20VC: Carvana: The Most Wild Story in Public Markets: From $60BN to $400M and Back to $40BN | The Biggest Opportunities, Mistakes and Challenges Ahead for One of the Public Market's Only 100x Investments

26:38I just think that being able to paint pictures of the future is absolutely requisite and it's something that you should work really hard on. What's a good picture of the future and what's a bad picture of the future? I hate Zoom. It's like, may everyone happy? Who's going to be like, no, I disagree. I want sadness and still to plan everyone. It's completely ridiculous. Like, you know, VED20VC is very explicit. We are not for beginners. If you don't get what we talk about, no worries. This is not the show for you. We are full or against a brand, and that is great. Nike and Adidas, McDonald's and Burger King.

27:13What is good, not good? Exactly. As you said, be intellectually honest. Be transparent about what you are and what you're not. So for Corvana, we have always said that we intend to build both the largest and the most profitable automotive retailer ever built. And we're unapologetic about the fact that we are building a highly profitable business. And we're going to do that by offering the best experience, the broadest selection, and the best value for consumers in a way that allows us to capture market share that no one's ever captured before. What is the best experience, uh, margin most? Well, it certainly sub -scale trying to move cars across the country.

27:53There is so much underutilization of assets. These are big nine car haulers going down the freeway. And if they've got three cars on them, it's not a very good use of expenses. Um, but you have to be willing to move those trucks and get cars to customers. Because if you say I'm going to wait until the nine car hauler is full, then I can only tell you I will get you your car somewhere between three and 11 days from now, which is not a good customer offering, and it's going to take a long time, which is low converting. And so you have to be sort of willing to absorb some of that underutilization for a period of time, but then once you get to the point where you're actually sort of fulfillment constrained, instead of demand constrained, there's so much incredible optimization work to be done, where we get, we've done so much software building around intelligent labor utilization and logistics network and fulfillment utilization to make the unit economics really, really sing.

28:50And that takes time. Do you know the lesson that I have from interviewing 30, 40 of the best CPO in the world? Lay it down. The lesson is the best, or not product people weirdly, or they don't sound like product people. They sound like intense business leaders who understand unit economics and product better than anyone else. And the good just get product and the bad don't get either. Yeah. The combination of getting business and unity, con and product is what makes the best. Do you agree or is that a stilltid view of what a great CPO is? I completely agree. You have to be unapologetic about the fact that you're building a business.

29:31We say we do not win by shipping features, we win by moving metrics. And ultimately, while there are so many input metrics, and you should have a very clearly defined unit economics driven hypothesis for why we're taking on any given initiative, and you should have leading indicators that you're measuring from minute zero of launching a new initiative, and looking for evidence that your hypothesis is valid or invalid. Ultimately, if it doesn't drop to the bottom line, you have not contributed to anything. It has to ultimately show up inside of the business, and we are unapologetic about that. It is everyone's responsibility to care about that.

30:08That's product, engineering, analytics, design, operations. It is everyone's responsibility to care about the initiatives that we've taken on and what we're prioritizing and seeing that all the way through to economic impact for the business. And so, yes, I think it's absolutely the case that everyone should be rigorous there. I mean, I'll ask you a rude question. Do it. Is it difficult being a CPO in a company slash business where the product is almost not the software product? And what I mean by that is the delivery time is really important, letting me know where it is and when it's coming, and then ultimately, it's on my drive and it's as I thought I would.

30:47That is really the product. The pixels that I discover it with, yes, important, but nowhere near as important as the other two. Is that difficult being CPO in a world of that? Not at all because the technology is what unlocks all of those capabilities. If you really want to get a car a thousand miles as fast as possible and profitably, there is so much technology to be built to do that. You have to have all of these vertically integrated systems. You cannot have humans in the loop for every single decision. And so our articulation of that, when I would hire engineers early on, and there was all this thing about there are certain companies in Silicon Valley that are engineering led.

