How to buy a laptop when everything’s expensive

0:02Welcome back to the Vergecast, flagship podcast of trying to buy a computer when it's impossible to buy a computer. I'm David Imel. If you've been listening to the Vergecast for a while, you know that David Pierce has been issuing many, many warnings about how you should buy all of your tech as soon as possible before the RAM shortage makes everything way more expensive. And if you ignored those warnings, I'm sorry. But if you're in the market for a new laptop, we are here to help. So today, we're talking to The Verge's laptop reviewer, Antonio DiBenedetto, for another installment of our ongoing series, The Ramagenon Survival Guide.

0:38His recommendations are coming up, but first, here's what's happening on The Verge today. This is 90 Seconds on The Verge for Thursday, August 27th, 2026. Apple has formally announced its September iPhone event, where it's expected to unveil the new iPhone 18 Pro series of phones, a new Apple Watch, and most importantly, its first foldable smartphone. The event will take place at 10 a.m. Pacific Time on September 9th. Hopefully, we'll see a new Apple Polishing Cloth Ultra. Microsoft has announced a new feature that will allow Xbox owners to digitize their existing game collection. Owners will receive a digital entitlement tied to that specific disc, so if they sell the game, they'll no longer have access.

1:17Similar to real life. Microsoft also started selling a limited edition translucent Xbox Series X for$899, which sold out in minutes, so it seems like they're doing okay. And finally, game developer and Playdate manufacturer Panic has started issuing tariff refunds for customers. The company charged a tariff while the government was illegally charging to import goods, and after being overturned by the Supreme Court, the government was forced to issue tariff refunds. We've seen refunds ranging from$12.36 to$23, so check your email if you bought anything from the company. Panic is one of the first companies we've seen to actually start giving people their money back after these illegal tariffs, so hopefully we start to see this happen more in the future.

1:58You can read more at TheVerge.com. That's 90 Seconds on The Verge for Thursday, August 27th, 2026. Excuses are easy. An epic movie night? We don't have enough snacks. Dinner party with the girls? We'd have to decorate. Surprise date night? Nothing to wear. But Amazon's Prime same-day delivery lets you say yes before the moment slips away. Try that new popcorn maker, order those cheeky drink glasses, get that new perfume, and turn that I wish we could into an I'm so glad we did. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Same-day delivery. It's on Prime. Available in select areas.

2:41Terms apply. Hey, it's Sue Bird. I'm back this week with a brand new episode of Bird's Eye View. I'm joined by ESPN's NBA insider and senior writer Ramona Shelburne to discuss how she's become one of the most trusted and respected voices in sports journalism, how the WNBA playoff picture is shaping up, and what it takes to run a successful franchise in today's climate. And of course, Ramona gives us the inside scoop on what's been happening behind the scenes of the Lakers' historical sale. Make sure to check out Bird's Eye View on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

3:21Ramageddon is coming for us all. Antonio, welcome back to the Vergecast. Hey, good to be here and happy to talk laptops, even though laptops kind of suck right now. They do. They do. First of all, I'm very excited that we get to talk because we have known each other since before both of us were working at this place. So that's kind of cool. on a scale from one to ten in terms of bleakness in terms of despair where where are people right now who are in the market for a new laptop i love the despair scale of one to ten i mean i maybe can suggest that the next time we we talk about restructuring our reviews program uh where where's the rank on despair despair meter despair yeah i think our despair meter is um it's probably at like an eight and I'm like I have to give some wiggle room that it can just go higher and just get worse but things have been rough obviously across laptops like prices have risen Apple raised all their prices you know we saw we've seen new laptops come out that get price increases or just they come in at a higher price than expected or they get increases shortly after they come out or right as they came out.

4:30I think one of them, like an Asus ZenBook A16, it was$100 more the day it came out than what the Asus was telling us. And it's like just weird things happening. And then you have the framework laptop 13 Pro. The review unit hit my door and within a week before, until the review was going to come out, the price of that exact SKU went up$800. And it's like... $800? Yeah. Like what is happening? You know, things that were affordable-ish are like just not feeling so affordable anymore. And anything like higher end is just getting ludicrous in some cases. Yeah, yeah. So you've been reviewing a lot of laptops recently and I just saw an article from you called an okay laptop with 16 gigabytes of RAM is better than this nice laptop with eight gigabytes of RAM.

