20VC: Monzo: The Greatest Turnaround in Tech: From £40M Revenues, Layoffs, Downrounds and Low Employee NPS to $1BN in Revenue, Profitable and 10M Customers with TS Anil, CEO @ Monzo

24:13You mentioned the fees and the transparency around them. Do you think we're able to transparent with that fees? I'm not a customer. I can't blame you for trying. I can't blame you for trying. 10 million customers in the UK. And a half a million small businesses, sir. And a half a small, very important addition. How big can one get in the UK? And when does one think about, hey, we really have to internationalize now. That was the biggest question segment that everyone had. When do we go international? I think the when do we go international is now. We're public about the fact that we're investing in building out a strategy for Europe.

24:46We're public about the fact that we have a small team in the US building product for the US cost for the American customer We've had that for a while. Not really. We did the first in the first iteration of the US What we spent our time on was applying for the banking license and we pulled out of that process when it felt like Regulation there was unlikely to grant any fintech players licenses So we pulled out of that process that was the that was the sort of first decision. It's the right decision to pull out Oh totally because I mean nothing has moved you know on the regulatory front on that in the couple of years or three years Even since we pulled out so yeah that's absolutely what we're doing now be different because we're not looking to go in with the banking license.

25:18The US FinTech industry has this well -established model of a partner bank, a sponsor bank, and most of the US FinTech industry operates with that model. That's what we're doing. So working with a partner bank and building out product for the customer and focused on the things that we do really well, which is work close to the customer and nail what will help them make better. Why has no one on the US here? It's interesting, Harry, so I've spent a lot of time looking at talking to different US FinTech companies. There's lots of hypothesis. I have a couple. One is too much cheap capital, chasing US fintech.

25:50Because what that I think I ended up doing was create a context where most fintech entrepreneurs felt like they were being incented to grow users. And the number of businesses that we look at in the market, which is a mediocre product, sort of fueled by cat marketing dollars, but the actual business, the actual product doesn't resonate. The actual product is not doing what they wanted to do. And the monetization is coming from early wage access or some like one piece of it as opposed to all of the other sort of talk about the business is staggering. So I feel like money chases the wrong things and people sort of build businesses that were sort of cack fuel businesses in effect.

26:26But there's another reason, right, which is US Fintech has been a developed industry for a while in being a developed industry for the last couple of decades, what you have is really great Fintech companies that have solved thin slivers of needs, right. So for P2P, there's a Venmo or there's a cash app for point of sale lending, there's someone else for something else, there's someone else. So it's a very fragmented front deck industry, but which is where we see the opportunity, the idea of bringing it together in a single place for the American customer seems very attractive. How do you think about the importance of the right anchor product or entry point?

26:58I know Vlad at Robin Hood very well. He came in here and found mine for a long time. I don't really get stock trade, I don't know how he's gonna get killed with this. It's such a bad friend of a shit friend of all. Stock trading is the entry point for product expansion. Seems difficult to get my head around. How do you think about the right entry point Yeah, so on its answer, we're still in a bit of discovery mode on that why will they come question because ultimately, is it an account? No, I don't think so. It's a very credit hungry market. It's a market where a lot of people have been trained to apply for credit and that's the hook product.

27:33I mean, ultimately we think about it across, you know, why will they come? Why will they stay? And then how do we make money? We're still early days in sort of pounding the table and saying this is a high conviction answer to that question. So let's take into that like why they come in the US you said it's kind of still in the ideation phase or kind of figuring it out. Where do you think it is and what is it? I mean credit is the obvious hypothesis as I said right because if you look across the FinTech industry both in terms of how people are monetizing it and what's driving user growth credit and it's a JSON products like early wage access and so on seem to be a big part of the industry so that's that's what we're sort of working on and getting ahead around what that real thing there is and what's best product for the customer that context.

28:11Is there not like 50 early wage products, like wage stream in the US? Does that not just eat well that valley prop? It does. And that's why I said we're trying to figure out what's the differentiating thing that we can really uniquely bring. How do you think about the US expansion trade off between the European expansion? So I think it's possible to be insanely ambitious and very disciplined at the same time. So it sounds like a catch all, but let me explain what not doing that would look like. Not doing that would look like, we look at the US and say we have an okay product. Now let's just go by growth.

28:43So that's being ambitious, but not being disciplined. We're saying, we're going to build a great product first, not burn a whole bunch of cash on the way to getting there, not painting buses and doing crazy things anytime soon. Build a great product, see that customers are using it. It's resonating with them and then sure as hell, right, being terribly ambitious about building scale in that market. What does that mean in terms of how you think about Europe versus Europe. So you're still building out the strategy, still working with the regulator, still building out what we think the game looks like.

