Could the Trump Phone be a good phone?

18:06Andy Hawkins:piece of hardware yeah the lens spacing i struggle with i didn't notice this uh during the call i mean he was waving the phone around so i didn't get a chance to look at it still it was only afterwards during the rights of the swan pointed out to me when i sent them the image they were like those camera lenses don't line up um yeah it's very upsetting horrific it's just it's just bad detail yeah uh so i agree that's the kind of detail that might make you worry this is this is just still another fake thing this isn't final it could just be bad awkward design you know i i wouldn't be shocked if the final things do ship and they do look like that and the lenses are just lined up kind of wrong and that's just what everyone has to live with wouldn't i mean it

18:46Nilay Patel:wouldn't be the first time somebody had wonky lenses you know what i mean um what do we know about the specs of this phone well one the the biggest kind of new thing we got is it is going

18:54Andy Hawkins:to be a qualcomm chip um a snapdragon 7 series i'm not sure which one uh so that's qualcomm's kind of mid-range upper mid-range kind of level performance um that is about what you'd expect in the sort of 500 ish price range they'd been talking about that that might change as well as we can get onto. I know it's going to have a 5 ,000 milliamp hour battery. I know it's going to have 512 gigabytes of storage, which is more than they'd initially promised that has gone up and will support micro SD cards. They'd initially promised a headphone jack. I actually don't know if that's still there or not.

19:32Andy Hawkins:Screen size, I don't know. I didn't get told a new figure for that. They've previously said two different numbers. When I said they changed specs before, the biggest change was the screen size. It started at 6.78 inches and then changed to 6.25 inches, which is a very meaningful change in a phone. Suddenly your whole chassis is different and everything. So it was one of the biggest red flags in the whole time. I don't know what size this one is, but from looking at it, it looks much closer to that first figure. This looks like a big phone, a kind of plus size, ultra size device. I know it has a curved display as well.

20:01Andy Hawkins:They kept calling it a waterfall display, which is the term that Huawei used to use for its very excessively curved panels that really like wrap almost all the way around the side of the body. That's very like phones of eight years ago. Yes, it's a very dated detail that they were very proud of. I kind of love it. I actually like curved screens and I know I'm in a real minority, especially in phone reviewers and liking curved screens. So this kind of like warmed my heart a little that there'll be a curved screen back because everything's flat these days. Yeah. What about the cameras? Okay, cameras.

20:31Andy Hawkins:This is the other thing they were very proud of. A 50 megapixel rear camera and a 50 megapixel selfie camera, which is in fairness, relatively unusual. I think you should never put too much stock in the megapixel count of a phone camera. It is not a super meaningful spec anymore. But still, that is a high resolution for selfie camera. It's pretty unusual. On the back, I'm not sure beyond that. There are the three lenses there. That doesn't mean a whole lot. The original spec sheet had said 50 megapixel rear. And then I think it was a depth sensor and a macro lens with the other two that initially announced.

21:04Andy Hawkins:Both like two megapixels, or maybe they didn't even list a resolution. I don't know right now. When I saw a glimpse of the camera app, it had the standard kind of one-time zoom and then a 0.6 times, which strongly suggests one of these is an ultra wide. And then it also had a two times. That could mean a telephoto, but it could just mean the digital zoom in the app on the main camera. So my best guess here is it's going to be a main camera, a low resolution, like maybe a 12 megapixel ultra wide, and then probably it's still a macro for the third lens or something like that. But that is me speculating at that point.

21:37Nilay Patel:Okay. I'm struck by the fact that, A, you just described a pretty solid spec sheet for a phone. There's nothing there that immediately screams giant red flag to me. But also, it sort of seems like you just described the spec sheet of every mid-range Android phone on the planet.

21:58Andy Hawkins:Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I noticed that they were very keen to pick up, as I said, the 50 megapixel selfie camera and the half terabyte of storage that they've jumped up to. I was trying to think around for mid-range phones, and I went and checked the OnePlus Nord 5, which didn't release in the US, but it did release in the UK and Europe in mid-2025. And that had a 50 megapixel selfie camera. I remember reviewing it and being impressed by the quality of the selfie camera. And it also had a 512 gigabyte storage option. if you wanted to get that version of that phone it would be 499 pounds so that's about 670 dollars so but it also had an 8 series chip whereas this is going to be a 7 series chip so i think there are some other specs that phone would beat the trump phone on on paper but that means even kind of upper limit you're looking at a phone in that up to 700 price range they're talking it up as if this is going to rival thousand dollar flagships and the reality of just specs on android phones these days is most of what they've announced is very easy to hit in a relatively budget device if i hunted around i could probably find cheaper phones than that one plus that match a lot of these specs maybe not the 50 megapixel selfie camera but only because most people don't bother putting that high resolution selfie cameras and phones so there aren't going to be very many that offer that but generally if you want to get a snapdragon 7 series you can get an 8 series for like the equivalent of a few hundred dollars um you can get decent amount of ram big screen decent amount of storage you know certainly a triple rear camera maybe a better real triple rear camera than this nothing they've said sounds like a red flag nothing they've said screams

23:32Nilay Patel:premium flagship right and an important detail of a lot of the specs that you just described is is they're very easy to get in china like dot dot dot in china um and and obviously the the made in USA-ness of this phone was a key part of the selling point, right? Like there was this giant thing on the website that said made in the USA when they first shipped. And as we were talking about, that has become sort of less and less declarative over time. Are they still claiming that they're making this phone in some substantial way in the United States?

24:12Andy Hawkins:They are saying that this is getting or has had final assembly in Miami. They were pretty coy about exactly what they mean by final assembly. I tried to push. I think the phrase that he used was, it's more than just slapping a cover on the phone. So it's not just boxing it. It's not just sticking the rear chassis on. They said 10 or so components are getting assembled in Miami. Now, I don't know if they're also counting, you know, the box and the USB cable among those, you know, 10 or so components, or whether they really mean they're getting a display unit, a battery, a motherboard, and assembling all that stuff together.

