Meta’s Quest 3 revealed and a WWDC preview

24:40Like everything Apple has built is basically just like different size screens on which you run apps. And this thing, which presumably it sounds like is going to be called XROS, which is an odd name, but there we go. The naming people on this thing have not done a great job. If it's really the Reality Pro and it runs XROS, like we blew it, y 'all. But anyway, this question of like, what happens when I put it on my face? And this is sort of true of all AR things. Like, what is it supposed to show me? How does it boot? Where does it go? What is the right answer here? You've used all these things.

25:15Is the meta home the best thing we've done so far? The big question to me is whether you have to sync it with something. Oh, interesting. Huge numbers of headsets right now, either there's no other option or it's the best option is you install a phone app. And the phone app handles stuff like logging into an account. And then it switches you over to the headset and you boot up and you see something like home. So I'm really curious what kind of dependencies it's going to have to other products and particularly other Apple products. And then, yeah, I mean, there's the option that's home. Like an app screen home is the most attractive thing to me.

25:53There are people who have tried to do these sort of skeuomorphic, you feel like you're in a real place, like your own little home. I feel like no one's quite pulled that off. But I don't know. Maybe Apple has something else. You're cool if it just boots into what looks like a really big iPad home screen. It's just like you're inside of your iPad. This is what I'm used to doing with the Quest, yeah, basically. I mean, technically, the Quest has a little home screen, but it's a row of icons to me. What would you want it to be otherwise? Like, a house? I don't know. This is why this is such an interesting question to me, right?

26:26is I think the thing I believe strongly is that if the best we can do is basically port iPad apps over so that they sort of appear in a window next to your face, that is failure and we have ruined it. I think there's a decent chance that's what it's going to be at first, but like God help us if that's the best we ever figure out how to do, because that's just Google Glass again. What was the HoloLens UI like? Because I remember for me, HoloLens always feels like the North Star for user interface in AR. It feels like they solved a lot of the problems and a lot of the issues. Somebody at Microsoft is like fist pumping aggressively hearing you say that.

27:05You guys did it. I mean, you didn't do it in that HoloLens never really left like development and being sold to the military, but you did it. You figured out like how to make this stuff work. But I genuinely can't remember what the startup situation was like. The HoloLens is a lot of like kind of floating elements in front of you in the world. It's like it just kind of it just like decorates your space with some stuff, which I think works more or less OK. I mean, that would make sense for something like this. I realize what the third option is. It's the fake watch. And I think that's what HoloLens ended up doing eventually, which is the you lift your wrist and contextually, because there's cameras and they can tell that your wrist is there.

27:42They open up a thing that looks like a little fancy display with icons. That's not that cool. I want that. I just think that's neat. Like, if I'm going to be wearing it on my head, I want something different than what if I strapped a giant iPad to my face. I just feel like that's what it's going to be. That's what a lot of the reports have said. Yeah. And to some extent, that's fine for the first one, right? Like, it's a nice piece of hardware. It will run apps. It'll do the pass-through video. You'll be able to, like, throw a big Netflix screen up here. Like, I was thinking this morning about the thing Mark Zuckerberg said at, I think it was back when it was called Facebook Connect a bunch of years ago, about like the North Star of this is you can just project a television onto your wall and you just have like a virtual TV that sits there.

28:25I kind of think that is the vibe that we're gonna get from the first run of Apple's headset that it's just like, I just wanna watch Netflix and just like, Netflix. So question for this is how do you end up, how do you watch Netflix with like your roommate or your kid? Because you're both watching different Netflixes. Do you have a way to sync them up? Like, I think that Apple has to be just normal enough to recognize that people are maybe going to want to watch things with other people and that they're going to want to come up with a situation that will let them do this. You buy a headset precisely so you never have to speak to your children again.

28:59Like, that's that's just what it is. They can't admit that. No, but they can't because a friend a friend of mine this morning sent me a photo. She's like babysitting her two nephews and she's got two sons. She sends me a picture and it's all four boys in her kitchen, all on their own iPads, all with their own headphones in, all doing their own thing. And I was like, that is totally foreign to me. Like, one, nothing like that before breakfast. But two, like, usually the TV would be on and we'd all be watching Arthur or whatever cartoon was on or news if my mom vetoed us. And they don't do that as often anymore, right?

29:32Like, a lot of people don't do that. They go and they watch their own things. Everybody sits down for family time and we're physically in the same room as the family time. I don't want to watch The Little Mermaid movie. You watch that and I'm going to go watch Succession with my headphones on. Okay, maybe I should be more clear in that I don't know about kids. I do definitely watch Netflix with my husband. Okay. This isn't for you. Yeah, a lot of people have people that they love that they want to share experiences with. We're done with that. We've moved beyond it. People had a good long run. But even if we're done with it, have you ever watched like a tech company keynote?

