20VC: Grindr: The Most Insane Story in Startups | How the Chinese Bought and Lost Grindr | The Successful IPO with $300M Revenues and 40% EBITDA Margins | How Grindr Built a Free Cash Flow Machine

25:37What you can bring to the table is they want to do X. They don't understand how that X impacts Y and Z over here. that they're not thinking about, only you can do that. But that does not mean you tell them, hey, you're wrong and this is the answer. I think that's like a really big kind of factor. Secondly, that I think is really crucial to kind of how I would do things different now is you've got to know what you're not good at and get the right people around you. That's different from, oh man, that I'm really bad at this and so I need to change this. The idea that a coronavirus is going to change everything about themselves is very low probability.

26:11like it's probably not going to happen. You can pick like one thing you're real when I change and I'm going to work on this really hard. But man, in a series A company where cash is running out and your product market Fed might not quite be there and your team is causing problems and your investors are yelling at you like trying to change everything about yourself is not going to happen even changing one thing about yourself is really hard. But you can put people around you who catch your blind spots and you need to be comfortable with them coming to and saying, Hey George, you do this a lot. You are really stressed right now and you're doing the one thing that causes a lot of problems.

26:44And I'm going to straight tell you that to your face and you need to listen to me. And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong, but if you don't have people on you, you can kind of catch those blind spots is a huge problem. Can I ask you a weird one? What did you think you were good at that you turned out to be bad at and how did that show itself? There were a lot of things that I thought was not very good at that I actually am really good at. Like I thought that I was not very good at recruiting engineers. I was terrified of recruiting engineers. After I started my company, the first engineer outside the CTO that I went to recruit, like I was literally scared to death.

27:16I have a huge fear of snakes, and this was like the second most thing I was scared of. Like, how am I going to talk to this guy about engineering problems? I know nothing about engineering. Turns out I'm actually pretty amazing at recruiting engineers. And engineers really like transparency, and I'm super transparent, and so having very transparent discussions and being very honest with like, I don't know this, and this is why I need you to come and help me here. really works with them. They actually appreciate that. Instead of it coming off salesy, they actually like, like, how he has a business guy who like is willing to say, I don't know X or Y.

27:46And that was a huge learning. I was a business person working in the tech world and you can be successful in that unless you're very good with engineers, but it was challenging for me to believe I could be good with them. Big learning that I became quite good. Another one I had to learn that's really tough is it's okay to be quiet because I respond to things really fast and a lot of engineers are much greater different. They probably have an opinion on whatever you said right away, but they spend a lot of time thinking through what they're going to say before they say it. And for like an extroverted dude who talks all the time, that's a really difficult right?

28:18Because you kind of like me to get comfortable with silence and that silence can last like one or two minutes and you want to fill that silence with content, but you're just going to shut up and wait. That one was a really tough for me to learn, but I think has served me very well. You said is a manager, but many people don't want to make people feel bad. To great managers make people feel bad. So I have a really hard time with this one because I'm told by everybody of them, I love feedback. George, tell me, give me feedback. It's okay. But if I have to give them developmental feedback, even though they might be selling, telling me it won't make them feel bad, I believe it.

28:53I'm going to make them feel bad. And that's really tough. Not everyone has this issue, but I do. and it's probably my single biggest challenge in being a leader. It's the one thing I've picked that I have to work on this because if I don't become better at this, I cannot go to the next level. As a CEO and as a leader. On an individual level, being in front of somebody, I'm like, hey, you are not doing this very well, it's really hard for me, especially if I care about that person. So there is a level of like, if I care for you, it's difficult for me to be giving you direct feedback when something is not working.

29:28When things are working really well, totally not a problem. So like with very high achieving people, I have no issues with giving them feedback, but when there's development of the clinic, it's really tough. So, you know, I've learned how to do it and it's painful, but I write everything out. So I give people like very long written documents that are like really detailed. And then I like send it to them in advance, and then I sit down with them and go through them, which is not the nissen, maybe necessarily the best thing for them, because usually it's better to do it in person, but to be able to express fully what I think, I have to do it in writing.

30:00Because otherwise, I will not tell you the full story. Because again, we'll feel like I'm making you feel bad and I won't come there. Yes, it's 100 % true. I actually don't give a shit what people think about me. In the broader sense, but on an individual level, it's something I run into problems with. Has it ever hurt you on a broader level? I saw also that there was some tweets that you sent up that people Does that really get you in trouble? Or is it like people get over? I mean, people get over it obviously, and you have to have right people behind you. When I was taking this job, I actually told the big shareholders at this point, Granted, I was so private so that kind of the owners like, look, I'm a conservative guy.

