue hiring. And so we made the decision that we would never require someone to come back into an office. But we were very deliberate about saying people that is the path that choosing and we're when a public record, Adidas, Interest, AF in the UK, with that side of London. So we have these people around the world who get to work for us. and we get the best talent as a result. They stay longer, our tradition is lower. 92 % of them say that they think our remote policies help them to do their best work.

28:56And so for me, the opposite is true. Like I think you have to make the argument why being in an office is the right choice rather than saying why it's remote to the right choice. It's so funny, every CEO I speak to you says today, and they say this behind the scenes, we just see that actually in person is so much better. The engagements there, the collaborations there, the cultures there. And there's this real binary flip back. And so it's fascinating to hear yours. Is there a meme that you know now about remote that you wish you'd known when you might made that decision? A couple of things. So one thing we've been working on is we believe you do need to get together as humans to build human contact and human connection.

29:34And we didn't do that during COVID. And so people take the, hey, COVID is what work was and do was terrible. We didn't get to see anyone. You know, that's great. But you can still see people and work remotely where you just don't need to see them every single day. And so we've got some research now, which we've known earlier, that when you get people together, we see our team connectivity boost by 30%. So we ask our staff, how connected do you feel to your team? How connected do you feel to the company? And then we get people together, we call intentional togetherness. And then we ask them, how connected do you feel before and after?

30:03Like, and it was just part of our normal monthly cadence and we cross -reference that with in -office participation. And so the people will intentionally get them together, get a 30 % spike in connectedness to a company and connectedness to team. Now the interesting thing is if you look at it from an atrophy perspective, right? Like how long does it take to return to baseline? It's four to five months actually before that returns to the baseline. And so if you actually say, okay, well if you get to the people like three, four, five, six times a year, you know, not that frequently, you can maintain a very high connectness ratio.

30:32And we found that people at the time of the office every single day don't actually exceed that. So it's not like, oh people with the officer here ever also put below. No, actually, that office being in the office doesn't build intentional togetherness. And so we still get to work out exactly how to maximize that over time and what types of intentional togetherness build the best bonds. But we're running all these experiments now that, of course, if we know them earlier, we would have been much more optimized than we are today. It's a very big decision to go for a remote and to remain for a remote.

30:58When I spoke to Mike, he said, the biggest risk decisions that have been a success have been made by Scott, not by me. When you were flat -editor, I thought it was very humble of him. But when you reflect on the biggest risky decisions that you've made that have worked out, which one is the biggest for you and what did you learn from that? There's a couple of ones that we've made that risky. I think a team anywhere is obviously huge one because it's not always a one -way door but we would burn a whole bunch of, you know, employee trust if we change that now. We've got about half our employees, don't we've near an office.

31:29So it's pretty close to one -way door decision as you can make and we made that relatively quickly and so that was one. Well, another decision we made was to shut down downstried, which was our competitor to Slack. And that was a product that we had been operating the market for multiple years. And if I could share some of the lessons of things that we made mistakes on, we acquired this product, it was growing really fast, it was used by us, it was used by devs, and then it shit, it went through the entire company. And there's a couple of things that I would do have done differently with that.

31:58One is that Stryde was $2 a month per customer, like we just cheap, re -like, enterprise software, $2 a month, that I use her a month, that's incredible. But Slack was free and $10 a month and free is a lot cheaper than $2 a month, even though on average, Slack made more dollars from us because they eventually converted people. And so, you know, the freemium model basically can win over time and you have to get more dollars per customer. So one, I wish we had changed our pricing model. Two, is that when you have a small team of like 10 to 12 people, which is what was when we acquired it, that team runs really, really fast because they don't have overhead and rituals and they all know each other and they all know where to code is.

32:32And when you double that team, you actually don't get any more productivity. Because when you double the team, they need to document things. They now need to work like separate the code out. They need to start micro services and subsystems and stuff like that. So we doubled the team thinking that we would get more productivity. And we ended up basically staying the same. And so what we really needed to do was actually triple work would group all the team in order for us to actually get the productivity that we needed. And lastly is that it was growing fast. Like that product was growing three or four times, you know, year and year, which get if you're going 300%, 400%, you're on year, you're like this is a rocket ship, awesome we're doing great stuff.

