Apple’s in on RCS — and everybody’s out on Bing

25:24And so to some extent, you'd be crazy to stop doing it. Right. It's like those emails between them where they're like, oh, we should do iMessage for Android. anyone thinking about, you know, returning value to shareholders is going to like shoot you dead with a sniper rifle for having that conversation. Yeah. I think that's what drives it, right? Like they got to return that value. It's a huge business decision. And it's the same with a lot of the things they do that feel like kind of crappy. Yeah. The RAM was a big discussion too this week of like the eight gigabytes of RAM on the MacBook Pro.

25:56And that's something they've been doing for decades at this point is like being kind of cheap on the RAM and then upselling you via them and soldering in the RAM and all of this stuff. Because, yeah, it makes them extra money in their company and their job is to make money. Tim Cook does have that sniper's eye. He does. It's a real thing. The last thing I'll say about this and we should move on. You go back to that code clip. Tim says, I don't see our customers asking for this. I can see our traffic. I can see how many people are reading about the iPhone supporting RCS today. It's just, look, we saw earlier this week the Target CEO said something similar.

26:32He was like, yeah, I don't see customers asking us to take all the shampoo out of the lockboxes. They're saying thank you. Yeah. And it's like, what customers are you talking to, Tim or Target CEO? Like, who? Well, but this is the thing. They're not, people aren't asking for RCS. Like, I genuinely believe nobody is emailing Tim Cook except for, like, Dieter saying, why don't you support RCS? Yes. I think he's Tim at Apple dot com. If you want to send him a note, I don't know if he reads them or not, but he gets them. But what people reasonably can and should ask for is my mom can't send me a picture.

27:07Right. Like that is the thing. And I think whether by regulatory reasons or because Apple just decided this is not the hill to die on, which I don't think is the case, I'm pretty sure it's just regulatory reasons. like it's going to get better for those people, even if they don't understand the underlying technology, because they shouldn't have to. And this is the thing that Apple always says it does, right? Is it's like, we are going to make good decisions for you and not require you to think about it. And what it has done in this case, to your earlier point, Eli, is over and over, not give people the better option, even though it existed.

27:41So it is good news to see it finally happening, even if it's clearly not out of just like the goodness of Apple's heart. And again, the execution, I think it was Nathan on our team brought up the phrase malicious compliance today. We have to see. This is where I was going to complain about USB-C. Are you ready for this? And then we'll end it. The number of devices I have now where all the manufacturer has done is take out the micro USB port and put in a USB-C port without the corresponding. And this is like two resistors they need to put in there. But they haven't done it. So you can only charge with a USB-A to USB-C cable.

28:20It's like an increasing number of devices. What are these devices? So it's everything from like our extremely stupid milk frother that we use to stir protein powder into water. That one feels like your fault. But like we just bought it and I was like USB-C it's great. And then I have one of those Lumen metabolism trackers that V really likes. This is like a gadget, like a Silicon Valley venture funded gadget company. They just went boop. USB-A to USB-C. And it's like the whole range. I've got all kinds of people on threads right now just listing the gadgets they have that are broken in this specific way.

28:55And the thing that has not been done, I've learned all about this today. The thing that has not been done is when you call for power from USB-C charger, you can either do it the complicated way and send data and do the thing. or you can just have two little resistors that tell it, just send me five volts. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole penny. Like just standard thing. Yeah. And people aren't doing it. You can't just spend in those pennies like that, just willy-nilly. And so the manufacturers are cheaping out and everyone is having to stock USB-A to USB-C. It's driving me bananas. That would be like brutal.

29:29You get to the hotel room and you just want to froth some milk and you're like, oh, I left my USB-C to USB-A cable at home. That's brutal. Anyway, I'm just saying you can impose the standard. It does not mean people will not be idiots. This is like the right to repair stuff that's happening right now with like parts pairing becoming a big issue where it's like, okay, sure. Technically, you can repair your Apple devices, but the parts that exist are digitally paired to the product itself. So, yes, in theory, you can take it apart. But can you actually do anything with all the different pieces? No, you can't.

30:05It's like, did we solve anything here? Here's a list from threads. It's a Chinese walkie talkies. Somebody pointed out to me that they have like Amazon Alphabet Soup brand, off-brand massage guns, like a Theragun, but like an off-brand. So, you know what I mean? Headphones. Apparently, headphones are the worst of these offenders. I bet Beats. Lots of USB-C headphones are actually USB-A in secret. I bet all the Beats headphones. Apple. Apple's just like, F you. Yeah, they're not. I'm just like, it's out there. You can see a USB-C port and the number of ways things can go wrong for you just keeps steadily increasing.

30:42I don't like it. Anyhow. Look, I think the European Union should keep doing stuff. Like our government isn't. I was like, it would be nice if the government of the country that actually uses iMessage did something. Oh, fine. They're on iMessage. Yeah. You think Lena Khan has an Android phone? Get out of here. All right. We got to take a break. We're going to stop complaining about governments. Come back and complain about AI. See, it's going to be great. It's the first cast. We'll be right back.

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33:43Okay, we're back. Lots of AI news this week. Microsoft had a conference. They rebranded some things we'll get into. YouTube has a new deepfake policy, which is actually Intention, Google's AI tools, which is fascinating. There's kind of a lot going on. Let's start with Microsoft. What happened at this conference? They announced new processors. That's what you want to talk about, right? That's all I want to talk about. All you want to talk about? I did the entire code conference. I asked every single person about NVIDIA H100 chips, and they all said, man, that's a real real issue. The entire AI industry runs on one set of chips.

34:13Yeah, which is why it is no surprise that when Jensen Huang, the CEO of NVIDIA, showed up at Microsoft Ignite after they just announced a bunch of processors to compete with his, was still there saying generative AI is the single most significant platform transition in computing history. I would absolutely expect that from a man who is a billionaire because of generative AI. Then he tapped his humane AI pin and vanished. But yeah, so obviously the actual big news that happened was they're getting rid of Bing chat. They're changing the name of it. It is now going to be Microsoft Copilot. I love how we're like, this is the biggest news.

