20VC: Keith Rabois and Mike Shebat on Creating an Olympian Mindset to Work Ethic, Why First-Time Founders are Better Than Serial Entrepreneurs, Why Remote Work Does Not Work, Why the Best Founders Always Start in their Teens & Why Companies are Cults?

24:24Like some people have things in their life that they have to pertain to whether it's like student debt or families or things like that. But I do question if you're joining a series A startup. You should be thinking about the equity value unlock more so than the cash. So I don't compete on cash with large mature companies where their equity is only going to go up like at the rate of the S &P 500 or anything like that. Does the culture scale the time? When we think about you said you're a Series A company. When you're a Series D company, does that culture look the same then? Or do we regress to a mean that sadly, we have to regress to?

25:00Well, we're gonna try our best never to regress to a mean. But what I would say is the culture does adapt based on the risk profile that everybody takes on. So when we first started the company, we were actually in office at least six days a week, 12 hour days. We were basically up against the clock to get to a series A funding. You need that level of commitment You need that level of being all -in and dedicating everything to it and that unlocked actually like an amazing series A We have pulled that back a little bit to be more flexible as we hire different types of people different roles that we need to fulfill But as we become a thousand person company We will modify it.

25:37What is the commitment together? but we will never sacrifice the high -velocity, high -performance culture. I do believe strongly that everyone should be joining a company, more like a Olympic sports team. It's not a family, it's an Olympic sports team. And like when you're an athlete that's not pulling your way, you get pushed off the team. I think you definitely do past ex -thousand employees see some regression to the mean. And the art is constructing some accumulating advantages, let's say a network of fact before that happens because the momentum of a network of fact can offset some of the slippage in like quality.

26:16Although that said both Amazon and Apple were able to scale to call at least 10 ,000 employees without regressing, so it's possible. I think other company cultures start regressing past 500. Some retain 510 ,000. You see some decay, but if you establish the correct network of fact that can offset. I mean, there's the other word of profit code about build a business that's so powerful that even idiots can arrive at. So, at some point, you do want to rack something that's a true machine, that you're constructing the machine through human labor, effort, energy, sacrifice. And at some point, you want the machine to be running.

26:51The machine can run for a while before it decays. Keith, having seen many different scale -ups in different situations, if you would advise Mike proactively on when culture starts to break and how, what would you say the most pressing points? You know, triply the biggest mistake is usually hiring them on person. Yeah, everybody you hire if you don't correct that person who's off on your culture and your values will hire like 10 more people like that and all the sudden you've got a real problem. Like is triply maybe the best that ever worked with I think maybe the yeah, almost sure the best of this trait is if he realizes the person's side to be off.

27:27He's gonna fix that person right away. What does fix that person mean? First, initially give them strong feedback on why you're off, what's not acceptable. Here's how you have to correct it and if not, you know, edit the team appropriately. Almost every other CEO I know, including ones who've been incredibly successful, probably procrastinate some that conversation a little too long. I do look for something called a force multiplier at the company and the people that I just want to promote, give them more equity, give them more responsibility. And the reason for that is because at scale, you're building an engine.

27:59and I want to basically when I do find somebody that is not only thinking about okay this is my job, how are they actually amplifying the cultural values that are important for success at our company? I do tell my entire management team that it's not your job is not about you, it's actually about the fact that you also have on other people. So if you think about any like micro - behavior, like for example, say you're late to a meeting, if one person is late to a meeting like three minutes late. That may not be that big of a deal if it's just one on one, but now you actually have a leader that's late three minutes to meeting.

28:32Everyone now thinks it's appropriate to do that. Now everything is slower by three minutes multiplied by the number of people that were in that meeting. If it's if it's an all hands even worse. The way that I scale the culture is I culture like basically being a force multiplier is actually a component in all the promotions, performance reviews. How are you actually embodying the behaviors that we know that at scale, say it's 500 people, what you're doing actually would be what we want to see across 500 people. Harry, if you read High Up The Management by Andy Grove written in 1983, it's basically the same philosophy and like translated it to trauma, which is basically everything's about what is the high leverage activity.

