AirPods are good for your (hearing) health

27:46The old ring had three little bumps on the inside, and that was there for a reason. The inside was epoxy, and epoxy is a type of resin where it diffuses light in a specific way. It can get a little bit messy, so you really want the sensors to have good skin contact in that case to kind of mitigate that kind of factor. Also, rings will rotate during the day. Ideally, you want the sensors to be on the underside of your ring because that's going to get the best signal pathway to your blood and all that nonsense. so what this new ring does is that it recesses the sensor so that it's more comfortable you know when i'm bloated this is a lot easier and less painful to take off than the the gen 3 was i do appreciate that um and they have a new sensor algorithm which you know it just basically more than doubles the number of signal pathways that can be used so if the ring is moving around on your finger, it's not going to matter quite as much for accuracy and data collection.

28:49So it's so minute. It's very cool in terms of like an engineering perspective. Oh, it also improves battery life. So it's very cool from like, oh, that's really nerdy. That's awesome. I love this for the engineers. But in terms of actually wearing it, not a huge difference. Not a huge difference yeah that's fair but i think that there there was a bunch of software like between the beginning of the three and the beginning of the four also that is like so much the three and again i think this is very much to aura's credit like the three is a much better device than it was when it shipped which is not always true uh of these devices and the four gets all of that and then a little more like the one i was excited about was the the sort of expanded activity tracking.

29:36Because for me, my problem with the Oura Rings for a while, and granted it's been, I think the last one I wore was like the very beginning of the three, was that it eventually got to a point where it was only sort of sporadically good at everything except sleep, which it was very good at, but I didn't care. I have gotten to a point where sleep tracking just does nothing for me. I know when I sleep well and I know when I don't. That's pretty much all I got. But there was a lot of the, like, standalone activity tracking that it wasn't very good at even then. And I think now it seems like the three, and especially now the four, are pretty good at that, actually.

30:17That, like, as activity trackers, they're pretty good. They've expanded the automatic activity detection, which was a big thing. Because, like, on a smartwatch, it is so easy to manually start an activity. On a smart ring, you have to take out your phone. You have to open up the app. you have to do the thing. Which is like non-starter, honestly. It's a non-starter for a lot of people, but now they've expanded it to 40 activities. And it's not just the Aura Ring 4 that's going to get that. They've really not gatekept any of these software updates. Like it might - Oh, that all goes back. Yeah, it goes all back.

30:49So it might take a bit to roll out to the three, but I asked Aura and nothing is really gatekept software-wise. It's just that this is like got the new sensing algorithm, so it's more accurate. That's the only thing that's really true of the four versus the three. So not a huge incentive to upgrade for people unless their batteries are shot. But the automatic activity detection is, you know, I don't track my walks on smartwatches for a number of reasons. But, you know, it was actually quite good at picking up when I had done the walks. It includes GPS maps. It includes the heart rate. So it's like, oh, my little activity was still counted.

31:32And I didn't have to worry about duplicates because I do track all of my runs on a watch and all of my strength sessions on a watch. And those it just imported from the health API. So it was very clean. It was a very clean experience. I have yet to get housework counted in the aura ring. So apparently I'm not cleaning. You have to clean more aggressively. I'm not cleaning with vigor. Yeah. Yeah, so we'll have to see. I would love to hear from people if it's catching their basketball sessions or whatever, but I'm boring. I mostly run, walk, and do strength training. So I'd love to hear from other people how that's worked out for them.

32:12Well, I barely do that, so you've got me on that. But the reason Aura is very happy to bring all of these new features back to their old rings is because of the way Aura makes money, which I would say caused a great amount of consternation in our comments and in your email inbox after you published the Battle Royale in particular, which is the subscription fee. I should probably just lay my cards on the table here and say, I don't think this is a problem. And a$6 a month subscription fee for something like this is fine. It's fine. If you don't want to have it, don't have it. I think if Apple started to suddenly magically charge you another$6 a month to have an iPhone, I would have an issue with it because that is like a thing everyone needs to live modern life.

32:56A smart ring is not that thing. $6 a month to make your$350 ring actually continue to be very good for as long as Aura has done it, I think is fine. I'm going to get a lot of angry people. That's just where I'm at. You are going to get a lot of angry people. I have some sympathy because what basically, you know, Aura did a Marquez where they had a... That's what they did. That's what they did. with the Gen 3, even though they did it before Marques did it. Marques just catching strays on the first cast. Jeez. No, I mean, like, I think this is just like kind of a really easy recent example to explain why people are mad.

33:34Did Aura release a wallpapers app? No. Oh, okay. I see what you're trying to do. So, you know, the Gen 2 had no subscription. They introduced it with the Gen 3. So you had a thing that did not have a subscription that you then added a subscription to. And that is why Aura has been catching strays and has made people super angry about this for so long. That is fair. It didn't used to require. Charging for something that didn't used to cost money sucks. I do agree with that. I'm sensitive to that. Yeah. So I fully understand where people are coming from as to, like, why they were mad that Aura has a subscription to begin with.

34:10On the other hand, I have to say that one-time hardware sales does not keep the lights on for most companies. And it really doesn't when you have a company like Aura who is investing quite a lot into research and development and science. That stuff is expensive to have peer-reviewed studies on your device. You know, just submitting to a journal, a peer-reviewed journal, that's like$25 ,000. That's a lot of money. And that's why you see a lot of dubious claims in the health tech space about algorithms, about all of this stuff. They don't have to do this, really. They don't have to test their algorithm against polysomnography, which is the clinical gold standard.

