Into the iPad Confusion Zone

23:43It can solve everybody's problems because everybody has different problems, but everybody has problems, right? And the iPad can be the solution to all those problems. And if you have a subset of problems, I think that's true. Like if you want to play a certain kind of game, the iPad is the best thing that exists on earth to play that kind of game. Alex and I talk about reading on the show all the time, and it's like the iPad is the best reading device. Like it's not close. It just is. it's the best Minecraft device if you want to watch videos about Minecraft and then play Minecraft right like if you have this one need it's a really expensive device but it works the problem is Apple has made it so vastly complicated to figure out which one is the right one for your needs that you're going to start to like literally push people away because I just I'm looking at these pencils and the answer for me is I'm not going to buy one because what is happening I'm going to buy the$10 knockoff on Amazon that just works with all of them it's going to be fine Like Apple used to be really, really good at this too, right?

24:35Like Apple would go and kill something just to keep their lineup as clean as possible. And over the years, it's gotten messier and messier. And that's fine in a lot of ways. It's good. Like there's a lot of phones you can choose from. They're very affordable. Yeah. All of that. But with the iPads in particular, it's like, no, you've made it too messy. It's just too messy. Because I don't know. For most – well, Apple is so big now. They sell some new products. They need something at every price point. Right. And so they just bring things down at price. So that makes a little bit of sense to me.

25:03A little. The old one's still here if you want it. They particularly do that with the iPhones. With the iPad, I think they don't – they have to articulate a reason that you're not going to buy the cheapest thing, which I think in this case is a Fire tablet. Well, and not only that, I mean, I think we could sit here and I could pretty quickly explain to you the difference between the four models of the iPhone, right? Like there are features that you get on one that you don't get on the other. Other than screen bigger thing more expensive, can you tell me the difference between the entry-level iPad and the 12.9-inch iPad Pro?

25:36It has a LiDAR sensor, David. I don't know what you're talking about. Everyone is constantly out here doing LiDAR stuff. It's the future. I will say that in my new office in the new house, Liam, our producer, legitimately has carpet samples for me to de-echo this room and treat this room that I have to go look at. And he was like, send me some dimensions. And I did the LiDAR room scanning thing with the iPhone. And it was super cool. And then I ended up with a file that I had no idea how to use it or send it to anyone. You're like, it's here. This lightning round has gone on way too long. It's a confusion zone.

26:12Yeah. That's all I'm saying. But also, my prediction is at some point in the next 12 months, either this is going to get much worse or Apple is just going to clean it up drastically. And I would bet on that. I think we're going to get a bunch of new iPads that make a lot more sense very soon. I hope the latter. I'm going to bet on more confusing. Just to be contrary. I have no insight. One of the iPads is going to be a soundbar. Yeah! We got a lot of emails of people who are like, you don't know what you're talking about. They're definitely making a soundbar. Thank you. No way. I'm going to get printed out emails delivered to me at work before Apple releases a soundbar.

26:44And they're all going to be the soundbar emails. All right. Here's my lightning round one. I'm actually really excited about this. I would have done the whole show on this product. Elgato has a new thing called the prompter, which is just a$280 teleprompter. I want it so bad. With a bunch of lens adapters so you can like screw it right onto the end of various DSLR lenses. It has other mounts for whatever. It's a display with a mirror and a little bit of software. Like the tiniest bit of software to be able to let them claim that they've done something here. But it's a USB-C display with a mirror and some clever mounting hardware so you can put it right on a DSLR.

27:21I think this is one of the funnest products ever. Yeah. It's just a teleprompter but for people. Yeah. And it's like itty bitty. Because right now if you wanted to do teleprompter and you didn't want to go spend money on an actual one, you'd have to get an iPad. And like there was a whole setup you could do. So in the pandemic, I was given a giant teleprompter to do review videos. Like we did a bunch of review videos. I remember we did one. I think it was the first M1 MacBook Airs. Dieter and I like reviewed them when we were home. I think it's a MacBook Pro. We did a bunch of reviews at home basically.

27:54So the studio sent me a prompter so I could like read the reviews. This is a good time to tell everybody, by the way, that every single thing Neelah says on the Vergecast is scripted. And he's reading off a prompter right now. He's just that good. Obama's in my ear right now. Listen, everybody. so we have one to mount an iPad on a meaningfully good prompter required like the world's biggest heaviest tripod it's just like a huge heavy thing that you need to have to get an iPad and then you need special software on the iPad it's all just a mess this is just a little USB-C display that you like plug into your computer it does have a little bit of software a little bit of teleprompter run some textual software but the most important thing is because it's just a monitor you can just slide windows to it.

28:41Yeah. So you can just slide the Google Doc right to it and read that as opposed to like having to send it to some other weird software that I needed to have in an iPad. It's small, so it can be mounted on a variety of things, that mean the heavy iPad. And importantly, you can just put Zoom windows because you can just put windows in. So you can just like make eye contact with people while you're video conferencing, which is the secret of my success. Okay, quick. Can we talk about this though? Because this has come up a bunch, and I both want to talk about this now, and I also want people to email us.

29:13Vergecasts at theverge.com. Is it good or horrifying when the person you're talking to in a meeting is staring dead into the camera and attempting to make eye contact with you? I believe it is horrifying and bad, and it should be illegal to look at your camera during a Zoom meeting. But I genuinely, like, you, Neelai, like, went way out of your way and rigged up a whole system where it actually appears like you're looking at the camera as you're talking to somebody who is on your screen. Yeah. I hate it. I think it's weird to exist in a world where no one's ever looking at each other. And particularly in the pandemic, it just really impacted me that no one was ever looking at anything.

29:53And one way that I could signal that I was paying attention was by looking at the camera. Because necessarily, if I'm looking at the camera, I'm not just looking at some web page. Now, with the Elgato prompter, which is$280, I can definitely look at a webpage.