30:37I'm Republican. I'm also gay. I'm very social on these social issues of being gay. I'm very liberal and libertarian. I'm libertarian and some other issues as well. But on a lot of stuff, I'm pretty conservative. And I don't think there's a conflict on those things. And people knew that, and they were okay with it. I also knew that some people are going to have a problem with that, and we need to be prepared for that. Because unfortunately, we are in a world where people are not willing to appreciate the difference of opinion. You have to be exactly down this line, and that's strong both sides.

31:08You have to be all in on this side or all in on that side, not only that makes any sense. Do you think we have freedom of speech? I had the fans of Andrew on the show recently, recently and in to come we talked about it. Do you think we are in a society where freedom of speech is present? Look, I grew up in the Soviet Union where literally like if people knew what you both lived in you could go to jail. I remember evenings where my great -grandfather who had fought in World War II and he was a general in World War II would turn on a radio and try to find voice of America on the radio to listen to what actually was happening in the world and we all knew that if anyone ever got hand on his radio he'd be arrested even though he was like a 75 -year -old So you're here, right?

31:49And so I know what not having fiddermis truly means from that perspective. Obviously that is not the world that we live in today. Has the been a little bit too much self -sensorship and or censorship from other sources in the last decade? Yes, absolutely. I think the pushback against that has been pretty strong and I think we're going to end up in a pretty good place. I don't like saying I'm a free speech absolutist but at the same time, as much as I despise the idea of burning the American flag because I think this is the greatest, most amazing country in the world that has ever existed and probably will ever exist.

32:21And part of my mission in life is to do every I can to perpetuate that. People have the right to burn the flag. I can't stand that idea like it makes me want to puke. But if people want to burn the flag, they have the right to do that. They shouldn't do that, but they have the right to do it. I need to accept that on my level and somebody hearing something that somebody else says they don't like. That's totally okay. They need to be comfortable with that as well. Do you not worry that you will offend your stakeholders as being the customers. If you think about it, maybe a more Democrat audience in terms of your user base, do you know why that maybe I have LPs?

32:52I'm a fun manager. I'm always wary of saying something that might upset my stakeholders. Oh, totally. And look, the decision I made when I took this job was I don't make political statements today at all. It is not my job. My job is to be the best CEO I can be for Grindr and the things I might say that distract me from being doing that job and providing my users with the most awesome experience in the app and outside of the app are not the right things to do. That would be distracting to my shareholders, it would be distracting to employees and would not be good for my users. What do you think Wall Street doesn't get about, Carinda?

33:26The biggest thing we are really focused on educating people on today is that we shouldn't be just comped to dating apps when they talk about what the multiple on the stock should be. That we should be comped as much as to social network products as much as we're comped to dating products. Because people are using Grindr for dating, yes. But they're also using Grindr for all these other social experiences that are more akin to a Pinterest or a Instagram than the dating product. Okay, if we take that then, they are powered by advertising engines, which are incredible for cashflow machines, does Grindr become an advertising engine like they are?

34:04Well, we have an advertising business and we'll talk about that in a minute. A household thing is actually pretty cool that we're a social network that has a monetization engine that subscriptions, right? because that's pretty unusual. We do have an ad business. The ad business actually is how grind a gut started. So grind was profitable from day one because it was a bootstrapped company that used one founder built from scratch and he always made money on it and ads were the primary way he did that in the early days. So we always had an ad business. You know, in 2018 to 2022 period, there was a big under investment in our ad business.

34:34And so it was not growing really well. We started to change that in 2023 and those investments actually helped helped us to have a really strong year and add in the ad business this year. Ads are about 15 % of our revenue in total, but obviously on margin basis, they're even higher percentage because it's a very profitable part of the business. And we don't have to pay the Apple and Google taxes on that revenue. But we want that business to be bigger and we're going to continue investing in that. Today, most of our ad business is what we call third party ads, meaning we use networks like upfolio or Google, well, et cetera, to source those ads.

35:10We do have some direct ads as well, where we partner with brands to market directly in Grindr. Over the long term, I want us to have a much bigger direct ad business. But we need to do a lot of work inside the company to get ready for those types of partnerships. That's work inside the product specifically, right? We need to have better ads. We need to have more ad formats. We have to have better data access in terms of how the ad is performing for our advertisers. and we need a much better approach to how we sell better relations with the agencies. So that's all going to happen in the future.