30:08They posit all kinds of social uses for things that make me feel like some kind of horrible shut in. Everything they announce is like, so, you know, when you have your 30 friends over for a potluck, like they have to find some way to make that play. Yeah. Yeah. Or like when they when they do the iPad AR stuff and they're like, you know how you and your friends gather around a table and play Dungeons and Dragons through your iPads? It's like, yes, me and my friends, we do that for sure. All the time. 100 % of the time. Only thing we do. Yeah, that is fair. I guess that plays into what they're going to do with FaceTime, too, right?

30:40It's that same situation of how do we make this social without being weird and creepy. And hopefully Apple figured that out. Right, guys? we'll see all right we're we need to switch gears and take a break but before we go you each have to give me one prediction about something that's going to happen with the headset on monday ideally something that has not been reported or talked about i'll go first while you guys think i think there are going to be colors i think this thing is going to come in like a wide maybe not that wide but in a variety of like cool interesting colors there might be a purple like it's going to be very important to apple that this thing is like nice to look at and wear and so they're going to do a lot of the same stuff they did with the watch and try to make a case that this is like a lovely fashion object and it won't work but they're gonna try that's that's my theory adi what's yours i think my theory is very similar to yours but which is that they will have faces the way that they have for apple watch but it will literally be on your face and that will be what the front screen is for and if you are out in full ar mode then it will be your face and maybe you can i don't know wear funny glasses otherwise it's off to signal that you are dead to the world but you can put something that looks really cool on it.

31:51That's a good idea. Alex, what do you got? The controller will be the iPhone. I think somebody already reported this, but I still think it's true. Like you're going to hold it in your hand? Yeah. You will play Beat Saber with your iPhone, which means we'll probably at some point get a little MagSafe strap for your iPhone. I'm going to have my iPad in one hand, my iPhone in the other, and I'm just going to be crushing Beat Saber. It's going to be unbelievable. Flinging things into the TV at all times. Can't wait to like punch a wall with my phone. It's going to be great. All right. We need to take a break.

32:22Addy, thank you. I suspect we will be regrouping a week from now to talk about all this stuff and all the things we got wrong. But thank you. And we'll see you then. And we will be right back. Thank you.

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35:02All right, we're back. Dan Siefert's here. Hi, Dan. Hello. We have a lot to talk about. I went through and tried to make a list of all of the rumors and reporting that there have been for WWDC, and it's a lot. Do you guys want to do software first or Macs first? Because those feel like kind of the two big categories here. Those are the two big categories? That's what's been rumored for WWDC? Well, we already talked about the big category. You're coming in for the scraps here, Dan. I hate to break that one to you. But let's do Macs first, because I think this is not normally a super hardware-y event.

35:35Normally, we'll get the occasional thing. We got an M2 MacBook Air last year. That's where they announce the HomePod. Yeah. Like I said, normally not a hardware event. I will just say nothing would make me happier than if Apple spent two hours telling us about a headset and then Tim Cook is like, and also a HomePod, and then just leaves. That's what the HomePod deserves, as far as I'm concerned. Fingers crossed. But there are a bunch of slightly conflicting rumors about what's coming. High-end Macs, low-end Macs. Dan, do you have a good grasp on the situation here? I think we're in a weird position this year because normally by June, Apple has already announced new Macs.

36:14Oh, that's true. There's usually that March event, right? Right. We didn't have a spring event. We had this weird announcement in January for the M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, which were in the Mac Mini and then new MacBook Pros. Then we didn't have anything happen in the spring. And here we are in June, it's WWDC. And the rumors have been for a long time that Apple has been working on a 15-inch MacBook Air, that it also has been working on an M3 chip because the M2 chip is now a year old. And now, most recently, the rumors are that an updated Mac Studio with M2 Max and M2 Ultra chips, Ultra being the newest one that hasn't yet been announced, may be announced as well.

36:56What's weirdly missing from all this is a Mac Pro. Yeah, which, let's see, it's been a year and change since they said that's for another day about the Mac Pro? I think they're kind of screwed on the Mac Pro. Why? Because they want to announce it with the fanciest processors, right? But the fanciest processors always come second. They always announce the M2, then the M2 Max, the M1, the M1 Max. And they took a long time to get these M2 Max Pro versions out, right? The M2 was last WWDC, it debuted with the MacBook Air, and then it was until January that we got the M2 Pro and M2 Max, and now we're here a year later expecting possibly to get an M2 Ultra.

37:38So it is taking them a long time to get these iterations of the M2 base chip out. And the way that the pace of their development goes is the M3 is, if you read the tea leaves and believe the rumors, right around the corner. So they set themselves up because now if they release the M2 Ultra with a Mac Pro, okay, cool. Oh, now you're just going to announce the M3 in six months? Why should I get it? And then also, oh, you're going to announce it first with the Studio, which in many respects is kind of the Pro. It's very, very good. I've got one. I podcast on it right now. It's wonderful. There's stuff that professionals certainly need, right?