24:54Andy Hawkins:It was very vague. But yeah, there's something happening in the US. It's not made in the USA, though. They're not calling it made in the USA. And they did even admit on the call that they recognize that made in the USA is actually a term that the FTC regulates, and there are restrictions on when you can and cannot use it, and that this phone does not meet those requirements and that they could not legally call it made in the USA if they wanted to. They were pretty open about that. They were a little less open about the fact that they clearly had previously done so. When I pushed on that, the answer was a kind of, oh, maybe, you know, maybe something got said by mistake.

25:31Andy Hawkins:We didn't mean it. Oh, that's a load of crap. Yeah, it was not said by mistake. What they basically said, the line they had was that everything they said at launch was talking about their goals for the company, i.e. the goal is phones made in America and that that is still their goal, they say. But that they never said or never meant to say specifically that the T1 phone is made in the USA.

25:57Nilay Patel:Allow me to read you the press release from June 16th of 2025 announcing Trump Mobile and the T1 phone. This is a press release, Dom. Trump Mobile is also excited to announce it will release the t1 phone in august lie it is a sleek gold smartphone lie engineered for performance lie and proudly designed and built in the united states for customers who expect the best from their mobile carrier you just you just don't get to take that it's right it's right there it's right

26:24Andy Hawkins:and the press release is still live that's not something you've had to dig up as an archive it's

26:28Nilay Patel:just still there it's just right there you just you can't lie stop lying anyway um the all of this I think the Miami of all of this is really fascinating to me because there's this company, Blue Devices, that has been doing a version of this thing for a very long time, kind of taking and rebadging relatively middling to sort of upper middle class Android phones and selling them to new markets. And that hasn't really worked in the U.S., but ironically, it's worked very well in other places. But that it may technically satisfy some things. Right. And like you said, the definition of made in the USA is very specific.

27:11Nilay Patel:And my guess is what happened is nobody at Trump Mobile understood that actually there was a legal definition to the phrase made in the USA that you had to do things to meet. You couldn't you couldn't just say it. they just said things and then had to walk that back when they realized, oh, this actually has to be defensible in a certain way. All of this notwithstanding, is this real or is this a grift?

27:37Andy Hawkins:I think it's real. I am increasingly... I've always hoped, like you did, that this was real. And I was beginning to doubt. I was getting the fear. I'm increasingly the opinion that it is real. I think I mean the thing I saw was a phone it was a functioning phone I saw the screen being used I saw android being operated I saw the camera app being opened I didn't get you know a whole whole glimpse of lots of stuff happening but I saw a functioning android device I'm imagining like a

28:04Nilay Patel:like a solid gold android launcher where all the all the app icons are super ornate and every app icon is like replaced by Trump's face that that's what I imagine the Trump phone looks like it's like you want to open Spotify it's just a picture of Donald Trump wearing headphones um did you Did you get any glimpse of what the Android looks like?

28:23Andy Hawkins:Sadly, for better or worse, the glimpse I saw is stock Android. Okay. As stock as I've ever seen, which is kind of a good thing, right? I mean, if you actually want to buy one of these and use it, that's probably good news.

28:31Nilay Patel:There is an outcome here that is super interesting to me, right? Which is that what this phone actually is, and if Trump Mobile is smart, this is the thing they should be building, is basically a very straightforward, very simple, relatively functional Android phone that is based on pretty good specs that are well-tested and work everywhere. and the only thing different about it is that it says Trump in big-ass letters in a bunch of places. Because the people who are buying this one, that's what they're buying it for. So actually, if you can give them all of the other stuff, they'll be happy. Like, give people a pixel that says Trump in gigantic letters, and in a very funny way, you're actually going to make an enormous part of your audience much happier than if you tried to do weird stuff with software.

29:13Andy Hawkins:Exactly. The people buying this just kind of want a phone that works, right?

29:16Nilay Patel:Yeah.

29:17Andy Hawkins:They want something simple. They want something they can rely on. And then, yeah, the closer this goes to simple Android, I think the more they're going to have that. They were very cagey about their ongoing software support. That's obviously one area I would have very low expectations. They seemed a bit confused by my questioning when I asked about what kind of support they would offer and whether they'd commit to a certain time. It felt a bit like something that hadn't really occurred to them before, that, you know, you ship with Android 15 and they were like, it's Android 15, that's it. And I was like, and after that, what comes next?

29:48Nilay Patel:Well, that's a tricky thing, right? Because running a hardware business means you have to have a support ecosystem. It means you have to have a returns process. It means you have to have ongoing both software updates and security updates because that stuff is increasingly expected to be standard from users. like we made a phone is actually the beginning of a very long process for a new hardware company and and you and i have seen over the years shipping the first phone or even the first whatever 10 000 phones is often not the hardest part it's everything that comes after that and and that's why we've seen a lot of companies make one device and that's it and then they get out of the business for one reason or another so i think it's not super encouraging that they seem to think they're at the finish line and not the starting line.

30:33Andy Hawkins:And I will say one of the biggest, slightly unexpected takeaways I had from the call, though it makes sense in retrospect, is they do not see themselves as a phone company with an MVNO. They see themselves as a network, an MVNO that's making a phone. And I suspect they are beginning to regret, A, how much attention the phone has drawn, and B, how much work the phone is proving to be. And they kept emphasizing that for them, the business is the network and the business is the MVNO. If anything, the phone itself is like a loss leader. You know, they think it's a way of getting more audience onto their network.

31:11Andy Hawkins:But they do not, when they were talking about ambitions for the future, more phones was among them, but it was clearly not the thing they're really thinking about. They just want more people on the network. And you kind of get the feeling the phone is becoming a bit of a millstone

31:25Nilay Patel:around their neck. I always wondered why the hardware plan wasn't just an overly expensive gold phone case that said Trump Mobile. And it sounds like maybe they wonder that too. They're probably wondering that too, yeah. Last thing before I let you go, price. You mentioned the price is still listed at$4.99, but you're maybe skeptical of that being the price forever?