31:29And I would say, we are not engineering led. We are customer led. And you need to be completely on board with the fact that we're trying to unlock more and more value for customers by doing so. We're going to win a very big game by a very large margin is everyone not customer led. I think that this notion of being engineering led can sometimes be trying to romanticize and give too much control or a perception of control of it's really all about the technology. If you build it, they will come and that is not singularly true. I think you need to have a go -to -market muscle and you need to have tight feedback loops and analytical rigor and obsession and there are emotional aspects to using any product that really matter in psychographics and all of these things.

32:17I think you do have to actually be customer obsessed and I don't think that every organization evangelizes it in the same way. You mentioned tight -feed bot loops there. Every product team has product reviews, but they sum a dumbbell in me and sum a dumbbell in me terribly. What have been your biggest lessons in how to do effective product reviews? You can hide from the metrics. Several years ago, we took on an operating cadence where there is at least one executive team member, sometimes more than one that meets with every single team in the company every single week. And we do a review of what did you say you were going to do last week, what actually got done, and what are you going to do this week?

32:56And then how are we seeing that in the results? You have to have a hypothesis for why we're taking anything on, and those hypotheses have leading indicators of whether they're true or not. Every single week. What do you do when there is a team that consistently has a chasm between what they said they were going to do and what they do? reconfigure the team. We like to have single threaded leaders that are highly accountable for those initiatives and the prioritization and execution of those initiatives. And so we look to that leader and really try to understand their diagnosis for why it's working or why it would not be working, but it is that leader's responsibility to ensure that it is or to change course.

33:35What extent do you listen to team members on product reviews? And what I mean by that is, I think we should do this. That's great, Dan, back in your box. Yeah, we love the ideation coming from everywhere. We have a number of product managers in our organization that were customer advocates. They were on the phones listening to customers and dealing with customers all day every day. We have ones that were loan underwriters. We have ones that did home delivery of vehicles. And they know how the experience actually works and where the tooling has been falling down and where the frictions are and how to make those gains.

34:08And so we love that coming up from the bottom, but we have a very high bar for rigor. You better have a hypothesis for why this is going to matter. And a good framework for that is the magnitude of impact times the frequency of occurrence. You can say that something is a horrendous experience. But if it happens one in every 50 ,000 deliveries, that's not a very good thing to bring to the table. Even something with medium pain that happens one in every 50 deliveries is much more important for us to pay attention to. And you can distill that into a unit economic impact. You can say, what is this doing to our cost per unit or what is this doing to our profit per unit?

34:46And we ask everyone to collapse their ideas into that unit economic framework so that they can be compared apples to apples. Gustav from Spotify, who I think is one of the best CEOs in the world, he always says, talk is cheap, so we should do more of it. And now I fundamentally disagree with this. I think speed of execution is everything. And actually, I think dictatorial product leaders generally work best. It's like, you've got to appease people and make them feel heard, but ultimately, we're going to go. So what extent is he right versus I right? Clarity of thought and clearly articulated strategy is very important.

35:21And so whether that's an Amazon 7 -pager or, you know, what do you do? Do you do a 7 -pager? Do you do slide decks? We do like written communication. Written communication is hard to hide. You have to distill your perspective into clearly articulated pros, and you can't hide. And so, well, that's not what I meant. It's like, well, you wrote it down, as opposed to if you just presented in slides. So, we really like written communication for PRDs and proposals of major initiatives in the business. I really agree with you on the importance of writing. What do you think are the most non -obvious other skills that product people or the best product people have?

35:59You mentioned their writing, we mentioned business mindedness. Any others way you're like, when I look at my team, the best have this less obvious skill. High accountability is the number one thing you have to look for where people take it personally when things aren't succeeding. And it's just that willingness to go the extra mile, to go and watch the customer session replays and to take notes and to do the product tear downs of competitive products and compare and contrast to sit and read every word of copy on the page out loud, feel embarrassed when it's not intuitive. It's that taking it personally that you want to get it right is the number one thing that we look for, is just that willingness to want to go the extra mile and to want to sweat the details.