38:17Better in-outs, stuff like that. Expandability, yep. but is that going to be enough? Yeah, I don't know. Like if they come out with an M2 Ultra next week and stick it in a refreshed Mac Studio, it always opened question of like, what is there for the Mac Pro to have, right? Or like, is there like what's above Ultra, right? And I think that's what you're driving at, right, Alex? And I think the one thing about the Mac Pro that you kind of alluded to that is different from the Mac Studio is expandability. And nobody has really even like, None of the rumors, none of the reporting has really alluded to how Apple might address that in the M architecture world, where RAM is basically all on the same die.

39:02They don't support third-party GPUs, so you're not sticking an AMD GPU in it. There aren't expansion cards for audio drivers or whatever professionals stick in a Mac Pro. None of that exists, and there hasn't been any reporting around it, so it's very unclear. The solution is just Thunderbolt, right? Like the last time they did the Mac Pro, there was some pretty cool stuff there, even if it was super expensive and the majority of people didn't have any use for it. It was still cool. You could run a lot of, I believe you could run a lot of GPUs at like very high bandwidth. You could run GPUs. They had accelerator cards.

39:36You could add more Thunderbolt ports. So like you could expand it a lot. And in this case, it's like, well, their solution right now for expandability is Thunderbolt. And you don't need a tower for that because Thunderbolt's just a little USB-C style plug. So where do you go? And if you don't need the GPUs and if this other stuff, they're so reluctant to work with other people. The whole point of expandability is that you can work with other products. You don't have to rely entirely on one company. And that's kind of the antithesis of what Apple's computer philosophy is at this point. So how does that work?

40:15and I think this is a can they're going to kick down the road for a very long time until they then invite a bunch of Apple bloggers to show off and be like, we really care about the pro community and look at this new one that nobody else can see yet. It'll come out in six years. Yeah, you basically only have to do that once every five years, it seems, and people will get on board. But I think you're exactly right because to me, the thing about the pro was always is that they could get away with it because the Pro would just continue being a very good computer for a very long time, in part because it was expandable.

40:48Well, you know, they had that whole 2013 model. Well, sure. I love the trash can. Except without it ruined it on purpose for some reason. But like the towers lasted a long time because you could add stuff, they were expandable. You could like, as long as the processor was enough, you could add everything else that you needed. And I believe that like, even for the 2019 model, which is the most recent one that has the cheese grater front end and stuff like that. The M series chips now are probably outpacing the Intel Xeons that are in there. But because of that expandability, if you needed a lot of GPU grunt, you can still beat the best M2 max chip on GPU horsepower in a Mac Pro by just sticking more cards in there and running them together and things like that.

41:35And so, like, it has still got an edge over it, even though the processor is probably not as good. It certainly is using more power off the wall and all those things. The RAM's not as fast, whatever it might be. But for those very specific use cases, yeah, to your point, David, like, it's still relevant and fast and powerful. Have we heard anything from Apple, from rumor sites, about, like, modularity in the processors for the M series? Because of the way, my understanding at least, because of the way the end processors are more than just... They're like soldered on. Yeah, it's not just the processor, right?

42:09It's the whole system. And like unified memory is really kind of like the thing that nobody knows how Apple is going to address for something like a Mac Pro where you could have terabytes of RAM. What if the Mac Pro ends up being like, you just buy additional Mac Studio boards and just plug in board after board? Then they make a ton of money, but also theoretically that makes a really super fast. Yeah, I mean, that would be very cool. That would be the ultimate dream of modularity. $20 ,000 base model price. I have no idea what kind of interface would allow for that kind of bandwidth. They'd have to build it, right?

42:50Right. They'd have to do it all themselves. So that's what they did with the previous Ultra, the M1 Ultra that's in the current Mac Studio. It is two M1 Mac chips with a special interconnect between them talking to them. That is all on the board level, though. That is not a modular thing that you can pull apart. So it would be an interesting thing. But again, I think what everyone here is saying is that it's kind of a little bit of a pipe dream wish casting for the Mac Pro. Because there just hasn't been any evidence in terms of what they're going to do with it. The only thing we have to work on is John Ternus saying a year ago that the Mac Pro is a story for another day.