35:44But in the near term, we tend to do a lot more with the third party ads as well. So I think ads can be a much bigger business. What we've said publicly is we want it to be growing at the same pace to stay at that kind of 15 % or ballpark part of our revenue story. If we do really well, maybe it does better. Okay, so we compute instead of to dating apps, we compute to social networks as you said that. Can't both dating apps and social networks, I'll take that too. What does that mean for how perception is changed? It's just an increase in revenue multiple. What does that actually mean for the self?

36:17It would be an increase in the EBITDA multiple, right? We're valued of EBITDA and the reality is that Facebook's EBITDA multiple is much higher than dating products, even EBITDA multiple. but I think just thinking of the business as purely a comp to a Tinder or a comp to Bumble is not the right approach. Just because users also don't use it that way. I mean, people are in the product way longer. They do way more in the app. They stay with the app over time for much longer time periods, even when they are in a relationship, they still stay in the app because it's this social network for them. So just thinking of us as Tinder doesn't make any sense.

36:49What happens with Tinder and Bumble? I don't buy at all the notion that young people don't want to date off online channels like. They do everything else online like they don't want to date online that does make any sense They want different experiences in the products than what is offered today But that's different from they want to do things online and so I think ultimately they'll figure things out or New online dating products will arise that will meet users needs I don't know if Bumble and Tinder will be able to figure that out You know clearly hinges doing a lot of things really well and is growing super nicely and and both in revenue and in use attraction So there is a way to build online dating products for three people without work.

37:28So I don't know what Tinder specifically and Bumble will do, but I'm very bullish about the online dating opportunity as a whole. I think it'll continue to do very well. What have you done in your grind, Detan, yet that you wish you had not done? It's an interesting one. I think when I came in, I didn't fully appreciate how different building trust with people who were already there would be versus ones that I had hired. So this was like a big aha moment for me that I mean, hey, because I never had any interest issues like I've had plenty of issues and people have lots of things to say about George should do differently But like my employees trusting George was never an issue But then I realized though obviously because you hear a founder of a company No one's gonna join that company unless they trust you So then like implicit part of their like decision -making process to come to work for a company that's led by a founder is that they trust the founder And I didn't appreciate how difficult and different, I'd say different, more than difficult, it would be to build trust with employees who were already present and there.

38:28And so I wish I had done more in explaining to them what my approach to things would be. I started to do that a few months in, but I didn't do as much of that in the very beginning. Now, some of this was driven by just kind of the time I showed up in October and we were going public in November. So it was like a really big focus day. We got to get the dispatch process completed and go public. We also didn't have a lot of other people on the team. Like it was me, Chief Product Officer in the CFO, kind of like the leadership and then everything else needed to be built out. And so there was like a lot of building the plane while we were flying it.

39:04But I heard from people, hey, like we need to hear more from George in terms of what's his vision for where he wants to take the business. And I had a very strong vision and I thought I talked about it, but not anywhere near enough. It turned out and so that's one thing I would have done differently in the first 60, 90 days if I had to redo that again. Can I ask, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail in doing it? Have two more kids. Why would you worry about failing in doing that? Well, kids are really important to me. So I'm a very unusual gay guy in that sense. I always knew I wanted children, frankly, coming out was partly difficult because I'm like, wow, what's it going to mean to my ability to have kids?

39:41because when I was going through this whole coming out process, like, Syracuse was not a thing yet. Game and having children was not that common. And so having kids was a very big deal to me. And, you know, what my husband and I agreed on is if we're past 45, we're not going to have more children. Because we just felt like you're too old. After having two kids and given how much time we spent on our children and how important they are to us, like, I'm probably the only Russell 3000 CEO that, like, like regularly shows up at school, is that like almost every dinner with my children like six to seven PM is like massively sacred.

40:16And yes, sometimes I'm not there, but like 90 % of the time I'm there. And so they're really critical to me. I don't know if I could do that with two more kids because kids are a lot of work. I just don't know if I have more than me to be able to give as much time to my, to cause I already have two more children than I would wanna have and be as good at the job I do. I don't know if there's enough of me for that. And so that's kind of what I mean by could I do it all? But if I was younger 35 I could wait for another five years have my kids be 10 and then have more kids But that's not an option.

