20VC: The Dubsmash Memo: Scaling to 43M Users in 10 Days, Why TikTok Was a Competitor Like Never Seen Before, Good vs Great Consumer Products and What Every Consumer Product Needs & The Future of Consumer Social with Suchit Dash

24:12Go to dustfash, find the sound, create a dance video, post it on Instagram, and then be able to see who hits the challenge the best. It was the smallest Just starting in Atlanta, Georgia, a few users started to use it in this way and it started to really locally grow. And we saw that behavior really early on and said, there's something here of a seed of an IT. And mind you, we had millions of still installations and users in international markets, but that seed caused us to say, let's actually skate towards that. Let's build a product around that use case. That's kind of how we iterated on the next version of the Upsmash.

24:48What happens then? You tailor the product towards the net use case and you isolate all past product iterations Do you just cannibalize existing users? What do you do? Totally we kicked out we shut down markets We literally shut down markets in places like India or in other areas We completely tailor the product to this use case. We said hey dub smash is now a dance challenge platform You now can create your own a chem you can actually post it all on dub smash you can now create your own audio samples. We started to see this incredible marketplace of audio producers actually uploading audio beats.

25:22Dancers started to take those and create dance challenges, building followings. This was the earliest precursors and many of those started to become very famous actually. Dance challenges not only on TikTok but in other places. We started to see the earliest stages of like stars being born. We started to see rap songs starting to become actually viral on Spotify as a result of this. So this was something that we never had any idea that this was even happening. But by focusing it on it and building towards that use case, that's how we started to see kind of product market fit for the first time.

25:56What suggested product market fit? What was it about the retention? What were the D30 numbers? What was it that gave you that confidence? Totally. So the first iterations of dub smash as a lip sync product after 30 days, it was like out of 100 people, five hood sticker around with this new version out of 100 days, 30 to 35 and stick around, which was significantly better. Yeah, thirsty, D 30. Yeah. And after almost 12 months, we saw about 20 % of the user still sticking around, which is crazy to see what we start to see, which was very elusive in the consumer social space was the first time seeing a smile curve was that after those crazy viral moments in the United States, we started to see our numbers really, really decline.

26:38But for the first time after seeing this retention, we started to see that the numbers were growing back again. What you see in the charts is actually kind of a smile because the users are starting to come back at that same level that they were kind of in the very, very early. So if I was to listen to this, why is the smile such a beautiful growth for people? I think it's validation at the end of the day that all of this hard word, sweat and tears, that would be the thing that would motivate me, as to say we have finally created a retentive product. We're finally actually resonating with customers.

27:10It's really hard because everyone says you want to see the hockey stick growth, we saw it in the reverse direction for a very long time. And that was challenging. And it was really hard in those moments when you see those numbers going down to get motivated. By being relentless, continue to focus on trying to find that product market fit and finally seeing the validation that it was working, it was a feeling like I'm not anything else. It was a very specific use case in quite specific communities. Yeah. You have a big product lessons from finding product market fit in that way with this community and this use case.

27:44We did. I mean, I think this community was the most savvy community I had ever encountered. And it goes back to the motivation squish. They were motivated because they wanted to become an entertain. and it started with many of them beginning the process of trying to actually earn revenue at a really early stage. So what we saw was a user with 10 ,000 followers would say, hey, I'll promote your account. Just hit me up on cash app for 50 bucks and I'll promote your account. But then we would see that behavior mimicked. So a user with 50 followers would say, pay me five dollars and I'll promote your account.

28:19The mimicry of actually influencing to customers was translating down whether you had 10 ,000 followers. or 50 followers. They were so motivated by really being that entertainer in earning cash that it was really we wanted to build tools to make that really possible. Do you feel that every news consumer platform has to create its own breed of creator whole of fame? So an example is the Domingos on TikTok, Mr Beast on YouTube for example, each platform has their own who rise through the ranks on that platform natively and that is why threads will not work. Yeah, it's a good question. What we found at DubSash was that was definitely the case.

