20VC: Vlad Tenev on Robinhood's $85BN Resurgence | Tokenizing SpaceX & OpenAI | Building Nine Revenue Lines Over $100M | Why Crypto Will Be Robinhood's Biggest Revenue Line | Why Stablecoins Will Replace Banking Rails

26:06We do break it up into business lines. We consider that, but it's sort of a map of the world. What I really care about is the reality of how many customers do we get? How much money are they putting in the platform? Are we serving all of their financial needs? And I think you can slice and dice it by lots of different ways. If they're putting all their money into Robinhood, I think we're happy. In five years time, which do you think will be the biggest revenue generator? Crypto is interesting because right now crypto is sort of this like separate segment of the business. We look at it and the outside world perceives it as a different asset.

26:43How big is your crypto business going to be relative to say your options business or equities business? It's very much like this is a separate asset that you're trading. But what we're starting to see already is crypto is going to be this layer behind everything. Everything is going to be powered by crypto to some degree. What do you mean by that? Just so I understand. Well, I'll just give you an example. Robinhood Gold has a interest piece where you can earn interest on your cash. Well, as we get stable coin out, crypto will have that as well. You'll be able to earn interest on your stable coins and that'll be a significant business.

27:18And you might consider that part of crypto, but that's something that's akin to a savings account. Prediction markets over time, you see overseas things like Polymarket. That's a prediction markets business, but it's also powered by crypto. The joys of me is I have no ego. And so I'm not afraid to ask very stupid questions. I hang out with Jack Zhang from Airwallex, who I don't know if you know, but he's fucking brilliant. One of the most underappreciated founders. He's very negative on the future of stablecoins. How do you see the next three years of stablecoins? And would you share his negativity?

27:51I don't know if I would go that far. There's definitely use cases. I mean, I'll just give you an example. Robinhood uses stablecoins for our corporate purposes. So we have this use case where we trade a lot of crypto that requires settling with counterparties. I mean, if our customers buy a bunch of Bitcoin. We have counterparties that we have to send dollars to, and they send us the Bitcoin back. During market hours, Monday through Friday, everything works fine because we can settle intraday. We can wire them dollars. They send us the crypto to our wallets and everything's fine. What happens on a weekend where the banking rails are closed and something's happening in the crypto markets and we've got retail customers that want to buy billions of dollars of crypto.

28:38You have a difficult situation potentially because we can't move the money. So what happens is either you have to take counterparty risk, meaning you have to trust that one side will deliver the dollars eventually when they can and send them the crypto ahead of time, which is a tough one because counterparty risk multiplies if you have lots of counterparties. Or you have to have lines of credit, lines of credit with your counterparties that are expensive, or you have to pre-fund in the bank accounts that you have, which can be different. All the counterparties tend to have different bank accounts unless you force them to centralize.

29:15And so you have to pre-fund and plan for what could be an insane amount of volume. And that's very capital inefficient. I literally have goosebumps listening to these different options and shit. Yeah, it's not good options. And we had to deal with this in 2021. And our solution was to raise lots of capital and pre-fund and hope that it was enough. But now with stable coins, we can just send you the dollars over the weekend. They instantly get to our counterparties. They can send the crypto back. Problem solved. So that's a real use case. And that's led to us adopting it. So the 24-7 movement of dollars in real time is a real thing.

29:53And I don't think you can argue that outside of the US, particularly in developing countries, stable coins have become the easiest way to get access to dollars for retail. And I think that's a real thing. They basically obsoleted American Express travelers checks, which, you know, foreigners and countries with depreciating currencies would like stockpile these things to keep their money. Are you ready for a really unfair one? Let's see it. Of the nine products that do 100 million in revenue, if I forced you to shut one down today because of focus, which would you shut down? Instant withdrawals revenue.