30:13It is an interesting thing though, because I feel like the thing that so many people learned during the webcam is like, everyone is always just kind of looking six inches below you. It's like, I always just think about it as like, everyone you're talking to is always staring at your belly button, right? Like that's the angle we've all gotten used to in these video chats. And in the abstract, I agree, that's weird. And it would be better if we all just like barreled the camera and stared at each other. But also the funny thing is if I'm looking at the camera right now, I'm actually not looking at you.

30:40No, you're looking up. I'm looking at the camera. And all of the norms of this are weird where like there have been all these studies that show when we do Zoom calls, actually we spend most of the time looking at ourselves and not the people that we talk to. And that's like exhausting and emotionally problematic and really bad because we're not supposed to be looking at ourselves this much in life. But just this prompter is like, if you're somebody who like makes videos and streams or whatever, and like you're the creator and they're the audience. I can see why you look into the camera and that makes sense.

31:07But these new norms of like virtual conversations are so odd to me. And I just don't know the right answer. But I do think something like this where I can feasibly be looking at you and the camera at the same time is very cool. So like I'm into this for that reason, but I still think it's weird. Yeah. I mean, I love it. Well, especially because I can put a fancy camera behind it. Have you seen the TikTok ad for the center cam? I'm bringing Sony imaging webcam back. with the Elgato. I'm going to buy you an HDMI card. You're not leaving the office before I have a folding phone and you have an HDMI card.

31:42You've seen the thing. It's like a center camera. I think that's what it's called. And it's just like a little itty-bitty camera sensor on a stick. And the idea is that it is not in the way. And it's just a bad camera. This is my problem with it. I want it to look good because I'm a precious cameraman. You want to look nice, yeah. So what gets me at this is like, oh, you can put a good camera back there. Yeah. And that I think changes my relationship with – I'm definitely getting one. The other thing that I think is super important about this is we just keep seeing this over and over again. All these companies, the little companies, are making gadgets for creators.

32:20Like there's a real market there. Those people have needs. The needs are not perfectly met by pro hardware or pro cameras. There's a sweet spot there for Twitch streamers and YouTubers and all that. and I think it is fascinating. I thought we would see a bunch of that stuff for work from home in the pandemic and we've definitely seen some of it, some like cooler little docs. That market petered out because people were not, like you buy it once and it goes away and it's not growing. Hey, I want to grow up to be a streamer or hey, I run a small company and making content is the best market I can do and these things and I need some help doing it well.

32:57That is a large and growing market and just the amount of gadgets that are coming out to solve that problem is actually pretty fascinating. Yeah. And I, you know, I'm a gadget nerd, so I'm excited about it. But I think there's something durable there about the creator platforms that we haven't quite seen yet. Like, YouTuber's been around for a long time. The stuff to make YouTube videos well, there's not actually a lot of it. Like, you still kind of get funneled into buying a Sony camera and Premiere if you want to make a YouTube video. Yeah, it's like podcasting where the first time you do it, you have to go and you Google and there's like three websites.

33:31they look like absolute garbage and they give you the actual list of stuff you want to buy. And it's all like pro stuff if you want it to be good. Even in that market, there's like a new Shure mic that's like USBC. Yeah, and we've started to see in the last couple of years, we started to see like, oh, we used to I'd have to go buy a whole rig in order for my podcasting setup to sound nice. And now it's like pretty inexpensive for most people to just sound nice out of the box. And I think we're getting rapidly to that place with cameras and that whole setup. and soon in the lights and everything else, like everybody's going to look the same.

34:04I can't wait to put up the gamer lights in the office. Liam, they're coming. They're coming. This lightning round just keeps going on. Alex, what's yours? All right, so mine is Analog, who makes really, really good emulators slash consoles, is doing an N64, and I personally am very, very excited because the N64 is the hardest, maybe not the hardest, but probably one of the hardest consoles to emulate. It's super hard to emulate in software because the processor was all custom. And so you have to have a really, really powerful computer to play a lot of N64 games if you're emulating them. This you'll be able to play carts.

34:40It's got an FPGA that mimics the original hardware. So it should be a lot faster. It should play carts natively. And then if you do somehow get software on it, it would play the software natively, the emulated games natively. And I'm just super, super excited for this thing. Like a little too excited. I'm going to have one. The lack of emulation between 64 has made it like almost a forgotten console. Yeah, because everybody's like, okay, what was on it? Goldeneye, which like— Important. The greatest game of all time. Yeah. Mario 64, perhaps the most important game of all time. Yeah, I mean, Mario 64, there was obviously the two Legends of Zeldas, and those are about it when people talk about it.

35:19But if you grew up in that age, it was like, nah, you played a lot of games. Like Chris Welch is always like, WCW. to be you. There was also the first Mario Tennis, which was the video game in my life I have been best at. It wasn't the first Mario Tennis. That was for the Virtual Boy. Wow, David, how dare you forget the Virtual Boy? How dare you? How dare you? Yeah, it was the first one. Let's not call it. The first one people played, do you mean? Technically, the first one was like the one someone made in their lab in Japan, but I don't consider that one real either. The first one was for the N64.

35:56All right, I'm excited about this. There's no pictures of it yet. There's like shadowy, rendery things. It's going to come later. I know we'll probably be talking to that team and hearing more from Analog soon. So I'm really, really excited. And it just looks cool and also closer to a GameCube from Analog. And that's what I really want because they are so expensive on eBay. And I really regret selling mine. Can I tell you my story of GameCube regret? Yes. This is so deeply... The face alone says it's going to be a great story. All right. I'll tell you after the break. Liam says I have to tell you after the break.

36:29We'll be right back, everybody, with the story of GameCube regret.