36:46A lot of founders worry about take home assignments when they have someone amazing, an incredible talent coming from a top company and they're like, I don't want to give down a take home assignment. He's so, so kind of important. How do you advise founders on take home assignments, how to do them right in product and what not to do? Well, let's go the other way first and say the single best way to hire someone into an organization is for them to reach out to you with a vision for how your organization gets better and they're so passionate about it and they already have ideas. When ever anyone asks me, could you connect me into any companies?

37:21When does that happen, Dom? It is rare, but it happens. There are those people who, at least when they say, can you connect me into company X? Well, I say, why do you like that company? And it can't be like, oh, I heard they're doing well or I see their stuff. I hope they just raised me around. It needs to be, I love the approach they're taking and I want to be a part of doing this. And even if they don't have that, I will encourage them, you need to go and create that for yourself. You need to write down why you believe in this business. And proactively, I mean, there is nothing more magical than being a founder and having someone tell you, I love what you're doing and I want to be a part of it.

38:01It's the most intoxicating feeling because you're so self -conscious, you have so much pressure on yourself and have someone that sees it and gets it and wants to be a part of it. Is it just an intoxicating aroma for a founder to feel. So let's start with that, that you want people when they're applying to be very specific about why they're applying. They're not just lobbing in a resume and hoping that you say yes. So that's one thing. Two, when it comes to, can you have them do take home assignments absolutely? I think you need to. This was something I learned very early in my career when we were selling enterprise software, is I had a sales leader say, how can you hire a rep without making them dance.

38:38That was really stuck with me is how can you ever possibly hire someone who you're going to trust to speak to your customers without hearing them pitch a product? And you have to hear that. And I think in product, how can I trust someone's judgment without asking them to first put their thoughts in writing and break down a problem and hear how they would approach it? How do you think about the challenge of whether to get them to work on Covana where you have a huge amount of knowledge, asymmetric information, And you'll probably just think that everything's not great because it's not a level that you are having spent years there versus a neutral product where you start on a level playing field.

39:13It is an asymmetric advantage, but we always have them do Carvana problems. And we'll try and make it something that is relevant to us. So we'll stand up, you know, a dummy SQL database and say, query this and tell us what you would do in this strategy to increase a touch of warranty products on a sale or, you know, what's that going to do to the unit economics of the transaction? And we'll give them a bunch of historical data and it'll be non -intuitive so that you have to sort of fair it out, those non -intuitive realities that are buried inside of the data and then come to a conclusion on what you would change in the interface to make it better.

39:48And you're right that it's an asymmetric advantage that we understand it quite well, but you get to see level of effort and critical thought and the versatility there. And so we aren't hesitant. We also don't hire super, super senior people. we like to grow our talent from within. And so I would not have the issue of, boy, this person's such a big deal. I can't possibly ask them to do homework. We're the insider of a 10X engineer. Hi, the 10X engineer overpay them. There's no question that there are individuals in almost any functional organization that are many fold more effective than others.

40:22And I think that that often has more to do with work ethic, accountability, pride those sorts of attributes than just raw intellect. I should be honest, we are not building AGI here. You can have singular insights that unlock. But I do believe there are people who are better at turning big problems into small problems and executing with urgency and accountability and that can really move mountains as individuals. You're not building AGI, you are delivering cars. But that is very important and you have to, I'm sure, come up with ways to tell Ernie about ways that you are leveraging AI to make your margins better, your product better, because you're a public company.

41:08And every public company needs an AI story. Do you agree with that that every public company needs an AI story? And as a CPO today, how are you thinking, how can I leverage AI to get as much juice out of this as possible? 100 % and we've been all in on AI for years. So zoom out for a second and say that a computer can only give an answer to a customer or take an action for a customer if the computer has access to that information. And in automotive retail, there are so many human decisions. You're negotiating the sticker price of the car, you're negotiating the finance rate, you're negotiating the trade in, you're negotiating all of these individual things.