29:09High leverage activities can be high upside and they can have downside, and you need to stop the downside ones like the three minutes late to the meeting because it multiplies and then you need to amplify the positive ones and you want to filter people and your own calendar by whether something's a high leverage activity or not. Mind, do you celebrate wins? We do celebrate wins when we hit a very big milestone. I had given an all hands to the company and I was like, here's what we have to be proud of. Like, this is our unit economics. This is our growth rate. We actually doubted we could do it and we actually far surpassed it.

29:41Everyone clapped. Before people could stop clapping, I switched to the next slide, which is basically like, why most why combinators start up that graduate while a combinator end up not making it and it's because they get complacent and they lose momentum. One thing that keeps me up at night is it's always this balance of guys we are genuinely crushing it we should be very very appreciative of this and all these all this hard work is translating into actual results but then in the same way you don't want to have a feeling that we already made it is we definitely have not already made it you don't make it until we end up IPO -ing and actually I actually don't think we'll ever feel like we've made.

30:16It's always day one. We just raised an incredible round of financing based on real results and great people. But I also know that like if we just all get complacent and comfortable, which happens to a lot of companies, next quarter is not guaranteed to be as good as this past quarter. So we're always thinking like, okay, what's next? How can we increase velocity and work even harder? Like, sir, for example, let's apply this to a startup. I linked in by any measure was pretty successful. Certainly impact opposition 24 billion or so. Tristfully probably hit somewhere between five and 20 % of its you know potential because it didn't do some of these things like I In my mind is still confound you know still drives me crazy that LinkedIn wasn't more valuable if Facebook It should have been can you unpack that for me?

30:59Yeah, we didn't have an Olympic work ethic. We had a bunch of French engineers I wanted to work 35 hours a week at the time in 2003 to five when the company was really founded most people thought the internet was dead to read, didn't read Hoffman who founded the company, really couldn't get the stellar quality of talent that makes me able to tap it into. And it started propagating. Those people hire 10 people like them, and then all of a sudden you have a mediocre culture with a brilliant idea and a great viral distribution. So again, 24 billion for most people is acceptable. Michael be disappointed himself.

31:31It stops at 24. This might be more dire as it you, but it's just like when you think about the work culture and the commitment required for working at trouble, working in this environment, can you do that and be a parent? Yeah, I mean, I think you can. So I remember when I was a lawyer, the last month I was a litigator at Solvena -Comwell in New York, I built 360 hours. I bet you almost nobody works in the startups, works for 360 hours. That's built, by the way, not worked. Many of the people I competed with in my class of associates, actually, I have kids. One of the women, one of the women, Sharon, who is like a classmate of mine, who's now a partner, or type kids.

32:07So you can be very successful if you have kids. He requires you to be more disciplined, like about your time allocation. It tends to amplify things if you're really disciplined, maybe even do better with kids. You know, DeLiants about to have a kid, I'm sure he's gonna become just as good or better investor, you know, with a kid than he was before. I do have to ask, I had a guest on the show the other day and they said that you can be so productive in your 20s that not being your fullest work self in those years is one of the biggest opportunity because you will make or decision opportunity because you will make in your career.

32:38Others say that you need to experience life, travel, how do you feel about that and which side of the fence do you sit on? Well, I can amplify that. I think first of all, the technology, the opportunity cost in your toys is very high. If you look at a lot of people who've been most successful, the foundations of their career are in their toys. It's a little bit like sports. If you're gonna be an NFL player and the A basketball player and you know, a major league baseball pitcher, the idea of taking time off in your toys will be literally insane. Technology has some of that step -code and through co -founded Palantir and Shambh's CTO have both written blogs and Twitter threads about how you're committing like professional suicide by investing your time with distractions here for years.

