20VC: Postmates Founder Basti Lehmann on How the Uber Deal Went Down and How a $2.65BN Deal Turned into $5BN, Why Great VCs Add No Value and VC Value Add is BS Marketing & Why The Biggest Companies in History Will be Born Today and Replace Incumbents

25:42That was the extent of the fundraise. So who did the price? Who did the negotiation? Like, how does that work? We didn't negotiate on the terms much. We just discussed what we believe to be reasonable for a cold start series A at a price that is not too high. And that's it really. What did you have in terms of company at that point? Three co -founders, a problem space that we've been looking at. Did you worry that it was too much too soon? One of the challenges is it's too easy to raise money and then you have the luxury of not being thrifty, being able to spend on whatever you want, were you concerned about having too much too soon?

26:15Yeah, I still am, but only to the extent that I'm concerned about any of these things up to the point where I know that the new company is a success, right? So I don't think there's any set of circumstances that will necessarily dictate that outcome. If you have too little, you're worried that maybe you should have raised more. If you raise money, you maybe worry that you have too much and do you detect complacency somewhere? We will see. It's always one way a lot of people say, oh, raise whatever you can and you just put it in a separate bank account and it rainy day and I always find founders spend rainy day finds when it's not raining.

26:53We sort of raised an amount that would allow us to do three or four startups in one. If you think about it. Something that Mark and I often talk about is if you run a company, you want to test a set of hypotheses. That's your job as a CEO, right? And you want to run down that list. And if you find that as some of them work, you sort of want an increased of velocity and really get to the point where you know if this thing works or not. And I think the idea behind TipTub is that we like the space, but we will explore it to the extent that if we believe that we have a tiger by the tail and that we see this thing moving in that direction that we like, we will continue testing hypotheses, or we will move to a different space.

27:31And that would be, there would be no problem. And not for the team, not for myself, and I don't think for anybody who invested. The idea is that that will figure something out. Where is the conviction bar on where you are with tip top? Is it like 50 % proven, 30%, 70%, it's a great question. It's a very good idea. We're very convinced of that. It is a very slick product. We're very convinced of that. We are trying to understand the market size and the impact that we can have with our energy. We're not sure where that is yet. How do you determine when to cut something and move on? Is there a defining metric?

28:07If we don't have X number of users by X day, we kill it. You can do it that way. And I'm sure there are people that are like that. Who do I know who's extremely smart and would run a company and you like this Patrick and John Collison. I think they're like the perfect example. I'm sure they have a metric. I admire them and we're very fortunate to call them friends. The most important thing to realize is that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We tend to take everything way too seriously. Like, oh, if I fail, the world will think nobody cares. It takes a minute for everybody to get over it, right?

28:42So something else will happen. Elon will tweet something and that's what we care about. The minute after somebody just thought about you, so it really doesn't matter. Like, there is no right or wrong way, there is nobody who knows the master plan, and it really does not matter. I find it incredibly reassuring to remember that you are not nearly as important as you think you are. But nobody is, right? That's the thing. Nothing is. Can I ask you, I think one challenging or interesting element is financial position changes with your second company if the first was successful. You know, you no longer need it financially to work.

29:18How does starting a company rich change your mindset, approach, ambition, the second time around? Well, that is a fair question. I had very little when I started Postmates and we put it all on that thing, right? And we felt like we had to push that little carriage up for up the mountain for 10 years, right? And at any moment, there was not a moment in time when we were convinced that that we've made it. But we had the ultimate energy because we felt that this is what had to had to get done. But at least 50 % of that was also a chip that we had on our shoulder, that we wanted to prove that we can do this.

29:53And that is something that all the money in the world can't really compensate for. That's why people strive for greatness. That's why people strive to do certain things because there is a desire to do something. But how does starting a company the second time differ when you're starting a rich. Well, I don't need a salary, so I don't pay myself a salary. That sort of comes in handy. Are you more courageous in the bets that you take because you're not worried about the downside? Are you more fast moving? I think we as a company enough have been very focused to not have any sort of external things influence our decision making.