34:51It is the biggest news. And it's funny news because it was just earlier this year. They're like, Bing chat. It's going to be Bing. It's all about Bing. And they're like, no, we finally figured out an actual good name. And it's Copilot now. Don't worry about that Bing. Is good name what we're going with for Copilot here? There's like there's Bing and it's it's an all right name. Copilot I feel like is better for a generative AI assistant that like you're supposed to be friends sort of with. Well, there's some history here. First of all, there's like a lot of history with Bing. Yes. Not of all of it good.

35:25Not all of it good. Then we were just talking. It's like we're coming up on one year since chat GPT hit. And so it's been a wild year. In the middle of that year, you will recall, Microsoft held its event where they announced Bing chat. Yeah. Yeah. And they're going to make Google sweat. Dance. Dance. That's right. This is to me. Nadella said to me, we're going to make, I want, I want Google to dance and I want people to know that we made them dance, which is to this day, the coldest thing a CEO has ever said. That's what Snow White said to the evil stepmom at the end of the. I want people to know I made you dance.

35:59Just try saying that in your day to day life. Just walk up to anyone, you know, and be like, I want them to dance and I want you to know that I made them dance. There are so few moments where that isn't even close to appropriate. I'm going to open the next staff meeting that way. I want Wired to dance, and I want people to know that we made them dance. I mean that, by the way. If you're at Wired, start dancing. We're friends. It's all fine. It just happened. It's because you're not here, David. Yeah, we're just losing our minds over here. We're having a great time. So Nadella says this thing, and he follows that up, and he said this to a lot of people.

36:36any scrap of market share that he can take from Google represents billions of dollars. Yeah. They took zero scraps of market share from Google. That's not true. They probably took like a scrap. My$9 coffee this morning. That's what they took. It was a win for Bing in that we talked more about Bing this year than we have cumulatively in the history of the universe. Yeah. But also. They also pointed out that naming things at Microsoft scale is impossible. Sure. right the sort of trademark reviews and legal reviews and does this word mean a dirty word another language is all very difficult and like bing is just sitting here and actually no one ever thinks about it at all it's like the opposite of a name right we're just gonna see what happens whereas it's like what does copilor mean in france like you're screwed it's a real problem and the answer is what bing means to most people is that it definitely tried to bang kevin roos on the front page of the new york times and it got i would say in its feelings with ben thompson and trajectory.

37:33I don't think that's true. I think that massively overstates both of those things. That's what it means to me. But that is the story they got from Bing, was the front page of the Times saying this thing declared its love to me. They announced Bing. I just looked at the Google Trends data. More people were talking about Bing after the sad passing of Matthew Perry who played Chandler Bing than when Bing pivoted to Bing chat. That's not tragic. It's not official official numbers. But it's sad. But it's truth that like Bing is a rebranding big moment was not as perhaps successful. Yeah. No one's banging it.

38:09Yeah. And then I think there's the problem that it lies to you all the time, which is if you're trying to replace search, just a real problem. And we have written so many stories about what is going on with Google search and the SEO community has responded with such aggressively SEO optimized responses to us. It's great. They're obviously going to outrank us in the end. But Bing as a product was not better than search. It was not better than Google search. I think Google's own search generative experience, which is in beta, is a fascinating product. It is not actually, at this point, better than search.

38:44Yeah, Tom did our post kind of announcing this rebranding, and I thought he was really clear on like Bing wasn't succeeding as this search product, but it does actually succeed with helping people figure out spreadsheets and stuff like that. And that's what Microsoft is good at. And so like, OK, realizing that search isn't actually their way forward with generative AI, but it's actually as a tool to help this like productivity software, that's a smart move. And I want to make fun. I'd love to make fun of Bing and Bing chat and all of that. But what they did here was like, it was smart. It was the right move.

39:17What's really funny to me is I think Microsoft got this exactly backwards. Like if you rewind to like February, March, Microsoft was confident that Bing was going to be the front end for ChatGPT, right? That it was going to be, this was going to be how most people interact with this cool new AI technology. OpenAI was just going to like keep building the underlying technology. It launched ChatGPT as like a science project. Like it's it's it continues to be important to remember that no one at OpenAI or anywhere else thought ChatGPT was going to be as big as it was. And so Microsoft is like, we can build the front end for this thing.

39:55And it turns out it got exactly backwards where ChatGPT is the front end for this thing. And Bing is the real time web index that you can attach to that. Like Bing is now infrastructure to these other things rather than being like the main consumer product. And I think Copilot as a way into some of that is fine. And they'll keep attaching Copilot to everything. And I think the Copilot name is ridiculous because there's Copilot, but then there's Copilots, which are the same but different and live in different apps. And it's one thing, but it's lots of things. And I don't get it at all. Apple TV and TV Plus.

40:30Yes, it's just this is worse, actually, I think. Yeah, you're right. But I think we got to this point where Bing had a minute where it was like, we are going to be the consumer brand we have never successfully been able to be by being a different front end onto the same sort of basic need and just whiffed it. Because ChatGPT and OpenAI just absolutely completely ate its lunch. Yeah. And then the extensibility of ChatGPT is much more interesting than anything Bing did. Totally. I mean, Bing is trying – well, Bing. Microsoft is trying that too. One of the other things they announced was Copilot Studios, which basically does the same thing that OpenAI is doing.

41:08Pretty natural text ways to, like, program new bots. And in that case, I'm almost like, ooh, Microsoft is probably much better equipped to handle a big store of bots than OpenAI, which we talked about last week. Yeah. It's clearly not ready for that. So, like, I'm not going to just immediately throw Microsoft out and say they lost this and they screwed it up. I think like they've pivoted in a probably really smart direction to still stay a part of this conversation. But like Bing is done. It's like this whole is it Bing's moment? It's not. Microsoft is a big winner in all of this, I think, in a big way.