5:17Can you explain that a little bit? Because, you know, there've been like many eras of laptops and the MacBooks came out and people said, oh, you don't need 16 gigabytes of RAM and now you kind of do, is that just a Windows thing or what's up with that? Long short, it kind of is a Windows thing. I know some people get angry about that or feel differently. Obviously, everyone has different use cases, but we'll just put a caveat slash pin in the whole, the MacBook Neo works with 8 gigabytes of RAM and it's passable and it's a very good laptop with it. It's maybe not going to last as long as something that already comes with 16 gigabytes of RAM and you get more headroom.

5:57with that laptop you're speaking of, that's a Windows laptop. That's the HP Omnibook 316. So, I mean, it's like 500-ish dollars. It's one of those, because a lot of Windows laptops, like they have an MSRP that they sometimes just never sell for. Yeah. So that laptop might really have some secret MSRP of like a thousand bucks or something, but that's like maybe only on HP's website and never actually sells for that price. That thing is constantly just being sold by Walmart and Amazon for like 500-ish. like sometimes it actually dips below 500 okay and it's it's nothing amazing i think i wrote in the review like there's really nothing here to write home about except that it's 2026 and this comes with 16 gigs of ram and a 512 gig ssd not even 256 um and it's a base level snapdragon x chip so it's windows on arm so there's all the caveats that come with that you know it's definitely not going to play many games at all.

6:52And there's maybe some now, you know, it's pretty rare now because Windows and R have gotten pretty good, but some apps might not be fully compatible or ideal to use with it. But for the most part, it's like, it's a fine laptop. Are the speakers good? No. Is the screen really nice? No. It's big though. It's big and cheap and people like big cheap screens. Right. So it's like, it's kind of fine as long as you don't mind like some plastic creakiness. I think the people that are going to spend that price, they're just kind of already used to that maybe. Yeah, we're not asking for much out here. We're just asking for something that can actually run and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

7:28Exactly. How do you think that HP can get away with selling a computer for this price when everybody else is up charging their laptop space so much, especially with this much RAM? I genuinely don't know. I'm wondering if they've just forgotten that it's at that price still. It did come out this year. I don't know. uh like but i and i think i also wrote in that review that it's like maybe this is just a matter of time before the price rises on this too um or like you know it just starts to fluctuate more and i mean we already saw like like i said like it it dipped into the 400s at one point um maybe that doesn't happen anymore and maybe then it starts to be instead of like 520 ish it's like 550 580 i don't know you know it's like um not all of this stuff happens like in an instant um so it can be very hard to track.

8:16And the people who are going to see it the most are the ones who are like day to day checking because they're, you know, they're shopping maybe over the course of a few weeks or a month or something that for their laptop. And if you see a price change on you, that's it's the it's the worst feeling. It's awful. Yeah. Generally right now, if I was in the market for a new laptop, obviously, I'm probably not going to want to buy a new one because they it seems untenable to afford new new computers right now. What do you think is like the best route? Because there's used obviously but the used prices are probably going up because the new prices are up is it refurb used you know your local facebook marketplace what do you think is the best route uh facebook marketplace i mean like like you can always maybe some people can find some sweet deal locally or you know someone off but i it's just i don't think it's it's you're gonna do a lot of legwork to maybe save not that much yeah uh with stuff like that i think when it comes to refurbs you know usually the safe bet with refurbs is go to a you know a trusted retailer and a lot of times it's actually direct from manufacturers apple's apple's refurbs are practically new like that's like you know you bought the the cpo mercedes or something um and it's like it's practically a new car um it's practically a new laptop uh so and it comes with a warranty and everything and lenovo sells a lot of like uh refurb think pads like so you can get stuff coming from like on the windows side like things that were in like business fleets that are from a few years ago and you can save some good money they're not always gonna be like dirt cheap unless you go much older um because those laptops like maybe some of them like thinkpads like one of the thinkpads can easily be like two thousand dollars plus brand new um they're built like a tank and they they can last a very long time but you know depending on where your budget is you may have to backtrack far enough that you're getting like an older intel chip for example that like these days is just not the same kind of battery life that we're used to seeing on modern chips.