30:28Yeah. So we make money from customers withdrawing money from Robinhood into their bank account instantly. It's a good business for us. How big a business is that? I want to say this is nine figures. I mean, we can check that, but I think that's one of them. But yeah, it's a big business. Our GM there is very proud of this business. And he hates when I say this, but I tell him, hey, if your business goes to zero, I would not be upset because that would mean nobody's withdrawing money from Robinhood. If it's just like everyone just keeps their money in Robinhood all the time, we feel pretty good.

31:00So one of the goals we have is remove all reasons why someone would want to move their money out to an external bank account. Great answer. It's like being in a job interview and being asked for your biggest weakness and you're like, I just worked too hard. Okay, me and you've got a whiteboard. We're planning a new product. Chalkboard. Oh, God, I hate chalkboards. Rhyme me at school. What product have you not done that you would most like to do? Private markets is one that I've been very excited about. I think we have a plan to do it. The time between having an idea and executing on it with a new product has decreased quite a bit.

31:40I mean, if you told me six months ago that I'd be sitting here embroiled in some controversy because I've tokenized private markets and we've been able to deliver that to customers, I would have been surprised, but like the team has been executing unbelievably well. What we talked about earlier, which is still in the future of having this like capital as a service offering, if you just press a button and money is deposited in your account, whether it be a business account or a personal account, I think that would be quite meaningful. The one that no one can crack and everyone wants to, people have tried, Nick at Revolut wants it, is the ultra high net worths and the super high net worths who are with Goldman or with Pictet or with JP.

32:23Do you want that market? Yeah, we're interested in that market. How do you win it where others haven't? I don't know if a lot of people have really tried very hard, to be fair. I think that people making$100 ,000 is a very nice market too. And I think it can be very, very tempting to go up and say, okay, why don't we serve the people making a million, five million? and ultra high net worth. Like if you can literally be my family office, I think that is an attractive proposition. And actually that's my goal. I'd like to have all of my personal stuff on Robinhood. And I don't think we're very far from being able to service my needs adequately.

33:02What do we not have today that we do need to service your needs? Yeah. So private banking, which by the way, we're rolling out happening very, very quickly. To my knowledge, this is the first digital private banking product that's really designed for, I mean, private banking has been a very brick and mortar experience. All of the features require a branch. Nobody has been able to crack how to deliver that service without a branch. And I'll give you an example, cash delivery. I don't know if you heard about this cash delivery innovation, which I'm very excited about. One thing that high net worth individuals have access to from private banking is a cash truck.

33:38So I was like floored by this when I got to the level where this could happen. But like First Republic Bank, which is now sadly defunct, had the service where cash would be delivered to your house. And, you know, you don't have to go to an ATM. They offered it for larger amounts of cash and it would come in an armored vehicle. I don't know anyone that has ordered a cash delivery in the thousands from a cash truck. I'm with Goldman. I don't think they fucking do cash trucks. Is that actually a thing? It was a thing. It was why we love First Republic Bank. Because going to the bank and going to an ATM is annoying.

34:15Much more convenient to have the cash brought to you. Do you still use cash? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. For what? Tipping. Oh, you Americans. You don't tip. No, this is an American thing. Yeah. Why do you need like 50 grand in cash? You got to tip. I got a lot of people that give me services. You know, you got to tip them all. That's amazing. And also I have people that work for me that use services too, and they have to tip people. So there's like a whole operation. So you're going to do cash trucks? Amazing branding. Can you imagine like dollar herd cash trucks? Yeah, I don't think we want to operate the trucks.

34:51but we asked ourselves, what would this look like if this was a mass market product? Okay. Not everyone needs an armored truck going to their house and that's quite expensive, but everyone gets a DoorDash or a Deliveroo like you have here, right? Can we solve the needing to go to an ATM problem for you and just get the cash delivered to you, either if you're at your house or if you're out somewhere and you need cash. And this has happened to me a lot of places. My wife gets her hair cut, she wants to pay in cash, and then I have to go look for an ATM. It's annoying. So yeah, we're going to solve that problem by combining the logistics of on-demand delivery with all the work that we're doing in finance, and you'll get cash delivered to your house.