41:43It's like I think what it's done with Copilot, stupid name aside, is really smart. Right. It's like Microsoft has leaned into what are actually its core competencies, which is like putting helpful tools into apps that people use. Right. Like AI to help you turn your spreadsheets into slide decks is just an unbelievably good idea. And I think there is an overwhelming chance that Microsoft is going to be better at that than anybody for a long time. A lot of this stuff Microsoft is working on is about Azure as much as anything, right? Like that's the reason they got in bed with OpenAI in the first place was what OpenAI needed was compute.

42:16So Microsoft is going to build this compute and then there's going to be a ton of competitors to OpenAI, all of whom are going to use Azure because Microsoft is ahead. Like Microsoft is going to win in a big, big, big way here. it just isn't going to win in like the cool way if that makes sense like it's not gonna be the number one app in the app store winner it's just going to do what microsoft always does which is be like kind of nerdy and quiet and make so much money that's the microsoft way except for with the xbox 360 and the xbox one i mean they did promise to reinvent the television thing it didn't it didn't happen actually this brings me to the other thing they announced which i think is super fascinating.

42:53It's Windows app. Yes. Where you can now just download an app that will run Windows on the iPhone, the iPad, the Mac, and PCs, which is, it makes sense once you think about it for two seconds, but it's also just one of the funniest, right? It's just a virtualized. I'm going to like pimp my ride, like, yo dog, I hear you like Windows. It's just funny on its face. It's like conceptually makes perfect sense that if you're going to sell virtualized Windows, you should be able to run it on a PC. but it is just kind of like windows is now an app to run on your windows is very good it is i think this is one of the smartest moves that they've made in a long time because it allows them to continue getting value out of the windows software ecosystem even as everyone kind of runs away from it i mean it's to the point of the interoperability conversation we had just just in the segment before this this is like just much more user friendly.

43:47It doesn't say, hey, go buy a whole Windows PC to check out this app or whatever that you need to work on. You don't have to do that. And that's nice. So it's not for consumers yet. It's still in testing. There's no Android version yet. It's very much for enterprise. It streams. It's streaming basically it's a remote desktop, but it can stream Windows from a remote PC of your own, Azure Virtual Desktop, Windows 365, Microsoft DevBox, and Microsoft Remote Desktop services. But it's called Windows App, which is, it's just very funny. I feel bad because I really like Parallels, which is the virtualization software to run Windows on a Mac and if I can just do that, I probably would just do that.

44:26Well, so Parallels, is it doing great on M-series chips? That makes sense. I don't know the answer to that question. Yeah, I don't know either, actually. My wife's business runs on a Windows app that she runs in Parallels on an Intel Mac and we have not upgraded it because I'm her IT guy. Yeah. And I'm just like, you just keep using that Intel Mac. You just keep going. I got a 2015 iMac up here in case you ever need a bigger screen. And I've been waiting for basically this solution for quite some time. But I think you're just watching Windows stop being tied to a computer in the way that I think obviously the Mac, like macOS is very tied to a machine.

45:06Windows is now like a very distributed application layer. It turns Windows into a web browser in a really important and interesting way that it's like, instead of having all of your stuff be web apps or whatever, you can functionally have them all still look and feel and work like local apps with all of the upsides of being available everywhere. Like Microsoft is getting huge on edge, right? As kind of the front end to the next generation of software, but it can keep with Windows, which is actually a really smart, like backwards compatibility thing, because there are all these people in the world who are like, I am not going to use the Excel web app because gross.

45:45And I have a bunch of stuff that doesn't work on the web, but I need it to work on my computer. And this buys Microsoft such runway to like go after whatever is next, because you can either have a Windows machine or you can run a Windows machine on any kind of screen. It just, it makes it so much stickier. I think this is so smart from Microsoft. Also, I have an answer to your parallels question. I Googled it. Can I just read you the bleakest sentence that I've read in a while? Yeah. You didn't bing it? I cogied it if you really want to know, but we can come back to that later. It says to run Windows 11 and its applications on a Mac with Apple Silicon, you need to install an ARM-based image of Windows 11 that can run the majority of Intel-based Windows 11 applications by using a built-in emulator.

46:25Womp womp. Whoa. It's like a hat on a hat on a hat to get parallel. Oh, that's brutal. I'm just sending her the link to Windows app, seeing what happens next. There's like one application that makes the entire one part of the legal system in New York State go. Is it word perfect? And it's just like one dude made one app and all the lawyers use it. And that's the whole industry. that's such a perfect example because every industry has one of those they all run on windows and they all have not been updated in 15 years and like nila you and i have both spent time with windows executives over the years who are like desperate to figure out how to solve that problem because they're like we can't move forward in the ways that we know we need to move forward and also continue to support the like hundreds of millions of users who use 15 year old software and need it to do their jobs.

47:16And like this, this is one big step in bridging that gap in a really smart way. When I called that company, which is like, again, like four people. And I said, Hey, I'm installing some parallels on a Mac. They just moved through a worksheet because so many of their customers are people who want to use Macs and they need this one app. And they were just like, they were just ready for me. The one I ran into is for the longest time, if you wanted to, like there's this thing called beef check off and it for cattle and stuff and it's it's not beef check the sam chaffer story totally different and and it's very complicated i'm not going to get into all of it but basically you have to scan these tags in order to like register the cattle and make sure that they've been like processed and had all their shots and all of that stuff before we slaughter them and eat them in delicious burgers and the software there's two competing software and the more popular software is cheaper and only runs on windows 98 and so people are like carrying around ancient-ass Dell laptops and stuff.