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39:03All right, we're back. What is it? Here's a story from my youth about the GameCube. Okay. So there is a bar by my apartment in college called The Cove. All right. And on Thursday nights, The Cove had$4 pitchers. So we all went to the Cove quite a bit. Is this a story from like the 1930s? Yeah. Like what are we going to do? This is like a real thing. In Hyde Park in Chicago, the Cove had$4 pictures. So we were just there. We were there a lot. It was Milwaukee's best though, right? No, it was Miller Lite. It was like any garbage domestic beer. Okay. But you can tell that I grew up again in the 50s.

39:36And this is the time that the GameCube was the state of the art console. Yeah. The war had just ended. Everybody was. And yeah, so we're there a lot. We know all the people who come through, and one day Heineken is at the Cove, and they're having a Madden tournament. And I'm like, I'm in the Madden tournament. I don't know if you've ever tried to play Madden on the GameCube controller. It makes no sense. Everyone was horrible at Madden on the GameCube. I want you to go pull over in your car and look at a picture of a GameCube controller and imagine trying to play Madden on this thing. Best controller ever made.

40:13for playing three games. Soul Calibur. In classic Nintendo style, they're like, we made this controller to play one specific Mario game. It's a game where Luigi fights ghosts with water. And there's only one, there's essentially one button on the GameCube controller and all the rest of them are tiny and thousands of miles away from each other. I love it. And Madden is about quickly deciding what button to press. And everyone's like, I don't know, yellow. It's a disaster. So this is the longest Madden tournament of all time, fueled by$4 pitchers of beer. So on top of it, everyone is destroyed. The long story is I won the Madden tournament, and I came home with a GameCube with the Heineken logo silkscreened all over the top, which my friends and I all called the Heinecube.

41:03And if I only had held on to this thing, Max would be going to college tomorrow. I'd be like, take her now, Harvard. Yeah. Heinecube, baby. That's my story. I thought that was a sad story. That's an awesome story. Well, I don't have it anymore. Oh, okay. It's the loss of money. I think I gave it to my friend Robert when he graduated. Robert, if you're listening, I'll send you a t-shirt in exchange for the Heineken Cube. Neel, I have really good news for you. Huh? You can buy right now six Nintendo Heineken GameCubes for the low, low price of$20 ,000. No, are you kidding me? No, that's real. I just found this on eBay.

41:41Bye. like a lot of six Heinecubes? Six Heinecubes, three purple, three black. There were only a hundred of them made, according to the eBay listing. $20 ,000. I had one. That could have been you. 33 people have this on their watch list. I'm just saying. I had one of these things for three years. Not anymore. I'm so annoyed with myself. The Vergecast is over, everybody. We're done for the day. I've got to go back in time to play Madden on GameCube so my daughter can go to college. I have to invent a time machine and tell my drunk 22-year-old self, you hold on to that GameCube. Don't you give it away.

42:25Much worse. I've been playing the new Madden. I have no idea how this game works anymore. When I describe Madden as knowing what button to push quickly, that is no longer true. It's like team management now, right? No, that's a whole other part of it. There's like a whole Pokemon version of Madden you can play. But now you have to know where to look and you have to like – you have to know like six buttons to press at the same time. The game is so hard that they've added bullet time to it. Nope, nope, nope. Your football has gotten too hard. It's like this isn't how this works for anyone. All right.

42:55Let's carry on with our all lightning round show. Although this is kind of like the Tesla round because Tesla had earnings. There's a lot of news buried in Tesla earnings. I will quickly start by saying as long as we're talking about Elon, X, the artist formerly known as Twitter, rolled out a plan where in two countries they're going to start charging people a dollar to sign up on the web to keep away the bots. I don't know about you. If I, for example, had access to a bot farm, I would quickly realize that I could just bankrupt Elon Musk with credit card fees. I don't know if this plan is going to work.

43:28I don't have access to a bot farm. I wish no ill will to anyone. I'm just saying. It's a thing. It seems like you opened the door to a particular kind of problem with this plan. We'll set that aside. Yeah. Tesla earnings, though, are kind of like all over the place. Do you want to start with the Cybertruck or do you want to start with the money? Let's start with the Cybertruck. All right. Here's the quote. Elon Musk says, we dug our own grave with the Cybertruck because it's so complicated and so hard to make. And ugly. There's that aspect of it, I would say. Throwing it out there, just a little feeling I have.

44:03They're going to deliver the first few on November 30th at the factory in Texas, the gigafactory in Texas. They have not said how much these will cost or to whom they will be delivered. Concerning. You get the feeling these are like show deliveries. Kimball Musk will take delivery of a Cybertruck. It's like one of those things. It's like who is buying them for what price? There's no price release. The only people buying them are obviously in a pre-existing relationship with Tesla, and they will take delivery. Upon delivery, the price will be revealed. Again, not how most people buy a car. Just put that out there.

44:42Although I will say, if any company can make that a thing, it's Tesla. Yeah, I think that's— The specific hold this company has over a subset of people where they can just like— Oh, and like Ferrari. I guess Ferrari does kind of do that now. The ultra high-end hypercar manufacturers. It's like invitation only and then you find out afterwards. Yeah. But look at a Ferrari and look at a Cybertruck. Which one of those do you want to have enough money and spend it on it? Like if you're that rich. I can't wait for that moment to be a TikTok. With a picture of a Ferrari and a picture of a Cybertruck.

45:19Which one do you want? The Cybertrucks that we've seen, and we've now seen a lot of pictures of these things in the wild. They look like crap. Yeah. I think reasonable people can disagree on whether the Cybertruck is a cool-looking vehicle or not. It's personally not my thing, but I know it is lots of people's thing. Fine. The ones they're making look like shit. They are poorly made. Elon Musk has talked a lot about the machine tolerances and how close everything has to be. They're out there with essentially duct tape holding the pieces together. They're not making this thing well right now. And I think it's very funny that the people who are going to get the first ones are like the diehards.