35:34So nobody's been able to figure out how to handle the ATM problem, right? Nothing ruins the private banking vibe more than having to go to a 7-Eleven or a CVS to have to withdraw cash. It's not a premium experience. You also don't want to send customers to some other bank. I'm sure Citi is great, but I don't want my customers going to Citi if they're a private banking customer. So how do you do a branch list? People still have these needs where you have to go to a branch. Well, you should bring the branch to the person. I think that's a thread that we're going to pull on. And that's what high net worth individuals have.

36:09They have people coming to their houses for all of their needs. If you need a notary, they show up to your house. If you need to buy a watch, they'll show up at your house. That's the goal. I think that's how we have to deliver it to our customers. The thing I think that's so interesting with your business is the different insertion points that different players have taken. And so if you look at yours, when you think about like commission-free trading being your insertion point into the first customer base, when you look at Revolut, it's FX is the core. When you look at Monzo, it was actually just like the current account was a hard one to get first, but the current account was the core.

36:41And then each expand from there. If I'm totally honest, and I hope I can say this knowing you a little bit over the years now, I thought yours was kind of the lightest in terms of like commission-free trading. It feels like looser, but I was clearly wrong when I look at what you've done. Why has actually commission-free trading been the best insertion point or was it not? It was just execution alone that was. I think that's a good question. I think that you could build a big business with all of these insertion points, right? And these guys have. I mean, Monzo and Revolut have done very, very well.

37:15Big, impressive businesses. Do you worry more about Revolut or Chime? I think I'm more impressed by Revolut. You know, Revolut's got product velocity, international scale, strong founder, impressive guy. I don't think we like bud into each other very much. Chime, we don't bud into very much either because they're targeting sort of paycheck to paycheck customers. Their customers aren't really investing, but we'd like to get into there too. We'd like to continue to go down market and eventually serve someone that doesn't have money to invest. I do think that the end state of Robinhood involves the current account as well.

37:49We have to get people's paycheck. It's just easier that way if you can have everything go through Robinhood. What is the timeline to that, do you think? Well, banking's rolling out very, very soon, imminently to the first customers. How do you think about the regulatory tactics that have been done by Monzo, Revolut, Starling, where they've really gone for the banking license. When you sit back and analyze that, how do you reflect on, analyze that? It's different depending on the jurisdiction. In the US, banking license has traditionally been very onerous. You have folks in your board meetings approving new products.

38:25So that's tough. You do in the UK, Monzo. And Revolut, to my knowledge, doesn't have a banking license here and it's been fine for them. Well, it's bluntly been the advantage, which is it's enabled a product velocity that Monzo weren't able to have because they had regulatory provisions, which meant they couldn't move that fast. Yeah. There are certain advantages in the other direction, which is if you want to be someone's bank, you can say that we're a bank. 100%. Some people really care about that. Behind all of this is actually the machine that makes it. You know, Neil at Maitre's, I think, a very dear friend of yours.

38:58And he responded when I asked him, I love Vlad, all in caps. He asked very specifically, how did Vlad go from a culture and company that shipped almost nothing, sorry, it was his words, to now shipping at the most extraordinary pace, as specific as possible? We were kind of gummed up in 2020 and 2021 trying to scale. We went from end of 2019, we had 800 employees and we had 200 or so million in annual revenue. Still a big business, But by the end of 2020, we had close to a billion in annual revenue. We quadrupled the business. That was tough because it happened while we were remote. We were dealing with pandemic.

39:43We hired all these people. I think in hindsight, we ingested too many people. It became hard to operate. You know, these were new people that didn't know how to work with us. We were all remote. We had to also scale customer support. This was before AI. So if we quadrupled our customer base, we had to more than quadruple our customer support team because, frankly, we weren't even doing a great job with the folks we had back in the day. So it was making sure we have really, really good talent. That involves some cultural changes to reorient the company post-COVID, bringing people back into the office so we could onboard better.