33:17I think there's something to sampling, sampling different things in life like I sampled being a lawyer and then figured out what I really should be doing is building technology companies. So sometimes you do need to sample to figure out where your comparative advantage is and where double -bout but that's an investment to college's decision. It's not like, hey, I'm going to go see the world, I'm going to sit back and watch Netflix. That's why joining Traba in your 20s, like a company like Traba is actually by far the right move because if you are in your 20s, you have all this energy you actually want to like reach your full productivity and potential in this life.

33:49Why would you go work at a company where you could actually put like 50 % effort in beyond Zoom but like actually be going to doing something else and you're never worried about, oh am I actually going to get laid off, like you're basically wasting a whole decade of time in an area that's actually not pushing you. It goes back to what I talked about earlier with hypertrophy. You should actually be putting yourself in situations to grow from and actually surprising yourself in being like, wow, I actually am capable of doing this. Like you actually see people that accomplish great things very, very young and it's because they're putting themselves in the situation to actually challenge them.

34:22That's some specific examples. Why do you think the two fellows have been so successful? or why he founders, why have they been so successful compared to it, normal distributions, it's because they invest their time early in their careers and doing things that are challenging and they stress themselves, they challenge themselves through the hypertrophy model. Those paid dividends and they may have luxuries later in life because they invested. Most of the best people that were worked with in my career were actually interns. And they took advantage of being an intern, you know, we talked about Delia and we talked about Tony and Thordash.

34:54Taylor early in their career, putting themselves in a position to be challenged, to learn as much as possible, and then double down and leverage that as fast as possible. And that's how you generally break through in any field. I got two questions that I have to ask on the back of them. I kind of bold statements, but I do believe them. One, I find that all the greatest entrepreneurs that I see, I invest in, I work with whatever that is, but the greatest entrepreneurs start some form of entrepreneurial project early. They're 13, 14 building websites. They could be selling cookies at their school, but they start entrepreneurship in some way early.

35:27Do you both agree with that? I think that developing the skill of resourcefulness and basically being like, here's where I want to go and I'm not going to just take like these arbitrary rules or this system around me as an answer for that. I think developing that at a young age is very important. There's actually a general partner of Founders Fund named Tre. We were just at his 40th birthday party. One thing that was mentioned was that he didn't get into Georgetown the first time and he literally went and like set up a 10 in front of the admissions office and was like, I need to get into this school and ended up getting in.

35:59Like, I think that you need to develop whatever it is. I think you need to develop that mindset at a young age that whatever gets told to you isn't actually the answer right off the back because it was just generated by a system and people that are probably actually optimizing for the middle of the bell curve and like the mean. I think that whether it's building websites or other entrepreneurial endeavors or trying to find your way into like some system. I think that that type of mentality is very important as a young. Yeah. Paul, Paul grabbed a list of blog posts called, we're like, let's see, resourceful, which is I think the trade that Mike's alluding to.

36:31And I think to be successful, we're all sure we need that trade on steroids. Almost every trade that's important, you develop early in your life. And there's evidence of it. So like work ethic, intensity, resilience, resourcefulness, it shows up very, very early. As Mike alluded to, you know, trade, when they were roasting trade, they gave examples. as early as high school of like you know ways he was revitalized, he was resourceful. That shows up later when you're building companies, when he's co -founding companies. And I think everything that leads to success is actually shaped much of it that people realize.

37:03Pretty important about children. I do have you know kids that are two and a half years old and I was already trying to incocate all of these values like and I'm not accepting any excuses. Other parents are like you're crazy. I'm like no these kids are going to have these traits now. If you put 20 VC on in their nurseries, it actually just subtly. What tested out? You really tested out. Yeah, yeah. J -cable come home, be like, Keith. No. He doesn't have any way. Don't worry. He already takes some crazy. The question I have to ask, I used to show as a learning mechanism. I always have done. I don't like first -time founders, and I want to be learned from you guys here.

37:40But I don't mind them because I feel that there's so many mistakes one makes in their first company that you would never make in a second or third. And if runway and time is the killer of progress, you waste so much time hiring the senior exacts before you should, finding PMF, customer discovery, all of these things. Why am I wrong to not like first -time founders? I think first -time founders are actually better on average. Most of the best companies I've invested in are first -time founders, not all. Part of it is ambition. Part of it is you don't know what you don't know, which means you don't accept any rules.