10:13And it might be okay if you're the type of person that just like leaves your laptop plugged in all day, maybe that's fine too. But there are other places like, you know, like actually some sellers on eBay or, you know, do a lot with refurbs and new sales. Ideally you want something that's a trusted seller and has a warranty. And surprisingly, actually Acer has a very good eBay store and it's just where they channel their refurbished through and it's like not just laptops you can also get monitors and stuff like that and it's it's a certain a lot of it's budget budget oriented some of it's like you wouldn't want to touch because old or whatever but like if you look every so often you might might find something good and then like there's obviously best buy best buy sells lots of reverbs right they sell um open box items i bought a gaming laptop back in the pandemic it was an open box and at the time it was actually a great deal i just saved me a couple hundred bucks on something that was already discounted, it's like, I maybe saved like$400 to$500 then on something that would have been a little tougher to swallow if I bought it new.

11:12So do you think the best channel for most of these things, because most of these manufacturers don't directly sell you computers, right? Like a lot of people buy their computers on eBay. A lot of people in my day-to-day life have actually hit me up to ask about services like back market. That seems to be an industry that's kind of popped up recently. They certify these repairs, these refurbs. Do you trust those sites? Like, what do you think about those? uh i haven't used back market i only know like a little bit about it and i think it's just one of those things like you have to be it's just be a bit buyer beware and anywhere and you know use use your wits the cliche of if it seems too good to be true it probably is like still holds true like you know well if i remember years ago like you know when when in school and buying camera equipment it's like oh how does this random site have this for a couple hundred dollars it's like a two thousand dollar lens and it's like well that's because it's fake you know that's just It's a scam.

12:03So if you see something scammy or see something weird, just avoid it. Just don't. And just you have to kind of come to terms with the fact that some of these cases, there may not be a very good deal to get. But you can rest assured that most likely if you buy when you need right now and if you determine that you really need that upgrade now or you've got a kid in your household going to college or stepping up to high school and they need a laptop, they don't get anyone assigned to them, then you got to pull the trigger. I think, you know, just know that it's, there's a good chance it might just get more expensive from here.

12:36So you're probably, maybe you're just getting a deal even at MSRP in some cases. Tell yourself that. Just tell yourself and just, you know, we can make ourselves feel better however we try. Yeah. I mean, on that note, like a lot of people who might be buying their first gaming laptop or their first like workhorse laptop, they probably are wondering if the performance of these computers has actually gone up significantly in the last few years, right? Because they might be looking into used computers, they might be looking into computers from three or four years ago. Do you think that it's important to buy a new-ish model now?

13:10Or how far back do you think you can go before the performance starts degrading enough that it's just not worth it anymore? Okay, so I'm going to say some broad strokes. I think for like, let's look at like thin and lights and productivity laptops real quick. Basically, anything Apple, if you're getting an m series chip you're you're mostly fine right like i know plenty of people that still use m1 macbook airs i've seen i see you folks in our comments uh on reviews and saying like my m1 macbook air is still going great and i'm that's awesome like it's still a very workable laptop uh and so i think generally apple if you got m series you're probably good for a while if you got an m series with eight gigabytes of ram and two gigabytes of storage and it's like an m1 it's like okay well you how much runway do you have is the question i think that's what it kind of comes down to when you buy you're buying an older one you're it's just like buying a used car right like picture like your the odometer has already been run up a bit how long is it going to last you before you start to feel the pain of maybe that's a limited ram or uh or that that you know slightly older chip when it comes to like intel uh the last gen like lunar like chips are actually very good and a very nice balance of efficiency and power um can do a little bit of gaming uh if you're not asking it to do very much those are like if you can find a good lunar lake deal do it i love intel lunar like laptops for the most part it's the chip um and it's kind of a similar story with amd's uh strict point okay but then also with uh like uh the snapdragon laptop snapdragon x uh there's a now a snapdragon x2 generation and the x's are pretty fine like especially if you want you know a lot of battery life in a windows laptop they are not the best with graphics, but ultimately you're getting a pretty efficient and powerful enough laptop for everyday productivity stuff.