31:46Andy Hawkins:So they have told me that is going to change. That should be changing along with the relaunch that comes maybe in March. They wouldn't tell me what price it will be. so initially they basically kind of changed their tune a little bit the website right now still just lists it as it's$4.99 it very much says that is the price they're doing this kind of you know retcon thing again like they did with made in the usa by saying oh that was always an introductory offer that was never the real price that was always our early bird discount so anyone who did put their hundred dollars down or still does i guess in the next few weeks you've got time to lock it in at that low, low price.

32:24Andy Hawkins:If you put down$100 deposit, you can still get the Trump phone for$499. They said it will be more than that once it properly launches. Below$1 ,000 was the only thing they'd commit to.

32:36Nilay Patel:That's a big wide gap right there. $499 to below$1 ,000 is an awful lot of money. There's a lot of room for them to play with. So it could be doubling in price. All right, Dom, congrats on finally, after all of this time, it's got to feel like You're like the dog who caught the car. You're like, oh my God, I actually saw this phone that I never thought I would see. So congrats. I'm psyched for you. And we're going to have to, I think what's going to have to happen is we're going to, every single person at The Verge is going to have to get a review unit of this phone. And we're just going to, it's just going to get weird.

33:05Nilay Patel:We're going to do Trump phone week at TheVerge.com when this thing comes out. It's going to be amazing. I can't wait. All right, we got to take a break. Dom, thank you. We'll be right back.

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35:46Nilay Patel:All right, we're back. Hayden Field, Verge, senior reporter covering AI, is here. Hi, Hayden.

35:51Paul Miller:Hi.

35:52Nilay Patel:AI things. There's just always AI things. This is what we do here.

35:55Paul Miller:There are so many AI things every week.

35:58Nilay Patel:Okay, this is actually the exact right entrance to the thing I want to talk about. So mostly what we're here to talk about this time is OpenClaw, which is not Maltbook, which is not, what was it? Clawbot? Clawdbot. Clawdbot. the names are insane now it's called open claw uh and there's also this thing called moltbook and these have become sort of phenomena in the tech industry but the biggest thing i'm trying to figure out and i think a question you and i both go into a lot of these things with is like is this a real moment in the story of ai or is this a one minute fad like every other one minute fad in the history of ai there are a lot of things that everybody gets excited about on twitter for an hour and a half and then moves on from.

36:41Nilay Patel:It seems to me like these two products have become something more than that. But I'm curious how you feel more steeped in this. Like are OpenClaw and Maltbook really, truly, honestly a thing?

36:54Paul Miller:You know, it's funny because I feel like every day there are a lot of different opinions on it as the past like two weeks of craziness has progressed. but one thing that has stayed the same is that open claw seems to you know have kind of withstood the the ups and downs of the hype people actually think it's really interesting people actually think it's useful that's actually why it went viral in the first place is because people thought it was an actually useful product and that's their whole branding it's ai agents that actually do stuff for you like you know it's not like a theory it's just they're actually making your life as a consumer easier.

37:33Paul Miller:So, and the, honestly, the best part of that is the interface. Like you can text through WhatsApp, you know, Telegram, whatever to make your AI agent do things. So I think open claw is a moment that is, you know, sticking around for now. Malt book is the thing that I think is a fad on Twitter because, you know, as MIT Tech Review put it this weekend, it was like peak AI theater. You know, it blew up really fast. It fell really quickly. There was like a lot of questions about how many posts on there were influenced by humans and how many weren't. And it was just like a lot of like burned really bright and fast and then fell hard.

38:12Paul Miller:So I think it's two. I think one is going to stick around for a bit. One may have been a fad.

38:18Nilay Patel:Okay. So unfortunately, I agree on both counts. Let's start with OpenClaw because I do think this is maybe the more interesting version of a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about in a while. Can you describe very briefly what OpenClaw actually is?

38:35Paul Miller:OpenClaw is a platform for AI agents that's billed as being particularly useful and actually useful for everyday consumers. So creating calendar events, checking into your flight for you before Southwest, for example, went to assigned seating, gotta set that alarm for 24 hours before. People would use it for stuff like that. Any number of things. But the best part that a lot of people felt the users loved was that you could communicate with your AI agent through typical messaging platforms. So like Telegram, WhatsApp, all those things. So it was a cool way to just kind of integrate your AI agent into your everyday life and just have it working for you in the background.

39:17Paul Miller:And for some reason, it felt a lot more accessible to a lot of people than the other products out there. And it seemed to have better results in their opinion. So it was kind of like a, you know, just quickly put together project by one guy who wanted to make something for himself that worked well. And then it took off as many like viral projects do. Someone makes it just for themselves and then everyone starts using it.

39:39Nilay Patel:Yeah, in a funny way, it feels to me like kind of the next step in the sort of clawed code phenomenon, right? Because you have AI chatbots that are very sort of self-contained, and they talk to you and they talk to themselves, but they all kind of live in this little bubble. And then it's like, okay, we did the web, and now AI bots can go see stuff on the internet. They can pull information in, they can't do that much on the web. And then it's like, clawed code is like, okay, now you can use these bots to make software. and then OpenClaw is just like, ah, just give it access to your computer. It can do everything.

40:09Nilay Patel:Everything will be fine. Who knows? Let's go nuts. Like, I think to me, you know, all this stuff that you mentioned is I think right, but it does feel like this turn where it essentially requires you to just give it complete unfettered access to your computer. It is allowed to use your computer with as much access, or at least in its best, most capable version. It's allowed to use your computer with as much administrator access as you have on your computer. And that is, I think, fascinating because that is both the source of its power, right? These bots are only as good as the access and context that they have.