29:12In the meantime, we have people building product for the US. So in some sense, this is back to my play across Horizon's point, right? Because you're planting flowers and bushes and trees all the time. What is that? It's from a resource allocation perspective then. If you think about $100 in the Monzo Bank camp, 15 go to the US, 20 go to Europe and 65 goes to the UK. on a snapshot basis this year, it's more like three and seven and 90. Wow. Right, because we're in US. Yeah, because I don't need to spend that just yet, right? I could take the opposite approach that says, no, no, no, I want to show you the growth.

29:46I want to show numbers and I want to sort of manage this for a short term uptake. When does it become like 20? On the other side of feeling like we've got the high -conviction product. Absolutely. Not shy to invest. Not shy to aim for big numbers and build an extraordinary business in the US. just like we have over here. But it's a little bit caught before the hostess say, why aren't we spending 20 today? In terms of European expansion, what do we need to do in that? Here's the thing about Europe, and obviously it's easy to see it as a single market, and it is in some ways, and it's not in a whole bunch of others.

30:17So when Europe is a different question than sort of which markets and so on, that's the work we're doing right now. Which do you think is the most important in Europe to Enfield? I think in the long how can I make everything? We want to be bigger across Europe. Sequencing it as a function of where do we think, size and odds of success, sort of match up better. But the thing that we will do in the US, in Europe, just as we've done over here, like what won't change? Build a single global tech stack on the back of which we can build amazing products and ship them. Number two, build close to the customer.

30:48Understand what the customer wants and build what's right in that context. A size of market odds of winning. Where is the first one and two that we go to with Monser in Europe? Too early to answer that questionary, but we also probably come up with the fact that we're choosing Ireland as a beach head into Europe. That's the regulatory regime we want to work with and that's where we want to domicile out of. When you look at size of market and all the potential, I wouldn't have put Ireland in the top five. I was answering those two criteria, I was answering in the context of where do we want to enter and win, where do we want to domicile out of?

31:19And Ireland is an attractive market. It's not the biggest market. And so of course, we want to do more than that. We'll start there. What will be the biggest challenge in expanding across Europe? It's different countries with different make -ups of what attracts customers, what is the real pain point they feel, what segment is more attractive or more underserved. Getting those nuances right is not trivial. Here's an alternate product strategy. If we were playing to have a thin layer product that was thin R2, scaled to lots of customers, but fundamentally met a very narrow need. You can do that a lot more easily.

31:54But what we're looking to build is this idea of a business with high engagement with customers, extraordinary economics up and down the PNL, and in sync with the mission that we have, you end up at a different place in terms of how you think about the strategy, right? You don't think about planting vanity flags, but you think about it in terms of, how do I build businesses of scale everywhere? Why is engagement a core matric fee? If you think about your relationship with your money, sometimes you would say the less you think about it, the more frictionless it is, the less you engage would be more successful.

32:24How do you think that engagement is a much success? So two things. One is the way we define engagement is usage. I'm not defining engagement as how much time do you spend thinking about your money? I'm defining it as... How much time on app? Looking at balance. Right, so that's another thing. Engagement is how much do you use monzo? So we look at it in terms of a weekly transacting usage, not just revenue active. You can have a lazy balance with us and be making money for Monzo. I don't think of you as an active customer. Are you using the product? So that's engagement. Why is that important? Well, because it's correlated with the high R push that you see.

32:57Those are our average R push. You can imagine what the highly engaged customers, even within the base, you know, disaggregate that, what those R push look like. So engagement drives greater economics for the product itself, but also the ability to buy more product from Monzo. An example, you know, talked about investments a lot today, but when we launched our investments product, I literally did one press interview and by that evening, we had 150 ,000 customers add themselves to the waiting list for the Monzo Investments product. The distribution is the outcome of something. And I'm saying that's the outcome of engagement and trust with us.

33:29So this is why I love it when people say, oh, it doesn't get easier with time. It's like, it freaking does. It is so hard to get a hundred people to give a shit about you in the early days. you get 150 ,000 when you have an incredible customer base like E .D. But that incredible customer base is not an accident. And that's the point. It's come about because we've built that love and trust. It's because warm fuzzy words like mission are not warm fuzzy words for us. It's about saying, how does it actually connect with the customer? What's the real problem we're trying to solve? And how do we stay manically obsessed with that?