14:58Those are all the last few years. Once you go back farther, like Intel, like Alder Lake, that's where things start to kind of get a little bit fishy. We're like, okay, that's still a good chip. I believe that was 12th gen, off the top of my head. And that's where, though, battery life is going to not be the same. We're getting spoiled now by like Apple, Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, all offering like good to great battery life in a lot of cases, except for like obviously big gaming laptops that are not meant to run on battery. So yeah, if you're picking any of those, just you're probably pretty good. And then when it comes to gaming, I think you could maybe go as far back as like, like let's just simplify it and talk like NVIDIA, like RTX GPUs.

15:44Yeah, that's a little simpler when we're talking about gaming specifically. way yeah yeah so like you know obviously there's a 50 series now um you're spending a minimum of a thousand dollars even to get into like an rtx 50 50 right baseline i recently reviewed the uh hp well hyper x but hp owns them uh hyper x omen 15 um which is a pretty fine like entry-level gaming laptop but it's just one of those things that it kind of sucks that they feel like an 800 laptop that you can get sometimes a little cheaper and now it's like i think it was like 1200 or something or like just over a thousand. Maybe you get it around a thousand-ish when it's on sale or something.

16:19So you don't need 50 series. And I was like, the 40 series stuff is still very good. You're just missing out on like the latest NVIDIA DLSS stuff in like multi-frame gen. That's probably fine. Ask yourself what games you want to play on it. And I'm like, are you looking to play like indie games? Like, are you playing Friendslops? Which I have an evolution right now, you know. A lot of people are playing indie games right now. Yeah, and it's like that plays on like so much that stuff can play on a potato you know so it's like don't stress it too much um but if you want to be at the cutting edge of like whatever the latest you know game with ray tracing and like if you want to play crimson desert at like max settings i'm sorry you need like a really beefy machine um yeah you know so or you just have to learn to compensate with playing in 1080 playing on medium to low settings uh not having all the fancy stuff but if you want a workable frame rate Okay.

17:11But for gaming, I think even a 30 series may be viable if you get a really good deal, but I would stick 40 series for now. And, you know, ideally, so you have, again, you're a little more, just a tiny bit more feature-proof. Well, my desktop PC is still a 1080 Ti. So I feel like, you know, if you're just playing Dota 2 every day like me, then you're probably okay. That's fine. That's like the goat of like desktop, desktop CPUs. Even plays on my MacBook very well. So, you know, it's great. It's great. Support for the show comes from Framer. If your team wants a website that looks and feels handcrafted, but is still fast to ship, check out Framer.

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19:11Whether you're gunning for a promotion, building your own business, or just trying to get a seat at the table, Shelby breaks down everything you need to know, the rich closer mindset, the biggest sales myths holding you back, and why learning how to sell is actually the fastest path to financial freedom. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash your rich BFF. I want to get into some very specific recommendations because I feel like people want to know what should they buy right now. But before we do the recommendations, what are your criteria for buying a laptop in each of these categories?

19:45Do you have like a general criteria that you try to stick to? Not entirely, but I just, I think broad strokes, like I wrote up like a back to school laptop buying guide. It's like a kind of like survival guide for, you know, buying a laptop for school now. And while it's, you know, back to school aimed, really anybody can use it as a rubric. And ultimately, I know that when we talk about laptops that are like$2 ,000 and up, you know, when we think of like, like David, you and I of both photographers and come from photo backgrounds in part at least um you know when we think of like macbook pros and or you know a beefy mac mini or or a well-equipped or even entry-level like mac studio like we think of like two thousand three thousand dollars it's like it's a lot of money but like this is kind of what you end up getting when you're getting really when you're like a pro or semi-pro or freelancer or whatever you need that power yeah right for for those creative apps but i know for most people like they are not spending nowhere near two thousand so what i was looking at was ideally sub$1 ,000 okay um and uh ultimately i want like i want to find people like like i said chips that give you some some headroom and some and some leeway so that you can use it for some years to come and without it feeling like ideally without it feeling like a penalty box there are some laptops out there that you open the lid and you are instantly being punished for using it uh you want a nice bright screen it's barely it's visible in in indoors in like a blanket fort.

21:13Okay. Like that's, that's, you know, don't even think of bringing this thing outside. Uh, you want like a trackpad that works. Like you want, you know, speakers that usually are audible and like, not just going to mangle any music that you play. Like these are the kinds of things I think about, because I think while a lot of people, uh, will settle for that, you know, a garbage laptop they bought for like$200, whether used or somehow new, um, I think you should try to get something that's at least has some quality of life. So I look at things like the speaker quality, the screen quality. I'm hoping for passable in all fronts.