40:20How important is being in person? I make sure everyone's in person for all of our companies. I'm a big in-person bull in general. Yeah, I think we've operated much better since we, and it was actually very painful for us because we went remote first. So I had to like pull that back entirely, which pissed a lot of people off. Is it as bad as you think? A lot of people are like, well, I can't pull it back. I think very few doors are actually one way. Totally. There's no one way doors that I've encountered. It can be done. We've done it, which I think is a great example. Okay, so we're back in office.

40:52We have new personnel. Anything that you've done to really fucking supercharge product delivery, iteration shipping? I think AI has been important. I think there's probably like 12 little things that you just go and do. If you really want to ship fast and deliver fast, you have to orient your culture towards optimizing for that. It's difficult in financial services, especially because you also have to protect people's money and be safe. And I think it's an important thing to not treat these two things as things that counterbalance each other. Oh, well, we can't ship fast because that compromises safety.

41:29You have to say, no, I want you to do it at high quality, which means delivering it safely. But also, once you know what to do, executing relentlessly. That's relatively like Steve Jobs. No, I want it beautiful and today. And fast. I totally understand that. What's your framework for deciding what new products to do versus not do? I think I follow my intuition quite a bit. Do you agree with the tutorial style of the leadership? I think that certain things have to be top down. The vision has to be top down. How many direct reports do you have? I think it's about 15, 15 to 20. I think you know when it's necessary because it's very, very clear when something needs to be top down because you have people that aren't agreeing with things.

42:11They're like disagreeing with each other. And I think if that goes on for too long and it's not intentional, that's probably a sign of some form of dysfunction. And that's when you need to be top down. But I don't think you have to be top down to an extreme degree. That's the difficult part. What I try to do is be clear about where we're going and what the end state is and give people who are in the details and can focus on their thing a lot of autonomy to how you achieve the actual thing. And then they become owners of it. They become accountable to it. So I wouldn't be top down and dictate exactly how everything is done.

42:50For some things, I'll have opinions, the products that I'm very close to, how the events are done, how it's announced. I want to make it clear that my GMs, the product leaders, the folks that are close to the ground can overrule me. And I just encourage them to actually yell at me and tell me I'm being an idiot when they think so. What element of your leadership do you know is bad but continue to do regardless? I've been accused of having low emotional intelligence. Do you work on that or do you just accept that, hey, that's part of me? I try to work on it a little bit. Maybe I'm inept, but I don't know.

43:27I consider myself somewhat emotionally intelligent. Do you tie your happiness to the performance of the company? I try not to, but it's sometimes hard to avoid. I mean, just think about it. I'm pretty happy now. In 2022, I was kind of in the dumps and it took an inordinate amount of effort to like climb out of that. I can't remember who it was, but someone asked, did you ever feel in the dumps that it actually wouldn't work? I never really felt like the company was in danger of going bankrupt or anything. The good thing about 2022 is we'd raised$6 billion in cash in 2021, which, you know, can be a good and a bad thing, but we had - This was before you went public?

44:08This was after we went, 2022 was after we went public. We raised a bunch of cash in the IPO, I think 1.5 to 2 billion, but also during GameStop, we raised like 4 billion. So we had a lot of cash, but it was painful. And I did ask myself whether I was like the person to do this, right? Because I went from leading a growing startup that went public and that was a nice capstone. Many people consider going public to be sort of like a end goal in and of itself. And then I was like administering a reduction in force and leading a turnaround. Do you like being public? I've never met a public CEO who actually likes it.

44:45I like being public actually, yeah. You do? I do. Why? I think it's great because we flipped, in my head at least, from thinking about all the public company stuff like earnings and all of that, from being a nuisance to being just a fun opportunity to connect with our community of shareholders and retail investors. So if you look at our recent earnings calls, I don't know if you've seen them. The vision is it's like a post-game press conference. So I've got the Robinhood logos behind me. Post-game press conferences are a lot of fun. They're fun if the team wins or if the team loses. Because if the team wins, you've got them wearing the nice designer clothes.