48:16And I think most of them have moved off. There's very few people left on it, but those very few are like, it's just so much cheaper. It's just so much easier. And you're like, but you are... This is like IMAX running on Palm Pilots. Yeah. What are you doing? Stop it. They're just making America run. Yeah. They're making our burgers. Blue bubbles, livestock, pickup trucks. It's all the same thing. All right, let's take a break. We'll come back. We'll do a little bit of lightning round.

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51:22All right, we're back. Before the lightning round, there's one thing I want to talk about. YouTube this week rolled out a new defect policy. It's very early. We talked to them about it for a while. on youtube there's two there's gonna be two classes of people who get deep faked there's musicians who are basically not allowed to get deep faked if they are on a label that is partnered with youtube your musician and your label isn't partnered with youtube all bets are off but if you're a musician on a label partnered with youtube or the family of a dead musician on a label partnered with youtube no deep fakes do you mean like deep fake videos or like the the ai covers we've been seeing all over the place?

52:05The AI covers. Okay. It's unique rapping or singing voice. The thing where you can sound like Drake is what they're cracking up on. Not allowed on YouTube. And I will tell you, and noisily, this is very public, Universal Music, Drake's label, noisily announced with YouTube that they're doing a deal. So, like, a while ago. So it's very obvious that fake Drake is no longer allowed on YouTube. No exceptions. There's one tiny exception. If you make a video that is news commentary or analysis. Yes. You can have a little bit of, so we're good. We're good. Laser bomb continues. Play laser bomb right now.

52:39What if it's just like sick? Like what if it's just like really good and Drake is like, you know what? You can have this one. So there's no, there's no automated enforcement of this yet. You got to fill out the form. So Drake could presumably choose not to fill out the form. That's what I got for you. They make Drake do it himself. Like Drake, watch this song. Do you like it? Aubrey, sir, can you, we brought you a pen. We brought you this Windows 98 application to fill out this YouTube form. So that's one class of people. Super protected, no AI voices for rapping and singing. If you're on a label that's partnered with YouTube.

53:15Everybody else, all kinds of exceptions, right? Parody, satire, all this stuff. Whether you're a famous person or not, you get less protections. And all of that looks like fair use. Like that is the fair use analysis. Only instead of courts doing it, YouTube is going to do it. And they don't know how they're going to do it yet. So like right now there's a controversy about react videos. There's always a controversy about react videos. Because they're garbage. Well, there's something. Right? And the I'm going to try to sum up the controversy without getting us into the controversy ourselves. People make react videos.

53:51They're like, you made a video. Someone else is just making faces. Sometimes they reuse the faces. They're not even reacting. It's just clips of faces. And then they steal the views, which is a big deal on YouTube because that means you move the money. People get very upset about this. And there's one whole kind of conversation you could have about it. But the conversation that gets had the most frequently is a conversation about copyright law. Why? Because the only thing that can get content removed from the internet reliably is copyright law. It's the only functional speech regulation on the internet.

54:22And you look at YouTube and how it handles copyright law, it just nopes out of the conversation like you send a copyright dmca request to youtube they tell the person that you've sent the request to that person can respond and say no that's not right and then youtube says boy you guys disagree you should go to court and that is that is the end of youtube's involvement right they will pass some emails back and forth between you and they will do their legal obligation to it's called notice and take down like but they will not substantively decide if something is fair use. They will just say, go have your lawyers figured out.

54:56With deepfakes, there's no copyright law yet. There's no court cases. There's nothing. There's no law against deepfakes. There's no federal right of publicity or likeness. So YouTube is bringing it in-house. The same way that YouTube will say, we have rules against things like COVID misinformation or election denial or whatever. And you're like, and how well is that going? How you doing, buddy? Like, it's just as messy. It's super opaque. No one knows how it works. They're not going to publish any precedent. They're not going to have court opinions. You know, YouTube's worry, quite rightly, is if they do that, people will try to game it and find the boundaries.

55:34So they don't want to do it. But then they're going to have to do it because now there's going to be deep fakes. What is a parody? It certainly can't be music because the labels have negotiated themselves more protections. So you just keep winding through this. and one of the rules you're going to have is that you have to label realistic AI generated content especially of like news events you the creator right you're like you the creator on upload if I do a bad AI cover I'm good but if I do a good AI cover I have to tell YouTube that I did a good AI cover no you're not allowed to do AI covers at all because the music labels have forbidden it so what am I what am I labeling so you make a video that's like how the Titanic really sunk and it's just AI generated boat sinking you have to label it to be like this is fake so i can't do drake at all like but i can do the titanic i just have to say this is fake titanic you can't yeah you can't do drake but you can do trump here's here's my question because trump didn't negotiate a label deal with you two here's my question there's a youtube channel right now and all they do is a movie a new movie's announced like a big movie they announce the cast everybody's like oh cool this this youtube channel then goes and makes an AI-generated trailer.

56:43And I just watched one today for Moana, starring Zendaya and The Rock. Oh, my. And it had, like, a horrifying AI rock where his face is, like, morphing. Yeah. And he's also the guy from Moana. So two things. One, on upload, that creator would have to say, this is AI-generated. And then two, through some process, The Rock could submit a form to YouTube and say, I want this taken down. This is a deep fake of my likeness. And then YouTube will go through some analysis, which will be completely opaque, and make a decision. And it will not say why it made those decisions. Third of all, live action Moana is going to kick ass.

57:24Yeah. Fourth of all, Disney is just milking the shit out of these franchises. So we don't know. Isn't this just a content ID thing, right? Like YouTube is... No, because they don't know. They can't do it. They've said to us, they're investing in the tools to detect AI-generated content. Those tools basically do not exist now. Yeah, computers can't recognize computers versus humans. I think you can do it in photo and video and audio to some extent. It's really hard in text. OpenAI had a tool that tried to do it in text, and they pulled it because it was so unreliable. Photo and video and audio, maybe.