21:48But ultimately, the easy answer for laptop to talk about right now, go ahead and curse me out, but sorry, it's Mac with Neo. It's just, again, it's easy to recommend because it's like, when I reviewed it, I called it the Mac for the masses. And it's just, it's the kind of thing you can easily give to a student, especially like a middle school into like high school student, and just not worry. It works really well. And it's got great battery life. It's got a great balance. And it has all those things that are really nice, like the speaker quality, the screen quality, the trackpad that you can click anywhere corner to corner.

22:21The webcam is great. You know, it's like it's got, it's a full package. And a lot of other, a lot of Windows laptops in a similar price range, you're making compromises somewhere. The MacBook Air is kind of the ideal because again, as I mentioned, you can use it for like a very long time. It should give you lots of headroom and lots of years of use. But if you can't stretch over$1 ,000, then the Neo is maybe fine. Do you think the Neo is still good with its price increase? Because now it starts at$699? I do. I think, honestly, when they announced it, and all the rumors were flying, I was expecting that to be the original price they announced to that.

22:56And when they came in at$599, I was actually thoroughly surprised and happy. Because I like people being able to buy good laptops for fair prices or great prices. I still think it's as good as it is it's like yes it's not the deal it was but considering everything else it's still great and yeah other options though like on the Windows side things like I put in the buying guide I'll just give some quick call-outs too Asus ZenBook A14 Snapdragon X chip but Asus has some really nice hardware especially if you like thin light designs like in ZenBooks with OLED screens in some or a lot of cases depending on the model.

23:37I really love the A16, the bigger one. It's like, those things are like super light. Like the A16 weighs as much as a MacBook Neo and it's a 16-inch laptop. Wow. It's crazy, but that's a much more expensive laptop. The A14, it's like its little sibling and I think you can get that now on sale for like under a thousand bucks, like 700-ish or so. That's very fair. Can they still game okay? Or is that kind of limited by the... Don't buy them for gaming. Don't buy a Snapdragon laptop to play games. Like, I think you can play Fortnite now. I think that's the latest. There's a whole thing with game compatibility with ARM-based laptops.

24:12I want it to get better, but don't just go into it knowing that I treat it as like this is a Mac, basically, in terms of game compatibility. There's going to be a few things that play just fine, but they're not going to be anything latest and greatest, and it's going to be sparse. So maybe get it for school so you don't spend all your time gaming instead. Because you can't. Yeah, exactly. They are a productivity laptop, and that's what they're good for. And then I think I mentioned like, you know, getting like a refurb, you know, little think pad. And then the other thing, one, in addition to the HP Omni book is the Acer Aspire 14 AI.

24:47Let's just ignore that AI is in so many of these names. But that's one of those cases where it's a lunar lake, Intel lunar lake chip. You're buying that for the chip. It's pretty affordable when it's on sale. I think they can dipped to like 600-ish or even lower and then you're getting um an okay to not so great laptop around it like the keyboard's fine the trackpad's fine the screen is almost garbage uh the speakers are also almost garbage like just if you can tolerate it though you're getting a great processor in there plus like tons of ports like i think it has thunderbolt 4 as well so you're getting speedy ports thanks to intel okay yeah so that's pretty good for that yeah it's just one of those things like if you can overcome its uh its flaws around that chip and that's a nice laptop for a very low price if we can just throw away the under a thousand thing i still want to like stay as affordable as possible but i want to know the best gaming laptop to buy right now do you have just like a recommendation for that because i think a lot of people are a lot of people want something that can do it all you know what i mean yeah and they're willing to spend the money but they just don't want to spend the current amount of money that something insane costs yeah no i got you um um asus's uh tough line is uh is usually a pretty strong contender in that space their rog or i say rog the rog lines like like the stuff like the rog strix like the strix g models they have like a bunch of different tiers and they get very expensive but like those are those are fine laptops again in those cases you're buying the you're paying a lot for the the gpu and they're going to have some shortcomings of like build quality and stuff like that but they're they're fine and they're big and heavy.