33:08Boy we didn't realize before we should be going a thousand percent per year or more because like the market was so big and so we didn't invest enough behind it. So that's the lessons for your listeners. Was it a tough decision? Because there's a lot of sun cost -fathers in that acquisition team. Not only had we acquired it, we'd also then rewritten it from scratch like on our platform and so we're done at full rewrite. You'd end up not being a hard decision because the way I looked at it was could I look my staff in the face and say that the next five years of their life was going to be the biggest impact to humanity working on this product.

33:39I could look at that staff in the eye and say that, hey, working on Hitchatt Stride, which was the rewritten product, is going to have the biggest impact on the world. Actually, I could repurpose you and move you on to other products that have got new ideas that we've got, you know, blue oceans like to borrow a phrase from the book. We know we're not competing head to head against two players out there. And so in the end, like, you know, deciding to shut down that product, better kept on working on it. It was hard because a lot of people would pour their heart and soul into it, sold it to Slack.

34:07But in the end, it was easy because I could look at the staff and say, no, you're going to have a bigger impact on the world doing something else. Scott, do you pay attention to composition? I think you have to pay attention to competition. I think anyone that says they don't is probably a bit silly, does it have to spend their time. But when I look at the ways we win, like, it's often by ignoring the competition and doing something because it was some of the customers. And so what we actually built in that space for product managers is actually a different take on solving that problem. And I think if we just copied the competitors, we wouldn't have any success for, but instead we saw there was a market there and we built something different.

34:41But yeah, we tried to like competitors and see where they're going and how we're growing compared to them. Scott, I'm loving this conversation. I feel a fast friendship and so I'm hesitant to bring this up. But I'm going to anyway, when we look at Giro Z, it's a polarizing product. And I suppose there were a couple of the biggest CPUs in the world and they said the challenging thing is it's trended towards catering to power users while upstarts have appeared that simplify the experience and it makes it much easier for that new onboarding for new customers. How do you feel when you hear that? I want my product to appeal that every single user and the best thing for them to use every single day and one of the benefits of Gira is it can do a lot of things for a lot of people.

35:23The great part is you never grow out of Gira. So no matter what size you're engineering team, whether you've got 20 people or 20 ,000 people working in engineering, like you never grow out of it. So that's the benefit of it. The downside is that complexity can sometimes be overwhelming for some customers. There are two parts of that. One is the product itself. Like we can continually do, and if you look at Gira now versus five years ago, versus five years before that, we continually simplify the product. The other part, unfortunately, is sometimes how it gets set up by people. and sometimes people, you know, complying, hey, Jira's got 14 fields I need to, you know, feel in before I can raise a bug, you know, like, well, we don't shoot before it and feels out of the box.

35:59Someone has configured it that way, you know, because they've done it over time. And so, you know, sometimes you have to tease out, which is the inherent cure of complexity and like, which is the sort of complexity because the Jira admin has decided that you need to feel like 14 fields. But we have a huge investment, I continually simplifying that. But we're never going to be as simple as something that has built for scratch for a five -person team. What we do though is why don't do the things that only we can do, which is how do we scale with you, and we integrate with all the other products that you integrate with, right?

36:27So you can start using a simple product, but then you don't get, like, the amazing workflows that we can provide. You mentioned the scaling with themes there, and you mentioned that the lesson on Stride being actually the Percy pricing. I've had many guests on the show, including Miles Grimshaw from Benchmark from CWP Defense News, who said that per -seat pricing would not exist in a world of AI or would change. Do you agree with that that AI changes the per -seat pricing model? And how do you view the evolution of pricing with the instruction of AI as a foundational pillar? I do think that AI will put pressure on per -seat pricing.