43:27Well, it also makes me wonder if part of what Apple is stalling for here is to own even more of the ecosystem. Like, I don't know that Apple wants to be a company that like, you know, sells RAM on its own separately. But like, I mean, it would love to mark it up. It sure would. Yeah. But like, does Apple want to be a GPU company that starts to put some of that stuff in? like today is the ultimate goal here to give you that extensibility and modularity but it's all apple products all the way down that to me feels like at least as far as like apple considers itself as a company kind of the most on-brand path forward that's a hell of a lot of work and involves getting into a lot of businesses apple has not traditionally been in but like they got a big team with a lot of track record building really great chips now like i would not be shocked if they're like here are all these extra pieces but we sell all of them and they all cost eight thousand dollars i i just wonder if this delay with the mac pro just kind of speaks to how small of a business it actually is for apple it's clear that like the m series chips are not either apple's not able to produce them as fast as it wants to or develop them as fast as it wants to and so it's putting all of the the weight of its development stuff into the computers that people are actually buying like it's putting it puts the m2 first into macbook air it's the most popular laptop in the world.

44:49The M3 is probably going to show up in a MacBook Air. Again, the most popular laptop in the world. And then it will trickle down the line. It'll get to the MacBook Pros, which are the next line. And then it will make it to the studio. And then if there's enough left in the supply chain, maybe one day for those four people that want a Mac Pro. Well, I mean, that's what Intel and AMD do, right? Their releases are typically like the, I think it's usually the desktop gaming GPUs are announced first. And that's because that's where a really big market for them as. And they've switched this around sometimes.

45:22They do do their super low energy processors first because laptops and they want to sell a lot of laptops. But they do think a lot about that market and like, where's our biggest market? Let's focus there first. So I don't think it was ever confusing that Apple was like, yeah, we're going to do our cheapest, fastest, easiest produced thing in our cheapest, most popular device. Sure. It's just we are now about to be on the cusp of a third generation of these chips and still nothing at that Mac Pro level. So I just wonder, like you said, Alex, is it just going to keep getting kicked down the road?

45:58Because the priorities are always going to go towards making sure they are satisfying demand for the things that the vast majority of people are buying. We will see a second generation of the mixed reality headset before we see a Mac Pro. I am happy to put money on that right now. Oof. There are a bunch of video editors who just got real sad listening to that. I'm sorry, guys. I'm so sorry. But I do think the other part of this, and then we should get back to the stuff that's actually real and going to launch. Sorry, Mac Pro. The studio, at least from what I've heard anecdotally, for most people was a pretty clean replacement and in many cases improvement on the Mac Pro.

46:39It's stupid powerful. It's much smaller. It's much easier to like run and manage. It's a lot cheaper. And it's like the studio plus studio display thing seems to have made a lot of really high end needy Apple users really, really happy. And it's fast. I remember talking with Chris Person, who's been on the show before, front of the verge, and he's a video editor. And I was like, yeah, I got a Mac studio. And I was kind of like, uh, because I'm talking to you and you're a video editor and you know what you're talking about. So you probably think this is dumb. And he's like, no, I just got one. It's the most incredible thing in the world.

47:10I can do everything so much faster than I could do with any home built computer. This has changed my entire workflow. It's, it's really is the hype cannot even begin to compare. And I was like, well, you're not a dude prone to hyperbole. And that sounded really hyperbolic. So holy crap. And that's what I've heard over and over and over again from other people too. It's just like, no, the thing just flies and it does what they need so well. And yeah, you've got Thunderbolt for when you need that grunt work, I got to just move files and stuff like that. I will say if they are going to bump the chips on the studio, which it seems like by all accounts, the rumors are pointing towards, there's no real design changes or anything like that.

47:53It will be a little disappointing if they don't address some of the complaints been with the studio. There's been a lot of user complaints about the fan noise. Alex, I don't know if that's been an issue for you, but a lot of very particular people don't like it. I'm not doing a bunch of grunt work. Wait, they don't like that there's too much of it or they don't like the specific sound of the fan? Apparently, it sits at a low RPM of like 2000 RPM constantly. It does not shut off. And so that's really weird for the M-Series MacBook Pros, which almost never turn their fans on. The Max Studio constantly has its fan on.

48:25And some people in quiet environments, maybe they're particular about the sound of it or whatever, don't like it. Hold on. Hold on. No, nothing. Alex's hearing is too damaged is what we're learning. And then I think things like the HDMI port, if I'm not mistaken, is 2.0 instead of 2.1. Stuff like that where they could upgrade it and make it better. But yeah, it seems like what you were saying, Alex, is there really isn't much to do to the Max Studio to make it better other than bring it up to the next generation, make it even more powerful than it already is. Give me two HDMI ports. No, okay. Because I'm tired of having to use a weird Thunderbolt adapter.

49:03If I know one thing about Apple, it's that giving you more ports is not what Apple is interested in. They did put a lot on the studio, to be fair. That is true. It's got an SD card slot. Yeah, listen, we'll take what we can get. But I think the 15-inch Air, I think to me, is fascinating. Because I think back to last year, and the M2 Air comes out, They do kind of a gentle redesign of it that I still don't love. I still think the wedge is one of the greatest. I think it was a big redesign. I mean, that was a pretty significant redesign. Yes, in as much as you can redesign a 13-inch laptop that still looks like a 13-inch laptop.