30:28We try to be very humble, we try to be nimble, we try to move very fast, we try to write a lot of code, assess problems, we try to do that without the assumption that we're better off because of anything that happened before. I'm sorry for jumping around. When the money does land, does it land in one go? Do you get like, what I mean is there? So you just get like an notification like here. It's like, you know, $X million and you're like, wow, that's great. What does it come in drip feeds? How long does it take? Like just how does it work? What's really interesting is that you think it's this moment, but the whole thing almost takes a year.

31:01You sign a deal and then of course, you know, DOJ, in our case, the DOJ had a few questions and they submitted a request and we had to answer that. Then you get the go and then the deal closes and then there's a company called ShareWorks that deals with the transition of shares between two parties and they take custody. You get access to it and then there's a clawback. In our case, there was no clawback, I believe company -wide clawback, but we just had a small amount of shares that did vest after like three months or something. So, but yeah, at some point your bank called to you and says like, yeah, we got your shares.

31:41Do you want to see your bank account? I guess that's what they ask you in. How did you feel in that moment? The bizarre thing is that you prepare for that moment for a year, right? It's not like winning the lottery and you're like, and there it is, right? It's sort of like we knew we had sold the company a year earlier. In your mind, you probably go over that moment then many times, right? But I was so focused at that moment in time was the transition of the company, right? So you have to understand up until the Department of Justice cleared the thing. There was a fair chance that this would have not been possible.

32:12There was no moment in time when we celebrated after we signed the paper because we had to run the company as a standalone company for, believe eight, eight, nine months. So we had to hit our quarterly goals. We did not want it to have a scenario where we lose market share because now we're thinking that we're selling the company So you run these things as very separate businesses. It's very anti -climatic I would say I wish there would have been a moment and on top of that it was COVID So the one thing that I'm extremely sad about is that I did not ever get to celebrate with our 2 ,000 employees at a party in a room and have a blast there was a very strange feeling Everyone walked away sort of in with masks and you know five feet distant a very strange end to like a 10 -year church -like community and being in the office for 18 hours most days including the weekends like it was very strange But I'm sure your wife must have been thrown in the cash landed I do have to ask as we said you're very vocal about venture investors as a venture investor I agree with some and disagree with others You said before that 99 % of VCs are idiots.

33:24Fastie. How do you find the 1 % that are not, and do you really think that? I would probably today say that 99 % are sheep. Why do you think that's sheep? That's probably enough to be somewhat successful. There is a mass sort of thinking, and it's very self -informed, and there's very few people that understand where things should go, and where the opportunities lie and there is the majority of all people are just echo chambers of whatever that is and and there is a great desire in most VCs that I know to not bump in, bump around the edges too much and just do that thing and just you know follow that path.

34:09But whatever is the creed of the moment and whatever you want to discuss in regards to that, like, it's rough to be a little different and try to convince people. As I think it's the same with LPs. I quite often will say to LPs, you know, you get paid for the courageous bets that you take, not the safe decisions that you make. I think it's very much the same in venture, by the way. This is a business of anomalies, and so I completely agree with you. I think one of the interesting elements is venture value ad. A lot of founders say, oh, I'm thinking about this VC or that VC because they bring this and this and this.

34:45How do you think about venture value add? And you've said before the best VC's in the world, a humble enough to realize that they're not going to change the outcome. How do you advise founders on venture value add? Well, first of all, I think that statement is completely correct. It is my fundamental belief. The greatest VC's that I have met are the people that know this. when the company was bought, when the deal got closed, I remember having coffee with Brian Singiman and we both lived in Noi Valley at the time. So, and I was curious, I'm like, hey, how is it being a VC? What's, how do you do it at Founders Fund?

35:19Do you think I could do it? And I think he said something, he said, I don't know if you can do it, but I don't think you can do it. And I don't think he would be good at it. And I'm like, I'm like, why do you think that? He's like, well, you care too much. Like, you're an operator. You wanna, you believe that you can change things and you can do that when you're running your company. When you're an investor, you have to realize that there's nothing you can do, it doesn't matter. So at Founders Fund, they obviously believe in this. Very deeply, we just saw this obviously with keys leaving there and being somewhere else.