29:02We were really careful though and we wanted to be very careful about the idea that the challenge with fundamentally influencer networks is it actually stifles CREACH. The problem that you see is that when you gain a huge follower of a database. You start to actually feel as though there's a moment where, when the largest follower of it starts to get so big, that unless you have a really great algorithm to give proper distribution for even the up -and -coming creators, you start to see CreatorBurn. I'm never going to get to 100 ,000 followers. I'm never going to get to a million followers. And so it's really important for platforms to actually create more of a democratic system in actually growing their user base.

29:43So for us, we were always careful about ever showing things like a leader. We're ever showing, hey, here are the top 10 creators on DevSmatch. We always wanted to make it feel like DevSmatch was successful, and everyone had a shot at being able to be famous. The social capital that comes from a leaderboard, a follow -up account, and that addictive way, it's where you derive value. It is if you're at the top, but it's not necessarily the case if you're not at it. So you're rewarding the top 10, or you're rewarding the top users, but you're not necessarily rewarding the newly onboarded users. Or, and I think the challenge here with through this was, on day one, if you're completely porting over the graph, it's very hard for someone to suddenly say, hey, now I'm gonna, I want to start from zero and become really large on threads.

30:29Because already the game is ripped to ultimately reward those who have already been successful on it. That's where it's challenging fundamentally in the setup of these networks is how you actually design those. That's where it gets really difficult. Are there any other massive designs for what you think in these networks? Yeah, I think founders don't spend enough time thinking about the structure of platforms as much as they should be, and even investors don't really as well. As an example, I think early days, the first versions of social networks were built around the address book and connecting friends to friends.

31:01The second versions were really around users to interests. TikTok was, you don't need to have a follower base, you can just connect to your interests and we're going to just design communities around those interests. I think there's still a ton of opportunity around how do you connect users to location? How do you connect users to conversations? How do you connect users to various other threaded graphs on the internet? And I think people, and I actually oftentimes products, take sometimes lazy approaches to say, well, we need people to connect. So let's just make sure to put in a Facebook connection in here or an address book connection in here and actually more thinking around how users can actually connect around a specific content type or a vector that has not been exploited is actually where there's likely opportunity.

31:48Do you think we have totally moved away from the social graph? Yeah, I think it's saturated. You said about location there. Everyone's first idea in consumer social is like, see your friends on a map. It's never worked. Why? What you're actually seeing with location have been fascinating with location trail very long time. I actually love the snap product around location there because I think it really actually connects. It's not necessarily your friends, but it's the UGC content that is posted across the snap map to actually see creation happening across all of the world. I think someone who's doing location actually really well is actually Google Maps.

32:22If you're actually starting to see what's happening is what they're doing is they're connecting users to a place and then actually allowing for reviews to actually become increasingly robust there. It is that user -to -place connection that I think is really, really valuable. I think what was happening is a lot of companies - Well, why is that so valuable, sorry? It's valuable because when you actually look at a place, what you're really looking for is you don't necessarily care about what your friends think about what this place was, and what their taste preferences are. You're actually looking for aggregation of data around whether the place was valuable or not.

32:56We see this with Reddit all the time. Reddit is a anonymous network. People actually weigh in and it's become so trusted because fundamentally the aggregation of the community and the community actually giving it weight on what is valuable and not is more trustworthy than necessarily what your friends think about something. I think Google Maps as an example and what they're doing is you're starting to see trusted guide trusted sources and the aggregation of their ratings is starting to become increasingly valuable. Rather than trying to be like, hey connect with your graph here and now we're going to recommend all of where your friends are going.

33:28They're actually taking the aggregation of what the community thinks and there's a lot more valuable data into. Do you think threads will be successful? I think as a V1 and what they saw from a viral product perspective was in growth. Getting users to download an app in 2023 is really tough. It's not like the App Store was in 2012 where people were actually browsing and trying to discover apps. That is a really, really tough thing to do. So I will just say that the team, I have a tremendous amount of respect for that team, and the team iterates until they will get it. And I think they will continue to take shots on goal and eventually likely find product or commit in some way, shape or form.