40:45Nilay Patel:And what better way than just to let it use your computer? But also the reason everybody should be deeply afraid of this thing, right? Like it's, I don't know, this just feels like we are, if not at, we are near sort of the logical extension of some idea about how AI is supposed to work.

41:01Paul Miller:Totally. And it's interesting because all AI companies are kind of trying to corner the market on this right now, expanding on the hype behind the coding tools and kind of getting people to use them for everyday life tasks or for the enterprise, like non-technical workers to use them for their work. So, you know, Claude Cowork just came out. It's basically like, you know, expanding Claude code to other types of things like creating PowerPoints, Excel, docs, anything that you may need, but you are not, you know, an actual software engineer. You know, it's for other types of teams, non-technical teams, and OpenAI is trying to do the same thing.

41:37Paul Miller:They're all kind of trying to do the thing that OpenClaw is doing right now. But yeah, it's really interesting because I think this is kind of the next step in how to make AI agents actually useful and make them integrated in people's everyday lives, whether they're at work or at home. It's kind of something that all AI companies are trying to corner the market on right now and all in competition with each other. But OpenClaw actually kind of, you know, surged ahead in terms of actual adoption. And so I think Anthropic and OpenAI are probably looking at OpenClaw very closely and trying to learn from it right now because their own products haven't got the type of viral adoption that OpenClaw got for, you know, non-technical types of tasks like this.

42:20Paul Miller:And so they're probably looking very closely and being like, how can we copy this?

42:23Nilay Patel:Yeah. What do you make of the fact that the one that has really taken off in this space was a sort of pet project made by one guy as opposed to these massive, otherwise very successful and, you know, often pushing too fast AI companies. They lost to just this one guy.

42:40Paul Miller:I think that it's one of those things where it was able to grow really quickly because it was just one guy. And also, you know, he probably didn't, as we know, may not have taken the same types of security steps and other types of things that a big company would need to take. So, like, partially it's just because, you know, he was able to move really quick and break things vibe. You know, he made it for himself. You know, he made it really accessible through normal messaging platforms, which I think is a big part of this, like the UX. It's just easy to access. But the other part of it is the fact that, like, you know, he was making it just as a pet project, so he didn't go through all the same types of like testing and evals and like, you know, safety checks that you would have done at a big company.

43:24Paul Miller:And I think we're starting to see that now with all the, you know, security problems and malware that's been found on the platform.

43:31Nilay Patel:It is very funny to think about how much that window has shifted. Like the first phase of this was all these AI companies running way faster than the big tech companies. You know, Google has been incubating this tech for a decade. And then open AI comes out and is like, well, none of this is finished and it causes all kinds of problems. Here it is. And now those are the companies that are very responsible while some guy with access to these tools is just like, well, it has all kinds of problems. Here it is. And it's just and then the next step is going to be like the AI is going to make it for itself and then give it to us like just the window of responsibility is shifting so quickly in this space.

44:06Nilay Patel:It's really funny to watch.

44:07Paul Miller:It is so true. And yeah, it's really interesting to see who's responsible for what here because, you know, right now we're in a huge state of flux with regulation, with, you know, the types of things that can be attributed to you in terms of fault. You know, AI companies, they can make these promises and claims, but there isn't really a, like, a hammer coming down on them if they don't deliver right now. That may change. For an individual person creating a project like this, yeah, they don't really have fear of that. So they're just putting it out in the world and seeing what happens. And I think that's what happened here.

44:40Nilay Patel:So OpenClaw, you mentioned the UX a couple of times, which I think is really interesting because I think you're right that one of the things people really like about it is that you can access it with messaging apps. And that is just a thing people understand. You can do all this stuff, but all you have to do is just send it a text message. That is a UI and a UX that people understand. The flip side of it is this is a relatively complicated piece of software it it requires a fair amount of knowledge just to get up and running um and it's like people who are using this even the most responsible possible way are like buying separate air-gapped mac minis to do this on because you shouldn't trust your main machine with this so it's just strange to me to see this running both at how do we make this the most accessible thing possible but also this like immensely complicated and and frankly legitimately dangerous piece of software.

45:32Nilay Patel:Are you seeing pickup with this thing outside of the normal sort of dev folks who love to build this stuff anyway? Like, does this have a chance to break out of that?

45:41Paul Miller:I'm not seeing it right now. And so that's what I think is interesting. It's like the UX and the ease of use once you set it up is so amazing that devs and people in tech love it so much.

45:53Nilay Patel:It's like the exact opposite of cloud code, which is really easy to set up and then sort of overcomplicated to use for regular people. This is the exact inverse.

46:00Paul Miller:Exactly, exactly. And so I think that that's what's happening here. And that's why I haven't seen anyone outside of tech or the usual suspects that you would expect adopt this. And I don't think we will for a while because unless something changes with the way to adopt it, which I doubt it will because it's one guy, it's going to stay where it is. But it's one of those tools that I feel like it's going to be cult following, viral, beloved within this group. and you know that's kind of enough when one group religiously like uses something you know there's enough users enough data whatever like you're good but if it's like a lot of people use it a tiny bit you're also good but yeah I think this is going to be the former yeah I feel like the main use

46:46Nilay Patel:case I've seen so far and this is sort of true with every AI product is is like the daily digest This seems to be the first thing everybody thinks of when they want to build with AI is like, how do I go to my email and my calendar and my to do list and my Slack and my Jira and and just have a tool that sort of pulls everything into one place for me and gives me a readout on what's going on and what matters. I feel like there's a leap that is possible with OpenClaw because it can do things like access your iMessage account because, again, it can just use your computer. It has access to this list of stuff that you can't get through APIs and websites.

47:26Nilay Patel:Are you seeing anything beyond that? Like, have you seen particularly sort of interesting, impressive, cool stuff that people are building with OpenClaw so far?