34:55They don't have to do any of this research. None of it is required to just sell you a consumer-grade device. They are choosing to do it, and it is expensive to do this. So in that sense, you are paying for that. You are paying for the science. You are paying for that degree of research. Is that a good trade? I mean, Oro has won our contest and you just gave it a nine. Like, is that the right tradeoff for Oro to be making over time? It is a gambit that they are taking. I don't know if it's the right one. They are betting that people are willing to pay for the best. And so long as they are the best, okay, sure, go for it.

35:35I do think it is worth noting that all of their competitors make a very big point about not having a subscription. Right. And Samsung can afford to do that. Samsung is big. They have other revenue streams. They don't need to charge a subscription for the Galaxy Ring, which is pricey. Yeah, because you have to spend$2 ,000 on a phone to get there. Yeah, to get everything, you're going to have to spend on all that hardware. For some people, they're not going to think too hard about that because they already have it or whatnot, et cetera, et cetera. Sure. Love that. But for some of the other competitors, like RingCon, which we completely glossed over because it's fine, they can undercut Aura in terms of price.

36:17And they can deliver a decent fitness tracking experience. And some people are just going to be super happy with that. And they're going to be fine with that. And that's great. I just think if you want a decent fitness tracking experience, download an app on your phone. Like, I mean, I'm sort of serious, right? Like, you would be surprised, not you, V, but most people I think would be surprised at the sophistication that you can get by downloading an app on your phone and then holding your phone in your hand. it's not remotely within range of these dedicated devices but like if you just want a thing that does a relative job of counting your steps and telling you how you slept those are apps on your phone they exist download those things uh i think the people who want this dedicated hardware mostly want the best things and should and this is like it's it's why ultra human and whoop and some of these companies are going so hard it's why garmin continues to go as hard as it does because these are this is the customer and I think to some extent the thing that Apple did with smartwatches was like pull that down towards everyday people in a way nobody had before and and had like taught Google and Samsung in a lot of ways how to make watches that appeal to regular people but also do some of those other things and rings for me are still very much in the like unless you're serious about this you don't even consider buying one phase yeah they're just very I really feel like it appeals the most, actually, to wellness influencers and that type of person who just does not want a bulky smartwatch.

37:52They don't want smart. It's definitely not the average Vergecast listener, but I have been to parties where this very well-dressed, well-heeled woman comes up to me and she's like, oh, I see you have an Oura ring. I love my Oura ring because I want to wear this designer watch that is not a smartwatch. I don't want an Apple watch. I don't want this. And I've just been sitting there going like, oh, okay. Yeah. How much is that Air One salad that you're eating? I buy that entirely, right? And I think that is a really good case for smart rings. But I think for most people, if you don't want to wear a smartwatch and you don't care deeply about the fitness side of things, like my point is there's no use for a casual smart ring user at this moment for most things?

38:38For most things. It's truly just people who do not care about, like, it's going to seem foreign to techies, I think, but they're just truly normal people who do not care about anything a smartwatch has to offer. Because if we compare a smart ring and a smartwatch, which are generally similarly priced, value for value, the smartwatch is going to give you more of everything and is, in my opinion, kind of a better value proposition for a lot of people. But there are just people who do not care about that. And it's why I get so many people just messaging me and DMing me and being like, I don't understand the whole point of a smart ring.

39:17And I get it. I get where they're coming from. But I've also talked to these other people who just are like, I don't get the point of a smartwatch. So you're just serving two very different audiences in that respect. And, you know, it's the Kim Kardashians who is an Aura Ring user. It is B. Gwyneth Paltrow's, the Jennifer Aniston's, all of these people who are just, it's a more discreet thing. So you're really just paying for the discretion. You're paying for the form factor. And we'll have to see because the thing about other companies, and if Apple comes out with a smart ring, I think Aura's cooked.

39:56I think they are potentially cooked. Maybe not right away, but, you know, because the first Apple Watch wasn't anything super amazing. It was just, oh, Apple's here. But like, if Apple was like, oh, the Apple Ring 4, uh-oh. And, I mean, if Apple could take the decade of stuff it has learned about health and fitness and just pull it out of the watch and into this different form factor, like, I think there's reason to believe that thing could get much better, much faster. Much better, much faster. And, you know, if they kind of take some of what Samsung's doing and pull it into the ecosystem, oh, all of a sudden we got the smart part of the smart ring.

40:35Because right now we're just having a basic fitness tracker in a different form factor that is slightly more comfortable for people to wear, especially for this one specific use case, which is sleep tracking. And Aura does that really well, but Aura doesn't make phones. or it doesn't, it's a very like one trick pony kind of situation. And they have to partner with other companies in order to kind of expand beyond that. So, ah, is this subscription plan gonna play out long term? I say in my review, I'm not sure. As long as they're the best at this niche category. Yeah, sure. I think it could work for them.

41:16But other people are coming. I think it's very telling that Samsung came out and knocked it out of the park with the hardware in its first go. The software is what needs work with Samsung. And, you know, not gatekeeping it to very expensive phones and watches to get the best out of it. Which, to be clear, is exactly what Apple would and will do if it ever launches this one. Yeah, but, you know, the Apple fans, they're really invested. I have already... Yeah, they got the money. I have already heard from readers who are like, if Apple came out with the smart ring, I would get it, but I can't be bothered with this Oura Ring and its subscription.