34:08It may not be to the billions of users, but likely they'll find audiences that will find it value. Going back to the dub smash story and speaking of the compasses we've just been discussing, take talk at the point now where we're going back to the story where you've got product market fit with this community with the dancing as a use of adi prop it's working take tone take take tone talk and starts to buy out the market and you saw growth full you saw downloads full what did you learn at this moment this was incredibly unique never before had we ever faced a competitor like this who bought market share we would tacitly maybe compete it against the American competitors like Snap and Instagram and others, but it was a game of retention in organic growth.

34:55That was the game. It was sort of like who had superior retention, who was able to drive organic downloads. No competitor had ever bought users at that scale. We for the first time saw a competitor taking a very unique orthogonal approach and we were a startup that had just raised $7 million. That was the cash in the bank. They were spending that in like a week, also leveraging Facebook's ad marketplace to get hyper -targeted at the demographic that they wanted to actually bring over, having the content tailored so that when they would arrive, the content was relevant to them. It was a playbook that we'd never seen before.

35:33Ultimately, we realized we either need to raise a massive arsenal and a gorge has to compete at this space or we need to partner with someone else. What do you think they did so well at last? And what do you think they could have done better? They were incredibly bold in the amount that they spent. And I think what they were great at was actually doing something that the American players I don't think saw coming. You leverage your ad targeting from these American products and actually build up a user base using that mechanism. Something that no one had done before. The ad targeting at this point in 2019 had gotten so granular, you could actually get to like a city level, a user demographic level, and TikTok leveraged all of that.

36:13And Facebook and Snap all benefited because they saw tons of money coming in in the form of revenue, but ultimately it was cannibalizing their user pace, which they started to realize in 2020 and started to realize we need to actually go after this category. Would TikTok strategy have been possible, Stey? If you have a watch out of cash, can you buy the growth that they did today? No, I think the targeting capabilities after what Apple has done has gotten reduced just dramatically, so I think it would be much tougher. But if you spend that much money, maybe it's possible. They did it at a scale, leveraging all of the revenues that they had gotten in China already via Dao -Win and Toteau and actually leverage that to really buy out the US market.

36:56Also they spent money in buying basically, which was an established user base and actually leveraging that to convert it into the TikTok product. How do you think about paying creators to come onboard in those early days? We saw our creators getting solicited by the imply of these competitors that created an arms race It created every company started to create a creator fund and so as a startup with minimal cash The question is sort of what do you do in that situation? So we opted to say hey, let's actually use this opportunity instead of raising a ton of money and trying to play in this game Let's actually go and partner with another company So we decide to partner with someone else That's a tough moment to come to.

37:35It's a tough realization to sell the baby so to speak which sounds awful. Sorry for that. What it has, especially given the fact that you're a parent that sounds even more abhorrent, but what is your biggest piece of advice to founders who are like, should I sell or should I keep going? I'll just say one thing that you really need to focus on selling, it's not for the faint of one. So you need to be 100 % committed in down to say we are selling the business. By co -founders and I, on the first week of January of 2020 said, we are going to sell the business. From that moment moving forward, we were really clear about this was the outcome that was going to happen for the company.

38:13I've seen founders sometimes say, you know, I'm considering it and hey, I'm starting to see some interest and it's like, is that really interest? Someone just reached out to you. Like, I think that's a mistake. It could be really distracting. So if you're going to do it and it can be done, you just have to be really focused on. I think the big question that I always ask is if you were to sell the company, what would you do next? And if what you would do next is start dub smash again, don't sell dub smash once. Totally agree. Totally agree. There's a couple of lessons that I think entrepreneurs sometimes forget about this.

38:46I think the first is like, M &E processes are very different than fundraising. They are actually much more emotional than really a fundraising process. and the reason why is because you're not just connecting on the terms of the deal, you're connecting at a value level, at a principal level, with your counterparty. You're really connecting and seeing, hey, is the person on the other side of the table actually going to fit into our culture? Do I align with them at a principal level? Are we philosophically going in the same direction? With the VC, you sort of do that, but you're not working in the same way, day in and day in and day in and I think that's really where For many processes, in my experience, I had to connect at the emotional level with any of the counterparties to even have a shot at it.