47:34Paul Miller:Yeah, it's been interesting to see, like, the niche use cases. but what I'm seeing the most is the personal assistant type stuff. So like my first job in New York was a personal assistant and the stuff I'm seeing people use open cloth for is kind of the same stuff that I would be doing. Like, oh, like, you know, create this stuff on my calendar, clear out, you know, this folder, you know, check me into my flight and make sure I have, you know, this going on, you know, give me a daily digest so that I can, you know, be ready for my day, things like that. So, you know, that's what I'm seeing most.

48:05Paul Miller:There are definitely people doing, you know, cool things and, you know, just kind of playing around with it for hours and hours and, you know, figuring out ways to adapt it to their own personal preferences. But the most stuff I'm seeing is like personal assistant type stuff.

48:16Nilay Patel:It is really interesting that that seems to be everybody's immediate idea of the killer app for a lot of this stuff is just make sense of all of the things going on around me in one place. Which I actually think is cool because that is the thing that these models are actually set up to do really well, right? Like take lots of data and make it smaller and sensible is actually a thing a lot of these models do a really good job of. And so if you can just give it the access to all of that data, which comes with huge problems that we're just about to talk about, that actually becomes a really useful feature of these things.

48:49Nilay Patel:Like it is really interesting to me that that is the thing that everybody has glommed onto. It's also very clear that no one has figured out the interface for that yet. right like what was the chat gpt thing that they launched that was supposed to be basically this

49:01Paul Miller:oh chat gpt pulse like the thing that started your day yeah i forgot about that until just now

49:06Nilay Patel:uh this but like this is the idea and everybody is going to try to poke at this and i think someone will eventually get it right that will i don't know it'll be proactive or there will be an app that will will show it all to you in some kind of structured helpful way but there is there is a turn for this that i think is going to be really cool for people that no one has figured out the UI of yet. And it's not replying to you in a messaging app. I feel very confident about that.

49:30Paul Miller:Yeah, I completely agree. I think that it's one of those things that, you know, it's why people love starting their day with a certain podcast or starting their day with a certain newsletter. They want to be ready and kind of know what's going on and they want to have that from a trusted source. So I don't think those things will go away. Like, you know, everyone, of course, will always be listening to VergeCast. But, you know, yeah, I think people want, especially right now, to make sense of the world and have it be easy to understand because there's a lot going on that's really hard to understand.

50:04Paul Miller:And so this is like a way that, you know, I think this will be the biggest form of adoption, the biggest thing that will make people want to use these types of tools.

50:13Nilay Patel:Yeah, I agree. So let's talk about some of the security risks because this has been the other big thing is I think there is a there is an obvious set of risks that you take by giving any tool like this access to your computer. It can just it can do things. And that means it can do things you don't want it to do. There's a lot of faith you're putting in any kind of piece of software that you give this much access to. But it seems like with OpenClaw and and really anything like it, we have discovered some pretty big, scary problems, both real and possible. What have we learned?

50:47Paul Miller:So, yeah, I'm so glad you asked about this because, you know, you're kind of just trusting these companies with your data and trusting they're going to do the right thing. And some of the experts that I spoke with were like, yeah, even cloud services aren't necessarily doing the right thing with your data and they still have leaks. So I don't necessarily trust AI companies, which are newer and, you know, more incentivized to move quickly to do the right thing either. So that was kind of a good point. And so you have to be okay if you use a product with, you know, everything changing with your data.

51:20Paul Miller:And that's why I typically don't use these tools unless I'm okay with whatever I'm putting into them coming out. You know, I'm not going to be assuming that, like, it's going to stay private. You know, I keep it pretty, pretty. The stuff I put in is not, like, privacy sensitive. It's pretty, like, I'm okay with it coming out publicly. one of the experts I spoke with said, you know, you should be okay with your employer seeing whatever you put into these chatbots in like five years in case they change owners.

51:51Nilay Patel:So that would rule you out from using something like OpenClaw entirely.

51:55Paul Miller:Oh, yeah.

51:55Nilay Patel:Like that becomes completely off limits under that rubric.

51:59Paul Miller:I mean, for me, I use it like so that I know how it works and, you know, but it's like you better make sure that, you know, you're okay with everything coming out. So don't don't do anything that you wouldn't want everyone to know. Don't put any info in that you don't want to become public. Interesting.

52:16Nilay Patel:So, okay, let's actually come back to the privacy stuff another time, because I think there's a big how all of this is supposed to interact question that is interesting, and we should talk about it. But before I let you go here, let's talk about Moldbook just for a few minutes. Because this, to me, the Moldbook phenomenon, and Moldbook is the idea is supposed to be it's like it's Reddit, but it's all AIs. And it's just a bunch of AI agents talking to each other, which I would say on its face is not interesting. But this became a thing and people were talking about it and a lot of people were looking at it.

52:49Nilay Patel:Everybody's like, this is proof that the agents are sentient. This is going to change everything. And yet I just Googled Maltbook. And one of the first thing that comes up is a video on YouTube from six days ago that says Maltbook is already over. What what do you make of this phenomenon? The sort of insane excitement about Maltbook that seems to already be waning?

53:09Paul Miller:I think that it was really interesting for people because it was seemed so dystopian. You know, what do AI agents talk about when they're left alone? What do they talk about with each other? That was kind of the draw here. People felt like people always love to feel like they're viewing like some type of secret thing. And that's how this felt for a lot of people like, oh, we're we're viewing the internal desires and like strategies of AI systems. And this is shedding light on like what they actually want and how they work. That was the vibe that people were getting from this.

53:43Nilay Patel:There were a lot of people who were really excited when it looked like the agents were kind of making up their own language to talk to each other and going back and forth in totally nonsensical but yet seemingly sort of structured ways that it was. That actually makes sense. It's like this is a peek into how this thing works that maybe we're not even supposed to be getting.