41:48Whereas in our world, all of these systems are deterministic and algorithmic and have been built that way from day zero. And so we can have an LLM tell you, Harry, given your credit score and the vign of the vehicle that you entered, you have $3 ,000 of positive equity on that car applied to your financing. That will unlock a 7 .4 % rate. And this Tesla Model Y will now be $612 a month with $1 ,000 down. That information is knowable in our world and it is not knowable in the sort of physical dealership world and the vast majority of cases. And so we lean very hard into AI because we think we're structurally advantaged to leverage it and offer increasingly frictionless experiences to our customers.

42:33In the UK, we call it throwing in and grenade, yeah. I told you this Friday, so I'm just going to have a bunch of old stuff. I often think it was where I say if we're in the same city, it would be buddies. Yeah, yeah. And then you meet other people in your life, we wouldn't be. But my little grenade throw in is BYD is crushing in London. They are everywhere. Now I'm a believer in Adam Smith's invisible hand, minimal market intervention. And then I saw the other day how the unity economics of these Chinese cars are being subsidized so heavily. It is not a fair game when the Chinese government pays for 30 -40 % of the cost.

43:18To what extent is Chinese cars a net negative for your business? And do you worry? On one hand, for any new brand to want to enter the United States, think about what it takes to get cars in the hands of customers. How much capital and how much time to get land and get zoned and get staffed and start to fulfill and get those cars in the hands of consumers. Would you sell Chinese cars? I think that that's a complex sort of geopolitical question of what are the right moves for the government to make in terms of allowing US automotive manufacturers to thrive and grow and protect them from this very subsidized unit economic model that could come in.

44:02I'm being on payahdan. Do you think Carvana should sell Chinese cars? I think that we should be selling other people's cars and we want to be Amazon for cars. We want to be able to distribute the cars that consumers want. Wondafely ambiguous. That was beautifully done by the way. I don't think Americans want Chinese cars. You guys are so, the sentiment against China from you is very different in the UK. What do we not see about Carvana that we should see? And what does the world not understand about this business that you're like, that's the really special thing? I think the amount of vertical integration that we've taken on is pretty staggering.

44:42It's hard to see from the outside. There's I think early on a bit of a misconception of, oh yeah, I can buy a car online. I go to Google, I search, and I see cars. That's a listing site. you're going to go to a dealership and transact that car. It's not an e -commerce model for automotive. When you look at the number of companies that we've had to build, we are a full FinTech. We're a lender. We have one of the largest automotive -reconditioning companies. What do you think you've vertically integrated that you shouldn't have done? I still look at Shopify and Stripe. And Shopify, I mean, in Stripe's partnership is incredible, but why Shopify is never vertically claims credit strike, I have no idea.

45:24Yeah. We pulled back on a couple of the bets, even bets that I mentioned today. And so we have examples where we said, hey, this is such a logical adjacency. Let's take it on and we pulled it back. Why did you put it back out of interest? That was during the 99 % drawdown of the stock where we needed to say, hey, it's time to focus on the core. Make sure that the Uniteconomic model is crystal clear to the world and get on better footing. and so that was part of the refocusing. Dan, the market cap stays 50 billion. The market cap was 5 billion? We IPO'd at about two. We peaked at about 60 billion.

46:04We dropped back down to 500 million, and we're back to 50 billion for the second time now. You dropped down to 500 million. The fun thing about dropping by 99 % is that the difference between a 98 % drop and a 99 % drop is another 50 % drop. It was a harrowing ride for a minute. I didn't know you dropped to 500 million. Yeah. Oh my God. So tell me, as a leader, what do you say to your team when it's 500 million? With the benefit of hindsight, it was so healthy for us to go through that together, because what you say to your team is, here's what the rest of the world misunderstands about the truth.

46:45What you're reading in the Wall Street Journal or what you're reading in any of these publications, let's be really clear about what that version of the truth is and then let's articulate to you our version of the truth. And then we're going to check back in in 30 days and we're going to tell you which one is more true. And so in 30 days, did we do exactly what we said we were going to do and as everything checked out that we told you before, yes, it has. All right, let's roll that forward another 30 days. And we We were just doing an enormous amount of communication through that about here's exactly where we're going.