34:00Because it drives all those second -order effects. But back to your question about engagement, and why is it important? So that's one, right? That greater engagement is greater economics, R, P, etc. There's a second piece of this because what we're effectively building out, Harry, is a consumer platform where engagement is measured in the trust that customers place with Monzo. The love that they have for Monzo, but here's a trivia question. Do you know how many times more likely it is that a customer uses the word love when they're writing a review about Monzo? seven times more likely than anybody else.

34:35And this is in the context of an industry where love and banking, love and financial service just don't go in the same zip code. But we're building this consumer platform where that engagement is measured in trust and love and doing more with Monzo. And on the back of that, we earned the right to do so much else for customers. There's some tropes in startups, which are commonly said. I'm just intrigued how you feel about them. You said they're about the 150 ,000 people when I said about stop trading. building, they will come, agree or disagree. No, disagree. It's a difficult industry if the only thing that mattered was the product, how do you reach customers?

35:13You have to create the virtual cycle. In our case, that virtual cycle is the virality of it, is the tools that make people want to talk about us. You've built a great product so that you create the love, but then you need things to happen around that. It's not just about the great product. being first is everything. Depends on the industry. Sure, there's some sectors where that's probably true. Do you think it's important that you're first to market in the market? We're 500 years late to banking. There's nothing first about that. And yet, here we are. There are many areas I could go down. Another one that was so important for everyone who was bluntly IPOs.

35:48How do you think about when you'd like to go public? We have the luxury of time. We have the gift of time because we have plenty of capital to build out our ambition. and not only that we have extraordinary supportive investors, patient, but also supportive, as it would give us more capital if we needed it. So it's not a thing for its own sake. We know we'll make a great public company one day and we'll get there when we get there. Why would you go public soon? You have high -supported, high -tech pocketed investors, plus an awful lot of scrutiny that you're bringing into your company when you don't need to.

36:19So two things, one is we already know how to operate in a highly regulated context. So the gap between a tech company like us versus another tech company that just doesn't have to deal with scrutiny is pretty white So with the gap for us from here to becoming a public company is not insane. Let's start there But why become a public company at all? I mean this you and I could come up we take some time to come up with five names of great brands great companies That we respect that are not public right so we feel like at some point it's good for the business It's good for investors. It's good for the brand to eventually become public anyway So that's but I just think there's always like a why now and there is this extended window privatization with larger larger funds moving earlier and earlier meaning that you can be private for sure I'm happy to see sure yeah, but so I guess it's just say why ever not why now so yeah Why ever I think it's a good question and we're to the extent that that's not what we're obsessing right this second There is a why ever thing that we should answer as well.

37:12Yeah, would you go public in London? I knew you'd ask that of course. It's it's the question you need to take a swing at Well, you know exactly what I'm going to say. London's talking, Shane, Jost, me to Tom and do a show with them. Because my question is who would go public in London? You can't go public in London. But it's totally for us to call it Harry. I mean, that's the honest answer. I could say it lots of different ways, but that's the honest answer. Could you bring a picture for me as to why you would go public in London? I mean, this is a whole market where a huge brand in the UK. So there's lots of reasons to be to think about the UK.

37:42There's no institutional support at scale that will provide liquidity. and both the last government and this government are doing a bunch of things to improve that. There's been no death of policy changes that have come about and so on. And we have the gift of, I said, we have the gift of time. We have the gift of choice as well. And we'll wait and watch. There will be a time when we need to make that decision. It's not now.

38:04You asked me about tropes, by the way. Yeah. So you could go back. That was a bad one. Give back. Give back. This one, you know, I genuinely don't think I have a better answer than to say, you know, we don't have to make a decision today. and we'll make it when we need to make it. That's the honest answer. I could say it in long ways, but that's the heart of that one. But, you know, to the tropes was this, you asked me this thing earlier as well about... Common Mexican sapsions. Founder mode. How about that? Oh, so it's all the rage that debate about, you know, Founder mode and so on. Is there survival bias in the analysis and how people talk about it and so on?

38:37But here's how I think about it. I think to build a great company at scale for the long term, a leader has to be good at a few different things. Really good at setting the ambition for the company and a product vision to go there, be able to operate really close to the product and the user experience and the way value is created. And then three, be able to scale execution, which means build the right leadership and the team and the culture that allows you to continue to scale at bigger and bigger numbers. So you have to be good at all three and some of these qualities get dubbed as one thing or the other.