35:50The belief is that there is very little you can do to actually move the needle, other than writing the check. And then in the best case, you stay out of the way, and that's why they believe that board seeds are, you know, all the downside and very little upside. All of it is rooted in this belief that why would you be the guy that knows best how to do something and push these founders to do a certain thing? I believe the best VCs in the world believe that. I do not believe that Mark loses a sleepless night over what I'm working on. I believe that he may not even care. And that is totally okay with me because that is a job of the people running the company.

36:30And the investments that I have made When I give someone a check, then I try to stay out of it because I think Brian Shingerman is also one of the most intelligent people I know and I think he he's right. I think value add is a great marketing tool that the CES have discovered that if they use it They can attract talent they can attract LPs and by doing that they also Increase their own value in the chain of how money flows. That's mostly what it is You said another thing, final one on fundraising, but you said when you feel like you have to convince someone to really work hard on your space or to convince someone, walk away.

37:12Why is that? Why is having to educate your investor about thing? I'm a little jaded here, but one is allowed to be jaded or influenced by one own experience, even though I try to separate these things a lot. I do believe that there's unlimited amount of capital out there and I believe that it is easier and it's better worth your time by focusing on the people that initially believe in that, then trying to ride two or three rounds with the same VC firm and spend two hours going into unit economics where the outcome of any of these meetings will evidently be that they write down the unit economics neatly and then invest in your competitor.

37:46So it is very important to understand when a VC is trying to understand your business or when a VC is trying to understand your business to the extent of also another business at the same time. So oftentimes when you spend a lot of time and you feel like every meeting you have to, you have to really dig incredibly deep. Again, if you are a VC that needs that much conviction, regardless of the check size, already a red flag. And I find it will only get worse from that. It will only get worse because Goodluck was the next board meeting and the subsequent board meeting and not hitting a number and losing a percent market share.

38:25We had all types of investors in the company. It's not fun. Did you enjoy board meetings? I was not really good at first at running board meetings. I grew up running this company and I don't mean like in the sense of from a from a young buck to like a teenager, but I think as a business man When when I started the company versus 11 years later, I grew up as a person and I obviously honed my skills So the first couple of board meetings I think were I didn't had the headspace to even think about the board really So I was I was so focused into the daily operations of the company It was hard for me to have even predictions or sort of do even focus on explaining things to someone else And after a while when we got external investors that were not just Scott Bannister who was the first on the board and Brian sort of I had to learn that part of that ultimately is also to align the board and to make sure that the that it's not just in your head but that you communicate it to the board.

39:24But I found to be a very good strategy is to actually have the board meeting and non -board meeting and do a dinner the night before with a presentation sent out a week but at least a few days ahead of time. At the board dinner you discuss any sort of tension that there may be hitting your numbers or beating them or fundraising or updates or whatever it is competition so that you can then have a board meeting that is very short, very focused on just a few things that people commented on in the week leading up to the board meeting with the board deck that you provided and it also gives everybody this feeling that oh we just set together last night right so a lot of anxiety is out of the room you know people got to be used to the quirks again that they may have forgotten about because you know it's sort of people are I love people they're all different right that that worked very well for me towards the end I love that and I really like that separation between the board dinner and the actual board meeting and actually segmenting the content in that way I do have to go for some hot taste Bastie it'd be wrong for me not to and you know as you said VCs is sheep what can I be why why don't we do about AI and you teased me with having some controversial hot takes but you didn't actually go into them.

40:41And so you said inference computers, and that was it. What do you all take on inference computers? I think there were three sort of areas that I've wrote down. I think personal AI is another one. Cost of Al Alams. Yeah, great. I think that obviously AI or machine learning has opened this great new paradigm and way of thinking and honestly has given tech a much needed boost and enthusiasm, which I think is fantastic. I believe that one of the overlooked areas of the current state of AI and the large language models that we're using is that they're still very expensive. They're dramatically more expensive than a Google search.