53:58Paul Miller:Totally. And like, you know, when they were like allegedly making up their own religion and stuff, people were people. It was like, you know, peak palace intrigue. It's like how about with AI agents? It's like how what's going on inside there? Let's check it out. But, you know, it came to light pretty quickly that humans were influencing a lot of these outputs. It's like, you know, a lot of the AI system threads that where they were like, oh, let's like, you know, find a specific way to talk to each other that no one can decode. Some of those were linked to human social media accounts who were marketing AI messaging services.

54:38Paul Miller:So it's like you could never really tell fully what was influenced by humans and to what extent and what wasn't. But there were a lot of clues and kind of trails of things being influenced heavily by humans. And, you know, with OpenClaw, you could say to your agent, hey, post this word for word on Moldbook. Or you could say, hey, write a post with this topic and make sure you reply to every comment. So, you know, you could do anything like this super easily. And there was no limit to how many agents one person could have. so you could just be like, you know, really intensely influencing the platform as a whole.

55:17Paul Miller:There was a lot going on there. So basically a lot of the experts I spoke with said it wasn't a clean experiment in this type of thing. Like it was an interesting moment in what would it look like if agents collaborated on a large scale? What might it look like if they could like work together and, you know, delegate these tasks? But it wasn't a clean experiment at all, so it shouldn't be treated like that.

55:36Nilay Patel:That's a good way of thinking about it. But I guess ostensibly that is the thing that we are, driving towards, right? All of these companies promising agents are fundamentally promising, not only that there will be lots of agents, but they will be able to work together. So actually, in theory, being able to see what it would look like when you just point two of them at each other should be super meaningful. So like if we ever get a clean version of that experiment, I don't like to me, the idea of going to this website to look at it is preposterous. But from a research perspective, I can see that being really useful over time.

56:08Paul Miller:Totally. I think that's why it got so big so quickly, people thought that that was already here. They were like, oh, you know, this, we've reached it. Like, we've reached the place we were going, where agents can, you know, intelligently collaborate and talk to each other and do all these things. And, you know, maybe they can, but this was not a proof of that, you know? Like, and we can see, like, you know, Anthropic and other companies have launched tools that, you know, are kind of test driving this right now. Like last week, I think Anthropic launched agent teams. So it was kind of a way to have like a lead AI agent.

56:45Paul Miller:And then the small, like the lower tier AI agents would each take a task and there was like a project lead and each of them would work together to accomplish something. So, you know, I mean, companies are working on this. It's just, it just doesn't seem to be as advanced as what we saw on Malt Book. So, you know, I think I would take everything with not a grain of salt, but like a full shaker of salt.

57:12Nilay Patel:All of the salt that there is. Yeah. Do you think at the end of this road, there is a version of this that is useful and interesting to humans? Like the idea that this would be a place that I might even go to look at ever at some point. Is there a version of this that becomes that?

57:31Paul Miller:For Moldbook, I don't really think so. I mean, I think it's just kind of like a cool experiment in what something might look like. But I don't necessarily know that like it'll ever be a clean enough experiment that we should look at it and be like, wow, this is how things work. I think it would be more accurate to, you know, look in clod code or codex and look at the step-by-step of how these models are working and what their reasoning process is. And once they launch the multi-agent stuff, how they're thinking together, what they're working on, how they're delegating, stuff like that. I don't think Moldbook specifically is going to be an example of that.

58:11Paul Miller:That's just my thought process. And I also think, I mean, I think we're going to get there, but I just don't know that it'll be Moldbook that gets us there, especially because for me, I've been covering AI agents since like 2022. And every year I've seen a huge step change in them. You know, they're still not, you know, like ready for prime time. But the amount of change I've seen year by year has been a significant amount. So, you know, this is just like another milestone in the in the journey.

58:37Nilay Patel:Yeah, I tend to agree. There was this tech CEO years ago who told me, he was like, my rule for looking at new products is always, is this a primitive version of something really good or is this just a bad thing? And I feel like this has been such an interesting version of this because I look at Maltbook and I'm like, there's nothing here, right? Like this is something that is going to be fascinating to a very small group of people, mostly who make these kinds of products to understand how they work. Fine. That's essentially like network logs, right? Like they're interesting to some people and that's fine.

59:06Nilay Patel:I look at OpenClaw and it's like, there's something here. Like this is the early version of something. And there's a lot of privacy questions. There's a lot of permissions questions. There's a lot of UX questions. There's a lot of like overall installability. And what are you supposed to be able to do with this question? But like something about OpenClaw is going to work for a lot of people. and I think that that to me is where it's like my brain starts to fire about like okay what is the version of this that is just two clicks and it starts working on your computer in a reasonably thoughtful safe way that version might be something and it feels like we're headed that direction

59:40Paul Miller:absolutely that's what I think too and you know anytime there's a big group of people that are really involved in one industry and they start loving something and using it all the time and dropping everything else to use it, I think usually it means something. And that's what's happened here. It's like, you know, it has a cult following. People like it a lot more than other products out there. So clearly there's something there. It's like, you know, this is either the beginning of something bigger and another company will kind of take over and push it forward. Or this will be the thing that, you know, lasts.

1:00:13Paul Miller:We don't know. But either way, it's like a huge milestone and definitely like a seed.

1:00:18Nilay Patel:Totally. All right. Well, you're going to come back and we're going to talk about privacy and all of this stuff because I'm realizing as we talk that I don't know how to think about what I'm doing with my own data as I talk to AI tools. So we're going to talk this out. But for now, we need to take a break. Hayden, thank you for being here as always.

1:00:33Paul Miller:Thank you so much.

1:00:34Nilay Patel:Let's go install OpenClaw and just ruin our lives together. It's going to be great. I'm excited. Can't wait. All right. We'll be right back.