39:11I think a debate about it's this is the only thing feels to me like a trope right it's I think of it like a triathlon right you have to swim bike and run if you want to win this at scale. So any discussion that feels like oh all you need to do is be great at swimming feels like kind of totally missing the point. Is it difficult coming in as a CEO when there is such idolization or founders today? I'm sure it was difficult in some ways early on but it was difficult only in that I was an normally, most people, investors included, were used to seeing a 20, 30 -year -old in a founder -page mode. In that sense, hard because there was an expectation of what they expected to see.

39:48And then I rock up and it's different. Earning credibility and trust takes a different path. It was easy to see me as someone with lots of experience in big companies and a safe pair of hands, but what at 10X the company? And the team needs to believe that, investors need to believe that. So hard in that sense, sure. But what's life without taking challenges like that on how many rounds of e -rays now see you Three rounds three rounds and the last one was at 5 .9 correct Which was the hardest round and which was the easiest the first was easily the hardest really why the first was the hardest because You know, I mean you open this one much to be rose then we raised to 150 million pounds 250 Yeah, and that was pretty quick off to come in and we did the down -round Within minutes after I start like three weeks after I started and then we topped up that down -round over the next six months Is employee moral down when you have a down on it?

40:36Everyone you look like really proclaims the damages of down rounds. Is that wrong? It's not wrong. You know, in an industry where everybody likes to talk up the valuations, the interim valuations. Of course, it's a thing and you need to manage that. You need to explain to people why. But importantly, as a leader, you have to see through the storm, to the business you're building on the other side of it. And this was a storm. And we needed to know that we will, you know, we will write this ship. But really, this is not about safe pairs of hands writing the ship. but it's about building that business that you're going to build on the other side of it.

41:07So of course it's hard to pretend otherwise it would be silly, but point is you have to play the long game and you have to have that conviction as the leader that you're going to get it done because everybody's picking up on your energy. Everybody's picking up on the cues of your conviction about it. What was the easiest round? This last one we did. And how much was that? With $650 million. $650. Why do you think that was easier? Because anybody looking at our story by then could see the the fact that we would be on a doubling -kegged revenue trajectory for a while. Anybody looking at the business could see everything that we talked about in terms of customer engagement and love wasn't warm fuzzy fluffy, but meant that our output is significantly higher than any competitor.

41:50The stickiness of revenue is higher than anybody else. It could see the dynamic of that business, could see that by growing users as aggressively as we are, but it's not because I'm burning cash. It's because people are recommending us. So the dynamics of the business were clear. Things that we've been saying for three or four years were not just narrative, but were visible in every way you cut and looked at the business. And so our focus was really on getting quality investors, wasn't just about the color of money, it was about who'd we want on the journey with us. Which invests that you not have, the e -bmost like to have?

42:22So we're at the cusp of, in the next round, whenever we do, it will get the big institutional investors. So right now we have a few, we have GIC, and others who are institutional investors, but I think our journey looking ahead is not VC names. This is our Ontario Teachers Fund. That's a CPIB. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have a very fun round, which is... What? That was... Your face is like, ah, fuck. Because you have this... Let me drop my hands and bleed and let's go... Let's get into it. So this is round, this is not for me. This is purely from your friends. Okay. Okay, so we're going to do this new round.

42:59So I don't know the questions here, but I get given them in these cards. Okay, you ready for this? Which current product would you close down if you could and why? We did an energy switching, it's probably the best example of it, that we already closed down. Nothing else today. Who is your least favorite investor on the cap table? You really want to give me the kid myself. These are your friends, this isn't me. This is genuine, this is your existing cap table who suggested this. Well, let's have some fun at Anu's expense. Oh. Oh. Okay. She's never going to be true. She's the most favorite. She's the reason I'm here at Monza actually.

43:39Really? Yeah. She was actually first connected with Tom and Jonas. Wow. What do you believe that most around you just believe? So, you know, when you're building a business with as much ambition as we are, there's always naysayers, right? So the journey of people just believing in the early days of Monza was, oh, this company's never going to make it, right? We just have to look for it easy way to sell the company and get out. Then they would be things like always gonna be a great and cool app But like really be like like a few million customers and that's it Then it was or you have customers, but you never make money or you have revenues will never make profits and so on and so on and so forth And it's been fun proving each of those naysayers wrong So even now when I say to you that we're when I look ahead I think globally they would be a handful of companies only in the next decade that will truly be doing this business at scale and and managing people's money, transforming that relationship that customers are money have with each other.