37:02I agree with that premise in general. For example, if you provide help desks software and it's licensed on a per -agent basis, And in many cases these our competitors have these things that are a hundred dollars in agent a month. If your sales force it can be a hundred and forty dollars a salesperson a month. You know these are high per se costs. And in a world of AI well if customers can solve issues themselves because an AI agent solved it for you or you search, solved it for you then you've got a problem because well I can't charge per AI agent that doesn't make any sense. Like one AI agent is innocent AI agent so I can't charge that way.

37:38So So over time we are going to have to work out how we solve for value and previously, you know, per user was a good proxy for the value that you provided. I don't think people have worked out what that works like and I think it will change based on how much you've per seat if you're, you know, $150, $200 a seat like you've got a much bigger pricing model change to worry about than if like the last thing does we charge $10 a seat and then how much is going to be augmented by AI versus replaced by AI. So in some cases it's like yeah, you'll still need half as many seats. Cool, we'll just submit them with AI and charge twice as much per seat and everyone, you know, kind of is getting the same day that it before.

38:11In some cases, it might be OK. We're going to be 99 % of the people and that's not going to make sense. So, in general, the premise is true. I don't think we know what we move to. And I don't think software suddenly will come free because, you know, per user pricing just doesn't work. Can I take a different tact? But I do want to cover one more thing before we move into a quick fire. It's more personal, but obviously with the immense success of that Lassian finances change. I always ask this one, but I think it's really important. How do you think about your relationship to money to say? I think about this all right because I've got young children.

38:39Yeah. And I remember actually once Peter Fenton used the words about post -economic, what does that mean, right? And I thought about that a lot, and I wouldn't use those words, but there's a relationship between time and money, I think, that you have throughout your life. And I know when I was a teenager and three university, I had a lot more time than I had money. But with most things in life, you can trade time and money. Like, if you want to get great concert tickets and you don't have money, you stand in line out the front, stay over the line to get the concert tickets. So I think that trade -off actually exists or what in life.

39:10And it doesn't change, you know, if you've got a lot of money, you're just the trade -off, the slider moves a lot more, and if you have a lot of time, it goes the other way. And I've wasn't born from the family that had a lot of money. And so for me, moving the slider of money in time has actually been a bit of a struggle, because like I still feel like, hey, well, why would I, good example, when you take a rental car? Like, you can sell it up before you go back to the rental agency, you can get them to fill it up for you, right? And if they fill it up, they charge a premium on the fuel that you put back in there.

39:37But it probably saves you 20 minutes of running around trying to find the fuel station or whatever and in the end of the day. It might only cost you $5 more to get them to fill it up. And so things like that I've really struggled to move that or if you still, if you got better. I'm getting better. Like I think that if you're not achieved a lot in ice and you have more money than getting the time back to be able to devote it to other things is useful. And I pick with kids, it's like, hey, if I spend money, I can spend more time with my kids. that's a great trade -off. Is it difficult with George Brown?

40:03I have David Vellas on the show from New Bank, and he said his number one concern right now is bringing children up in the world of huge wealth and retaining humility and ambition and hunger. I think it is a very difficult thing to do. I don't think I've cracked the code on that. Even if we try and isolate our children from that, I borrow an expensive house in Sydney and to my kids' friends at school, talk to them about it and how much it costs. And I feel like no matter how much you try and isolate your kids from that, it can be something that you just don't have the opportunity to do that. And so for me, it's just trying to teach kids the value of money and also just being a good human being, treating people well.

40:38So I definitely haven't cracked that and my kids are still young, so I don't know if I'll have done a good job for another decade or so. Final one I promise, and then we do a great fight. You have an amazing relationship with your wife through an incredible journey with it last year. What's the secret of your happy marriage? One is, I think putting your partner on a pedestal is really important to do that. And it's a great book actually, it talks to this thing. It's the one thing I can't remember Mark is bucking him, but I learned a research that shows that couples that put each other on a pedestal actually do better than couples that are realistic about the opposing person.