57:58I mean, this one was very clearly like, oh, people's faces don't melt like that when they're just supposed to be smiling. There's some stuff, and there's some tip-offs, and maybe the content authenticity initiative will do watermarking. but there's all this stuff you could do is the thing that youtube actually launched here basically just like a form you can fill out to be mad at a video if you're a record label yeah it's a form you can fill out on upload saying i made this with ai and then two forms one that says i'm a major label artist partnered with youtube take this down and another one that says i'm not a major label artist partnered with youtube please take this down okay and they have different rules with the promise of technology to come in the middle somewhere in here all this will happen Do you think we're going to get actors and studios doing it too?

58:40No. You got to go make it. The thing is there's no law. Yeah. There's just YouTube and its business partners desperately trying to get ahead of this problem. And you can see the business pressures are leading to unequal treatment. YouTube desperately needs major labels to be happy. They're going to get. Here they are. They have gotten special treatment. OK. Maybe YouTube needs Hollywood to be happy. Yeah. The next turn will be if you are an actor associated with a movie produced by one of our film studio partners, we'll give you the no exceptions rule. I'm just thinking of which, like, up-and-coming YouTube artist who hasn't signed with a major label I can, like, whole-scale rip off.

59:22Yeah, they're coming. I'm going to make so much money. So I asked a follow-up question, which we'll put on the site. It's on the site yet. Maybe by the time you listen to this, it will be. That means I have to do it. But here is my question that I asked. What if you take a Pixel 8 photo and you run it through Best Take and now you've got a synthetic ultra-realistic photo that was partially generated by AI? Will YouTube require that to be labeled? Can YouTube block you in email form? They're like, here's our story. We're taking you down. Just blocked. But this is the problem, right? You're going to run dead into your own tools.

59:58If you are Google and you run YouTube and you need these rules and then the rest of Google is just running full speed ahead at AI generated content, you are going to quickly run into I can take a series of photos with my Pixel phone and then I can just make things happen that never happened. I mean, forget that. I can type into a prompt in any number of Google products to make the exact thing that is now not allowed on YouTube. Yeah. Like I can get Google to spit out the thing through its image generators. But that's like you're at least doing it, right? You're like, I'm going to go to an AI content tool and it's going to – I think Best Take is on the blurriest of possible.

1:00:38Sure. That's fair. Right. It's like these photos sort of really happened, but they didn't really happen. And now I can like – if you go – I encourage everyone to go watch the ad that Google is running for Best Take. But Best Take doesn't make your photos look like The Rock is in it. Right. But they are showing in Best Take, in the ads they are running now, they are showing people like go from looking at one another to not looking at one another or from smiling to looking. Right. Like just the basics of a photo. Who was looking at what in what direction when? Is that person smiling or frowning?

1:01:12Well, you can just concoct a moment with Best Take. Yeah. And it's in the advertising. It's not this. I know everyone thinks I'm overreacting. I'm saying watch the ad. This is what Google is saying you can do in their own marketing. So I asked YouTube. Here's the response. The goal of this update is helping the viewer to be better informed about content that is realistic but altered, not punishing creators for using AI. There isn't a single standard we can give you that will apply in every case. And as with all decisions like this, context matters. If you're using Best Take to pick an image where everyone's eyes are open, you could have probably done that yourself by taking more photos and likely not something you need to disclose.

1:01:48But if you're using the tech to make it seem like you were in a place that you actually weren't or altering a photo of a historic event, you'll probably need to disclose to your viewers that use technology to alter the setting. That's so many words that literally like to just translate from corporate speak to real words is like, I don't know. That's what that says. Maybe. Could be. If the standard is if you just took infinite photos, you could have gotten this moment. The rock would probably be in one of them. Yeah. It's like, I'm just going to stand here shooting photos until The Rock shows up.

1:02:21It's like, wow. Is that a realistic standard? I think that's a great standard. Anyway, I am fascinated. I told YouTube, I will tell everyone, this question is why The Verge exists. Like, I'm endlessly fascinated by this question, especially for a company like Google, which is full speed ahead making the tools and running the platform. that will be the most impacted by the tools. To the same point, YouTube today announced a tool where singers can let you use AI clones of their voices. Just like running 50 different directions at once. I'm going to do that. Anyone can use my voice for singing. It's very good.

1:03:07I'm telling you, again, this is why The Verge exists. Yeah. Like, I don't know. No one knows the answers to these questions. But I do know that if you stand on any street corner, or any major city in the world and just start shooting photos, statistically, The Rock will be one of those photos. Eventually, The Rock will appear. All right. We should do a lightning round. Yeah. David, you have not yet talked about this silly nothing thing. Do you want that to be out of the lightning round or do you just want to do it? No, let's do that now. That's good. Okay. Which means I get to have two lightning round things.

1:03:36I'm going to pull a Neelai is what we call that. The lightning round, by the way, we are so bad at this. The lightning round is supposed to be like we do lots of things really fast. And instead it's like, we're going to do three and they're all going to take 20 minutes. It's a kind of lightning. Which is, again, I would say we're willing to rebrand for the right sponsor. Like I've gone from sponsor us for the lightning round to sponsor us for anything. You want to call it the triple play? Call it whatever you want. All right. The disclosures are about to be out of control. We just go ahead. Talk about nothing.

1:04:06Okay. So the other part of the messaging news this week was that nothing, the phone maker that we've talked a lot about on the show they release this thing called nothing chats and the big thing that it does is make it so that you can send blue bubble iMessage messages from your nothing phone it only works on the nothing phone too and it works through a company called sunbird which has been sort of loudly proclaiming the technology it has developed for a long time but it's basically it's an elaborate hack of iMessage. And essentially what it does is they put a Mac mini into a server rack somewhere and you create your iCloud account on that Mac mini on a server somewhere.