45:57Either the Tesla diehards or the Elon Musk diehards or the Cybertruck diehards. And they're essentially going to get cars that look like I built them. And, like, that's not good. Yeah. So let me read you this quote, the rest of the we dug our own grave quote. And I want to see if people can make the connection to the other person who spoke like this. We dug our own grave with the Cybertruck, said Musk. The Cybertruck is one of those special products that only comes along once in a long while. and special products that come along once in a long while are just incredibly difficult to bring to market to reach volume and to be prosperous.

46:30So the first part of that is Steve Jobs. Yep. I'm very excited to be standing here to you today. Every now and again, you're lucky to make one special product like the Mac or the iPod or the iPhone. That's how he began the iPhone event is almost this line exactly. What he did not say at the end of the iPhone event was the iPhone is going to be incredibly difficult to bring to market in a way that is prosperous. We barely know how to make this thing. And the thing is, like, Apple didn't make phones at the time. Tesla is an existing high-volume car company. The iPhone at the time was barely existent.

47:09Like, all the stories we've heard is, like, it barely worked. It's a miracle the demos came off as well as it did. There were, like, two of them on Earth. Nobody knew how to do anything. And still Steve Jobs got up there and was like, it's fine. We got this. Today, Apple revolutionizes the phone. Like that's what he's saying. So I get – and you look at the cover of the book. There's a real Steve Jobs thing happening with Musk. Oh, yeah. You can – he's – now he's saying the lines, right? He's doing covers. I'm just saying the Cybertruck. The competition is real and exists at volume and scale. And the market for electric pickup trucks right now is not great.

47:47Yeah. Like you can just go get an F-150 Lightning even in the middle of the UAW strike because the people who wanted them bought them. I think GM just cut back production of its electric pickup trucks because they're trying to figure out where the demand is. I asked a friend who only owns trucks. Yeah. Everybody in her family, they're ranchers, so they all own trucks. Everybody around them only drives trucks. You will like don't have small children in their parking lots because all the trucks are so big. Yeah. And I said, are you excited about the Cybertruck? It's coming. And she's like, what is that?

48:22And I was like, ooh, that's like the core – that should be the core audience. Like, oh, you drive it all over the ranch and then you come back and you plug it in at night. And they're like, who? Yeah. So it feels bad. A lot of people are going to – a lot of people buy Tesla cars. We should get into the rest of the earnings and we can dive into what that exactly means. I'm just saying this product is entering an incredibly saturated market full of very strong opinions. and its competition did not sit still. I think what Musk is talking about here is like stainless steel manufacturing techniques and like unibody casting and that stuff makes the product special.

48:58But then it still has to go be a product. And in particular, Alex knows pickup truck owners. I know pickup truck owners. If you read pickup truck forums, these are some of the most customized, most highly personalized vehicles that exist. And they spend a ton of money on them. Yeah, the amount of money you can throw at a pickup truck. They're like platforms unto themselves. And if this one isn't durable and it doesn't work, whoo. Yeah. Hey, do you think people in America have opinions about pickup trucks? Like if you're driving your$100 ,000 triangle down the road and there's panel gaps, do you think the people who've been doing like screaming matches about Ford versus GM for 100 years are going to have opinions about this?

49:41It's going to be amazing. Anyway, November 30th, the first deliveries. But I don't think a regular person, let alone a car reviewer, is going to get their hands on this thing until next year. Yeah, I think that's right. Maybe late next year. So that's the Cybertruck. There was no discussion of the wiper. I know everyone wants to know. There's only one thing I care about. People have seen them. They've taken pictures of the truck. I'm saying if you encounter one of these trucks, don't take pictures of the side. We know what shape that is. take pictures of the wiper, man. Get up in it. I want macro shots of the wiper.

50:16Take the wiper off the Cybertruck and bring it to Neelai. I've heard a theory about how that wiper is constructed and none of the images I've seen so far are confirmed or denied. Is it going to like whip? I can't. I don't want to. It's an unsourced. I don't want to put the energy into the world. Okay. It's going to whip. I need some photographs of this thing up close and personal to confirm or deny the theory that I've heard. I'm not telling you what it is. Okay.

50:46Other little Tesla earnings news. The actual money at Tesla is looking pretty weird. Yeah, it's good and bad all at the same time. I think the numbers they reported, I just wrote it down. It was$23.4 billion in revenue, which was up from the same time last year. They're making money. They're selling cars. Earnings way down. They made a little less than$2 billion in profit, down from$3.3 billion on about the same amount of revenue last year. So Tesla has a bunch of reasons for this, right? They're like, they are making big upgrades in the factories, so production goes down a little bit, which means you're going to make less money.

51:25Also, something AI and supercomputers that I don't know. Elon Musk just says robots a lot, and people are like, oh, that makes sense for your earnings, and I don't care about that. The biggest thing is they keep cutting the price. These used to be expensive cars, and they're really not expensive cars anymore in a lot of places. And I think what is happening is that Tesla is selling more cars because it's making them much, much cheaper to get in a time when that is not a lot of company strategy at the moment, which has been sort of fascinating. And Tesla for a long time had crazy profit margins.

52:00Like cars, Neela, you probably understand this much better than I do, but my impression is cars are not a high margin industry. And for Tesla, they have been, and that is starting to go away in a big way. It was like 20 % margin in some of the earlier years, and now it's like not that. Most big car companies make all of their money on financing. And so they have just sort of brought the margin of the cars themselves down because they assume that you're going to lease the car, and they'll make all the money on the lease. and then you'll give the car back to them and they'll sell it again at a much higher margin.

52:34So like a company like BMW basically assumes they're going to sell every three series twice. And that's just like baked into the model. And that's why BMW in particular is like CarPlay is here when you lease it. And when you buy a pre-owned one, it costs$40. Like they're able to monkey with it because they know the dynamics of how they sell that vehicle or just not what people expect. Tesla also had the benefit early on of having consolidated basically all of the car into a single compute stack. Right. So like your average GM or Ford vehicle has like 5 ,000 suppliers in it and 5 ,000 different microcontrollers.