44:28And on the back of that, build businesses with extraordinary economics and growth. And we're playing to be one of them. Saying that out to you, there's going to be people that will naysay about lots of bits of that. It's going to be fun to prove that set of them wrong as well. No, I agree there. And I think the composition of global banking changes entirely from the regional players doing it to five global. Yes. What's the hardest element of being CEO of Monzo? And you can't say time. No. I could, but I think that trope about it being a lonely job is real. I'm surrounded by the best people. I have an amazing village and yet I think any CEO role has an element of loneliness in it.

45:05Why don't I have nighttime bed as well? So why is he a therapist? What would you do if you knew you could not fail? I'd aim to build a global Fintech company that would be extraordinarily mission oriented and a generational company that is not just amazing for customers, amazing for the economics of it, but also amazing for its employees. I actually had this quite the other day and I thought it was amazing. It was the heaviest things in life and not iron or gold, but unmade decisions. What one would be yours? So this is not one that weighs on me or anything, but it's obviously one that I think about and I'm learning about more and more, is the IPO decision.

45:41It's an unmade decision, timing, location, all of it. And so we know we have to make it at some point. It's not one that weighs on me, but it does require that we think diligently about it in the coming months and years. What's your favorite consumer brand? And why? Klee Shade, but Real, Apple. What? Because it's magical design meets magical functionality, meets like extraordinary business at scale, the most valuable company in the world. And still a brand that inspires intimacy and trust with everyone. And you ask me about Apple, watch coming in. I'm in that ecosystem and I love being in that ecosystem.

46:16It connects across my life to the whole point about an operating system. It's it's does in the background so much for me in terms of protecting my data and making me feel like I can trust them. Yeah, all of that comes together there. What concerns you most in the world today? Judgment without kindness, opinions without curiosity. Do you think we are too opinionated without curiosity? As a world I think we are. It's become easier to shout out an opinion and harder to say, tell me more, learn more. What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you joined Monze? That would take us two years to get a really good coffee machine in the office.

46:50I would have just brought my own early on. Also, like you were in SF, you're a family, no? I do. Yeah, you were in SF with a family. It's COVID when you take this job. I mean, it says... And I'm working with a set of... What did your wife say respectfully? She thought I was crazy. You know she wasn't sure which of the bigger question to ask me why I was doing it or how I was doing it Because I would start my day at two or three every morning which is already 10 o 'clock or 11 o 'clock in the morning here in London Did it fail now totally felt nuts? Yeah, I mean and you kind of love did it the same time, you know I had this thing that I would joke With the team and with everybody at the time this idea of you know what type one fun and type two fun are So type one fun is when you're having fun in the moment right great concert great party get whatever type two fun is is like that camping trip gone bad, which you know is gonna be an amazing story later, and you know it's gonna be fun when you look back at it and recount it to yourself, and you remember that you lived through it and all of the crazy that happened.

47:47So, yeah, every day was some combination of type 1, fun and type 2, fun. Every single day, it keeps score of how many face punches did we get today, how many body blows did we get today? Because when you're in existential time for a company, there's all of that happening all the time. How do you deal with the body, please? All the face plays, but like, But quite literally the way I said, like the Society of Type 1 Fund, Type 2 Fund for me would be a joke about it and say, oh, that's definitely going in the book. That's going to make a great story, right? It feels like shit right now. But you know, you abstract yourself out of that moment and actually look at it with a hindsight.

48:19What's the best story of Type 2 Fund? Oh dear God, there's so many, you know, an investor that I would have spent months working on in 2020 and they're that close and I know that it's going to be pivotal for us and it changes our story because on the back of that I will be able to raise more capital and they don't pull the trigger and that would be just like And it's all it and it always feels personal. It is personal So yeah, no no dirt with those in any capital race, especially if it's not type to fun I mean that in the nice way. There's no fun about that. I've been rejected many times to for fun It's like but they but if I but yeah I'm not not for public wrecked but not for public record but many of those are great stories we actually recount and tell ourselves, remember that and then my team will say to me like, you should never have gotten out of bed for that call, right?

49:07You should never have gotten out of bed for that size of check. And I beg you, the question would be what would I get into bed for, not what I get out of bed for even, right? Because you just have to do what you have to do. So no event in isolation may feel like that, but that phase feels like type 2 for it. That phase of you know, the whole world's sort of crashing around you. There's not many believers. And yet you have this conviction that you're going to build this thing out with this amazing team with you. And as I was saying earlier, you sort of see through the storm. It's an extraordinary privilege to have an experience like that.