1:04:51And then that becomes the relay for you to send and receive messages. This is janky as hell for a hundred reasons. It's a security disaster because now all of your messages just live on a computer that you have no access to. And your iCloud password lives on someone's computer. Yes. It's not good. Don't do it. But I mean, do it if you want, but like do it eyes wide open knowing what's going on here. Do it with a burner iCloud account that only says, ha ha, I know you're the cops. So this is the beauty of this, which is you kind of have to because the way that it works, it can't associate with your phone.

1:05:28If you have an Android phone, you can't register it as an iPhone with iCloud. So you have to set it up with your email. And then it does this weird thing where the first thing it sends you is basically a contact merge to try to put your email into your contact card with your phone number so that it all looks like it's coming from you, even though it's just coming from an email address. And it is confusing and messy, but still kind of interesting. And I think like says more about both nothing being interested in like needling Apple. and also the lengths people will go to to be blue bubbles, especially in the United States.

1:06:04This is very clearly a ploy for nothing to sell more phones in the US where it's very hard to sell a phone that isn't a blue bubble. And it's messy and there are better ways to do it. And there's a bunch of these things out there now, like Beeper is doing something very similar with Mac Minis and iMessage. There's this app, text.com, that just got bought by Matt Mullenweg and Automatic. They have a different security system where because it lives on your device, it's actually connecting locally to your computer, but that means it doesn't work on mobile and they're having to do a bunch of work to get it to work on mobile.

1:06:35So it's, everybody's hacking around it and they're all making the same bet, which is that like Apple won't pick this fight because it's bad PR for Apple to pick this fight. And I think that's probably true, but I also think Apple could essentially wipe this all away in 10 minutes if it felt like it. And we'll see. Without question. Yeah. But I do think the idea that nothing pressured Apple into making any decisions, which is what nothing would like you to believe. That's lunacy. And you should not sign up for this. I don't know how much more I can say you should not send your messages through an insecure third party.

1:07:11I mean, I think you should because then one day I'm going to get access to those messages and read them on the Verge cast. Here's a very bad piece of Supreme Court precedent that you can just all muddle over. It's called the third party doctrine. states just very bluntly that if you hand any of your information to a third party, you have no expectation of privacy in that information anymore. And this blows people's minds left and right. You put something on a cloud server, your expectation of privacy is gone. And it's like, is that true? Are we like there's like the people who think that, which is a bunch of judges and prosecutors, and then there's everyone else.

1:07:50And it feels like those people should talk to you. How does that work for things like lawyers writing anything in Google Docs or Microsoft Office? It's a real problem. It's a real problem. This is why I'm not a lawyer. It's too much work. This is a problem in tech policy for 10 million years. But yeah, if you have something on the cloud server, they can go subpoena the cloud server provider and there's no recourse because of the third party doctrine. So yeah, everybody go use this. Go use Sunburst. I really want to read all of your texts. Again, the only message you should ever send through this service is, ha ha cops, you can't get me.

1:08:25And you should just do that 100 times a day. All right, Alex, what's your lightning round? Mine is Antonio got to play with the PlayStation Portal, not to be confused with the PlayStation Portable, otherwise known as the PSP, which also had a little appearance this week. And was a much better device. Yeah, it was a great device. And it was in the trailer for Madam Web, which is a new Marvel film. and you don't need to care about it. But the trailer's really dumb. So the PlayStation Portal is the new device that plays all the PlayStation games from your PS5 on this little device in your house. Yeah.

1:09:03That's about it. Yeah. It's got things like an airplane mode, but you don't need airplane mode because... Does it only work on Wi-Fi? Yeah. What is it? Antonio was very upset about the airplane mode. He's like, why is it here? he's got a bigger review coming up. Airplane's somewhat famous for having Wi-Fi now. Yeah. Okay. Some of them. Delta, very inconsistent. Delta's switching from GoGo to Viasat and it's not going well. It is not. Yeah. But yeah, he likes that it's very easy. He likes that it just works. He likes that it's$200. We both agree that if it's like$150, it'd probably be in that like, I want to play PlayStation in my bed.

1:09:41This seems cool. And he says we've both used Chiaki, which is another kind of way to stream this stuff usually to the Steam Deck. We both tried that. We liked it, but it's really buggy, and this is way less buggy than that. But it is also$200 and does exactly one thing, which is play your PlayStation 5 games in your house over Wi-Fi on this thing. This is like a slight overstatement because I can't think of a lesser way of putting this, but this is like a very polished turd of a device. Yeah. No, I think that's fair. Antonio and I were having a conversation about why this exists because that's the big question is why.

1:10:19And we think it's probably like started as probably a much more ambitious project that slowly got pared down into this. Because like you would think this would just be good for cloud gaming. The airplane mode is like real evidence that someone thought cloud gaming would be a thing. Yeah. I suspect this is probably – Someone got drunk at a 5G cloud conference. Right. And they're like, we should do a PlayStation portal. and then they're like, this doesn't work. Yeah, and then they realized, oh, we need a stronger processor if we're going to basically put a web browser on this little screen so we can play all the games and not PlayStation games.

1:10:52I'm not approving this until they do banana surgery. And they're not going to do it on this guy. But, you know, if all you want to do is play PlayStation, not on your PlayStation, but in your house, it's really cool, but you probably don't need to buy it until it's a lot cheaper. Yeah. And it probably will go on fire sale at some point. I'm super buying one of these when it goes on sale. I just bought a Backbone controller. They have the new one that just came out with USB-C, so it works on most devices now. I just bought one. It is so much better an idea than this for half the price. Not only will it play my games remotely because those things exist as apps, it does all the other things too.