49:36You know what I mean? It's like we're not sort of reinventing the wheel here. But it did change, what, like an 11-year-old idea about how the Air works. So I'll give you that. It went from a wedge to a square. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But the story of the M2, but really the story of that laptop and what you found when you reviewed it, Dan, is that the M2 was not such a meaningful upgrade over the M1 as to make it like a must buy. And I think I came out of that basically telling everybody over the last 12 months to buy an M1 MacBook Air because I like the shape of it better. It had a bigger battery.

50:10So the M2 Air came with a lot of quality of life improvements. Bigger screen, better speakers, you know, that had MagSafe charging, other things that like better camera, things that like you used or experienced interact with daily and make it better. But in terms of performance, you're right, David. It was like a modest bump in performance. And depending on which spec level you got, there was the whole controversy around the SSD being slower and things like that. Probably for most people buying a base level MacBook Air, they would never notice and not really matter. but you can get a lot of that battery life and performance out of the M1.

50:43And, you know, we've seen over the past year or so, those are constantly going for like$800 brand new, which is a smoking deal. And I agree, I would totally recommend if someone is like, I want a good Mac for the least amount of money, then like absolutely M1 Aero all the way. But it wasn't that huge generational leap that we got going from Intel to the M1 chip at all. And I don't think we are ever really going to see that again unless they go to a different architecture beyond, right? Like that was the big jump. And then everything else is going to be iterative. But we could see a really big battery life jump with a 15-inch MacBook Air.

51:16So that's what I was going to say is I think the smart thing that Apple is doing this year is actually making a change that is going to feel like a bigger change to people because it's just going to have more space for battery. I assume the battery life on this thing is going to be ridiculous. Yeah. I mean, I don't know anyone who's complaining about the M1 or M2 battery life. No, it still feels like magic. Honestly, the thing where I can just sit on a plane all the way across the country and my battery is still at like 65 percent is just like it's I'm two years into having this computer and it still feels like magic.

51:46How long? I want it to be more absurd than that, though. I want you to be able to go like, oh, yeah, I went three days without looking for my charger because I have a Mac, a 15 inch. I mean, it might happen. Like if that doesn't happen, that I'll be disappointed. I think that the 15-inch MacBook Air will be transformative, but not because of the battery, but just because it has a bigger screen. And people love bigger screens. And they will always go for bigger screens. And then so, like, if you look at Apple's laptops for, I don't know, ever, the 13-inch one was the accessible one. And then if you wanted any bigger screen, you are spending$2 ,000 plus, many times$1 ,000 more.

52:20If you want to go from a 13.5-inch M2 MacBook Air to a 16-inch MacBook Pro is$1 ,000 jump. And for most people, the rest of that difference is all stuff you don't care about. Exactly. Everything else is stuff you don't care about. So there's a way that Apple can screw this up, and they screwed it up with the iPhone 14 Plus by pricing a 15-inch MacBook Air too close to$2 ,000. Because if you think about, like, the 13-inch MacBook Air starts at$1 ,200 now. I think if they price the 15-inch model in that$1 ,500 range, I think it'll be gangbusters and people will go nuts for it. If they're pricing it at$1 ,800 to$2 ,000, it's the iPhone 14 Plus all over again, where it is just too close to the price of the Pro models, and people will just ignore it and either go cheap because they're on a budget or go up because they want something better.

53:08And so, like, Apple could screw this up. I'm not, like, I think that they do have the potential to do a really awesome job with it, but, like, they screwed it up with the 14 Plus. It's possible they could do it here. Does it need to be cheaper than the MacBook Pro? Yes. Either size? Yes. So it needs to be cheaper than the 13-inch. Well, so like the 13-inch MacBook Pro is that weird curveball that ruins everyone's predictions and models. I don't think it has to be cheaper than that. I think it has to be cheaper than the 14-inch MacBook Pro. Okay. But it has to be significantly cheaper than the 14-inch MacBook Pro, which a 14-inch MacBook Pro list price starts at$2 ,000.

53:41You can find them all over the place for$1 ,800. And that will offer more power because it's going to be an M2 Pro chip. It's going to have that mini-LED screen. It's going to have ports and stuff like that. There's going to be a lot of reasons for people to buy that one instead of a 15-inch MacBook Air. But if all they want is a bigger screen and really a MacBook Air is the computer for them, then a 15-inch MacBook Air priced correctly would be like gangbusters. Like if you look at what people buy Windows laptops. So what you want to happen is a 15-inch MacBook Air priced at like$1 ,500, 16 gigabytes of RAM standard.