38:12Once you learn too much even as an entrepreneurial person. You're taking some of those and they're not always right. I think the best thing you can do though, and we have this side conversation at the Twitter thread about this is care yourself very well with either investors or board members who can help identify some blind spots, sometimes with the grasses and quite greener so that you can take advantage of those lessons while you're a first -time founder with all the positive energy and all the positive no excuses, sort of mentality, then most second time factors, huh? I think I've learned something and I have avoided some mistakes at Open Store, but in some ways I wish I had done some things naively.

38:50One of the biggest mistakes that you most often correct first time. The biggest mistake was not being as intentional as Mike and Oxet about the culture at the very, very beginning. Culture is like concrete in liquid form. Concrete is really valuable, but once it solidifies, it takes like a jackhammer, which is incredibly disruptive, painful, expensive to break. I was a little too, I was a lot too passive and laying the culture for a really, and I really, really have struggled to fix that. Can I ask you, Mike, when you think back on the decisions you've made that you've been a mistake and you wish you'd done differently, what do you think those have been?

39:23If Keith's there was the culture and he should have been more international from day one, what would you always be? I think when I was first starting the company, you think everything has an equal way of importance. When in reality, you want to spend your time as you're scaling on the most high leverage activities that are actually going to 10x the business. It's that balance of sweating the details where every detail does matter. But then when there's only a finite number of hours in a day and how much energy you can apply towards something, I've grown as a founder where I'm like, okay, here's like as I'm starting my day today, what's like the most important thing that like is critical to the company and I should be like putting my time towards that and learning the skill of like delegating the other things.

40:03but then, and then while still pressure testing, but I think when I first started every single detail had an equal amount of importance and actually Keith being around the table for the whole journey, he actually did give him a metaphor of like I'm operating more like the army where the army is like very much like operational official official across everything, no mistakes. Whereas what I should be doing is a founder is being more like a Navy SEAL going all in and like really applying myself into like the highest leverage activities. I'm going to go there on something but why not? Founders funds, mortars like don't fire the founder.

40:38Keith, you must have invested in people where they're not as good as you think they are and they don't live up to expectation and actually they don't listen to you for whatever reason. What do you do then? Ventures a lot like baseball in the United States. If your world class you're right 40 % of the time and I define Ventures Teed stage investing series a investing 40 % Hall of Fame 10 Williams Tech category. So my definition 40 % right is gonna lead to 60 % not being right Parts think is it's such a big challenge like reinventing an industry is that this heroic effort our partner Trace Steven says Building companies talking hard like direct quote, you know and it really is the worth using the direct quote, because it signifies how challenging it is.

41:18So being 40 % right and 60 % wrong is what you're kind of signing up for. What I care most about is that people leverage their ambition, their talents, their skills, to the highest potential. Not everybody is gonna be a majorly baseball pitcher, even though a lot of people start in college and try. And if you have that potential, you wanna fulfill it. And so that's most exciting. Like I don't expect founders to listen to me, by the way, just to be clear, I almost never tell a founder what to do. I do have feedback and hopefully insightful feedback about my kind of spidey sense of what's working and what's not, almost like a cartoonish mirror at a haunted house, try to exaggerate the positives and exaggerate intentionally the negatives and play it back to the founder and say, is this what you really think you want to be doing?

42:03It's worth emphasizing that a lot, every company that success was like a cult and every cult that works is unique. And so if you just take general feedback and apply it to a unique situation. It can often be bad, like really bad. So I think that is exactly the role of the calories. What am I building? What's special? What's differentiated about what we do? Our company culture. And then how do I apply general frameworks? To my specific talent pool, my specific market, my specific culture. This is actually like specifically, like I'll give you another illustration of another founder who thinks like Mike does.