1:11:32I think you're absolutely right that when PlayStation started building this, it was going to be much more ambitious than it is now. And what's weird to me is that Sony, which loves an expensive gadget, didn't just build the good thing and charge a lot of money for it. I don't think they could have because then it would have been like, OK, you can play all your cloud games and PlayStation makes most of its money not from the PlayStation, but from the games. Also, it just doesn't work that well. Like that cloud gaming is not a mobile product in a way that works well. I did like 10, 15 hours of The Last of Us 2 via Chiaki, mainly because I was scared of zombies.

1:12:11But you were probably at your house. Yeah, I was still at my house. I'm saying when you leave the world with a mobile device, when you leave the world. When you're in space. I'm saying when you leave your house with a mobile device and you're trying to stream The Last of Us 2 on a 5G connection from an underpowered handheld, it's not going to happen. It's a lot rougher experience. You can still do it. And The Backbone is a great example. You can still do this stuff, but I've tried using the Backbone and other ones for cloud gaming remote, and I'm like, this is going to be great. Nightmarish experience, and the minute someone texts me, I'm like, okay, I've got to go look at the text, and then it takes me 45 minutes just to reconnect to the cloud gaming.

1:12:50It's no good. Yeah, it's no good. It's no fun. It's going to happen one day. One day. Sony, I think Sean Hollister has reported that Sony has hires for a cloud gaming service. Microsoft obviously thinks cloud gaming is the future. Well, Sony has cloud gaming, and it was a first player. because it bought a big cloud gaming Gaikai. Right. Years ago. And so it's had all of this tech just sitting there and it's like, nah. Sony just doesn't want you to know that it has cloud gaming. It's like when all the cable companies were trying to pretend that streaming didn't exist. They were like, don't worry about it.

1:13:22It's fine. No one cares about that. It's not a big deal. Speaking of the 5G revolution. Oh God. Which has obviously impacted every corner of our lives. Yeah. I was doing banana surgery in a self-driving car just today on AT &T 5G. Was it like in a video game? While gaming. Oh, wow. So I've been saying for months and months and months, I can't think of 5G experiences meaningful to people outside of the Ares tour. And this is where the story about whether or not they did remote surgery on a banana came from because everyone sent me a video of robot surgery on a banana. It's fake. Was not done over 5G.

1:14:05They did do the surgery on the banana. But the caption saying it was over 5G, none of that was real. Great. So I reached out to AT &T and I said, can you give me some data on the Eras Tour? Just give me a sense of scale. I've been saying this thing, right? Eras Tour, they're playing huge NFL stadiums. Anywhere between 50 ,000 and 100 ,000 people in these stadiums across the world that she's playing in. Around 70. Like Cowboy Stadium is like AT &T Stadium, 80 ,000 people. So AT &T was very kind to me, which historically, given our coverage, AT &T, they do not have to be. They were very kind to me.

1:14:37And they sent me a chart of data usage during the Aero Store. So this is just AT &T. I asked Timo and Verizon, less interested. AT &T is very excited. And we went back and forth in a week because I kept asking for more and more numbers. Alex watched this all go down sitting next to me in the office. Okay, these numbers are bonkers. So AT &T Stadium, which is where the Cowboys play, the highest night of the era's tour, 28.9 terabytes of data are flowing through AT &T's wireless network. And they gave me the 5G plus numbers, which in this case means millimeter wave. AT &T is also branded mid-band 5G plus.

1:15:16It's very confusing. But this is the big stadium, 80 ,000 people, maybe a little bit less because not all seats are full at the tour. But somewhere between 7 ,000 and 8 ,000 people, 29 terabytes of data. AT &T, their rough estimation is that every terabyte of data is either 200 ,000 photos or 400 hours of HD video. So 29 terabytes of data are just like moving through the stadium during the highest night of the year. Is it all just parents? That is just AT &T. That is not Verizon or T-Mobile. This is a record. This is most data AT &T has seen in any stadium at all this year. They confirmed it's a record.

1:15:58That's the absolute record. So that means I just did some very quick Googling here. And that means that if every single person at that concert that night was using AT &T to do this, every single person on average uploaded about 72 photos from that concert. That's crazy, right? And I totally believe it. Yes. Every one of the 80 ,000 people there uploaded 72 photos while they were at the concert. That's insane. That's crazy. So that's AT &T. And AT &T Stadium is like a city, right? This is a full day total. But you can be there for hours and hours before and after. So it's a big stadium. It's a complex.

1:16:38But the Cowboys play there. So just by comparison, the average Cowboys game is 21 terabytes. So she's just blowing away a Cowboys game. She's a 29. They're focused on the sport. They're focused on the sport, not the singing. So then you just go down the list. Nissan Stadium, 23 terabytes. NRG Stadium in Houston, Taylor lost to the rodeo. So the rodeo moved 24 terabytes of data. Swifties only moved 20.2. Look, bull riding is an impressive sport, and sometimes you want to upload 100 million photos of it. AT &T Stadium also outdid the Super Bowl in 2022 at SoFi Stadium, which was 13 terabytes. The 23 Super Bowl at State Farms Stadium in Arizona was 21 terabytes.

1:17:26So Taylor is just like way above all the next highest numbers, basically. And my favorite one all the way down here is U.S. Bank Stadium in Minneapolis where the Vikings play. It was 6.6 terabytes of data. But AT &T pointed out to me that's 6.6 terabytes of data. 70 % more data than is ever used during a Vikings game. Every other event is at least 70 % less than the Taylor Swift concert. I couldn't resist that one. I think they knew I'm a Packers fan. Vikings fans aren't even trying. I don't know, man. Lambeau Field didn't even make the list here. She didn't play on Lambeau Field. Anyway, these are crazy numbers.