54:17I don't even think they need to do that. They won't. I mean, it's Apple. They're not going to do it. They're going to do 8 gigs of RAM and 256 gigs of storage at$1 ,500. And you know what? It's going to be really popular if they do it at$1 ,500. If they do it at$17,$18,$19,$2 ,000, like too much. If you do a$1 ,700 device with 8 gigabytes of RAM, I think you'll lose everybody. Oh, no. I completely disagree. Well, that's true. But not because of the RAM. I think that's purely a price thing. I think 8 gigs of RAM is more than enough for most people. it's just like if you can afford 16 get 16 at all times yeah get as much as you possibly can afford but but yeah i i totally agree like if they can get this thing at like 13.99 or 14.99 it's going to be a monster success but then anything more than that and you have to do this thing that you have to do way too often with apple now like the ipad is the worst offender of this right where it's like everything you do is like well for a hundred dollars i could just get this one and then suddenly you're buying the 12.9 inch ipad pro well they they put that 64 gig base for jane and now i need to jump 150 bucks and like oh i wanted cellular yeah i just wanted an ipad mini it's like optioning a luxury car just keeps going up that's exactly right which to be clear apple is doing extremely on purpose and is very good at but uh but yeah i agree i think the the iphone 14 plus is very much like the problem child of this strategy and it'll be interesting to see if Apple gets away with it.

55:41Yeah. Let's talk about software. So there's a lot of rumors out there. iOS 17 seems like it's going to be the most interesting one just because it usually is. It seems like, I don't know what y 'all's feeling has been so far, but it seems like because the headset is such a big deal and because we're going to get these devices, there's going to be kind of less wacky, funky new software stuff than usual. Like a lot of the reporting has been that it's some sort of quality of life improvements, a couple of new apps that we can talk about. But there's some big stuff coming next year because of regulatory stuff with, you know, side loading and app stores and all that stuff.

56:15But that might get pushed off to next year. But the biggest things I've seen so far this year are things like, well, actually here, I made a list of all the things that are reported to come becoming an iOS 17. Do you want to hear the list? Yeah, let's hear it. I want it. Here's the list. Go. Improvements to Control Center, whatever that means. Improvements to the wallet app, which thank God. And also location services, which is an interesting one. And Apple's done a bunch of interesting things with like Find My and the AirTag stuff and all that. So there's apparently more coming in that realm.

56:45More interactive widgets so that you can actually like do something on a widget without just tapping it to open the app. More and better stuff to do in the Dynamic Island. Improvements to the always on display. AirPlay upgrades. So you could, in theory, send stuff from your phone to a TV or device, even if you don't own it, which I think would be very cool. Mark Gurman at Bloomberg, who we should say is basically responsible for the vast majority of the good reporting about what's going on at Apple in the world. So good job, Mark. What he said is basically Apple has been talking to like hotels about how to enable airplay so that I can send stuff from my phone to my hotel TV, which would be awesome.

57:21You don't travel with an Apple TV in your suitcase? I travel with a Roku for exactly this reason, and I hate it the most. And I would love to not have to do that anymore. It's not going to work, though. The biggest thing, or at least what I think is the biggest thing, is that Apple's apparently working on a way so that when you dock your phone, when it's off and horizontal, so it's like put down in landscape mode, it'll turn into essentially a smart display. It'll be sort of the always-on display. It'll show information. I don't know what else. Photos, whatever. And that it's a precursor to what Apple wants to do with smart home displays.

57:52But it's basically what we've seen with the Pixel tablet and the Echo devices and the Nest stuff. It's a sort of ambient display that just shows you information. Perfect. I love that. Which I think it makes a lot more sense on an iPad, but sure. They're going to do it on the iPhone first. Can we go back to the hotel thing, though? Because that means that the hotel Wi-Fi has to not suck. And I can't really see Hilton and Marriott and everybody being like, oh, man, we have to go finally make this not be garbage. Just the hottest garbage on the planet. But what if it could make a direct Wi-Fi ad hoc connection from your device?

58:26Which I would assume that that's where it'll actually land. Do you think Hilton and Marriott are going to pay? You know what I think Hilton and Marriott are going to do? They're going to fill their rooms with those tele-TVs because they can get them for free. And then you're going to have to look at ads the whole time. You already have to do that. I have to tell you, turn on the TV in a hotel. And it's like, do you want to hear all about our great restaurant options? Guys, it's okay. I bring my tele-TV with me to hotels. So it's no problem. Just under your arm. Yeah, it's fine. but again like the sum of all of that stuff is like fine right it's like new things but nothing in there feels like a sort of big explosive new idea about ios and maybe that's just where we are yeah i mean i think that's like what i was 17 and it's like you know they're going to talk about ios they have to talk about ios because it is like they're bread and butter now it is the majority of the company.