45:24They're feeling confident. They're talking good. If you're rooting for the team, you want to see them win. And if they lose, sometimes you get dirt about like what player is not pulling their weight or, you know, they come in with like the towel over the shoulder and getting railed by the press. Like you played bad. Why did you not get any assists? Why did you only score seven points? So, you know, getting a star player getting railed on by the media after a terrible game is always entertaining. This is like the business equivalent of that, really. Do you think Stripe should go public? I think Stripe can do whatever it wants.

45:58Obviously, they can raise infinite amounts of capital from the private markets to run their business. I do think it's a big problem that a retail investor can't get access to Stripe shares, which has been a category defining company. I've shared this viewpoint with Patrick and John, and they give me some variant of, oh, well, we're just a small Irish family company. Please don't tokenize my shares. We'll see. Dude, I'd love to do a quick fire round. I could spend all day talking to you. What have you changed your mind on most in the last 12 months? Prediction markets. Prediction markets is kind of an interesting category of thing.

46:35Some people consider it gambling. So you have the whole like, is it gambling or is it investing controversy that we're continuing to contend with? It's sort of the bane of our existence to some degree. I believe it's investing. Many people believe that it's gambling. And it's also like the, is it going to be state regulated? Is it going to be CFTC federally regulated like a future? So I think we have lots of debates about what that looks like in our product from separate apps, separate tabs, separate brand to the other spectrum, just fully integrated, which is basically the direction we've gone.

47:10That's a heady one. That one's at the frontier. Private markets, I'm guessing is going to be tough to navigate. There's a lot of people that don't like what we're doing there, but I'm quite motivated to actually make that work. So I think will ultimately prevail there. Which competitor do you most respect and why then? I think Revolut's a good one. Revolut, you know, you can tell the culture is in a good place. That's the no bullshit company that cares a lot about winning. I think it's pretty clear. So respect them tremendously. I respect Coinbase. I think they're a technology company in our space.

47:44We come across them quite a bit. We collaborate in some ways, but no bullshit, founder led. I think they've done very well. And I think there's a lot of smaller players that also are hungry and doing well. Any that are non-obvious, but super interesting. I think Altruist is somewhat interesting as a competitor. Have you heard of Altruist? It's funny. It's great. We have all these competitors in all these different fields. Well, you do everything, dude. There's quite a lot to compete with. Yeah. Altruist is kind of our competitor in the RIA custody business, the products we offer to advisors to serve their end clients.

48:23Their pitch was, we're Robinhood for advisors. They do some things very, very well. And we believe we can be Robinhood for advisors. They have a CEO who's a good looking guy. He's kind of the, you know, hanging around all these advisory conferences. And, you know, we entered that space via acquisition a couple of months ago. So that should be interesting. We booked this in yesterday, and I stalked the shit out of you. And you'll be impressed, I think, by the level of stalking the shit out of you I did. Let's see. I hear that you now have a personal trainer and you didn't for many years. You solo trained for many years.

48:56Well, you didn't see my men's health article, did you? No. So I was in men's health about a year and a half ago. I didn't get the cover, unfortunately. Fuckers. Which I thought was very disappointing. I think I deserve the men's health cover. Why didn't you buy a men's health? I didn't have the money back then. I don't know how much they're worth. I can order you a cash truck if you'd like one. But anyway, there's a men's health feature on me working out with my trainer. And I think for that one, I deadlifted close to 400 pounds. But they showed the picture of me deadlifting 135 for some reason.

49:29We're going to put this out right here. It's going to be beautifully visualized for this video. Wow. Well done. Thank you. So how did like training change? I had a bad back injury right around the time I had my first child. I was like lifting incredibly heavy weight and I popped the disc in my back. So I had surgery scheduled because I literally couldn't get up from a seated position without excruciating pain going up my leg. So I had the surgery scheduled. At the last minute, I kind of bailed from it. I'm like, ah, it's feeling a little bit better. It took two years to become pain-free from the time I popped the disc.