26:29Lenovo's Legion series has some really nice options. They also have like a lower end lock, Lenovo lock. That's like they're more budget friendly. I haven't really used any of those, but Lenovo's Legion line, like if you look at like a base, like Legion 5i or something is somewhere in that thousand dollar-ish range and it's a fine laptop, you know. But just with any of those like gaming laptops, like you just keep in mind, like don't expect them to get really great battery life um you know and if you can go up to like uh the higher like above 1500 like between 1500 and 2000 dollars if you want like a big beefy like desktop replacement laptop uh for a gaming laptop the msi has some i think it was a crosshair um 18 inch i was like you know how big an 18 inch laptop is crazy you can't even put that in most backpacks it's yeah it's uh i i've traveled with one once and i like it took up like half my suitcase um yeah so uh no but i think it's like that's that's the kind of realm where like you're gonna leave it on a desk you're gonna plug it in and never take it out the battery life doesn't it doesn't matter that dies in two to three hours yeah but nowadays we'd be realistic that you're getting an rtx 5070 mobile chip uh mobile gpu not you know like a 5070 ti or 5080 all that's yeah well about two thousand dollars now so i would think but 5070 is a pretty good spot if you can get it under 2k before we sign off here do you think that i know you can't read the future But do you think that there's any chance that these prices ever come down or is this just our new?

27:56I don't want to say new normal because everyone overuses that. But like, is this the future? Is this what we're just going to have to get used to from here on out? I don't want to be too grim but I fear that this is like this is the future and I'm just kind of hoping it's mitigated that it doesn't just continue getting worse what really sucks is that how you know some of these things will just become more specialized and as they become more specialized we're gonna see I think we're already maybe starting to see some of like the middle falling out where it's like you're gonna have like laptops at the low end and then you're gonna it's I mean and the high end is going to be there, but like the middle might suffer.

28:32And a lot of that middle might be like a lot of those Windows laptops that are in that, like the gaming laptops of the world that are like mid-range, like that are like, always used to be like the good bang for the buck, especially if you were even like a student that like wanted to game, but also like you were going to do some, some slightly heavier work than like a thin light was going to do. Yeah. I think it's going to, it may continue getting rougher before it definitely gets any better. And it's easy to be cynical and think like, well, once the prices get better, are the companies going to lower the prices?

29:00You're right. I don't know. We've seen many time over that a lot of these companies are getting their refunds from all the tariffs and they are not giving it back to consumers or lowering their prices. Yeah, I think that's the most egregious example. I think if there's good competition, then they want to compete. They want to get, even if it's just sales and discounts, to get more people buying their laptops. But if the competition starts to wane because there's just not as many options out there, that's that's tricky too well we'll have to see this is kind of the first like black friday i feel like that we're gonna have where the prices have changed so much do you think that it's worth waiting for that still or is that just not a thing anymore uh you're right i think it might still be worth waiting it's just i think what's gonna happen is it's gonna you're gonna see like uh and we've seen this a little bit here and there where like the the sales are not really like if you look at those historical lows like you use like a price track yeah camel camel camel or keepa and things like that and you see like the historical low was x amount and it was like oh that was like three years ago it's never reaching that price again and it's like now it's like maybe the sale price will dip down to uh you know what it kind of what the old msrp was going or just slightly below that case in point like uh i think it was actually last year uh i advised a family member to buy the surface laptop 13 inch uh i love that laptop uh it was like 800 when it came out my family member bought it for i think like 650 okay it was a such a i'm like i'm like i don't think you have any worries wearing those on arm just just buy it like i think you're gonna love it um and she was coming from like a very old like a macbook and she loves it so it's worked out great for her that price will never happen again like that that price like now that laptop is$950 instead of$800 and with half the RAM that she got at$650.

30:56It's just, that's, we have to, you just have to accept that. Well, Antonio, thanks for coming on the show. Hopefully in the coming year or so, maybe the RAM shortage will not be as bad as it is now. We can hope. There's nothing wrong with hoping. Hoping is free. Hope is what we all need right now. Thanks for having me on, David. That's it for The Verge Cast. Let us know what you think. Call the hotline 866-VERGE11 or email vergecastattheverge.com. To support everything we do here and get ad-free podcasts, subscribe to The Verge. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. The Vergecast is produced by Josh Cajas, Eric Gomez, Brandon Kiefer, and Travis Larchuk.

31:31See you next time.