39:28The second thing, as I would say, is from a mindset perspective, you kind of have to go in to say, look, I'm going to be seating control. Ultimately, we are selling. They are the buyer at the end of the day, even in the selling process. And when people don't do that, they start trying to negotiate and optimize on things for the sake of negotiating. Very few companies are in the position of fielding multiple offers. Your goal is really to optimize to get enough and get it over the line. And I think oftentimes entrepreneurs forget that. In terms of transparency, I don't think you should be transparent with your team that you're selling.

40:00It's a massive emotional roller coaster. And the ups and downs of an M &A process are not for the faint of heart. I was sort of leading the charge on our M &A process, and even what I would communicate to the co -founders would be a little bit watered down. You need them so that you can all continue to motivate each other and their critical pieces for all of us working together on this, but still you would be up at night hoping that an email was read. You would be sending a text, not getting a respond and wondering in your mind what's going on is something wrong. All of your sort of like anxieties are elevated in this process.

40:35And so that's why it's not for the faint of heart. It requires a tremendous amount of focus to actually really get it over the line. I think it's really unfair to actually put your team through something like this. I know you went through a couple of, how do we say, outback? So to speak, with different requires. Tell me about the process with a couple of different requires. And what you learned from those different hits and misses. Openly, we went through sort of almost two to three failed processes until we actually found a successful process with Reddit. What I learned through the process is a couple of things.

41:12There's some obvious ones. With technology platform companies, you have to really connect with a product leader or the CEO. It's not really ever with the Corp Dev team or the business developing team. The second is it can be very isolating. You internalize this up and down, but you've got to stay calm and collected and knock it overly emotional in the process. The third is really term sheets and LOIs even from some of the largest companies in the world mean very little. I think oftentimes entrepreneurs can get really excited by it, but generating those is not very difficult for a large company to do.

41:44So they may say, pay, we rarely do this and we rarely give something like this out, but in actuality, the true process happens after the term sheet and the L .O .I. It's in the diligence. And the difficulty is you may have convinced someone, one person in the organization that this is a good idea. But once the diligence starts, you have many people around the table who are trying to say this is why it's a bad idea. That is a really tough process to go through because you have to do a lot of convincing to so many stakeholders around the table as to why this is a good idea and oftentimes are competing against internal projects that are going in the same direction.

42:24Saying this to your investor base, respectfully it's not what they signed up for. You know they signed up for a massive consumer social take home win and this is not that. Was it difficult to get them on board? It was, I think the one thing that we did right at Dub Smash was we were always honest with our investors. We told them whether we had it or we did it. When we got into the board meeting with Nico and Danny, we said, look, here's TikTok. Here's how much they're spending. This is a game where either we go and raise a hundred million dollar and eat a hundred million dollars and even with that, we're unsure if we can compete at this scale.

43:00It would be one thing if one American competitor were jumping in like just Instagram. But at this point, we learned it was Instagram jumping in, There was YouTube jumping in, there was Snap jumping in, and there was a slew of other startups trying to compete in the space. So we said, this is the moment that we think it's mostly likely and most beneficial for us to actually partner on because everyone is thinking about what their lip sync or TikTok strategy is in 2020. Three years before, no one woke up saying what's my lip sync strategy. There were so many moments in the Duff Sashroney that we likely would have shut down, but But the fact that we were still there in 2020, competing, growing, we were probably the best team on the market with the most institutional knowledge to actually be able to take on someone like a tick -tock.

43:44And that's why we became very proud. Do you think the US needs a tick -tock? I don't think really the US needs a tick -tock and I wouldn't even phrase it kind of really in that way. I wouldn't even get categorized as the US. I think what consumers fundamentally need and I think what is incredibly valuable is connecting outside of just their friend graph and connecting around interest. I read it I actually believe that it's a fundamentally better way where users don't leverage their real identities, they connect around communities, they conversate around the things that they're interested in, and I think there's incredible value in that.