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1:02:11Nilay Patel:All right, we're back. Let's do a question from the VergeCast hotline. As always, the number is 866-VERGE-11. The email is vergecast at theverge.com. The Verge's transportation editor, Andy Hawkins, is here to answer this one with me. Hey, Andy. Hey, what's up? So I feel like I only bring you here to explain Tesla to me. And I'm very sorry about that. Last time was BYD. So that was, you know, a horse of a different color. Not to take full credit for this, but there has been a bunch of very good coverage of Chinese EVs on our site since then. Yes. So you're welcome. Also, a lot of people are enthusiastic about our Verge Top Gear in China episode that we're going to do.

1:02:51Nilay Patel:I'm just saying, people are saying that this is going to happen. The momentum is just off the charts. Jim Maycuff is listening right now. Please cut this check. Jim, I know that you are. Hit us up. We're ready. All right. But our question this time, we talked briefly a while ago about Tesla's earnings and Tesla kind of slowly beginning to seem like it is getting out of the car business. And that is what this question is about. Let me play.

1:03:18Hayden Field:Hello, Vergecast. I just read the news that Tesla is discontinuing the Model S and the Model X. I'm just wondering when you all think Tesla will stop being a car company. My big tinfoil hat theory is that at some point they will switch to being just a more infrastructure and electronic company, like their supercharging network, battery infrastructure, solar, maybe robots, but I don't think a robot will ever happen. But that's my question is, when, I guess at higher or lower scale, do you all think they will just cease to be a competitive automaker? Because if we see what's going on in China and in the U.S., Tesla seems to be getting less and less market share every year.

1:04:02And I give it five to eight years before they're just a completely minor player and almost insignificant.

1:04:09Hayden Field:But I would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you.

1:04:12Nilay Patel:Andy, I want to start here. Is this a tinfoil hat theory to you that Tesla is kind of on its way out of the car business? This doesn't strike me as that crazy a theory anymore.

1:04:20Dom Preston:I think absolutely not. I think Musk has been sort of signaling this for a while now. We've been writing about it for a while now. I published a story the other week that basically sort of confronted these exact issues. You know, what would it take and why and why is Tesla sort of starting to like kind of essentially wind down as a as a car business? I mean, he cited the discontinuation of the Model S and Model X. And there's a number of other clues as well. If you listen to that recent earnings call, there was a top Tesla executive who told investors that the company should be seen more as a transportation as a service company and less so as a traditional automaker.

1:04:59Dom Preston:And obviously, there's all the robots and the AI of it all as well. So I think he's absolutely focusing on, I think it seems like what seems like a very credible possibility here for Tesla.

1:05:11Nilay Patel:So the cynical read that immediately comes to my mind here is that Tesla for years has hit the valuation on Wall Street that it has mostly by saying it's not fundamentally a car company, right? Like in every meaningful way, it has been a car company. But Elon Musk has been out here talking about robots and talking about self-driving and talking about like rewiring the way that cities work, because that's how you justify the way that Tesla has been valued. And the way that Tesla is valued directly leads to how much money Elon Musk has. So like what I've always wondered and what you and I have talked about a few times is like there's there's Tesla in the world and there's Tesla on Wall Street.

1:05:50Nilay Patel:And in many ways, those are two very different companies. is it is what's happening now that the wall street side of it is actually becoming real or like i don't know what what is what is changing in that dynamic here yeah it's a really interesting

1:06:05Dom Preston:question because yes you're you're absolutely right there's sort of the reality of tesla which is that it is fundamentally a car business obviously it has these uh side businesses as well it sells solar power it sells uh home home batteries stationary batteries it uh installs superchargers, EV charging. So there's a number of other things going on around Tesla that are not directly connected to its core business as a car company. And then there are sort of like, there's the vibes of it all, right? There's sort of what Elon Musk says and what he promises and how those promises are refracted back from Wall Street and how that reflects on Tesla as an investment as the value of the company, which is, you know, for years and years and years now, ever since the success of the Model 3, the company has been valued far and above, head and shoulders above other traditional car companies.

1:06:59Dom Preston:Like if you see like Tesla as a car company, it sells a fraction of the cars that, you know, big volume players like Volkswagen and Toyota sell. And yet it is valued at multiple times the amount as those companies are. But that said, I still think that we're kind of like not getting at how difficult this transition is going to be. If indeed what they say is true, that they are going to cease to become sort of a traditional car business and become more of a subscription business, essentially. If he's talking about transportation as a services, that immediately calls to mind, you know, other businesses, SaaS businesses, companies that have recurring revenue from subscriptions as opposed to just selling physical products that, you know, they get that sort of one bite of the apple and that's it.

1:07:45Dom Preston:And I feel like that is going to be kind of the great challenge that Musk is now facing. I mean, because if you think about Tesla's car business, in 2025, they brought in about $95 billion in automotive revenue. That is just from selling cars. Pretty much exclusively the Model 3 and the Model Y. Those are the cars that it sells at volume. The Cybertruck has been a flop. The Model S and the Model X have waned over the years. and essentially just, you know, they're selling single units of those every quarter. But$95 billion, that's nothing to sneeze at. That's not automotive revenue. That's just, that is revenue, period.

1:08:23Dom Preston:That is all the revenue that Tesla brought in in 2025. 69.5 billion of that was automotive revenue. So we're still talking 75 % of the revenues are coming in from car sales, 25 % through energy sales, through subscriptions, through EV charging, through other aspects of its business. So at what point does that become flipped? At what point are we talking that the majority of the businesses are these other side businesses and the car revenues become much smaller aspect of it? Well, when Musk says it's going to be when they start producing these cyber cabs, when everything becomes autonomous, when the robots go into production, which is expected to be at the end of 2027, if you believe Musk and his deadlines and his predictions.