53:12And Tesla was like, there's one. Right? And they consolidated. And it was more expensive and it was a harder way to architect a car. And now it's – every car company you see will tell you that's what they're going to do too. But they just had less stuff in the car. Less engine stuff, less transmission components, less exhaust stuff, but also, more importantly, fewer microcontrollers and computers. And they owned all the code. So they just had this ability to create all that margin. But now if you look at Tesla's financing rates, sky high, while the big automakers are like back to 0.9 % because they just desperately want you to buy a car.

53:47And it's like they're fighting a war there where they're just lowering prices. Elon went on a rant about interest rates. Because he hasn't, I don't think they have that business, like the financing business the big car makers do. So like in the middle of this earnings, they asked him something really silly, right? Let's see, he answered a question about the Tesla and he compared it to the RAV4 for some reason, which I thought was interesting. So he says, if our car costs the same as a RAV4, no one would buy a RAV4, or at least they would be very unlikely to, which is a bold proclamation. But then he said, I think since so many people who buy cars, especially in the US, can't afford to wait for tax credits or something, our car is still much more expensive than a RAV4 when you look at it that way.

54:35Which is like, I'm not 100 % sure what he's talking about. But he's got a lot of thoughts about how people who make a lot of money don't understand what life is like for people who don't make as much money. And I think the case he's trying to make is that it's good that prices are going down. which like, sure, I am pro this. I'm not sure how he ties that back to interest rates. Maybe you can make sense of this. So he's basically like, interest rates are too high, people can't finance these cars, right? And then he's saying, our car's more expensive, and so it's even harder to finance them. And that's what I'm saying.

55:04Tesla has not built up that low zero interest rate financing. That's just not where they've made their money. And their valid opinion say that's a better way to do it, like BMW selling every car twice because they assume the first purchaser will finance or lease it, you can have a lot of opinions, right? I think you should. But it's just true that in the market today, Tesla just, like, sells cars. Yeah, and it doesn't sell them very well. Like, this is a company that is actually pretty bad at the whole finance and just, like— Right. On Tesla's website, they're like, here are the three ways you can buy this car.

55:39You can finance it, you can lease it, or you can buy it in cash. And, like, they kind of want you to just buy it in cash. Right. And I think they probably sold a lot of Model S's in cash, actually. And, you know, they want to take Bitcoin for their cars. Like, they've pioneered a new way and they don't move the prices and there's no negotiation and all that stuff. But what is happening is he's bringing the price of the cars down, reducing the margin. And his investors on the call are asking him, are you also reducing the cost of the car to preserve your margin? He's got a quote here that says, it's like Game of Thrones for pennies.

56:10That's how he describes reducing costs at Tesla. Which is actually a great quote. And I think what is happening is he's feeling all of this pressure from high interest rates, weird economic environments. He calls credit card interest rates too serious. Yeah. Right. He's got this real populist streak in him. Yeah. And I think what he's basically saying is the market isn't fair to me at Tesla. Everyone should want to buy my car. Like why are you pushing a RAV4? You know? You should want a Model 3. Which is goofy because nobody wants it. I mean, a lot of people obviously do want a Model 3, but it's not a well-made car.

56:52Like a RAV4 is pretty well-made. It's not going to have enormous panel gaps I can fit my whole hand in. It's true. I can't guarantee the same on a Tesla. Right. And then this all transitioned, by the way, into a rant against work from home where David, I believe he compared people who work from home to Marie Antoinette, which is pretty good. Yeah, it is very good. Yeah. And he, I think the question was something relatively benign, like, do you think that more people working from home and thus not commuting and caring a lot about gas mileage in their cars might have an effect on Tesla? Which I would argue is like a perfectly fair question to ask any car company right now.

57:30And I think the quote was, yeah, he said, these are some real Marie Antoinette vibes from people who say, why doesn't everyone work from home? What about all the people that have to come to the factory and build the cars? Which is a funny thing to say from Elon Musk, who has been very demanding about people coming back to work. And all the people who have to go to the restaurant and make your food and deliver your food. It's like, what are you talking about? How detached from reality does the work from home crowd have to be while they take advantage of those who cannot work from home? Interesting, again, sort of populist streak.

57:57Like, funny thing to say from the guy who has been selling very expensive electric cars for a really long time and is also the richest man on earth. Yeah. And also, by the way, the CEO of four companies, thus, by definition, working remotely at three jobs at all times. And has been very demanding about bringing people back to work. Just saying, always working remote. If you can – there's one person who is definitionally always remote from at least one of his jobs. he seems like he's getting it done we'll see so there's just a lot going on with Tesla I think that company particularly as some of the Twitter debt comes due and there's lots of questions about how that will be secured and whether those bankers that's all Tesla money it's propping that up so just a lot of pressure on Tesla right now and it does seem like the push that they've been making is to make a thoroughly mainstream everybody can afford it kind of car and you can see, I think he said something, it was like digging a tunnel with a spoon, I think was the way he phrased it.

59:01And like, I believe him, right? Like it's, I think it's going every dollar to get out of that car from now on in order to make it the price of a like Honda Civic is gonna be a fight. And especially in a time when money is hard to come by and lots of things are really expensive for lots of people, it's gonna be interesting to see. Which is like why you would think, The Cybertruck, which is presumably going to be very expensive, would be like a salve for a lot of that stuff except they can't figure out how to make it, which seems like a problem. It's going to be like$100 ,000, right? If it ever comes out, man.