40:49So that's kind of what I mean But like I could I could fail is it possible to be a really good CEO a really good father and a really good husband Oh, that's a tough one. I try to be a really good husband I'm I'm husband tries to be really good to me but we definitely are focused on each other a lot less today because so much of our energy goes to our children. But that's again a choice that we made, right? Like part of us being a couple is that we wanted to be a really good parents and we wanted kids. And frankly, I would exclude a lot of people as potential partners because they didn't want to have children.

41:20Like it was a very early conversation topic on any day that I ever went on. Because if you didn't want to have kids, we might have everything else going for us, but we wasn't going to go nowhere. So you definitely give up a lot if you want to be a really good dad I probably am not as good a husband today as I was before we had children Did having children change how you think about the style with which you lead? I think what I would say is the opposite the way I think about my employees and what I learn from them Really shapes things about how I approach my kids But things I learn about being a dad also do shape how I think about my employees because because so much of our behavior patterns are formed when we're young and we don't really appreciate that.

42:02And so I sometimes notice things about my team members in their behavior patterns before I would have never fought about it this way, but I'm like, oh, they must have really picked this up when they were young because I'm noticing my kids pick certain things up now when they're really young. Or I read about how XYZ behavior of a parent's results in this type of behavior in children. I'm like, oh, this is probably what's happening with my employees as well. So that I've definitely kind of learned and I have a totally new appreciation for helping my team members understand their behavior patterns and where they came from and how we can work around those.

42:37Because again, I don't believe you can change everything about yourself. You can change some things but not all. But you need to build structures around each person to make them be successful. Going back to the business, I thought when you're throwing off as much cash as you are George. What do you do with it? Do you do dividends? Is it buybacks? Is it acquisitions? What does one do when you have this free cash flow machine that you do? One thing I can say is very clearly, when are going to hoard cash for acquisitions? If there are acquisitions that are interesting at some point that we want to do, we'll deal with that at that point.

43:08But I don't think it's the right thing to do, to kind of just hoard cash and hope that something happens. We really believe there's a huge organic opportunity here and that's what we're really focused on. We're going to kind of look at what is the right approach to get cash to our shareholders at the time when we're doing it. We're not quite there yet. We have debt. We're paying down that debt. We want to get down to 1 .5 to 2x EBITDA on the debt. We'll get this soon and then we'll kind of at a board level make a decision on what is the right approach but in general, you know, we've never kept a lot of cash in our balance sheet and I don't we're gonna choose to keep a lot of cash for our reason.

43:46Can I finish with a bit of a story time? The business has this unbelievable kind of story. It's gone public. It was owned by a Chinese company, I think it was. I used to love story time at school, you know, and they say, hey kids, sit around. Can we just do a bit of that? Which is like, it was bootshot by one person who built it to being owned by a child. What happened? So by Wink Joel Simkai, who found a grinder like what an incredible story. I like this guy is not an engineer, has this idea of building this company into something massive and a global brand. So he wanted to create liquidity for himself after having building this business.

44:22Renner process, I think, had a bunch of offers, but best offer came from a company called Kunlin, which is a Chinese conglomerate, and he took that offer. Offer wasn't two parts, they bought 49 % first and then had the right to buy majority later. And then as soon as they were able to exercise that, they exercised it, and then they fired him. And so he was out of the business. But right away when they had 50 % plus control, CIFIAS, which is the US government committee that manages international investments, came and said, whoa, you never cleared this transaction with CIFIAS, and we don't believe it's okay for a Chinese company to own a company with this much important data.

45:00And there were 100 % right kudos to US government for doing what they did. It was a great move. and so they forced a divestiture. And it was like the first SIFIUS forced a divestiture and definitely the most prominent one that had ever happened. So Kunlin knew that they couldn't own grinder for the long haul. Unfortunately, significantly disinvested in grinder during that period of time, in terms of product investments, business investments. And in 2020, a random process to sell grinder, there were a bunch of bitters, but the winning bet came from these three individuals that came together into an organization called San Vicente.

45:34they kind of often have described as like a private equity and there's some private equity there, but they were not really kind of private equity people and they bought a grinder from Conlon in the middle of COVID. Signed the Trump sheet before COVID lockdowns happened and closed the transaction in June 2020. Pretty remarkable when you think about it. And even more crazy, the entire engineering team, which was at this point was in Taiwan, quit when the transaction happened. And Grindr's code base on the back end was all a monolith at this point. So like one mistake could shut down the whole product.