41:52And I'm like, duly noted, duly noted. It's good to be Apple. It really, really, really is good to be Apple. Yeah. All right, V, we got to go. Thank you so much. Here's hoping you don't have to do this again next year because Apple launches a ring. But also, if you do, we'll be back. I probably will. I already have a straggler smart ring that I have to review. So we'll see. All right. Well, we'll see you for the next one. All right. Thanks. All right. We got to take a break and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about the new hearing health features on the AirPods Pro 2. We'll be right back.

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44:40All right, we're back. So when Apple announced all of its new stuff in September, one of the biggest announcements was about the AirPods Pro 2, but it wasn't new headphones. It was just a software update for the headphones that brought, among other things, some new hearing health features and particularly a hearing aid mode that could actually be a really big deal for people with hearing loss. We didn't get to try it at first, but Chris Welch has gotten to try the new features now. They're coming out soon. I think there's something very exciting going on here, if all of this actually works the way that Apple claims that it does.

45:18Chris, luckily, knows the answer. Let's get into it. Chris Welch, welcome back. Hello, it's a pleasure to be here as always. We've gotten to do this so much recently. It's like headphone season in a truly crazy way right now. It is. Now we're here for a headphone reason, but something a bit different than usual. That's true. It's like headphones adjacent, I would say. Yes, yes. So this is a strange way to ask an initial question, but what exactly have you been testing on the AirPods? So I've been testing a suite of new hearing health features for the AirPods Pro. Apple announced these at their event a few months ago, and now they're rolling out with iOS 18.1 and some new firmware for the earbuds the week of October 28th.

46:00And so everyone will be able to use their AirPods as hearing protection, as hearing aids, and there's hearing tests. You can test your hearing because no one ever goes to the hearing doctor. I haven't been in years. Yeah, so there's a lot to cover. I am going to ask you to reveal some personal information about yourself. I hope you're ready for that. I'm ready. But the reason I ask that question that way is it seems like my initial impression of this was that there was going to be like a hearing aid mode on the AirPods. that you would go into settings and turn it on, and then it would do a bunch of different stuff, or it would be sort of an accessibility feature.

46:37And what it actually seems like is Apple has baked this kind of hearing awareness, both of your own hearing and of the world, into kind of how the whole thing works. It's much more holistic than I expected. Has that been your impression too? Mostly. I mean, there is a hearing aid mode. That is a separate mode that you turn on or off. But the rest of hearing protection is always on by default in all modes now. So like it was there before, like they had, I think it was called loud noise reduction. But this is much broader. It's like people like wore their AirPods to concerts before and Apple never really like said, sure, that's great.

47:08They didn't tell you not to, but they, you know, weren't like thrilled about it. But now you actually can use your AirPods to concerts and they've tuned the EQ so you hear stuff better. And so that's there. And that's going to be a huge deal for a lot of people who like don't wear earplugs to concerts. Please wear earplugs to concerts. And so that's there. Yes, like a lot of it just on by default and it's just going to be there from now on. Okay. So the very beginning of this process is you take the hearing test, right? That's the like the first thing that happens. Yeah. Tell me about this hearing test.

47:38Okay. Yeah, it was very like emotional, very nerve wracking because I haven't seen the audiologist since probably 2018, pre-COVID easily. So it's been a long, long time. And like, I don't listen to like metal. I like sad bastard singer-songwriters, you know that kind of genre so like thankfully i'm sure that saved me a bit over the years but like i grew up with like a sony discman at my hip and like then so many ipods and iphones and so like i was nervous taking it and so it's like five minutes and you hear like a series of beeps these three tone beeps just beep beep beep beep beep beep like all sorts of frequencies and it lasts about five minutes uh first to do your left ear then your right ear and the test is different for each.

48:16Like you hear tones like different times for both of the ears. So it's, so you can't game it or like that kind of thing. But yeah, it's just very intense. Like I had several people here at the office take it and they're all like, yeah, it's just very, you know, it's a lot. Also like hearing loss is super common. Like 1.5 billion people in the world have some level of hearing loss. And so like, it's nothing to be ashamed of or like stigmatized. And so it's just, you know, part of life. But like taking that test for the first time is definitely like a thing. so the test is like it plays these tones and it's i'm sort of imagining the the thing that you do i've done this once that i can think of where you actually sit in the doctor's office with a giant pair of headphones and they're like raise your hand when you hear the tone uh raise the the hand on the side that it's on it's kind of a it sounds like it's sort of a smartphoneized version of that the screen whenever you hear a tone essentially okay yeah okay yes you tap the screen and like some noises are like super faint so you've got to like pay super close attention it's like that thing where like you think you heard something, but you're not sure.

49:14They've like accounted for all that, like the testing. And so, yeah, it takes about five minutes. It's a long five minutes. And then you get your results charted out. And there are five tiers of hearing loss. There's little to no, which I fell in somehow, which is amazing to me. Yeah, thank you. There's moderate, sorry, there's mild, moderate, severe, and profound is the last one. And so those are the five levels. And so the hearing aid functionality is for anyone who has mild to moderate hearing loss. So if you have like more than that, then you're still gonna have to go see like a professional and get like that tier of hearing aid versus this.