42:35So Max Roads, you worked with me at Square, now runs fail. When he asked me difficult questions, he actually starts the question with what's the right framework to think through this problem It's never what's the right answer. It's like do you have a conceptual framework that I can apply to my company? What do you think of the frameworks which are malleable to companies across stage or sector or space? Like what are the frameworks which do apply across and you should take and learn from? Let me give you an extreme example from that kind of public domain. Most people say you used to build a company that's transparent, right?

43:05that you hear us all the time, transparent, blah, blah, blah. Outflow, which is the most valuable tech company in the planet, is completely non -transparent in every possible way. Employees are not allowed to go to the wrong buildings, they have separate badges, they're not allowed to know what other employees are working on, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Obviously, the mainstream advice clearly doesn't work to build the most successful company in the history of the planet. So some extent, you know, that's the point, is like there isn't a right way to do things. You have to figure out why what you're building is special and differentiated.

43:33If you read zero to one, Peter talks about both close and secrets. So you have secrets about the world that you believe that other people don't subscribe to you, and that's what powers your competitive advantage, and that's what you're doubling down on. Apple has lots of beliefs about the world that most people don't believe in, but that's why they're very successful. And you can't like apply that. Like nothing that works in Apple would work at Google. Like everything Google does is completely antipiscidist in Apple. And so that's why you have to have a philosophy that accommodates successful examples, and then you apply that philosophy to what you're trying to do.

44:05If you have a monopoly, for example, Google has this 20 % side project bullshit or they used to. If you have a monopoly business, with 99 % gross margins or 90 % margins, maybe letting your employees waste time once a while, maybe isn't catastrophic. Most of us do not run pure monopoly businesses with 90 % margins. So that would be catastrophic to our businesses. That would be catastrophic to do it out. So you'd be possibly catastrophic to travel. It would definitely be catastrophic to open store. I always say to founders, don't try and educate investors. If you need to educate them, it's just too hard.

44:39Well, I think I agree with you, Harry, that once you're having that conversation and try to educate investors, they either notice that and they spot it and they're like, oh my God, this is amazing. Where they don't and just avoid them. Well, when it's like, talk to me about clown and you're like, we're gone. From where out like this is just not going to work. Well, this is why to give advice to entrepreneurs who are listening. Actually, I don't think you should practice your pitch with mediocre investors, even though lots of people give that advice. Because really good investors are going to ask completely different questions.

45:08And you're going to just mislead yourself by practicing with mediocre investors, and then you're going to get a really good investor, and they're going to ask completely different questions, because you're going to dial into what actually matters. And you can almost tell, like, you know, I get to work on both sides of the table, because I'm raising money from investors, pitching them, and then obviously hear a lot of pitches, and watch our portfolio raise money. There's usually two or three things that matter and when you talk to a really good investor It's so consistent how they dial into the same two or three things.

45:36I agree. I think the hard thing is that honestly Most people don't meet the good investments My my question she was actually could Traba or could any of the companies that you've worked with key be built outside of the ecosystems They were in we joke about Europe But could they have been built in Europe like how important is that local Maxmer of talent that you have Mike in Traba that it's in person in office Well, personally, I believe you need to be in person. So when Mike started the company, he and Oxay were courageous because at the time, there was this consensus for you that people could work remotely, and distribute ways, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they were like, we're doing an in -company and in -person company only period, like six days a week.

46:18Now, more people realize that that is the correct way to build a startup. The three years ago, that was incredibly contrary. And, you know, we at Founder's Fund have pretty much put a lie in the sand that we want to invest in remote companies because we've just watched 50 years that there's almost no examples of people building companies that way and there's lots of, it's actually been a founder of you've been a CEO, Peter has if you've been a CEO and found out you're like, oh, then you've been a co -founder like Tray You just know why, it's very obvious why it doesn't work and so we immediately filter that way.