47:17Here's how to express that in unit economic terms. Always our obsession. This is what we're going to do in terms of cost per unit. This is what we're going to do in terms of gross profit per unit. And this is how we're going to see through this storm and just share those results again and again and again. There are the people that opted out immediately at the beginning of that drop and said, like, this isn't for me. This thing's never going to make it. And I always knew it was never going to make it. There's sort of that crew and good riddance. Please move along. There's something that just couldn't handle the swings and that's totally understandable But those who chose to stay it has been so galvanizing as an organization to go through that process together and to rebuild that trust and say wow you were right We were misunderstood from the outside and we did do exactly what we were said We were gonna do so now what are we gonna do next and everybody's charged up and ready to run at that hill with the benefit of and having survived, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been as an organization and really poised for an exciting future.

48:16500 million. It's quite a drop. Oh, I'm just, I remember someone, we mentioned our friend earlier, showing it to me at like three or four, I think it was. Seems rich, it could go low. I'm like, oh, that's like a, oh. Just a nice hundred bagger. And this is what's amazing. that's a hundred -barget in public markets. Yeah. It's been an incredible journey. Wonderful people who really care. We're an organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. And there's a little chip on our shoulder that we're not, you know, Silicon Valley and whatever. But the truth of the matter is, I would pit our team against any team in the world.

48:57Why is being in Arizona helped you over being in Silicon Valley? You have to opt into the mission. You know, we kept a very high standard around these things like grit and accountability and problem solving and biased action and those things, once we sort of found the right people, they were fully bought in because if you have those characteristics, you can be employed elsewhere. You could choose to go many different places, but you're in Phoenix and you have chosen to be with Carvana and we've really built a very long 10 -year group, 90 % of our senior leadership has been with Kovanna since before 2019.

49:36So well before the drop. Our executive team has been together for 10 years. You know, we've built a real cohesion. I'm still getting over this 100 -barger. Now it's going to keep me up at night. You've ruined my day. Listen, I want to do a quick fire on, dude. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. So that's not okay. What's the most common reason early companies do not gap product market fit. I think that founders are often in such a hurry to found something that they aren't rational enough about what they pick to go and found. I think there's a lot of companies out there that are features and not products.

50:11So you better have a very clear vision for how that feature is a wedge to something much, much bigger or something indispensable for an organization, not like a, well, we're just going to build it and we'll wait and see. And so I really am obsessive about this notion of how does your moat get deeper and wider as you execute? And I think a lot of founders lack that vision. What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you got into product? That it's at least 50 % if not more about people and not just making product decisions. You know, fortunately I love people. I'm a pro social guy. I love my teams.

50:46But really, the leverage is in getting lots of people to move with urgency and to care and to understand the mission and the vision and to attack it. And that's a lot of what it's about. It's not just making product decisions and saying, let's go do this. You've really got to get a lot of people to run hard along with you. Well, it's the most recent wow moment you've had with a consumer product. And why that one? I have to give you two. One isn't crazy recent, but it's fun was the first time that my wife tried Google Maps inside of virtual reality and she was like tromping around our living room like Godzilla and like looking in our apartment window and and just like experiencing this immersive experience and I'm still a big believer in what's going on in the metaverse and and I'm very excited by where that all can go.

51:39I think a second one literally two days ago I got a Rivian and I'm obsessed with it. There's just so much craft in every detail of that car. Like the headrests have like a plaid inlay in the middle of them and when you're setting the flow of the direction of the air vents it's this beautiful animation and you can save it as your default so that when I get in the car the air vents point in a specific direction and my wife gets in the car they point in a different direction and there's just a lot of craft in that car. I love it. It's beautiful. God yeah, we really do live in hard times. Don't we?