41:19And as a result of that, we don't really have any great killer apps beyond the chatbot. And anything you build on LLM is very expensive because the compute is very expensive. And obviously there's even on the compute that's available a shortage of that compute. right? So now most of that goes into training these models, which is done in the cloud and which is done on large GPUs and it's a fantastic use case for that. When it comes to AI and personal AI, we may be at a moment in time where there is there is an opportunity for a new computer and new type of computer that we may see in every home.

41:52A computer that runs your own personal AI on a chip that does not have to be as powerful as the most powerful Nvidia chips. As a matter of fact, it could be a chip just designed for inference and just designed for for doing that very specific work And that computer is not a computer was a screen It won't be a computer that you sort of even necessarily interact with but it it will be a piece that other devices could Interact with and that powers a large language model if you want to hopefully an open source one and that will behave like a platform That has your personal weights your personal preferences that is connected to the world and the way that you want to.

42:31Why would you need a computer separate in the home for that? Surely the preference is the data would be stored in a cloud provider very much like having an open AI account that has your personalizations and preferences baked into that. No, actually not. For two reasons. First of all, you want the inference to happen as closest to the source of data as possible. And I like to argue that once a model is trained, then you get all the signals from your house, from your life, And in that moment is actually when inference is the most powerful you if you have data in the cloud and you need to Computeing on that data sure, but not if it's data that is maybe to do around your home, right?

43:08So inference is very powerful the closer it is to the source of data I mean given that if you think about a personal assistant the personal assistant needs a lot of information about you and inputs That's why you would see that at home It also is the only way right now to do it cost effectively If you have personalized weights, if you have personalized numbers, your LLM in the cloud will cost a lot of money and it can't even do things real time right now for you. Because of the cost, you can run it at home and the only cost is your electricity. That's another reason. I talked to a few founders about this over the last couple of weeks.

43:40A lot of folks are convinced that this is sort of when you had these huge timeshare mainframe and you had to go into them and you have to pay per minute and you have to pay per use and the thing came back and then Apple came and the Apple won and you had a board that you can hack against at home and that allowed you to do your own thing. So I may be wrong but I think there is something here. Is Apple not best placed if you think about being closest to the source as being fundamental? Is Apple's monopoly on hardware and phone usage and device, not putting them best place to run these models locally on device?

44:14Yeah, a couple of more hot takes that most people will not agree with and I'm happy to be wrong. I think the phone is dead. That's the first problem that will happen very soon I believe that AI happened too fast and Apple is caught in sort of the inventors dilemma here I'm sure that they could eventually put an additional chip in an iPhone that dusts inference and allows you to run These models more efficiently, but I doubt that it will be interesting enough for the group of people that I have in mind and Want to tinker with with the technology. So why is the phone dead? I think it had a good run man, but I think we have to call it.

44:50We have to call it what it is. Look at us. What replace is there? I mean, ultimately, we will find a way to use implants to communicate or devices that are smaller. But I think we will see a world where people go to an operating system for LLMs, maybe a voice operating system. I think there is many ways. That device may have not been invented yet, and it may take obviously longer. You know, landlines are still around. So when I call it dad, I don't call it dad in the sense of we won't use it anymore But I think it has reached the peak of its importance in people's lives. Are you long or short on the vision?

45:25Prior on the vision as it is the how it is today short because I think it's a product in search of a market It may have a fantastic application in science and in medicine to a less degree in media I think it is just a product that doesn't bring us together. Regardless of all its neat technology and the fake eyes and all of these things. You know what? I think Apple knows this obviously, but they're have incredible people working for them. The hardware that would change would just be in recognizable different from your regular reading glasses. and it would have unlimited battery life, overlay of information, anything that you can imagine in like a very subtle way.

46:09That would, I think it would be a great tool. Why do the benefits occur more to startups or more to incumbents in the next wave of AI? So in almost everything that we've seen, I think it is incumbents. I don't think that's too contrarian because it just makes a lot of sense, right? But there will be companies born today that will be larger in the field of AI than the companies that are the largest companies that we have today and they will start as toys and they will start as something that is probably overlooked and something that is not most applicable and something that is not most obvious.