50:07Then I kind of like rebuilt from first principles. So during COVID, I started working with a trainer. And for the first year when we were all remote, we were doing body weight and dumbbell stuff only. And then gradually over time, I got into like lifting heavy, doing barbell work again. But it was just going from working out by myself, as you said, to like rebuilding my form and doing like from the ground up, like just it's like a basketball player rebuilding their free throw. I had to just do everything properly, starting with very little weight. I was sold when I heard that you're in men's health.

50:40That's the coolest thing that you've said for the last hour. I'm still super impressed. What purchase under$500 has had the biggest impact on your life? Total washlet. What is that? You've never heard of this Japanese toilet? No. Yeah. You don't use Luro? I do, but for drying only. Ah. Yeah. This must be so disappointing when you go to a place without it and you're like, shit, I've got to go back to the old way it is disappointing yeah i'm sorry let me just make sure next time you're here we'll get one of these for you you should get one uh yeah i mean it's it's fine i just uh try to avoid using the bathroom you've opened my world to cash trucks and not that's amazing japanese toilets japanese toilets dude um they even have a portable actually if you don't want to spend the 500 for 30 bucks you can get this little thing that's battery operated and you can take with you If you want to go to 10 ,000, you get the full toilet.

51:34Oh, I'm sold. Yeah, that has some nice features. That is. I'll ask for it for Christmas. What's the biggest advice on marriage? I've only done it once, so I don't have voluminous advice. You don't, but you've been through a shit ton. I mean, Christ, Vlad. Yeah. And you're still together. My wife and I would disagree with this. I think she's more of like, you know the movie Severance? Yeah. She would prefer a more severance-like existence where it's sort of like I come home, I don't really think about work, and I take off my work clothes and I'm in home mode and there's sort of more strict separation.

52:13I prefer closer to full integration. My work people coming into my house and hanging out with my kids and me doing a meeting while I'm on vacation. My kids coming to work, so it can't just be one way. It has to be both ways. I think that's one thing we disagree on. But I think there's something also about just like full unconditional commitment where you just know that if you have an issue or a concern, you can work it out. Penultimate one, which one was the hardest? Oh, shit, that turned into a good thing. So for example, when I was 17, I was kicked out of school for being heavily, very bulimic.

52:46And because of that, I went to this really loose school where they gave you loads of free time and I started a podcast. Oh, amazing. Being public through 2022, seeing our stock go from, I don't know what it was in 2021, irrationally high perhaps, but it was still high after we went public down to being worth below cash was a very - I mean, that's offensive, isn't it? It was below cash. So people were betting that we would just like waste our cash and never be profitable. It was offensive in hindsight. It was tough. And I think that in hindsight led to us making a bunch of decisions and investments and like responding to it in a very positive way that now we're reaping the benefits of.

53:28Okay, final one for you. Where is Robinhood? And you can choose the timeframe in five or 10 years time. But where is Robinhood in five or 10 years time? Well, the vision behind Robinhood is to make it possible for everyone, whether they be an individual or a business, to buy, sell, or hold any financial asset or conduct any financial transaction. That involves us going from US primary to fully global and from retail only to serving not just retail, but business and institutions. Dude, I so appreciate you. I so appreciate all you've done for me. You've always been so good to me. Thank you for joining me.

54:08And this has been so much fun. Always a pleasure. Now, before we wrap up today, I just want to say Vlad first came on the show six or seven years ago when we were very small. I was very young. He's been a friend, a mentor, a supporter for the last five or six years. He's just an incredible dude. I'm so grateful for the friendship and he was incredible there. If you want to see the episode, you can watch it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC. But before we leave you today, I love seeing the team come together to make this show happen. What I don't love is trying to keep track of all the information, the data and the projects that we're working on across dozens of platforms, products and tools.

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