52:13When I get in the car, the air in this car, God, God, life is tough. Hey, we're not doing the events left versus right. Jesus. I would not do your other part in history to live in. This is I'm happy to be here. Do you know what I find funny and it's going to ruin the whole interview? I don't even have a license.

52:35I've never driven a car. I don't get it. You don't have a license to that's wild. Well, I hope my daughters never have to drive. I think they'll be full self -driving. Question for you. Jaguar rebrand, terrible decision that will hurt the company, or weirdly genius move to get attention. I'm not a fan of the rebrand, if I'm honest. I think that Jaguar already means something. And when you built brand equity for so long and their brand has stood for quality and innovation and luxury and all these really great things. I think you could have reinvented product and really let the product speak and tell the story of why the product is different and better as opposed to trying to reinvent the brand, which I think already had plenty of value.

53:24I don't necessarily see it on the Heritage Adam and I understand they want to appeal to a new demographic, a specific Asian. for the Heritage Adam and Israel Asia loves. Yeah. What one piece of advice would you give to a product leader starting a new role today? Ultimately, you do need to understand the whole system that you're stepping into. And so I think product is really about having a system's mindset where I've mentioned this a little bit where you have to understand all of the inputs and all of the outputs and where the leverage is. And so my number one piece of product advice is always if you can only change one thing and everything else has to stay constant.

54:01What is the one thing you're going to change? Imagine that future where that one change is as perfect as you can make it. How does that impact the business, you know, KPIs that you're responsible for? And that's what I always tell product leaders. What other function has the most tension with product? We've really fought this hard. Corana is such an operationally intensive business, But we have to be hand in glove between technology and operations. And I think sometimes operations has a reputation for wanting a bandaid for a pain that exists today. And sometimes product thinks they're smart and knows more.

54:38And don't worry, we'll handle it. But you really actually need product to live in the weeds with operations and intimately understand the challenges and the experiences and the frictions and the deficiencies. And so you want those folks to be so close together and embedded. So I think product and operations can sometimes be intention, but we work really hard to try and slam them together and make them best friends. What about the way that we build product today will be completely different in 10 years time? The siloization of functional orgs are going away. AI is reimagining what it means to write code or to do analytics and even to do design.

55:19The most versatile problem solvers and thinkers are just going to be able to cover more ground than they're able to today. Will Carvana have more or less people in 10 years' time? It's an interesting question because there are aspects of our business that are very people -centric, and I think we will want them to be people -centric forever. The person who shows up on your driveway and delivers your car, even if that car were a self -driving car, I think, you know, there's still that customer service and the face of our brand that's going to be really important and that scales slightly sublinearily in terms of labor optimization, but is going to need to scale with unit sales.

55:56On the other hand, we're very transparent that I do not think that to sell twice as many cars, we need twice as many product managers or twice as many software developers, we should be expecting incredible leverage over our fixed expense base in those areas and and expecting those people to cover more ground over time. How will AI and patch your customer service, specifically support teams? We believe that people don't want loans and they don't want trade -in values and they don't want loan underwriting, they want their car. They came to get a car. And we need to remove as much friction as humanly possible while also giving the customer confidence along the way that they're making a good decision.

56:35And so what we want is to automate everything and make everything self -service and intuitive. And if we can hit an API to get data on you to help our underwriting decision, instead of you having to provide a document to us, we're gonna do that. But if at any moment you're not feeling confident or you're nervous, we want you to be able to pick up the phone and talk to someone who's knowledgeable and confident and competent and give you that. Well, why can I say, Tavana, support today, are we hiring more support people? Or do we replace with AI? It's both what we want is for we want to have the best people.

57:09I think we want to retain them for longer than you would see from a typical customer service agent because they're exceptional. And I think what you end up doing when you have a business as complex as ours is you need to specialize. You have people that specialize in the early part of the transaction, people that do the loan underwriting, people that do the registration work, people that do the title work, people that talk about the delivery because it's so complicated. But as we make those systems more integrated and more intuitive and AI can handle all the low hanging fruit I want the person to answer the phone that can traverse any of those systems and say here's exactly what's going on with your car I've got you covered I'm gonna follow up with you in two hours when I have more information and we're gonna be good to go And so we want the caliber of those people to be just off the charts and we want AI to handle as much of the low -hanging fruit as possible Final one, as a CPO analyzing other companies around you, which other companies' product strategy have you been most impressed by?