59:19And at the same time, they have the Facebook problem where they can't change too much because they will disrupt however many billions of existing users. And we're ironically 10 years out from iOS 7 when they really last blew it all up. And then that didn't go so well. Well, they also, a couple of years ago, famously slowed down on the stuff they rolled out for each of these updates because they were cramming so much stuff in that it was a big, buggy garbage mess. And so they're like, oh, maybe that's a bad tact. So I think we're still seeing that on all of these products. It's like, sometimes we're going to do really cool stuff.

59:56And sometimes we're not because it needs to work. And you can see where Apple's kind of weird energy goes instead, like because they can't blow up iOS because it would make a lot of people incredibly angry. Instead, they're out here being like, what if we just took over all the software in your car? And apparently there's going to be some more CarPlay stuff coming this year that presumably automakers will not be interested in because they've spent the last year being not interested in what Apple did last year. We're going to make Neelai review whatever it is. Review the slideshow because that's all it ever ends up being.

1:00:29Yeah, Neelai, look at this picture. Tell us what you think. Yeah, but I think to me the smart display thing could be cool. There's apparently going to be a journaling app that I think could be nifty. There's going to do some stuff with the health app. But I don't know, Dan, is there anything in these rumors that excites you about what's coming in iOS? Yeah, you know, it'd be nice for them to do more with the Dynamic Island. The rumors, the future rumors for the rest of the year are that the Dynamic Island will be on the entire line of iPhones in the fall. So if they are, you know, bringing more features to it, they really haven't done too much with it since it came out on the 14 Pro.

1:01:04There's room to grow there. So like it'd be interesting to see how they do that there. I like the idea of the ambient lock screen display, but like I said, I want that on an iPad more than I want it on my phone. It's weird in general that the always-on display stuff has not come to the iPad. It's such a natural thing for it. Well, yeah, but if you have it charged, I would assume this is only going to work if it's charging, right? Like if it's on a MagSafe dock or whatever and you've got it rotated horizontally. But it's ugly on a dock because you have to do it horizontally and then the charger's sticking out the butt.

1:01:35Well, I mean, on an iPhone, you could put it on a MagSafe puck and turn it horizontally and there's nothing sticking out the side of it, right? Exactly. But you can't do that on an iPad. That's what I'm saying. That's why it's not on the iPad is because the iPad will be aesthetically ugly. Listen, listen, Apple, if that's your reason, I urge you to take a look at the magic mouse and how that thing charges. And you have lost all leg to stand on about how things look when they are plugged in. Different teams, different teams. That was hardware. This is software. what's interesting to me about this software story at least so far from the rumors is uh we haven't talked about watch os i think we are expecting big changes to watch os which are long overdue but as you mentioned earlier david there's not a lot rumored coming for mac os and there's not a lot rumored coming for ipad os yeah we've heard almost nothing mac ipad and tv os there's been almost no reporting at all so far tv os could be so much better yeah the fact that they haven't done any attempt to make live non-apple tv plus uh content readily available like you see on android and some of the other products like alex if you're about to go on a fast tv rant we're just ending the podcast the podcast is over it's just i can dan did you see how david clocked me as soon as you said the word live tv i was like oh no we have to he's like oh here it's coming alex is trying to fast move over here let's just start the ads coming in here but wait dan dan we cut you off?

1:03:00What were you saying? Well, yeah. So, you know, the iPad, I think there's a lot of work that can be done. Obviously, stage manager is still a mess. They kind of biffed it last year with their launches. And it still doesn't have features that the iPhone has. Like we talked about always on display is not there. Other like widget-y features, stuff like that still aren't on the iPad. But it doesn't seem like it will get the new apps, right? So this journaling app will be available on all three platforms. And, you know, maybe a health app will be on the iPad, which would be a nice addition because it's weirdly not there now.

1:03:29But beyond that, there hasn't been any rumors or any reporting in terms of them rethinking stage manager or coming out with new ideas or software for the iPad, which is a little bit of a bummer. And then, like you were saying, the Mac, what are they going to call it is the big question. Right. Yeah. Like what we joke is Craig Federighi going to make is now the most interesting thing about the Mac every year. So excited. But watch OS X, rumored to be a big, pretty big redesign. maybe the biggest redesign since the watch came out. Yeah, I haven't read as much about the watch. What's the theory about what's coming with the watch?

1:04:00So the big theory that has been rumored is that we are getting a take on widgets for the watch. Like the watch has complications now, but they're pretty static. They don't update very often, things like that. So the idea is that there will be new widget interfaces that update more frequently or more customizable, which would be great. Maybe a rethinking of the honeycomb, whatever they call that, the app launcher thing, which is kind of a disaster and always has been. A refresh of the user interface of the watch, which we haven't seen. It's basically been the same thing since 2015 with really minor iterations since then.