49:36Monserv is always kind of a nice culture, but like a world -life balance culture. Do you buy that? So, I mean, here's the thing, there's a false binary in what you're saying, right? Because there's this belief that a values -oriented culture can't also be a high -embeish and high -growth culture. And I actually don't, I reject that binary, because I think, Well, no, I've used specific value that rejects that, which is the life value rejects that. It's a but work life is a part of that then overall value system because ultimately I believe that if you hire amazing people put them into a culture which really values them as an inclusive culture, people work incredibly hard against that mission and it's a lot of things would add up to this culture where you care about customers not because they're a number not because they're an R -POO not because because they're sort of stepping stone or vanity metric, but because they say, okay, let's build it right.

50:33And I think if you get that magic right as a company and as a team, the outcomes of that are the quality of the business that we're building. I mean, the proof points are here. Right, if I was saying this to you four years ago, you'd have been right to be even more skeptical and say like, what the hell, they're never gonna happen. Right, but look at where we are now. 4C2 at billion and profitable. Yeah, you proud of yourself. I'm proud of the team. I inherited some amazing people that I've got to partner with you know, Jonas Coffan was stayed on a CTO. Sujata, the CEO who joined us right after I'd started.

51:05And all of the amazing people that we've hired since then, and the amazing original mononauts that are still here building out the dream, I'm insanely proud of all of us. The odds were decked against us. The naysayers were having a field day. And it's amazing to actually build out what we've built. How has the way that you lead changed in four years? Yeah, a lot feel like it feels to me like it has not changed. The size of my ambition for what we think one's a will be has not changed. If anything, it's only been amplified. At each point of inflection in the business, what we have done as a team has bent the curve upwards.

51:38Like this whole building hate visions. Because if you stick to a vision, you kind of put this artificial grass ceiling on yourself and you kind of downward -flect the curve of what it could be. And actually, when you turn the next page, you're like, whoa, stocks is that? I wouldn't have guessed that. So that's it, you have to have a really clear sense of scale of ambition, you have to have a really clear sense of the product vision that you want to build out, but on the journey to getting there, right, you hope like hell that you only inflect to raising the ambition. It's like rock climbing, right?

52:09You always focus on the next ledge, right? You know that you want to get to that summit, but the focus on the next thing and the next thing, that's exhilarating, right? It's fun to take stock for a minute and see how far you've come, but really what you're thinking about is the next thing. Yeah. Final one for you. What question have I not asked or are you never asked that I feel really guilty for this show, did you? I'm so sorry. DS, tell me a song or a track you'd recommend I listen to now. I wish people asked me that more often. I always have music playing in my head since I always attract them, but it's sort of looking...

52:45What's your favorite track? If I put on a track that is the one track that's going to E dancing. What track is it? I've never asked that question in any time. So I'm a cheap date with dancing. You could play like 500 different tracks and you wouldn't have to convince me to get on the floor. Then talent is not correlated with desire to be on the floor. With enthusiasm. So that's a low bar. I don't think there's a one track. You could play even your 500 tracks. I would do it for me. But different question is, if there's a There's a few, but I guess what I'm going to go with is Eddie Vedder, where Pearl Jam, he did this insane collaboration in the 90s with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

53:30You know, Nusrat is. Nusrat is a Pakistani Sufi music singer, probably one of the best musicians of the 20th century. Pearl Jam, Eddie Vedder, Granger Ocker from Seattle, and Sufi Kavali singer, Nusrat collaborated on this album, which was a soundtrack of the movie Deadman Walking. And there's a bunch of tracks in that which are amazing. The face of love, the long road are both insanely beautiful tracks that never feel tough lift me. I'm really sorry. I'm going to make you listen to this after this. No, no, you can. I'll listen after this. You've been amazingly patient and kind. Thank you for putting up with my pressing questions and I really appreciate it.

54:11Thank you very much for having me, you're happy. Now let's go have a laugh. That show was so much fun to do with T .S. in -person in the studio if you want to check it out you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC That's 2 -0 VC on YouTube. But before we leave you today, I'm soon most started with one simple idea The tools you need to grow your business shouldn't put you out of business That's why they work directly with developers to get exclusive discounts of 80 to 90 % 80 to 90 % off software saving entrepreneurs over half a billion dollars since 2010 Some of the biggest names in tech like MailChimp, Zapier and Dropbox got their start on AppSumo and with a rotating selection of hundreds of tools, you'll find all the software you need to make your life easier in 2025.

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56:06As always, we so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible 20VC on Monday with Nebiel Hyatt at Spot Capital.