58:05I love the go -to -market of SpaceX. First order, if you're going to drop the cost of getting to space by an order of magnitude, I have nothing but respect for the operational discipline required to do that. but simultaneously you're going to then use that advantage to build out Starlink, which is likely to be an insane cash cow of a business that will allow you to continue to invest. It's brilliant and it's really to be admired because it takes such incredible vision and discipline and execution to do it and that's what I love the most is is disciplined execution operators. I literally tweeted say, I've been in private markets for 10 years.

58:45I've never seen institutional demand be so concentrated towards one company stock. Before it was always like, oh, I want Figma or all over a world or notion or whatever, everyone just wants space access. My question to you is for space access, if you enter at 360 billion, there are multi trillion dollar companies, but I think you also have to grapple with the fact that space access is mission is to make us multi -planetary. In the payoff timeline of terraforming Mars feels very long. You know, you've got to buy into this notion that it's about becoming a multi -planetary species as opposed to just building out starlink and can that alone be a $2 trillion business or whatever.

59:28I don't think about it as much from like what's its current valuation year of the investor. I think about it as like, I love the way this business is constructed and how clever it is to be able to take on such an enormous a swing while also building something so profitable and useful. Last one I promise. Open AI at 160, anthropic at 40 or XAI at 50, which one do you buy? I wouldn't invest in any of them. I think that the foundational models are trending towards commoditization and it's going to be difficult to capture all of the gains relative to what Google can capture and Microsoft can capture and others.

1:00:09Do we not agree though that cloud is commoditized? And despite that, AWS is still very valuable. Google Cloud is still very valuable. Azure is very valuable. Is there a difference between these comparisons? You can't, those things are commoditized and they add value added features on top of them. And what you've quoted is companies that are already valued at $5 ,000 to $160 ,000 a piece. And there's just an enormously long way to go to accrue the kinds of revenues and margins that will justify significant upside on top of that. And you have to believe that they're not going to be accrued by the cloud providers, by bringing these sort of foundational models into existing distribution channels.

1:00:48I wish we had a dinner party. You're amazing. You got such a fun energy and great at what you do. It's been really fun. I have to admit, I've wanted to see that show for a while. I'm such a fan of the Covana business model and Dan was incredible there. If you want to watch the episode in full, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20 Vc to watch that in video. But before we leave you today, if you're building a B2B app and want to sell to enterprises, you'll need some really important features like single sign on user provisioning audit logs and fine -grained authorization features that take just like months to build and maintain it's a nightmare.

1:01:23Well, that's where Work OS comes in. Work OS is modern identity platform that makes adding enterprise features quick and with flexible APIs and tools like enterprise SSO, directory sync and fine -grained authorization. Work OS helps you move up market really, really fast. Trusted by companies like Poplexity, Vacell and Sierra, Work OS gives you everything you need to win, enterprise customers, including a free auth kit for up to 1 million users. Check it out at workOS .com, that's workOS .com. Now that you've nailed enterprise features with Work OS, Let's talk about creating amazing product experiences.

1:02:01Get your users to do what you want them to do. That's the simple power of Pendo, the only all in one product experience platform. Pendo combines analytics, in -app guidance, session replay, feedback management and road mapping, all purpose -built to work together seamlessly. Trusted by over 10 ,000 companies, Pendo is transforming how businesses understand and engage their users. Plus they're the creators of Mind the Product, the world's largest product management community. See the magic for yourself, visit pendo .io -4 -20 -product -hiphon -podcast to get started. As always, I sir appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible 20VC coming on Friday with one of the hottest AI startups in tech.

1:02:41Soon.