1:18:04We got the whole chart on the site. It was cool to ask the question. It was cool to get all the data back. I do not know why 5G plus is both millimeter wave and mid band. We should fix that. Someone should fix that. But these numbers are just an absurd amount of data. And it is because of 5G. I talk a lot of crap about 5G and AT &T and Verizon and T-Mobile. Everyone knows how I feel about these things. But the fact that they have actually built out the stadiums to support this amount of video and photo sharing in real time. like i watched night one in argentina i just watched it on tiktok from like five different angles did you see when she hugged travis kelsey it was incredible i did not why did i watch that i was just like i was like you know i was like scrolling i was like oh i'm just watching the heirs tour huh that's just happening and it's because we have actually built out the network capacity to do these things which is remarkable regardless of what i've all the stuff around it the thing that always gets me this is a complete aside but the thing that always gets me about those videos now is that how good phone microphones have gotten like do you remember not that long ago that you would you would watch one of these streams and it would just sound like garbage they sound great now no so here's the thing that is happening uh the swifties have learned that you need to turn noise canceling off on your iphone mics so they all were trying to wonder they're all trying to figure it out why wasn't it weren't they all using galaxy phones for a minute because they sounded better or something there is an incredible arms race in like camera technology among Swifties to the point where people are taking, you're not allowed to bring an SLR.

1:19:40So they've just sort of maxed out the sort of fixed lens mirrorless camera you can bring there. And they are shooting videos by bringing fixed lens mirrorless cameras that can shoot 24 full frame pictures a second. Are there like 21-year-olds? And just run in the shutters. 20-year-olds just like decked out in Swiftie Aeros tour swag, laptop on knees. You can't bring a laptop. If you could bring a laptop to the air store, I would have brought a laptop to the air store. Who am I? Last week I'm out here with Dex. Trying to record it. Flipping around so you get that face cam. That's horrible. I brought a studio display.

1:20:19It's got an M1 chip in it. Do you think next year, like the Pixel 9 will have a thing where it just like automatically makes whatever video you take of Taylor Swift, like look like the best performance Taylor Swift ever did? Yes. It's just like, it's like the moon photos. You just pointed at Taylor Swift and it just makes Taylor Swift look amazing. The Rock will also be in it. The Rock is just sort of over there. And YouTube is like, I don't know who has a record deal here. I'm out. We can't. She's going to rerecord them all anyway. I just want to note some other little stories before I break.

1:20:48Alex went out the first OLED Roku TV is here, but it's made by Sharp. Yep. That's all you need to say there. Probably an LG panel, though. Don't buy a Roku TV. They suck. That's what I was telling my dad yesterday. He called me three times to ask about it. No. Yeah. We have a review of the Fitbit Charge 6, which people really miss fitness bands. We got one of those interesting. Sonos having a weird quarter. They're having a weird time lately. They're teasing big new products. It seems very likely that those are headphones. This is my other lightning round thing. It's got to be headphones, right?

1:21:21It's got to be headphones or they're going to make a TV. I think that's the next logical place for them to go. TV, because I don't want Sonos headphones. Everyone should make a TV. Apple should make a TV. Sonos should make a TV. The Verge is going to make a TV. I would. You'd make a kick-ass TV. It would be so good. It would be$40 ,000. And then I need. Yeah. Our volume would not be high. All the stuff we put in it. We'd be like, this is the best TV. No motion smoothing available whatsoever. And then, David, I need you to talk about the Opal Tadpole. Because merely mentioning the Opal C1 to people makes them so, so angry.

1:21:54It caused so many feelings. I bought one for our CEO, and it's the biggest mistake I've ever made in my entire career. You still have a job, though. It was dicey. I debated including that in the story and ultimately didn't. Yeah, so Opal 2021 launched a webcam called the C1 that they were like, this is the first DSLR quality webcam. It looked good, but you would never know because there was like a 75 % chance it wouldn't work with your computer and at a given time. I think we've all tried to use them at various times. We all gave up. Mine's just over there in a cabinet somewhere. Looks great. Never works.

1:22:28and this time they came out with a thing called the tadpole which is this cute little one inch by one inch square uh i have it here for anyone watching on youtube uh it's adorable it's an ipod shuffle like if if you are listening to this in your car it's an ipod shuffle with a cable coming out of it and they basically tried to solve everything about the last one it works better you don't need dumb software you just plug it in and it like works it's very funny to me that this was like a big idea that they had was like, what if we just plugged it in and it was good, but they, they got a lot of things, right.

1:22:59It's still pretty expensive. It's like, I think that's$175, but the rage that this brought up in the comments on our site from a lot of people who bought the C1 or were excited about it or were on the wait list or whatever, and feel like they've just been left behind as Opal has gone on to this other product was really interesting. And I spent some time with the founders. They know they have a hole to dig out of and that they didn't do everything right the first time and made some mistakes and moved too fast and all this stuff. But their reputation is in worse shape than I expected, which I thought was really interesting.

1:23:34Like, this is a good webcam. I've been using it a bunch. I have enjoyed it so far. But every time I say that to somebody, they're like, it's impossible. The C1 was a piece of junk. The Opal C1 is so bad that our producer was like, you have to stop using it and sent me a new webcam. Yeah, he bought us new webcams so that we'd stop using it. Thank you, Liam. It constantly overheats and would just shut down. Or sometimes it would just be like, not today Alex you don't need no one needs to see your face and like I should make that decision not my webcam yeah hello no it's true sometimes like the AI is like it's like Alex no you stayed up too late last night all right we gotta end this thing it's like very dangerous every time we talk about the opal I fear for my job in like five different ways here's what's gonna happen we're gonna end the show here if you're listening in the car at the end of the show you can come to YouTube.

1:24:22And after the credits, we're going to look at some of the graphs of the formula for wearable success that have been sent to me, which are all wonderful. They're all horrible, but we're going to look at them. So that's the end of the show here on the audio side. Come join us on YouTube if you want to look at graphs because we're not going to do radio by graphs. That's it. That's VergeCast. Rock and roll.

1:24:45And that's it for the VergeCast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at 866-VERGE-11. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and Vox Media Podcast Network. Our show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. That's it. We'll see you next week.

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