41:10And I don't know, I think I've always put my wife Kim on a pedestal. She's the most amazing person on every front, like whether it's work or friends or family or our new queer family. And so I think that's one part, too, is that she's best friend by a long way and we've had a shared journey. And then lastly, I've learned how to say sorry quickly when I screw something up and I feel like that's something She taught me she taught me to just say you know, I do something bad or whatever and she just tell me say sorry And for about five years, I like dig my heels in and be like no, no, I would I do that and then I think for the last We saw about 20 years a month ago.

41:43So for the last 15 years I think I've learned that when you're wrong just say sorry. I asked another very famous Jack billion and the other day with the C -Grenny, you say, compromise and patience. You must compromise and you must be patient. I was like, okay, good stuff. I'm glad this is one way. I want to be even do a quick fire. So I say, sure, stay with you, give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Let's do it. What's your vision for the future of education, Mike, that I had to ask this one? Could I do a non -rappin fire answer? Because I feel I just want one. 100%. About a decade and a half ago, where you were doing some experiments.

42:18So two things came together. One is I read a book called Leaving Microsoft to Change the World, which is sort of a guy named John Wood, started a foundation, not profite called Remdery, and then their motto is, well, change starts with educated children. So I read this book and I was inspired by it, but wasn't sure how to impact it in any way. And then the second one was that we would experiment and was changing our pricing model, how to last year. Because, you know, the most software cost six figures at the time, like the cheapest version of last year was $1 ,200. And we thought, no, it should be free or should be cheap or should be, you know, like how do we change that?

42:47And so we ran an experiment like in this sort of true lean startup way, we ran an experiment to work out what a new pricing model should be. So we said let's make our software $5 for five users for five days only. And we ran basically a one week campaign to just see, well, is there a desire for a five user version of our software? And by the way, all the money goes to charity. And so we as a company then had bets like how much we're going to raise in five days? Is it gonna be $3 ,000, $5 ,000? The highest bet we had was $20 ,000. So at the end of five days, in five dollar increments, we raised just over $100 ,000 for charity.

43:26Which is crazy when you think about like 20 ,000 transactions, like, 4 ,000 a day. I think it's like, if I could do the math, it's about one every 20 seconds, over, have ridged over that period of time. So totally crazy. And then I called up John Ward after reading this book and said, Hey, we've got this big check, like one of those ones you see on TV for $100 ,000 to your charity. And he's like, how you from what country? Like, I never heard of you. So if we'd end it, it's a Sydney, and we gave him a big check for $100 ,000, and that started a relationship with Remda Reed. And that kind of has been multi -million dollars over time.

44:00And of course, all the philanthropy stuff ended up inspiring me to start Pledge 1%. A foundation that encourages startups and companies to give 1 % of equity, product, profit and employee time to non -profits and that's inspired about 18 ,000 companies to play it as well. So I guess there's a long answer for that why I think that a few things can be together to start a film's rubbish journey. Listen, I had Cliff from Canva on the show and he spoke about giving away most of his wealth and his adventure in Vesterain actually asked why. It seemed we had some differences of opinion but I appreciate his film'sropic mind.

44:34Tell me Scott what have you changed your mind on in the last year. To think about a really good answer for what I changed my mind on in the last year, I think I take a while to make up my mind, so I don't run to snap judgment something so it takes me a long time because it's certain about things. So that's either a blessing or a curse, but I don't really change my mind very often. What have you been wrong on in the last year? I thought public money hit way worse than that have been. It's been a lot more resilient. We're actually in a better place. For me, there's going to be what it's going to be.

45:02I don't make bets about that or have opinions. And we thought that it would go down roughly this and we were roughly right in terms of where we made our investment. So the public market stuff is not a big thing, but on the B -right part, I'm trying to get better at basically saying, well, someone else might be right and we'll find out in the future and sort of disagree and commit a lot more than I used to be. I think that was an area where I would dig my heels in a lot and try and prove that I was right. But these days I'm like, actually, more often than not the other person is right, so I'm trying to look at all of that.