46:07So it was a very precarious period. Super impressive that these guys then said, okay, we're gonna really focus on the grinder for the long term, broad and a temporary management, which hired lots of engineers, and a lot of work was done to increase the stability of the product, make the code based lot better, dramatically investing kind of this technical debt improvements that need to be done. And then they went looking for long term management and public company management, and that's how they recruited me and then we went to public. So the individuals who bought Grindr from Chinese ownership really saved this company in a pretty big way and was a really remarkable film.

46:45I think one of your questions you were kind of asking was it a distress asset when they bought it? No, not at all. Because the product was still actually growing. User base was growing. Revenue was growing. There was very little investment happening in the company but it was not a distress at all. It was actually a very successful business. It just was made into even more successful business of the last four years. What an amazing story, huh? Yeah, it is a really incredible story. Final one for the quick part, what would it take for Grindr to be a $30 billion company? Hopefully, as being really good at execution and building out these new use cases, the what we call gave a hood expansion use cases, healthcare and wellness, travel.

47:23I think there are others that we are thinking about. I think networking and jobs is another really big opportunity. building those out and becoming successful in them. And then it's just now, for like, if we continue growing our revenue and maintain really good EBITDA, market capital kind of take care of itself. George, I've absolutely loved this. I'd love to do a quick fire with you. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Is that okay? Well, do my best. The happiest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions. What unmade decision ways on you most, George?

47:53I make decisions all the time. Like, that's my entire job, right? and I do that at home all the time too. So I actually don't have a lot of decisions I've not made because guess what, if you don't make a decision, that's still making a decision. One of my team members said, yeah, sometimes like, I'll ask you three questions and you'll answer only two and I've learned that that means that you're like, thinking about something and I'm like, yeah, but I also realized that you need an answer and when I don't give you that answer, that's basically telling you no. Most of my decisions are no's and so I don't really have that many that I can't like speak to.

48:21I guess, yeah, it reminds me of actually kind of a statement that those who know they can and those who know they can't are both probably right. Yeah, in a sense. What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months? So I believe that AI is going to be more of an infrastructure level layer as a solution rather than at a product level, in a way, in a sense, like adding application layer companies and products ultimately are going to be overtaken by an infrastructure solution because there's going to be a universal AI that does a lot of things for you. But in terms of how you think about the product and then I'm not changing my mind on that I think I've had that going to be for a while But how we get there is going to require small pieces of AI to come into our lives at various points in our product experiences All of our products that we use because we are not going to quite get to that ultimate goal for quite some time And I think I've adopted how quickly I believe we'll be getting there and that building these like small experiences makes more sense than trying to kind of have one big AI that does a lot of things all at once for a user.

49:23Got you. So just so I understand, you don't think that infrastructure models, basically you open AI to anthropics will subsume the application layer. Long term, I don't think you're going to need an Assana with AI. You're going to just have an AI, TBD, how you engage with it. That's going to tell every many other AI's what to do. You can have a lot of agents that are specific, and there's going to be one agent that's telling all the other agents what to do, and you're going to be talking to that one agent. But it's going to take a while to get there. My initial perspective was, oh, we'll be able to get to that one agent quickly and let's go work on that.

49:57But actually, I think you're going to need these smaller agents first that are more narrow in the nature before we can go to the one big agent. So as an example of how to think about this from a grind of perspective, we're going to have a more success building a feature that summarizes your chat history with somebody and gives you a really nice summary. You've talked to this guy for six months and here are all the things you learn about him that are helpful for you to have as a summary versus a bot that is able to talk to a person for you. He's going to take a lot more time to get the latter done versus the former and there's a lot of benefit of kind of launching these smaller features that will be benefiting users with AI while we work on kind of the more transformative AI features that it will take longer.

50:42What's your favorite consumer brand and why? You know, I kind of stick to things I like and don't change and then I discover something I like and I will stick to that for a long time. So I discovered worry about three and a half years ago actually I didn't discover my husband discovered worry about three and a half years ago now all my pants except for one pair of jeans that are boring even like when I wear suits I like a black 40 pants that I wear because there's so much better and the reason is because they're so comfortable on your hips and your waist because all these other pants are not as comfortable because they're not as stretchy and these guys are and I like really love that.