46:48But it happened to get Mike a lot of credit because that was not almost like an acceptable view to have you know, during COVID or the end of COVID, I think you can do this in Europe. You'd have to be careful because obviously, European countries have all these regulations about people working. But we have a great company, trade repulva in Berlin, run by actually a founder who's very similar to Mike in terms of DNA, Christian. And it's doing very, very well. We have a board meeting actually later today. Also, it's possible, but I think it takes the courageous, confident, no excuses, tenacious founder to pull it off.

47:22Mike, how do you feel? Could you have built trauma somewhere else? Starting in Miami was definitely the right move. I do think that being different than most, I mean, we were working six days a week, 12 hour days in Miami, Florida, where people do, like, there's beautiful beaches there, there's like a lot of things to do. People would be like, okay, I'll move to Miami, work at Traba, dedicate everything to actually making this company work, building relationships that will last a lifetime, go through a lot of challenges together in Miami. I do think that and I did work with Uber in a lot of countries that like France like Netherlands Egypt and even though most of the population may have a certain culture I do think that being very unapologetic and saying this is what we are and you can opt into it.

48:06I do think you can still find the top 1 % or people in those communities that will opt into that. The risk is when you are too open and aren't upfront with what actually you want to commit to. And that's when you hire people that are all over the place in terms of what their commitment level will be. Final one for a quick fight. Keith, you just said about that, you know, remote work, not generating great companies. You have your Git labs and your Zapiers. And I've seen a lot of people on Twitter be like, oh, Keith, you're so wrong on this one. And so I'm going to get in trouble if I don't ask it.

48:39I'm talking about it. So I actually source GitLab for KV. We are this seed investor and I met them in YC office hours and I knew they were special. I think you build an open source company, predicated an open source software and it's distributed away because you have thousands of contributors or hundreds of contributors all around the globe to open source software and you're managing and corralling the contributors. It's a very special exception, but I knew it and I knew it right away. So I'm not going to accept like Twitter people who have never found a successful company criticizing it when I knew that found the exception in the last decade.

49:11You know, and last thing I don't think was actually built the way people remember, I don't know all the details, but it's a probed of debt. I don't think it's quite as clearly true that it was built that way. That it was built remotely. Maybe when you have a network of facts, maybe when things are going perfectly, you could build remote company. Like, for example, Airbnb is a microlead of two, I invested in the beginning with Airbnb. You know, obviously they've gone to remote culture, but they have the best network of five business I've ever seen. And if you ask Brian or Joe, would you start a company from scratch today as a new founder?

49:39I can guarantee what that answer is. It's not going to be doing remotely. Why is it the best network effect business you've ever seen? Well, because you have a network of fact to cost markets. Typically you have a local network of fact, but Airbnb is great because you have travelers that take going from China to New York and vice versa. And that's pretty rare when you can actually literally spread across markets.

50:06You have So like there's the more slide you have, the more likely I can find what I want, the price point I want, the neighborhood I want, with the layout I want. But then also, once I've been to New York, then I can take it back with me to Miami. And so that's extraordinarily rare. Okay, listen, I want to do a quick fire answer. I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. I'm going to direct them. So don't mind, it's not going to be a free -frual. Mike, you can be CEO of any other company for a day, which would it be? If only for a day, I think it would be interesting to be the CEO of the New York Times.

50:35That's great. Keith, where do interest rates go from here? They're not going much down. I mean, I think we have sustained inflation for structural reasons for a decade. Yeah, plus or minus, they might be slightly alleviated, but there's a lot of very strong reasons why of the zero interest rate, a low interest rate environment, was a, you know, one -time history kind of world. Mike, was the right way to view competition? Be aware of competitors, but not to obsess over them. Keith, 2024, are we more optimistic or less optimistic than 2023? Well, I'm optimistic. I just don't believe there's a lot of great startups to invest in as VC.

51:11There's two different things. Generally, you have to be a technology optimist. Mark Adjacent pointed out to be a successful investor. You always have to meet a founder and say, what can go right? What is the potential of this company? And what is the potential of this person? But I think there's going to be rare examples of when things can go right on a probabilistic basis. Mike, what's the best piece of advice you've been given in the trobe journey? Be on apologetic of what you stand for. It actually creates the right effects downstream. Keith, final one for you. If you could change one thing about Founders Farm, what would it be?