45:31Scott, with respect, you're a pretty tall guy. How do you retain serenity when things are really going to shit? For me daily exercise and I try and be in bed for eight hours a night. They make a big difference to me. I wasn't always like that but I have been the last decade or so. You can have dinner with anyone that are alive. You do have dinner with them why them? I've got three boys and if I could have dinner with them when they're six years old again, individually or together. like that would be like who I'd love to you know how to do knowledge. What is being a great father been to you? I want to have a great relationship with my kids and I want them to speak daily.

46:11Oh so I speak weekly with my kids in 20 years time and so for me I can't make great life choices, I'll be proud of their life choices and I want them to want to spend time with me in a decade or two. Is there a trade -off between being the best in the world something and being a great father? Respectfully, it travels the intense demands on the quarterly reporting, the pressure that comes from being a public CEO and being there for bad time and stories. I think everyone has the same 168 hours in a week and there will be people out there who are way better, fathers than I am because they stand more time and that is their last calling.

46:43So for me it's making all the trade -offs between all the different things I have of being fit and my responsibility is to family, responsibilities to work and so if I devoted 100 % of my time to all the things I chose not to have a family I would probably be better at work than I am today, NFL Jones, and I said, to do work, I'd be a better father. But I was trying to make the balance between all the different things that I have. Scott, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done to you? I think belief in me is the nicest thing. So whether that is Mike who believed in me to start at last and invite me, like, you know, kind of to start a company with him or our first chairperson who, you know, was a very, very successful business person.

47:22But the times I think that I feel the biggest kind that's where people believe in your ability or believe in the potential. I spoke to Mike before the show. It was just clear that the true dApps and the bunny love you have for each other in terms of friendship. What do you think makes you such great co -founders and partners? I think co -found relationships, much like a marriage, it's a very intense relationship and I think both Mike and I, we're very distant people in terms of how we see the world. Michael has a hundred ideas in a day and be comfortable if he goes to bed and one of them survives the day to the next one and I probably much more methodical than thought for about how we do it and I think the success has been that we both complement each other incredibly well and I think we both know that it will ask him wouldn't be the success it is today if it wasn't for the two of us.

48:09When we look forward to the next 10 years final one, if everything goes to plan, where are we then? 2033, we're chatting, Byron Bay, I knew wherever we want to be. Where are we that got? I am just super excited about the opportunities that we can do for helping teams work together. And so, some parts of AI, some parts just doing more for our customers across the board. And so, if I think about how much busy work happens every single day across an organization, how much content you need to do, or how much work there is about work. It's like, oh, what I need to get done today, what's the best thing I should do next?

48:42There is so much of that that happens. There are so many dysfunctional teams where if we all had better emotional intelligence and we could work together, better, we would have ours work more. There's so many people being dragged into the workplace and commuting into our Z -TWA to turn up to a desk and sit on a Zoom call. So much we can do to improve how work happens for people, for teams, for organizations, and we're just getting started really in doing that. And so some of that would be AI, some of that would be just training people, some of the helping people have higher emotional intelligence.

49:13and so there's so much stuff we can do there. And we'll never be done. We'll do it, but hopefully in another five years, 10 years, 20 years time, we'll be better than we are today. Scott, as you heard before, I did my work, but I so enjoyed this. This was, it's shown like this where you actually have real conversations. The script is kind of left aside. It just reminds me why I'm so lucky to do what I do. So thank you so much for being so great and I've loved doing this. I appreciate it, Harry. Thanks for the time. I mean, that really was just such a joy for me. Do you have to remember these are my heroes as well when I grew up I looked at it last in as this incredible beacon of innovation and so for me to have the chance to interview Scott's day was just such an incredible moment.

49:52Huge thanks to Scott for being so amazing. If you want to see more from us you can on YouTube by searching for 20 V .C. but before we leave each day did you know that every 20 V .C. episode you listen to is recorded with Riverside. Riverside is insanely good like I would pay a thousand dollars per month for Riverside. It's that good. Why? Well first off, EZ. Your guests do not need an account, one click in their in the recording room with you. It is fantastic, especially for high profile guests. Second, they record your video and audio track separately and in the background, so they're not only higher quality, but the guest does not need to record their end and then send after which is a total nightmare.

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