49:48But it's still like a big deal for so many people who don't want to spend thousands of dollars. But yeah, the test itself is, it's kind of fun. I am sort of terrified just at the prospect thinking about this now because I'm sort of in the position that you are. And I think about this with vision too. Like I have 20-20 vision. I don't wear glasses. I'm very proud of that fact. I am 100 % sure that if I go to an eye doctor, they are going to make me wear glasses. And so I'm never going to do it. I don't even have problems with my vision. It's just one of those things that like I bet it could be better and I don't even know.

50:19But the prospect of that scares me. And I think what's interesting about hearing is that we all sort of understand the massive scale of vision issues, right? That like we understand prescription levels and they go all the way up and down and you can go all the way from like barely needing glasses to being totally blind. Like that spectrum we all understand. We don't talk about that with hearing at all. And I think there is like, I don't know, decades at this point of people warning you about wearing headphones and listening to music too loud. And I can still hear my parents being like, turn the music down.

50:53You're going to go deaf. But I don't think I've ever had someone quantify my hearing for me. So I am curious, like, what was that? What does it feel like when you take the test, it processes, you get the audiogram being like... you're mostly okay. Like, is that a strangely, like, gratifying feeling? Very strange. And, like, for some reason, like, my left ear is a bit worse off than my right. So that had me wondering, like, where in life, like, is my left, you're exposed to, like, much more sound than my right? And, like, I couldn't pinpoint, like, any phase of life where that would have been the case.

51:24It's driving with the window. That's what it is. That's what it is. It's just the wind coming by. Could very well be. Just crushing your ears. Yeah. Yeah, so that was my main takeaway. But I could see this going, like, viral on TikTok and, like, having, like, a moment, which would be good for, like, awareness, I think. You know, it is, like, private. not everyone is going to be comfortable sharing. But I think, you know, it could have a moment on like social media of just people like raising awareness and sharing their results. And, you know, I'm sure like the iPod generation is going to have a reckoning of some sort.

51:49But yeah, it's going to be something. Okay. So just to go back to one of the things you said a minute ago, there are the five different scales of hearing loss. And you said the AirPods are only designed for the first three, basically, right? Little to no, mild and moderate. Like that's, and for the rest, that is, you require something different. Still have to see a doctor and have like a professional hearing aid equipped. Yeah, this is like more, this is like Apple's counters, like all these new like over-the-counter hearing aids. This is their take on that. And so, yeah, it's going to be like a super, super powerful thing.

52:22Like we talk about like ecosystem lock-in and like this is like a whole new level of that if you think about it. Like your hearing aid is like an Apple device now. And so like what are the odds you're ever going to like leave the iPhone at that point? Like on the whole, I think it's a very good thing. I think there are some concerns about like smaller companies, like why would you bother making your own hearing aid and trying to compete against Apple, like the biggest tech company in the world, like once they come into this space. But on the whole, people are going to save a ton of money, which is, I think, a huge deal.

52:48Totally. So once it's set up and once it's tuned to you specifically, what does it do? Like it's easy to say, you know, it just it makes everything louder so that you can hear it. But I have to imagine it's more complicated than that. Like what are the actual features inside of this hearing aid stuff? You can tune how loud it is. You can tune how sharp the sound is and how crisp. There are a lot of customization options once you actually have your results. And so that's important if you want to make it sound right. And so Apple says it takes a few days to adjust to how it sounds. For me, I barely did anything because I have little to no hearing loss, so I didn't really notice much of anything.

53:22But they say that can still help people who need certain frequencies boosted. And so I just haven't noticed it myself, but it's there if you want it. But battery life is about six hours with the hearing aid mode turned on, which is about the same as the AirPods itself. So, yeah, that's pretty nice. And, yeah, I mean, I don't know. Not sure what else there is to say about it. Like, I haven't tried it myself. I'm sure there are going to be, like, deep dives about, like, how well it works versus, like, over-the-counter options. Was there a little part of you as a reviewer who was like, damn it, I wish I didn't have worse ears so I could actually do this to myself?

53:53Yeah, in some way. But for now, I'm just glad that I shoot concerts and still have mostly good hearing intact. Yeah, I think it nets out. It nets out okay. The concerts one I think is interesting because there do seem to be sort of two sides of what a device like this does to your hearing, right? On the one hand, it's enhance things you want to hear. And I think to me, the best sort of existing thing I've heard a bunch of people mention is like the voice isolation feature that you can get on calls and stuff that it's just that's a certain bit of processing just designed to make it easier to hear the thing that you want to hear.

54:26And it's like, take that idea and sort of expand it across all the audio on your phone, and that is one version of what it's trying to do. Does that seem about right to you, having used it now? Yeah. Okay. But then the flip side is all the hearing protection stuff, which is like these things are designed to protect your ears from getting worse. And that strikes me as something that may actually be just as interesting to just as many people, even people like you who aren't photographing concerts all the time. Right. I realized in just reading about this that I have no idea how that would work. Like, what is it doing in the hearing protection mode?

55:04It just avoids loud sounds beyond, like, a certain threshold. I think, I'm not sure what the number is offhand, but, like, once things are, like, over that level, it'll just kind of, like, down, you know, just bring things back to a safer level. And so that works in, like, all modes, like noise cancellation mode, transparency mode, and also the adaptive audio mode. And so, like, each of those, like, you'll hear, like, certain amounts of, like, a concert, like... So for noise cancellation mode, you're still not going to hear much of anything. So just still trying to cancel out everything. It's like that's not the most enjoyable concert experience, I would say.