51:19You can be CEO of any other company for a day, which company do you choose? I believe that impossible things are possible. And I really, really believe that it's like my core mission. I've got a core like value statement in life is doing impossible things. It's the thing I've taught my kids from the very beginning. And so when my son who loves Legos, he built this Lego behind me, even though he's only five and that's like 18 -year -old Lego, he does them and sometimes they say, Oh, can't do this. Can you help me? I'm like, no, man. What's our motor? It's like nothing is impossible and they kind of go do it.

51:49So whenever I think, like when I think about that, I'm like, okay, like if I say this, like, what's the company actually would want to go after and like be a CEO of it? And, and, and I don't know. So I'm going to answer the one that's actually impossible, which is I would probably be want to be president of the United States for a day. And that's actually impossible because I was not born in the United States. Well, it's a good answer, let's. Final one. What question are you not often ever asked. The easier you should be asked. It's surprising to me how little people talked to me about my upbringing in the Soviet Union.

52:19I learned this when I was first starting to raise money for companies kind of talking to VCs. I saw this bifurcation 10 plus years ago and so VCs were like older and kind of were young adults in the 1980s. Had a very different thought about my background versus VCs for younger. Younger VCs never lived in a world where there was a real tyranny that they were like confronted with. There are real tyrannies in the world, China is a complete and not a tyranny, obviously, but we don't think of it that way because it pretends to have free market economics, which it really doesn't, but people think it does.

52:53But people who are kind of our older and who like saw the Soviet Union and remember it, realize what real tyranny is like. And so they have, I think, a different appreciation for people who like go up in that environment and both like what it means to have left that environment and be in a free place now and what it takes to do that, but also just like how it shapes your brain and the choices that you make. So that's the piece where like it's a really big part of who I am and how I make decisions, but a lot of people I think don't fully get and don't ask me as many questions as they probably should.

53:22Well specifically about it, do you think they should know? I think when you grow up in fear of a risk of what you might say, it really hurts you, you have a very different perception for how important freedoms are. I come to everything from like, okay, we gotta be protective of freedom, point of view, versus like, not. Right? And that's not instinctually. I think how everyone else thinks. George, I've so enjoyed this. I think you can tell from my kind of wavering around the schedule that we had prepared. Thank you so much for being such a fantastic guest. And I've just loved having you on the show.

53:55No, thanks for having me. And I had a lot of fun too. This is a really good conversation. Now, if you want to watch that full conversation on YouTube, you can find it by searching for 20 VC, that's 2 -0 VC on YouTube for more there. But before we leave you stay, one of the easiest investment decisions I have made over the last three years is investing in 11X. Their digital workers don't just automate tasks, they transform your business with 24 -7 operations, multilingual capabilities and human -like intelligence, they're revolutionising how work gets done. From prospecting to closing, 11X is the all -in -one platform that allows you to reduce costs, increase pipeline and boost conversion rates.

54:36And that's why companies like Plio, Handshakes, SourceGroff and more are customers and lovers of 11X. Check them out today at 11X .ai, you will not regret it. And speaking of incredible products, I want to share something interesting about the private market. Let me share one more exciting development from Hive, the Hive 50. It's the first live index of large -cap private securities generated directly by customer orders and transactions on the platform. Over 70 % of the US -based decacorns have traded on Hive, and the Hive 50 ranks the 50 most liquid securities in its marketplace, based on transaction volume and liquidity.

55:13The index equally weighs the top 50 stocks, effectively acting as a barometer for the market's direction, and momentum in private tech company investments. Go check it out at hive .com slash hive50, that's hive with two eyes to see how they're shaping the future of private market investing. Hive Market's limited is a broker dealer and member of FINRA SIPC investments in private stocks are risky, only accredited investors may buy through Hive. And just like Hive transforms liquidity, Tegas transforms how we gather insights for investing. When I invest in software today, I think software is valuable when it saves time and makes something easier, but when it enables the user to do something they simply could not do without it.

55:56Then it's insanely powerful and valuable. That's the case with Tegas. I literally could not live without them. When I'm investing in a company, Tegas lets me see the most incredible reference calls with experts in the space who work at a competitive company or incumbents. These calls and data provide the most incredible insight that really shapes my opinions and thoughts and investment decisions. And I can then share snippets from calls with team members. This is a tool that will change how you work. Honestly, you cannot imagine life without it once you've experienced how powerful it is. and you can check them out by heading over to tegas .com.

56:30As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Friday.