59:36Look, all I'm saying is I've heard a rumor about the Cybertruck windshield wiper. Yeah. If you can just send me some really close photos of it. I'm not going to tell you what it is. Two other lightning round pieces of the puzzle also important in the context of Tesla and its future. Yes, you can argue about if the cars are well made or not. They're not. It's really just can you justify? Can you make an emotional argument about why it doesn't matter? Sure you can. Lots of people can. Yeah. The moat for Tesla's for so long is if you are in the market for an EV, they have the single best charging network.

1:00:10And then they opened up the standard NACS. The Biden administration said, do you want this money? You got to open your network. Tesla chose the money. They could have not chosen the money. I've seen a lot of people say the Biden administration forced Tesla into opening its network. If dangling huge sums of money and saying I will give you this money if you make this decision is forcing, that's fine. You can believe that that's true. But that is the dynamic here. The Biden administration said we're going to invest in charging infrastructure. Here's a bunch of money for it. And Tesla said we'd like some of that money.

1:00:40So they opened up their network. ChargePoint is going to do NACS plugs into its network of medium experiences. It's fair to say about all of the non-Tesla charging network. This is the one like behind the gas station that you have to charge in. ChargePoint and Electrify America are like the two big networks. Yeah. ChargePoint is the one where like if you were in a small town and you're like, is there a charger here? There's like one in front of the library. You know, like, it's running on 120. It's like, that's ChargePoint. ElectroAmerica is like, we've built a thing to launder VW's reputation for Kieselgate.

1:01:20And they're slightly better. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is broadly true of these two networks. Yeah, no, that's basically right. And no one is very good at making chargers that, like, work over time and aren't broken or wildly complicated whenever you pull into them. Yeah, but ChargePoint's going to do it, and they have a picture. The funniest thing about this is EVSE charging plugs are the least exciting thing to take a picture of, but they have to put photos in their press releases. So it's just like a guy holding a plug. Like, I don't know how to describe this. They're like, here's the photo of us with a Tesla charger, and it's like, here's a guy.

1:02:00The photo is just hand out. It's just a disembodied hand. He's almost charging the car, but he isn't. It's like great. They're going to do it. There are other new chargers. A company called Gravity has new much smaller chargers designed for urban environments. They're really fast actually, faster than any car in America you can take right now. So you see there's a lot of action on the charging front because of NACS. BMW just said they're going to do – like a bunch of other car companies are going to start doing this by 2025. So you see, okay, this thing will be the standard and we're going to eventually stop talking about the supercharger network as a moat.

1:02:36We're going to start talking about charging cars. And I think that's going to change the dynamic of Tesla's yet again. Yeah. I don't think Tesla's long for this world. Like 15 years. You're crazy. I'm sorry. I love you, but you're just crazy. And I will end this by saying this because I know what you think. Like you think that Tesla's a bad build quality and people are going to – over time it will – The batteries are all going to die or explode and people are going to be pissed. That's true of all cars. People love Range Rovers. They shouldn't. Like a modern Range Rover mostly does not work. It looks pretty.

1:03:13They look amazing. But I like went to buy one or just like look at one because it's like Becky's dream car. And then like people are jumping out of bushes being like don't. Stay away. My dad was not one of them. KK has one. Yeah, he'd be like, not anymore. We did not buy a Range Rover. Good. I'm just saying you right now. But I'm just saying, people love cars. Like, they keep selling Range Rovers. They love them. That's Tesla's future. They keep selling Ford and shabby pickup trucks. Tesla has fans like that way longer than 15 years. Yeah. All right, we got to take a break. More lightning round to come.

1:03:46But this time, they're actually going to be bolts of lightning, not extended deliberations. We'll be right back.

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1:06:22All right, we're back. It has been a very philosophical sort of lightning round show. Let's go back to my feelings on Tesla's longevity. What is a car? All right, I've got a few telecom lightning round ones. A few? Just a couple. I'm going to try to bundle them together. So today, McKenna Kelly is in Washington, D.C. as we speak, watching the FCC vote to restore net neutrality, which is not done, but Biden finally fully staffed his FCC by the pure failure on Joe Biden's part to just not have a functioning FCC for most of his administration thus far. But he finally pulled it off. He's got all the people.

1:07:01They're going to go do it. A lot of people are going to tell you it didn't matter. We haven't had it this long. The telecom companies didn't do bad things. No one's throttled their data. They're lying to you. They're lying to you. They're lying to you for two reasons. One, there's a bunch of state net neutrality laws in the books in New York and California and all these other big populist places. And two, the telecom companies have done a bunch of dumb things and blown a lot of money and attempted to do bad things. They were just such horrible ideas. They blew up in their faces and resulted in massive layoffs across the industries that they covered.

1:07:38For example, a company called AT &T. I don't know if you. Never heard of them. They're just a little thing. You know, a funny thing about AT &T. I don't know if people know this. You can actually split it up into hundreds of little companies and it will slowly reform over time. It'll just blob back together. There it is again. And one of those companies will be HBO for 10 minutes. Yeah, it's amazing. Anyhow. It's like Mercury. Lightning round. But anyhow, AT &T bought Time Warner in order to zero rate data on its network and make you watch a grayscale Justice League. Because my data cap was the reason I was worried about streaming services.

1:08:18That tracks. It's a real thing. Anyhow, so net neutrality going back in the books. If you are the sort of person who is generally worried about censorship on the internet, I would say that free speech online, a set of keywords that usually implies people with slightly different politics than mine. But if you are worried about censorship on the internet, you should be worried about it at the pipe layer most of all because it is the least transparent, the least accountable, the least competitive part of the internet stack. You should say, okay, we should definitely not have any control over data here.

1:08:58I firmly believe this, that that is an inappropriate place for any kind of censorship or throttling or business model interference with information. So that's what we're doing again. McKenna is there. We're going to have a weird fight about it. Brendan Carr, classic bad faith FCC hucksters, like giving PowerPoint presentations about why everything's great with Internet Access in America. We're going to cover it again. Does it have like a little sponsored by AT &T at the bottom of the deck? It's a death star.