55:32But you can use transparency mode and hear pretty much everything. It's still going to be fairly loud in your ears, but it's going to be a much safer level of loudness versus if you didn't have them in at all. And so that makes all the difference. Got it. So it's basically there to just say it is going to sort of brutally suppress the worst noises no matter the cost. Like, forget the smoothing it out, trying to make it sound natural thing. Like, we are going to just demolish any of these really loud, damaging sounds. I mean, it's tuned to make things sound, like, natural and crisp and, like, detailed.

56:03It's like you don't lose much by having it on. Like, I was at this open mic night a few nights ago and didn't feel like I was, like, really missing out much in terms of, like, frequency range or anything like that. So, like, I was impressed. I haven't used it, like, a big arena show yet. Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to do that. But, yeah, no, it's like a—it's just strange to have them in. all the time now, like for these tests that I've been doing. I think that's like a whole different thing to talk about. Like people are going to be wearing AirPods all the time now, which is kind of unusual versus where we've been before.

56:31I wonder about that though. I mean, I, and I'm, I'm, I'm still sort of struck by you just saying so casually, lots of people wear AirPods at concerts. And like, at first I was just like, oh yeah, sure. Of course. And then I'm like, wait, why on earth would you wear AirPods at concert uh but to some extent i think we have really normalized the idea of wearing airpods all the time yeah i think we you can argue about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing i think by and large it's actually it actually sucks because like the social cues are a problem like right if people think it's rude but now you really can't have that like assumption like usually when i have my airpods in people probably assume like i have like half they have like half my attention whereas now like someone could be using it as a hearing aid and like you could have their full attention and so it's not you can't just assume like what someone is using them for I think that's going to be the big, like, sea change here.

57:16Totally. So, yeah, how do you see that playing out? Like, is this just going to push the I'm wearing headphones from the minute I wake up till the minute I go to sleep thing to kind of the nth degree forever? Like, for me, it's always what do I do when I'm wearing headphones and I walk into Starbucks, right? And I think about, like, if I'm wearing over-the-ear headphones, this is the thing I've thought about too much. If I'm wearing over-the-ear headphones, I will take them off around my neck. because you should assume I'm wearing noise-canceling headphones and legitimately cannot hear you. If I'm wearing AirPods, I'll usually just take one out.

57:49And sometimes even take one out while the person is looking at me as a way of being like, hello, I am now paying attention to you. But again, like you're saying, there are now going to be people who have an actual medical purpose to be wearing these things in order to be able to hear people better. And if I'm the person behind the counter at Starbucks, that's just it's going to be tricky to figure out what to do about that but it also just seems like maybe the only correct assumption is just going to be just talk to the people and hope to god they're not playing really loud music i don't know yeah yeah i think it's going to take time obviously uh i think it's going to like just kind of like have that thought of like people are being rude or like trying to ignore you kind of fade away i mean that'll still be the case in certain like i put my airpods in to avoid people at times so like that's going to keep going i'm sure but like there's just like that assumption of like why someone has their earpods and earbuds in it's gonna have to change over time it's gonna be a while i think and i think like this is gonna put a lot of pressure on samsung and google google's like we're all their own like versions of these features and like once that happens then you know and then it's really on and so but yeah it's been like a surreal experience like the test is very intense the hearing protection stuff is a lot of fun it's good i think for everybody because you don't realize like how loud daily life is like i'm down in the subway hearing like screeching trains go by sometimes.

59:04And I'm just like covering my ears when I have nothing else available to me. So stuff like that is, you know. You never go back once you wear something that is really good at doing that kind of work. Like it ruins a lot of things for you. But to that point, actually, I'm curious how you're feeling as a headphone guy about all of this, because I think the stuff that Apple is doing for hearing health, I think is like unequivocally a good thing, right? The question is how well it works and for how many people. And that's going to be tricky because people are complicated and ears are different and everybody's hearing is different.

59:37But whatever, I think that is mostly agreed upon a good thing to be working on. But we're also in this phase, and I think Apple is out in front of this, of trying to perfect every sound in every instance all the time. And the AirPods Pro 2 are probably the best example of this. There's a gaming mode. There's stuff dedicated to just Siri working well. There's voice isolation. Spatial audio head tracking. Yeah, there's spatial audio head tracking. Like, God help us if the head nod thing ever starts to take off. Like, that sounds like a nightmare. But I just think we're headed to this place where step one is, like, build a nice pair of headphones.

1:00:18And then step two is, like, try and process it perfectly for every imaginable situation. and I just wonder if that's the right road to be going down with all of this stuff. Like we're headed towards such a weird everything is AR audio universe. And what does that make you feel as a music guy? I think I feel much better about like these use cases versus like the other stuff we've seen previously. Like we've made a lot of noise about like, you know, giving up the headphone jack and like the phone you buy like decides what earbuds you get basically. And like that's where we're at now. So to see like health benefits, like that's where I'm like, okay, this is the payoff to like where we've been going for all these years.

1:00:56And that's great. But like all the head nods and like those gimmicks are, you know, they are what they are. You know, people are going to use them or they won't. But like this is like the argument where it's like, OK, this is worth like giving up that phone jack, going wireless only. Because these are not like just earbuds anymore, obviously. And so that's good, I think, for the whole industry. But as far as like, you know, just music is still there. You know, I love my music. I can just settle in and, you know, just vibe. And that's not going to change anytime soon. But they do do so much more now.