44:16And you see a different type of conversation that is actually happening as a result of it. The copy of TikTok? No, I don't think that that's really unnecessary. with the benefit of hindsight is there anything you would have done differently with the acquisition process? It's hard for me to say because I think about it in a very binary way. Ultimately we were successful. The entire team moved over to Reddit. The entire team was working on Dub's Fash. All of us are really happy reddits in incredible culture. And so it was better than I could have ever imagined. And I think things happen for a reason.

44:50And so with hindsight, if anything, I wish I had found reddit earlier on the process. We went through a lot of pain in the early stages with maybe other parkers and I think that that was something that I wish would have happened sooner All of this requires a lot of mental stability You've said before your mindset is the most important aspect. What did you do right? What did you do wrong? I view this in kind of two ways There's the mindset of being an entrepreneur There's actually a mindset that mindset now as an acquired founder and now an executive at a company There's a bit of a different mindset as well Mindset as an entrepreneur, number one a lot of people talk about focus.

45:24We were always really focused on the key problems in making sure that we're trying to find product market fit. That was always the North Star. We never wavered from that. What that meant was it was very clarifying. We focused on making sure to conserve cash, our rate of the fancy office, reduce payroll down. We did everything for the purposes of trying to make sure we had enough money in the bank to keep going. The second was intellectual honesty. We told each other when things were going super well, we said we don't actually have it when things were on the grave We said we knew it wasn't happening.

45:55We just got to keep working even with the iterations of dub smash that started to see those 30 % D 30 retention numbers We said we knew we can still do better that intellectual honesty I think is so critical for founders because it actually clarifies the decision The third was and I think the other key one is stamina We stuck around and we persevered because we were in the space long enough By 2017 -2018, we could have shut down. We had probably 10 lives in this company. I mean, hell, we didn't even get into it, but we had a moment where there was a data breach in the company, and with 10 weeks of cash left, and we happened to find that we had insurance to actually save us.

46:32We figured out that we were able to negotiate a breakup fee with one of the acquires that kept us going otherwise we would have shut down. And mind you as an entrepreneur, the team never knew about any of this. You internalized it all yourself. And that is what is so tough and lonely about the journey is because you have to take it on, but that's the job. That's exactly what you have to do as an entrepreneur. Now on the other side, with Caching Bank at least had a large company like I read it, it's a little bit of a different mindset. You walk in and it's actually all about collaboration. Collaboration is critical.

47:03You can't walk in as an entrepreneur and say, I'm going to do this like you used to, whereas like, hey team, go rally around my thinking, you've got to gain alignment, You've got to work with other teams, and that collaborative mindset is critical to actually finding success at a larger company. And the second piece for being a successful executive is communication. Your words cascade across ranks. I think as an entrepreneur, you can kind of adjust your pitch on the fly. I talk to you one day, Harry, I talk to you Nico the next day, and based on your feedback, I can adjust what I'm saying. We hit the large company, get to that.

47:33You work with these people day in and day out, so you've got to be crisp and articulate in your communication, like you do. How did a journalist in a law school lead to the reddit acquisition? So interestingly enough, a journalist was able to snuff out that two acquires were actually coming in and thinking about acquiring the company. I denied it as much as I possibly could. And then really the next day I realized I really don't have any leads and I don't know. The pipeline is pretty dry right now. And so I called him back up and said, you know, I think there might be some other folks who might be sniffing around on the same story.

48:10That motivated the journalist to say, oh man, I gotta publish something. And so an article was written there and that was the first time that Reddit actually reached it. I love that. I do want to touch on one final aspect before we do a quick fire, which is obviously now with video such a cool part of your role with Reddit. I had to have a mid -instagram on the show and he says something very specific about video in terms of monetization. He said by his nature it's a challenging format because it puts a lot of pressure on the ads business because you can only serve as many ads in video or you can serve much fewer ads in videos you found in text.