1:09:29Similarly, you might have noticed that I've paid a lot of attention to the end of the 5G era, as I've taken the calling it. I was like, Neel, I was looking towards 7G. What are you talking about? Yeah. Whenever I get one of the PR emails about talking about 6G innovations, I'm like, you dummies. I've been on 9G this whole time. Turn that frown upside down. Nokia is cutting 14 ,000 jobs. By the way, do you know Nokia still has 86 ,000 employees? They became an infrastructure provider. And there was a thought that Huawei would take over the world of infrastructure. And then we, like, basically banned Huawei.

1:10:04The Europeans basically banned Huawei from providing cellular infrastructure. So companies like Siemens and Nokia all invested heavily into 5G equipment. That's the stuff that's running right now. Nokia has now cut 14 ,000 jobs. The reason the operators have found it challenging to monetize their 5G investments. That's a quote. That's a quote. That's a quote. That's a quote from the CEO of Nokia. This is why we're cutting 14 ,000 jobs. The operators invested so heavily into 5G with no plan to make money. And now they're cutting back on their further investment because there's no money here. So we, Nokia, are cutting$14 ,000 jobs.

1:10:46Here's where you could put a bunch of 5G towers. Rural America. The backhaul. Sure. But I'm just saying like what are the promises of these networks is that you will bring broadband to more people more effectively. That is not done. We have lots of listeners, readers in rural America. Alex and I both care about this quite a bit. McKenna cares about it quite a bit. We pay a lot of attention to it. The broadband deployments. I don't care, just apparently. I don't care at all about rural broadband. I'm not interested. You're a city slicker, Pierce. City slicker. Urban cowboy, David Pierce. All right.

1:11:19Little John Travolta. What floor of a New York skyscraper are you guys on right now?

1:11:29anyhow i was saying is it it didn't happen they did the thing that they always do yeah they blew a bunch of money they made a bunch of promises they served urban areas and covered the highways of america and nowhere else i would argue internet's actually gotten worse in rural america Interesting. Like, especially phones. Used to, I could drive from one town to another to visit my mom, have phone the whole way. And now, every time I go down this little hill, I say, I'll call you back at the end of this hill. Every time. It's very consistent. That's true. If you stand on a street corner here in New York City under a streetlight, you can get like 10 gigs down.

1:12:09I just tell my mom, go to New York, stand under. Get to that street corner. Look, all I'm saying is the amount of nationalist rhetoric that we heard about 5G. Yep. We have to win the race. Otherwise, China will win the race. And then they'll be doing the robot surgery and you'll be, I don't know, working with a shovel for the rest of your life. Do you remember this? I remember it very clearly. It was last week. And I'm still on the hunt for 5G applications that require 5G. AT &T released a helmet. They did Gallaudet University. I think that's how you pronounced it. But they made a helmet for football players who are deaf and has displays in the visor so they can call plays.

1:12:50Very cool. Where's the football played? Like in rural America. That's true. I'm just like looking at this thing. I'm like this is not – you don't need 5G for this helmet. You just need Wi-Fi. Good Wi-Fi would have gotten you there, right? This is kind of the level that we're at with this technology. To this day, we're pretending that 5G is enabling applications. Well, and it's part of the reason stuff like the Nokia news is so disappointing is that we were promised that the reason 5G was going to win was because it was so deployable. You don't have to dig trenches in the same way. You can actually get this thing to people more easily, and they can use it using devices and infrastructure they already have.

1:13:32sounded good, and now to see everyone pulling back because they can't figure out how to immediately monetize this small speed increase that people like the three of us got from 5G means the people we're talking about who actually could have benefited from 5G being rolled out in their towns where digging trenches is hard work, not going to happen. That sucks. Yeah. The pivot to 6G is coming so hard. What will the surgery be? they're like they peeled a carrot it's gonna be amazing all right crans what's yours okay so wah wah netflix raised prices again which we knew was coming yeah we knew we knew it's happening um it's only for two of the plans this time one is is the basic plan it's gonna be 11.99 the other is the premium plan which gets you 4k and everything that's gonna be 22.99 oh that's right on the...

1:14:28See, I'm upset, but at the same time, I thought I was paying that already for that. So I'm like, this sucks, but... Alright, disclosures, I have an AT &T account. I have for some time. I'm a Netflix producer. We made an Netflix show. It's called The Future I. We can go watch on Netflix for any number of prices, apparently, including with ads. There is a little silver lining. We've done a little telecom dunking, and I've talked about net neutrality. Comcast, through its subsidiary NBCUniversal, it's an investor in Vox Media. I think that's it for now. We'll see what else we have to go into. Yeah.

1:15:00Comcast provides my internet, and it's very slow most of the time. There you go. We've gotten some notes that are like, you're not taking them seriously. Those are serious disclosures. Those are all real conflicts that you can evaluate. We want you to know. The only kind of like bright side of this is the basic plan. No, the ad-supported plan, the$6.99 plan. Used to you couldn't get offline downloads. So if you were going to be on a plane, sucks to be you. Do you get the ads of the offline downloads? I don't know. The idea of paying money to download someone else's ads is a lot. That seems fine to me.

1:15:33That doesn't bother me at all. And they'll get good at dynamic ads the way that podcasts work. There's a good chance if you're listening to this show, you've heard dynamically placed ads based on what you downloaded. If there's one thing that I've heard from our listeners is that our dynamic ads work great. Yeah, it's perfect. Nothing ever goes wrong with dynamic ad placement. But no, what's truly wild to me about this is So the thing you get for the premium price, which is$23 now, is you get 4K streaming, and I believe you get four at a time. So up to four people can be watching, which isn't really true because of the way that the password sharing stuff works.