1:01:23And so, yeah, it's just a lot to think about, to process. And so this is like a huge moment, obviously, but we're going to see the same from Samsung and those companies, I'm sure. It's like, how could they not, you know, try and copy this? It does seem like pretty clearly the next thing for all of these companies. And again, I think it's mostly a good thing. And I do think one thing it seems Apple has done well, and I want to hear more about your experience of this, is kind of after that initial setup, it doesn't seem like you have to do all that much. Like you take the test and it learns about your ears.

1:01:53And I expected there to be tons of, you know, buttons and knobs and you're constantly having it going in. And like the voice isolation is another one for me. It has always driven me crazy that that's not just on. Like it just makes your calls sound better. Just turn the thing on. I don't understand what the problem is. But Apple has always sort of hidden it underneath a setting. And my assumption would be that a lot of this would be hidden underneath the setting. But it sounds increasingly like it's not. And that once you take the test and it understands your ears, it just kind of happens. Yeah.

1:02:22Yeah, it's pretty true. So like there's the hearing aid mode. There's also this media assist half of it to where it tunes like your music and your phone calls and videos based off like all your data from your hearing test. So all those things sound clear as well. So that's nice. So yeah, it's like a very comprehensive, all-encompassing feature that's just kind of there, just always there in the background, just working. And so, yeah, there's not much to do. Like you can turn it all, some of it off. Hearing aid obviously can turn on or off. But hearing protection is just there, which should be the case, obviously.

1:02:53And so, yeah, there's not much to do or tinker with or get wrong or mess up yourself, which I think is super important, especially because there are going to be older people using these features who don't want to have to dig through settings many use to tinker with stuff. And so that's a big deal. Yeah, I don't know. It's just there. It's simple. It is very Apple. We say that a lot. It just works. This mostly has just worked. So I'm very curious to see how it compares to other options on the market, like people's deep dives and the hearing aid functionality and all that. Yeah. Have you heard anything from the kind of hearing aid community so far?

1:03:23Not much. I've been trying to chat folks up, but I guess, you know, they're a busy bunch, these audiologists. That's true. So hopefully pretty soon I'll be able to sit down with somebody and get some context. But it seems like people are pretty optimistic and hopeful that this is going to be at least, you know, push the whole industry forward towards like making all this, you know, more affordable and that whole trend. Yeah, I mean, we've been waiting for a few years now since that bill passed for this kind of over-the-counter hearing aid revolution that we were expecting. And I think years ago, people were expecting ultimately this, right?

1:03:55Which I think is actually very cool. Apple sort of delivered the thing people have been asking for, which is give me something that looks like a pair of headphones that doesn't scream medical device, but gives me some of the help that I need. And I think I'm going to be fascinated to see how Apple communicates that line between here is who they're for and here is who they're not. That, like, even where you fall on the audiogram test, if it's going to, like, throw up a thing that's like, go see a doctor immediately about your hearing. Or if it's just more gentle about it, like, we can help, but only so much.

1:04:27It's pretty gentle in my experience. Like, the test is very, like, low stress. It's like, this is all normal. Hearing loss is normal. These are your results. Everything's fine. but we did call 911 on your behalf just now. Talk to a doctor if you have any questions. Yeah. And it makes me wonder if this is going to be the beginning of that movement that we've been seeing. Because I think there is one version of the outcome here that says Apple is actually way ahead of some of these other companies and health stuff and has been working on this a lot longer and has a lot more of the expertise and a lot more of the corporate lock-in to make some of this stuff work.

1:05:00And I think there's truth to some of that. But also, Google and Samsung ought to be able to do this kind of thing pretty well pretty quickly. Is there any reason you think Apple might have some insurmountable lead here? Or is this just going to become the next feature of all of these headphones? I think it'll be the next feature in time. I think Apple got a head start just because they've focused on this vertical integration of all their hardware for so long that they've had to jump on these features. But I'm sure in time, like Samsung and Google. I'm not sure how other companies would get involved.

1:05:31like Sennheiser and Sony, like what are they going to do? Like being just like third party. Sony has some like over-the-counter hearing aids, but like that's not quite the same thing as like this thing that's tied to your phone and like knows what you're listening to and like how to make that sound better at all times. So it's curious, like I'm curious if Apple's going to like run ads about these features like on TV. Like that'll be fascinating. But I think there's just going to be like a big push of like awareness, hearing health, because that's, you know, very easy to take for granted until, you know, you start losing some of it over time.

1:06:01And thankfully, I'm still in good shape. I've got random outs of tinnitus, tinnitus, however that's pronounced. Random outs of that like once or twice a month where I hear just a little like ringing in my ears. But if that's the worst that I've had through 40 years so far, then I'll take that. Yeah, that's not so bad. You could just print out and frame the audiogram results there. That's pretty good. Before I let you go, anything else in the software update here? I mean, Apple basically announced these things like they were a brand new product. despite it just being a software update to a set of existing headphones.

1:06:33You've been using the software update for a while now. Anything else to report? I mean, that's the reason that I would update to iOS 18.1. You know, if you don't care about all the AI stuff in Apple Intelligence, this is a great reason to get all these new features. You can't do it on iOS 18.0 or any previous version, so you have to update if you want all these AirPods features. So if you don't care about the AI stuff, which I do like the summarize notifications on iOS 18.1, they're pretty handy. But as far as like other like AirPods stuff, you know, the head nods are there. They work fairly well.