51:46I think we need to be younger and cultivate up and coming talent for investing because it's a decades long business. Peter's been around for a while, Brian's been around for a while, trade just turned 40. The problem is, and the challenge is projecting who's likely to be a great ambassador is even harder than figuring out who's going to be a world class founder. What are the biggest signs that someone is a great investor early? We were talking about Dali and beforehand. I think investing is a little bit like playing the guitar, and you can't really tell someone who can play the guitar until they pick up the guitar.

52:19And so you can't read a book about playing the guitar and know whether you can play the guitar or something. And so I think the only way to tell is you need to get So you need to try to invest. You need to watch, can this person identify with taste? Who's a world cost founder? Can they close an interesting investment? Do those companies show signs of light? I've yet to find a really strong proxy for that where I know how to find a world cost founder. I know how to evaluate a world cost founder. Do we actually usually know how to interview and executive, et cetera? Try to identify who's gonna be a world cost founder and so you see them actually try to do it.

52:51It's really, really, really difficult. And you don't get real returns for six, eight, ten years. Whereas like an executive, I always know in 30 days whether they're really gonna work. Jeff had insight said you need 10 to 20 million to learn. Yeah, there's that famous fighter jet thing from John Doherb about you like you crashed an F -15, 50 million, a meal from a graylock used to talk about that. I don't know if you really need to lose that much money. I think a year in you know what you have. Like we knew Trouble was working pretty damn quickly. Delly and you Faire was working at the second board meeting.

53:22he pushed me out of Ralph even before launch to double down. I actually think within 12 months, 90 % 99 % of the time you know whether you've made a good investment, even if the external world doesn't know. Might final one for you, where are you and Wes Trober in 10 years time? We'll be a publicly traded company and working for that trillion dollar goal we have. We have improved millions and millions of people's lives, upskilling them, connecting them to the right jobs at the right time and we've unlocked a new level of productivity in the supply chain. So people are getting food faster at a better price.

53:54Buildings are getting put up with a better cost, getting put up faster. There's not this constraint of labor across the supply chain. Guys, I've loved doing this. This is why I didn't really like the schedule because I thought the conversation was so much better without it. Thank you both so much for joining me and this has been fantastic. Absolutely. I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for having us. I just love doing that. You can tell in my tone how much fun I had there. If you want to see the full video of that discussion, you can check it out on YouTube by searching for 2 -0 VC, that's 20 VC.

54:24But before we leave you today, did you know that every 20 VC episode you listen to is recorded with Riverside? Riverside is insanely good. Like I would pay a thousand dollars per month, 4 Riverside, it's that good. Why? Well first off, E's. Your guests do not need an account, one click and they're in the recording room with you. It is fantastic, especially for high profile our guests. Second, they record your video and audio track separately and in the background, so they're not only higher quality, but the guest does not need to record their end and then send after which is a total nightmare.

54:58But for me honestly what I love so much is how much thought they put into the product. Like when the internet quality is low, they will disable the video for the cool, but for the recording it works seamlessly, it records perfectly, it's so thoughtfully done and it makes such a difference. Use my coupon code 20VC that's 20VC and get a 15 % discount it is the tool I could not run my business without. Again you can check it out at Riverside .fm and use my code 20VC that's 20VC and speak of game changes for businesses as a VCI come across many businesses that have potential and offer a great product or service but they run into issues and that's why I love the team at a rising vanishes.

55:39They're a holding company that acquires tech startups that are facing setbacks and helps get them back on track success. They've helped companies like UpCouncil, which they took from burning $1 million a month and shrinking to profitable and growing jive where they launched a shutdown company and went from north to a million AI in just 5 months. They want to reveal your great business underneath the broken incentives. Whether it's a broken cap table, co -founded disputes, underwater common stock, the team behind to rising ventures are career long tech founders, which is so important they're not bankers and they know even the greatest businesses have tough times.

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