1:09:06Dom Preston:So I do think that you can see sort of like the vague sort of outlines of how this happens. And it's true that Tesla's other businesses, energy generation, storage, services, revenue, other things, those are on the upswing while the automotive revenues are down. I mean, the 2025 revenues from the car business down 10 % year over year, the Model 3 and the Model Y, while still selling much bigger than all of the other EVs on the market, are also in decline. And he's shown, you know, Musk has shown zero interest in expanding Tesla's vehicle lineup to include more mass market affordable vehicles. They've tried to take, you know, sort of the Model 3 and the Model Y, make them as cheap as they possibly can.

1:09:53Dom Preston:And they're still only sort of, you know, the decontented versions are going to be around like$38 ,000,$39 ,000. That's still not in that$20 ,000 to$25 ,000 range that Tesla has been supposedly working on before this kind of like more of this philosophical switch that they've centered on. So I do think it's going to be extraordinarily difficult. I think that Tesla might become a smaller company, as this guy has suggested, more of a bit player in the automotive world. And I don't see the other revenue streams necessarily compensating for that shrinkage in the near term or really even in the long term where you consider how far behind Waymo of Waymo that Tesla is right now and other robo taxi players.

1:10:35Dom Preston:So I think it's going to be a tough transition. But I mean, all things are possible.

1:10:40Nilay Patel:Yeah. So if Tesla isn't a car company, let's say five to eight years, I think is a fun. And I'm going to make you pick over and under on eight years in a minute. So get ready for that. Um, but if, if it's not a car company at that point, it, it is a, it is an X company at the, well, that's, I probably shouldn't say it like that. If it's not a car company at that point, what kind of company is it? Is it an optimist robot company? Is it a self-driving robo taxi company? Is it a home energy company? Like to the extent that Apple makes lots of things, but it is the iPhone company, right? Like Tesla makes a lot of things, but it is a car company.

1:11:16Nilay Patel:What is that thing, if you say cast out a decade, if it's not cars?

1:11:20Dom Preston:Yeah, I think it could potentially be any of those things. But then, of course, that is assuming that these other products are as wildly successful as the Model 3 and the Model Y have been for Tesla, which I don't think you can really make that assumption quite yet. Everything we've seen so far from these other projects that Tesla is working on have suggested that they still need a lot of work. Right. The Optimus robots, the versions that we've seen so far have mostly been remote operated or tele operated. They seem to struggle with some basic functions. Right. There is one that they were having some difficulty handing out popcorn, for example, at the at a Tesla event a couple of years ago.

1:12:00Dom Preston:And then the robo taxis, you know, they still have safety drivers in the vehicle. They have not gone fully driverless. They are still, you know, struggling to go sort of level four, as Waymo has done. And, you know, the cyber cab, you know, like it's no guarantee that this two passenger gold, you know, with no vehicle, with no steering wheel, no pedals is going to really become a volume player, especially because there's a lot of regulatory risk there, right? They have to get exemptions from the government to produce vehicles that don't have these traditional controls. That's going to be a struggle.

1:12:36Dom Preston:That's going to limit the early rollout of the CyberCab. So I just don't see like kind of a one-to-one match here with the success that they've had with the 3 and the Y on any of these other products that they're supposedly trying to sell us on yet.

1:12:51Nilay Patel:Okay. Yeah. The CyberCab in particular, it's not just a bet on a vehicle. It's a bet on like a complete reimagining of society in five to eight years. You know what I mean? Okay.

1:13:02Dom Preston:Look at Waymo is not going in that direction, right? They're still putting out vehicles that have steering wheels and pedals, right? They're saying we can grow a lot faster and grab a lot more market share if we sort of, you know, bypass this idea that these vehicles need to be purpose built and instead just use retrofitted vehicles. That seems to be the smarter play because they're going to be in many more cities than Musk has been promising. He promised, you know, 50 % of the population at the end of 2025 was going to have access to the robo-taxi.

1:13:29Nilay Patel:That has not been the case. Right. Okay. So I'm going to give you eight years. We'll go to the end of our caller's timeline here. Eight years, Tesla does or does not still sell individual cars to individual people. Yes or no? 2034. Boy, that feels like a long time from now.

1:13:49Dom Preston:It really does. I mean, my daughter is going to be starting her first year in college that year. That's crazy to think about. I think that they're still going to be selling cars by then. I just don't see a world in which the streets are overrun with robots and cybercabs. yeah I'm going to be pessimistic on this one sorry to all the stands out there but yeah I'm not seeing the evidence that suggests that it's going to be you know maybe it's a smaller company and maybe it's run by a different person right and at some point maybe Tesla's board decides that this direction is not the one they want to go to and they kick Musk out so yeah I'm going to take the under on that one

1:14:30Nilay Patel:I'm with you I appreciate it Andy thank you as always thanks David All right, that's it for the show. Thank you to Andy and Hayden and Dom for being here. And thank you as always for listening. If you have thoughts or questions, if you've seen the Trump phone, if you've done something weird with OpenClaw, or if you've been vibe coding things, I've gotten so many emails from people about the interesting stuff you've been vibe coding recently. And I want to hear even more. Keep them all coming. 866-VERGE11 is the hotline. Vergecasttotheverge.com is the email. We absolutely love hearing from you.

1:14:59Nilay Patel:Send us all the things. Tell us what you think about our coverage of the Epstein files and of what's going on in Minneapolis. There's just a lot happening in all different directions right now. And I would love to hear how you think, what you're thinking about, how it all makes you feel. Get at us. Also, if you want to get all of our podcasts, including this one ad free, the best thing you can do is go to theverge.com slash subscribe and subscribe. If you're already a subscriber, it's in your account settings, how to get the ad free podcasts. Not only is it the best way to listen to all of our shows, if I'm being honest, it's also the best way to support everything that The Verge is up to.

1:15:31Nilay Patel:The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. The show is produced by Eric Gomez, Brandon Kiefer, and Travis Larchuk. We will be back on Friday with more news because the news just keeps coming. Neal and I have an awful lot to talk about. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

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