1:07:03Do you use them? Be honest. I've tried them. I turn them off pretty quickly. They worked, you know. I'm sure there are people who love like all these like very niche features. And so, you know, people like love having Siri like read their notifications out loud. I would never want that to be my situation. No, to me, it's just the penalty for having the nod and head shake on and get it wrong is that like I answer a phone call that I don't want to in the wrong. That you very clearly shook your head vigorously not to answer. Yeah, exactly. I know enough about this technology to know that that stuff is imperfect.

1:07:37And just the penalty for being wrong once terrifies me. Even now when I'm in the car or whatever and it's like, so-and-so is calling, would you like to answer? I never have said the word no more clearly than I do in those moments. And still I'm afraid that something is going to go wrong. So I think making that stuff even simpler seems like a good idea. but also I feel like raises the stakes for what could go wrong. So we'll see how all of that turns out. But I do think there is probably a long road of interesting stuff to do there. I'm just not convinced it's yes and no. Right. Yeah, there's some way to do head nods in AR, I'm sure.

1:08:16There are all these rumors of AirPods with cameras on them, which seems so bizarre to me, but I'm sure there's a purpose for that. I just want to be able to quickly do a double shake of my head to skip songs. It's just like, no, no, no, not this one. Go to the next one. Yeah, exactly. Or just like make a face and it just skips. Like immediately add that to my not interested list on Spotify and go to the next one. That's all I want. Exactly. All right, Chris, thank you as always. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, David. All right, we got to take one more break and then we're going to come back and do one of my favorite VertiCast hotline questions in a while.

1:08:50We'll be right back.

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1:11:50All right, we're back. Let's get to the hotline. As always, the number is 866-VERGE-11. One, the email is vergecast at theverge.com. We love all of your questions, and we try to answer at least one on the show every week. I've been promising a full hotline episode for a while, and that is coming. We just, there's too much going on. If they could just stop with the news for a minute, I'd love to do a hotline episode. But I think that's coming. I'm very excited about it. So get all your questions in, all of your weird tech mysteries, all of the things you want us to just ruminate endlessly on, and we'll get to them all.

1:12:20This week, we have a very fun question about video games. Hey, Burgecast. My name is Brian. I'm in North Carolina near-ish Epic and limited-run games for context. I've had this question ever since you had Riley tested on the show about Delta and emulation on iOS. It came up again at the tail end of your Origins of Podcasting episode. Apple has a gaming problem. Why don't they just buy Nintendo? I know they have enough liquid capital sitting around that they could purchase the entirety of that company like you or I could go buy a Switch. So what's stopping them? Is it Lena Khan? Does that matter if the company isn't American?

1:12:59Is it that they don't actually care about games? Would Nintendo say no to a Scrooge McDuck-sized pile of Apple cash? So that's my question. Why doesn't Apple solve its problem with gaming by eating Nintendo? What stops it from doing that? And just for fun, what would the world look like if it did. Thanks for talking about this. I've been sitting with this in my head for literal months, and I'm more than happy for it to sit in your heads instead. I need to go do other things now. Thanks, Mike. All right. I have brought The Verge's foremost Nintendo expert, Andrew Webster, here to help me with this.

1:13:33Andrew, hello. Hello. So I caught you in the middle of writing a piece. Would you just briefly describe the piece that you're working on? Because I think it's a useful set up for what we're doing here. Oh, well, now I have to write it. But the working headline is I have given up on guessing what Nintendo is going to do, which is a conclusion I've come to after covering them for like, I don't know, 15 years or so. So I want to separate this into two pieces. There is the why doesn't Apple buy a Nintendo piece of it. And there is the what would the world look like if Nintendo were owned by Apple.

1:14:08And I feel like in the first case, the answer seems very straightforward, which is that anyone would seems like they would want to buy Nintendo, right? Like everyone given the opportunity would, including Apple, I assume, would leap to buy Nintendo. Do you think that's true? Yeah, I think what's stopping them is obviously Nintendo. Nintendo has Scrooge McDuck piles already and they just keep getting more and more. So there's not really any reason for them to sell. And I do think that that point about Apple not caring about gaming is very true. I'm like, in addition to being The Verge's foremost Nintendo expert, I'm also our only Apple Arcade expert.

1:14:51And it is a great service that is just nobody knows about because Apple does not care. And I also don't think Apple thinks it has a gaming problem because it makes a lot of money from games and not the kind of games that Nintendo makes. Yeah, I think the question of like, would Apple be interested in making the next Zelda game is actually really interesting. I think Apple is very happy running a store in which it gets cuts of the work that other people do. And if we've learned one thing about the gaming industry in the last couple of years, it's that you spend an awful lot of money making things that may or may not work.

1:15:31And I guess the appeal of Nintendo is that mostly it makes things that work. Its hit rate has got to be better than anybody's, right? Yeah, and I mean, they tried this. I am one of the few people who will say Super Mario Run was an excellent game. Fair. And it was downloaded, I don't know, 200 million times, but not enough people bought it for Nintendo to consider that success. So, like, you've already had Shigeru Miyamoto make a game for the iPhone, and they never followed it up. So, and, you know, Apple Arcade already has a very good Zelda clone, so I think Apple's pretty happy. Yeah. So before we pivot to the what would it look like thing, I just want to I went back after we got this question and found from last summer, summer of 2023, there were all those emails from 2020 that leaked out in the Microsoft case.