48:43Do you think that's fair and how do you think about the future of video and monetization? Yeah, look, I think Adam is right in that that dynamic generally exists with feed oriented products. You know, I think about this at Reddit in a slightly different way. Look, our magic at Reddit is with our conversations. That is what Reddit is known for. If you think about your day to day and how you use Reddit, through conversation, people actually find information, they're entertained, they connect with one another to find community. Oftentimes, the largest user base oftentimes will find Reddit because they're querying something on Google.

49:18And they land on this on Reddit and they find really great answers. And oftentimes people are having robust discussions in conversations and then they go off and form their own community on Reddit. So really, that's the central piece. And one of the things that I've thought through is so far, all of these feed products have buried the conversations with a single icon. That has a small little comments icon and you click on that and that's how you kind of read it. And I think with new paradigms like video and others, how you can actually elevate the conversations and make it more conversation first is critical.

49:50This will require some rethinking and how we think about feed paradigms and feed products. But I think it's necessary for us as we evolve into kind of skating towards again what motivates customers. In terms of like the best product decision you've ever made, what do you think the best product decision you've ever made was, and what did you learn from it? The single best, probably product decision was pivoting the whole company of DubSmash towards the stance challenge platform. I think it was daring, it was bold, it was scary, but it was the right move. We wouldn't be where we are today, had we not made that decision.

50:21Had we delayed it, we would be out of cash. Really that was the best possible. I want to move into a quick fire so I say a short statement you give me your immediate thoughts does that sound okay? Oh, when do you listen to users when do you ignore them? I have a framework sort of listen to what they love monitor what they do acknowledge what they hate and own it if you is Facebook a copy machine consume a social no I think they're an execution machine. Do they have original ideas from time to time. What's take talks bigger strength today? I'll give you a cheeky answer probably a disregard for privacy and conventional rules Oh, she's one investor for your net -escompany and why them?

50:57That is tough. We had some amazing investors at Dub's Fash, but probably actually a knee -holmata from Eniac. Stuck with us through and through with the thickened thing with Dub's Fash was always a champion even in some of our darkest days. What in the product toolkit could you not live without? I've shared a few books. One book is execution, the disciplines of getting things done. It's a great manual or handbook on how to drive teams. Start with No, which is a great book on negotiations for the M &A process I literally scripted out every conversation we would have and kind of work through all the permutations.

51:29The last one is Wanting, which is a book about the teachings of our René Gerard about Pemetic Theory, for which it's great to understand the motivations we were talking about. And then the other piece is probably an audio piece which is a Hans Zimmer soundtrack. I mean, I'm obsessed with all things on Simmers. I love Hans Zimmer, that's so funny to hear. It's start with those also amazing. Final One for you, what's the most recent product strategy you've been most impressed by. This one, this one will be probably a little bit of a zag, United Airlines. Most people's expectations when they fly is their expectations are sky high and their tolerance for mistakes are incredibly low.

52:08And actually mistakes always happen in the airline space. What United has done over the past few years has actually really been at the forefront of any new iOS feature with kind of their live action bar, notifications, messaging, and actually has built a really robust tech stack to actually facilitate that. I recently went through this because I had a bag loss that I had united and I tried to go through their normal customer care of calling them and it was a nightmare. But then I used their text message service and got the bag back within 24 hours and color me impressed. I love this and I normally get open AI, so I'm like thrilled to have something totally different.

52:46The subject I've loved doing this, thank you for my meandering through the journey and consumer social as a world and this has been so much fun. Thanks, I appreciate it. Just to last me. I mean, wardenling credible story. If you want to see more from us behind the scenes, of course you can and you can see the full video on YouTube by searching for 20VC, but before we leave you today, we need to talk about Sona. Sona is an AI -powered learning and knowledge sharing platform. Think of it like ChatGPT for all your company's knowledge. Some integrate with all your company's apps in under 5 minutes and can search through every single file, doc, pull request, video and more in under 100 milliseconds.

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