46:49That's my prediction. Quick debate with you, but we've never had incumbents who have such data advantages that these incumbents have, and we've never had incumbents who throw off 350 million a day in free cashflow like Microsoft does, combined with the data advantage. If these incumbents are not too strong to use up. Blackberry at some point owned the entire smartphone market, GrubHub ran pretty much all food delivery in the United States. Those are weak examples, you can do better than that Bastie. Come on, like they had BBM as a network retention mechanism maybe, but I mean the market itself was pretty small, their market cap never exceeded a huge amount, their free cash flow was never a monstrous amount, GrubHub was not ever global, not even comparable.

47:33What's your point? Is this incumbent set, not more dominant than ever before, and actually we're in a very different world of startup versus incumbent? I still don't buy it. I think in retrospect it always looks like this. Ten years ago Apple didn't produce their own chips. Everything looks like that. At some point There is a market that looks penetrated. A thing that can't happen. At the same time. Look, it this is how it starts, dude It always starts like this. The things start to fall apart from the inside. Google already can't launch an AI Without the original founders coming back and having meetings with people with t -shirts of boobs sitting in a room somewhere in San Francisco.

48:14This is Google that you're talking about. And they shed the bad so hard. They literally just went from like the most respected company in the world to law things stock in a matter of month. So I just don't buy it and look, this is this is a marathon. This is not just a sprint, but the CREX start to show on the inside. The Vision Pro and effort inside the company that was herculean, I was told, where everybody was involved where people had to take meetings they didn't want to know, where two teams of hundreds of people were pitted off against each other to get that thing onto the market. You know it fails.

48:49Dude, this will be the first product for Apple where they have more returns than they have on any other metric. You can plot the graph and since Steve Jobs came back, this is probably the first thing that is a turd. So this stuff starts to happen from the inside. It's not only that there is smart kids coming along and they're doing something, but it's a combination of both. And that I fund them into believing at some point the people that did whatever made that company great and even their direct reports and the people that believed that at some point that either shifts moves away and then it starts to feel a little loose on the edges and when it starts to feel loose is exactly when there is opportunity for someone else.

49:29And sure you can buy yourself out of this and you can M &A your way into whatever you want but it can happen. And then it won't happen overnight. And it will look like a toy at first, whatever it is will be ridiculed, then people try to catch up. If they're lucky they can buy someone, but every once in a while, there is a company that rises and becomes extremely, extremely big, even though the set of circumstances seem very unlikely. Dude, I love it. Question, one company that seems to have risen obviously above any others open AI. Do you think foundational models get commoditized? And would you be a buyer of open AI at 90 billion?

50:06It's a fantastic research company is how I would describe open AI I think it remains to be seen if they can launch Extremely successful products other than chat GPT It will be a dominant player and look what they did by the way coming out of nowhere Yet working on it for seven years, right? You didn't catch up with them every week to get the status on what they were working on for the last six or seven years And suddenly there's there's one product and off you go So of course they're important. I think they're a great player that is now inspiring a lot of founders and entrepreneurs to do great things and have the Audacity to to to sort of dream in a direction that for the longest time mostly because it was a market where if you worked in ML You got a nice salary at Google but the expectations was just that you please don't bother anyone too much, right?

50:54So and now suddenly you're like you're in demand people actually listen to you They believe that these things can work, you know everybody wants to know what a token is, they will be a big player, I think they will be a very large company, but there's other companies that are personally more excited about so. Which ones are they? Well, I don't know, I have my list here, I have certain names, I divide companies into the big stuff, useful and noise, and most of it is noise obviously, right? That's just like someone who comes along and says like, we're developing a brain for robots, but I think what looks really good is figure, I think the latest robots that we've seen from them, they're they're remarkable.

51:30I think they work with OpenAI. That's an OpenAI investment. I think that you see a lot of really remarkable companies coming out working with smaller models, more dedicated models, models that maybe a lot more trained for a specific purpose than sort of that giant call center that can do anything. But other than AI, I'm telling you space, nuclear, count me in. Any startups that have had a huge publicity and you're like, I didn't get it. A lot of them. But that's okay. Technology is the absolute greatest thing. Faster, more enthusiastic into the technological future. That's what I believe in. Final one.