1:16:20And one of them was from Phil Spencer to a couple of folks on his team about Nintendo. And I think he pretty neatly, I think, sums up everyone's feelings about Nintendo in general. And he says, I totally agree that Nintendo is the prime asset for us in gaming. And today gaming is our most likely path to consumer relevance. This is they're talking about Xbox, obviously. I've had numerous conversations with the LTE of Nintendo about tighter collaboration and feel like if any U.S. company would have a chance with Nintendo, we are probably in the best position. This is the best part. The unfortunate or fortunate for Nintendo situation is that Nintendo is sitting on a big pile of cash.

1:16:51They have a board of directors that until recently has not pushed for further increases in market growth or stock appreciation. and his basic thing is like I don't know what to give Nintendo they don't want our money they don't want our resources they're very happy being Nintendo and I feel like that is why no one has bought Nintendo because Nintendo is super happy being Nintendo yeah we think of Nintendo as this playful company you know Miyamoto is like happy-go-lucky guy but they're a ruthless corporation that extracts as much money from everything as they can yeah good luck finding Zelda on sale ever Right, right.

1:17:28I mean, what, the Switch is eight years old now and it's still doing just fine. Like, Nintendo knows exactly what it's doing. And yeah, like, to the, would they accept any offer? I'm sure there's a number. Everybody always has a number. But at some point, Nintendo's market cap, I think I was looking this morning, is like$62 billion. And that's a big number. And at some point, I'm sure there is a number, but I bet that number is substantially higher than anybody thinks it is for what it would take to actually get that done. But since you brought up Apple Arcade, I just want to fantasize for a minute here.

1:18:01Let's say Apple decides to write a check for, you know, all of the cash it has,$250 billion, and it owns Nintendo. What do you think Apple would do with Nintendo? That is like, I've been thinking about this, and I feel like there's two avenues, one of which is good and will not be successful, and one of which is bad and will make a ton of money. That sounds right. The one is the Apple Arcade route, which is like, yeah, you can play like Mario 3 and Mario Wonder and like all these games on your phone. And Nintendo has access to the hardware in a way that they do when they make their own hardware and can make things that are perfectly suited for it.

1:18:40Again, Mario 1 is good. It's a game designed for a touchscreen. They know what they're doing. That's like a dream scenario, by the way. That's a dream scenario. You get to emulate all the games on your Apple devices. it becomes this like incredible place for Nintendo to put everything it's ever made, including all the new stuff. Like that sounds awesome. Yeah. And that's what people say they want, but not enough people most likely would actually pay the money for it. And what's more likely to happen is, so Mario Run, I keep bringing it up. It was generally a failure for them, but they have had several successful mobile games, which are, there's Animal Crossing one, there's Fire Emblem one, and they are just filled with all of the free-to-play bullshit, that everyone hates but they make so much money they're still running and um even though nintendo has forgotten about mobile gaming they don't turn those switches off because they get money and that is how apple makes its money from gaming so um i think the dire scenario is you know loot boxes and animal crossing right or loot boxes in tears of the kingdom right like that's that's where this starts to get really dark yeah which of course ruins tears of the kingdom in a And so it's like, maybe there is something about the way that Nintendo works right now that is the reason it's able to do the things that it does.

1:19:55Like, maybe it's stick it inside of a corporation that is much more worried about maximizing growth, and it changes all of the incentives here. Like, maybe the way we have it is actually the correct way to have it. Yeah, Mario Wonder exists when I was talking to the directors because they were like, we're not going to have a deadline. We're just going to let people come up with ideas and when it's ready, it's ready. And then it was, you know, the best Mario in a decade. So that's how it happens. Yeah. Yeah. So do you think there is a world in which this ever happens in the time that we're doing this?

1:20:29Like, Nintendo's been around forever. We've given up guessing what's going to happen with Nintendo. Is this just, Nintendo's out here making alarm clocks, not worrying about like live service games. You know what I mean? Like, is this just Nintendo forever, do you think? if you can turn it around after the Wii U I think like you're safe they're they don't have to worry about it they're Nintendo fair enough alright before I let you go do you know anything about the Switch 2? can you blink twice if you know what's going on with the Switch 2? I got nothing yeah fair enough alright Andrew thank you appreciate it alright that is it for the Vergecast today thank you to everybody who came on the show and thank you as always for listening there is lots more on everything we talked about V's Smart Ring Battle Royale Chris's story about all of the hearing health stuff in the AirPods, all of our coverage of what's been going on with Nintendo and Apple and gaming and everything.

1:21:21We'll put a bunch of links in the show notes, but there's lots more going on on TheVerge.com. It's a good website. We like it a lot. As always, if you have thoughts, questions, feelings, or a price you think is fair to buy Nintendo, you can always email us at vergecast at TheVerge.com. Call the hotline 866-VERGE-11. We love hearing from you. I confess I recently have done a really bad job of looking at the email. Luckily, Liam and the other folks on our team do it better. But I want to be in that inbox more. I love talking to all of you there. And I just suck at email. But I'm going to do better.

1:21:52So get at me. I'm very excited to just randomly email about our feelings about technology with you. This show is produced by Liam James, Will Poore, and Eric Gomez. The Verge Cast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Nilay and I will be back on Friday to talk about more gadgets, more AI stuff, continuing craziness at OpenAI, and lots more. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

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