1:16:10So I used to have the four screens account because it was feasible that four different people might be using our account at the same time. That's probably not realistic for most people anymore. So I think you're already probably overpaying. but that's also the only way to get 4K. So if that's a thing you care about, Netflix just knows it can charge you whatever you want. But you can now get the ad-supported version on six screens for less than the cost of the premium. Like, it's just so transparent that Netflix will charge you whatever it has to in order to get you to switch to ads. Like, that's just what it is going to be.

1:16:44They're going to price gouge you until you switch to ads. Yep. And the upper limit of that, God only knows. Like premium might cost$50 in a year because if there will be – it's like the people who still pay for AOL on discs. There will be some of those people and Netflix will gouge them for every penny they're worth. So I understand the dynamics of this pretty easily, right? We have a lot of people who ask us why you can't just pay us to turn off ads. And the answer is if you just look at the revenue drop that would cause, the price I would have to make you pay would be too high. especially in a market where like the basic thing that we provide which is tech news is readily available for free all the time like kids on tiktok just reading verge articles is a thing that i i can't price out of the market right i think netflix is discovering the same thing but the bigger issue is for me as a big media nerd is 4k the only way i can get 4k is to be price gouged and like Right, because they know that there's like perfect price elasticity there.

1:17:47If you want 4K Yep. If you're us Yeah. There's a 0 % chance I'm paying anyone anything for less than 4K. Yeah. The only reason I do it is for 4K. I don't have four TVs running Netflix You should. in my house all the time. I should. Get those data caps out. Just hit them. Use that Fios. And I guarantee you Netflix is going to spend the next three years testing that theory. of you. Like, the question is, will you cancel before you switch to HD? Yeah. That's the thing Netflix is trying to figure out. Yes. I will cancel before I switch to HD. I don't believe you and I don't think Netflix does either.

1:18:24But we're going to test that theory. They don't know what I know about websites on the internet. Sucks to be. We're just going to start writing headlines that are like, the 4K on HBO Max is free. Yeah. Like, just shaming them into competing. that's our function in journalism it's true, it's true David, take your Spotify victory lap mine's very quick and it's just because I'm very proud of myself I said on this show not terribly long ago that Spotify should stop mucking around with trying to be the TikTok for audio or whatever that means and just try to win at music because for all of the stuff going on in the world and all of the audio things out there we actually don't have a really great music app at this moment in time There are a lot of Apple Music nerds who are going to email me and tell me why I'm wrong, but you're wrong.

1:19:13Apple Music is not a good product either. They're all bad. And Spotify appears to be slowly taking my advice. It has sold merch through Spotify for a long time. If that's a thing you want to do, there are tools for that. But it is now rolling out a dedicated hub for artist merch on Spotify. This is a thing you're going to start to see a lot of. You're going to see merch. You're going to see ticket sales. You're going to see all kinds of ancillary. So you like this music. Here's how we can make money from you stuff coming to Spotify. But I just, I, Andrew Marino, our producer went back and found the TikTok that we published of me saying this.

1:19:50And I was exactly right. And I'm very proud of myself. And also good job, Spotify. Stop trying to pretend that all the other stuff you're doing is going to work. Exclusive podcasts were a stupid business. You wasted a lot of money. Merch is actually going to work. Tech companies are really bad at being media companies. The only tech company that's ever been good at being a media company, Netflix. You don't think they're a good media? I think there are a lot of people who argue Netflix was never really a tech company. That Netflix was always a media company masquerading as a tech company. It was never a tech company.

1:20:20And got valued like a tech company. I would agree, but it's also, it's a bad media company. It is not a very well-run media company because it can't put out bangers. It puts out like maybe one year. Yeah, but you're paying$23 a month for that, Alex. I know. It's because I'm watching Ugly Betty right now, and I don't have it on DVD. All right. Well, email us. Tell us if you will quit Netflix before you drop 4K. I'm actually really curious where the audience is on this. This is a self-selecting group. I think I already know the answer, but I would like a little data from the Virch House audience.

1:20:56Will you quit Netflix before you downgrade from the 4K plan? And tell me why. because I'm sort of desperate to know. I think I'm gone before I lose 4K. I don't believe that for one second. Yeah. I'm married to someone who watches a lot of comedy on Netflix who probably doesn't care. Kecock. This is going to be a whole conversation I have. Frasier's on Paranormal. We're watching like ad-supported SD comedy specials in our house before I drop this thing. All right, that's it. We're way over. Liam's spitting mad. He's not actually. He's smiling. He loves it. Everyone write Liam a nice note. A nice note.

1:21:30We'll see you later. lots of great stuff on the site this week there's a bunch of YouTube news actually incremental YouTube changes are really interesting including an AI feature where when people say like and subscribe the bell starts shaking which is just hilarious like a perfect creator economy moment Jen Toohey has a great piece on Ecobee and it's like ever expanding ambitions in the home she compares it to Nest the headline is it's becoming the company Nest wanted to be if you know anything about me and The Verge you know that But we started – our first big feature was on Nest. Like I wrote it with Tony Fidel, and I remember him telling me his ambitions for the company.

1:22:08It obviously failed in spectacular fashion because of Google. So I loved this piece about Ecobee and how they're building up their ecosystem. Very cool. All kinds of other great stuff on the site. And then we would be remiss to not note that there's a war happening in Israel and Gaza. We have a lot of coverage about the information space of that war on our site. There's a lot going on with misinformation, disinformation. I just need to take a break from it during the Vergecast. Many of our listeners have told us the same, but there's a lot of coverage on the site. We're taking that stuff seriously.

1:22:39Go look at that. Particularly what is going on in Europe with the Digital Services Act and the European government's being able to issue takedown requests of social networks is new, and it's going to have a lot of implications for a lot of things in the future. Okay, that's all on the site. That's it. That's Vergecast. Rock around.

1:23:01And that's it for The Vergecast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at 866-VERGE-111. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and Vox Media Podcast Network. Our show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. That's it. We'll see you next week.

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