52:06You mentioned time scales actually taking longer. I am just intrigued. You said to me before and you said sorry on Twitter before, not developing AI fast enough is what will kill us, not the other way around. What did you mean by that? We are already facing and we will continue to face dramatic challenges obviously as a country but also as people. And on this planet, moving to a new planet, if we want to be multi -species, I think the challenges ahead of us, we need to develop all the technology we can to solve them, to engineer ourselves out of global warming, to make decisions based on data and guidance that we can get from better software, getting to Mars.

52:46All of that, I think it's essential that we make great strides in AI. The risk is not that there will be an evil AI that will kill us. I think the risk will be that by not becoming more intelligent and using these intelligent tools will become extinct. Bold statements, I'm loving this. Glad we did that as a quickfire on AI round. Bassy, that's fantastic. I want to do a quickfire round more broadly, so I ping you with a statement, you give me your thoughts. Does that sound okay? Yes. What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months? Again, technology. I imagine it before. I think we were in a little bit of a slump, therefore, while it seemed like everybody shut of the engines and we had to be very apologetic and it was sort of now I think we're so back and I think it's great because I'm saying it again like accelerate into the technological future as fast and as enthusiastic as we can.

53:36What are you most concerned about in the world today? What am I most concerned about? United. Going on a united airplane. Oh wow. I thought you were I'll be very concerned about that. Well, you know, life is good then. You could get a PJ Bastie. That's the only thing. Single biggest way VCs and founders are misaligned. Expectations. Why expectations? VCs are always just one more. No, it's expectations more in the sense when and sort of how and I think there's a lot of friction there in general. What's the most lavish purchase you've made? Having two kits. What's the biggest piece of BS advice that you hear most often?

54:18The first X dollar in revenue is always the hardest. or something like that. There is a version of that coming out of everybody I've ever met. So yeah. Was the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? You know, I think my co -founder, Sean Place, is one of the greatest humans that I know, and I am so thankful for his friendship, because what he has done for the entire time, while I was to CEO and rent the company and did a lot of the front -off the office work, and we often banked hats, and I reserved the right to have the final decision on a lot of things. That guy has just been the greatest supporter you can imagine every day and he showed up every day And he said be let's do it and he drove us to the fundraisings I think he has given 10 years of his life in something that I made him believe in and so I think just That in itself is is is a remarkable gift other than Dara which CEO do you most respect to me?

55:13Oh, man I can only name one because if you if you know name another one then it's a Ken of warms, right other than Dara I believe that the world would be a better place if we had more founder CEOs And I hope that the founder CEOs that we have that they stay CEOs for the long time Patrick at Stripe Zacate plate max at a firm. These are all just remarkable Remarkable people that run their company so well and that had to fight battles and and and overcome All sorts of challenges. Whatever they are. I mean in ZX place you we were bought the acquisition good and go through, you have to go back and build again.

55:51If these guys are ever, well, Patrick and that case in Zach, if they run their companies publicly, books will be written about their leadership style. I'm certain of that. Final one, 2034. Why do you want to be that? And why is Bastion 2034? Well, realistically, probably at some sort of sport event with my kids, whatever they play is probably where I will be, right? So I have two of them, maybe ballet or whatever they pick up my oldest one like basketball so that's probably what I will do. Bastie, I wanted to do this for a long time. I so appreciate you putting up with the prying. You've been fantastic so thank you for joining me.

56:29Well I had a great time. It's so funny before that show Bastie said let's make this a really special one. I think he absolutely did that. That was such a fantastic discussion. If you want to see the full video you can check it out on YouTube by searching for 20VC but before we leave you today, one thing I hear from my listeners all the time is that marketing leaders are under more pressure than ever to deliver real business impact. You know, more conversions, lowering customer acquisition costs, and bringing in more revenue, but that's impossible when you're stuck with tools that don't move as fast as you do.

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