1:04:35So it's long overdue for it. It's a little interesting for them to do it this year if they are launching a new platform that's going to get all the attention, but whatever, if it's happening, I'll take it. So is it kind of like there's that Siri face that is just kind of a scrollable set of things? Is it kind of a play on that that we might be getting? It could be, but I think that if that would work a lot better as a like module on a different watch face and like so like a module that like updates based on context and things like that. So right now, if you mess around with focus modes on your iPhone, you can tell it when I'm changing focus modes to change my watch face to whatever I said, just like you can change your wallpaper on your your iPhone, your home screen.

1:05:15what if you took it a little bit further and like used a little bit more context with where you are what you're doing and things like that and the watch can be a little bit more adaptive that would be nice it'd be cool it's kind of probably a nerdy level thing because you're gonna have to like tweak it and tinker with it and stuff like that but i'm into it one thing i've heard i've been talking to a bunch of developers this week about just like what they want from apple and for the most part it's pretty straightforward like i've had a bunch of people say we want swift ui to be better so we can better build cross-platform apps but the number of people who have brought up the watch to me has been really interesting because on the one hand the watch is kind of better and more mature than ever but also to your point it is the same damn thing it has been since 2015 and especially now that we have the ultra and these things have more performance and they have more battery more screen than ever developers are just like give us more to do like they're so hamstrung the ultra has this huge screen and it uses the exact same interface as the rest of the watches so like it doesn't even take advantage of the fact that it's got this big screen now Right.

1:06:12And Apple has always really aggressively limited the stuff you can do on those devices because it's so worried about battery life and performance. But now as those become less of a worry, there are a lot of people who are like, Apple, like, loosen the reins a bit. Let us do more stuff on the watch. And I'm hopeful that that's going to be one of the things that starts to happen because the Ultra in particular is so much more powerful than it is allowed to be by the way watchOS works right now. It's crazy. Yeah. Let us do something with that button. Yeah. It's got an extra button. You can barely do anything with it.

1:06:41It's exactly right. Anything else? Any other rumors? We should take a break here in a sec. But have I missed anything? What else are we expecting? Alex, do you want to talk about Fast TV? I feel bad that I cut you off talking about Fast TV. No, I'm fine. I'm fine. They're not going to do anything with it. And so why even get my hopes up? I wonder how much of these things are going to be in the keynote and how much is just going to be relegated to developer sessions or press releases or things like that. I mean, that's what they've done with tvOS the last couple of years. Yeah, they don't even mention it on stage.

1:07:11poor tv os the like bento box slides they show at the end of everything are going to be i suspect like particularly full of stuff this year yeah yeah that they didn't they didn't mention because they've got to spend all this time on a new platform and advice and uh i i expect this to be like a two-hour keynote and and even then how are they gonna touch everything yeah dan you neil and i are gonna be there so everyone please start praying for us now it's gonna be a long long long day pray for our bladders yeah have fun all right we need to take one more break and then we're going to come back and do a lightning round and then get out of here.

1:07:43We'll be right back.

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1:10:15We're back. I just looked at what Alex picked for the lightning round, and I just want to apologize to everybody in advance. Alex, you don't get to go first. Dan, you go first. What's your lightning round pick? So my lightning round pick is the Amazon Echo Pop, which Jen reviewed this week. It is Amazon's cheapest Echo speaker now. It's 40 bucks. It comes in pretty colors. It's very cool. And it also tries to upsell you on alarm sounds when you say set an alarm. It is the most bonkers thing ever. And it's just like, it blows my mind. I have so many questions. So if you are familiar with Alexa and you've used Echoes, you've probably gotten used to Alexa saying to you, by the way, do you want to do this, this, this, and this?

1:10:58Every single time you ask it a command. And no, you don't. You never do. You never, ever do. You just want it to turn the lights off. Jen asked it to set an alarm while she was testing this. And it said, by the way, do you want to buy a louder alarm sound after setting an alarm? And I just was like, the user experience of that is just so mind-blowingly awful and like cynical that I just like, I couldn't believe it. That's really like down the middle of like the sci-fi dystopias about all of this stuff is it's just like you watch Blade Runner and it's like, what if everything was just ads? And it's like, that's the, everybody watched these movies and was like, oh, what a good product idea.

1:11:37And it's like, no, you missed the whole point of all of that. Yeah, I mean, this is why it's$40, right? Yeah. See, the thing about Amazon and I, is that like, there are times when I don't mind that shtick, like the special offers thing on the Kindle, where it's like, when you turn it off, it'll show you ads for things you should buy. I actually don't mind that at all. And that's fine. But things like this are just gross and hostile and should not be allowed in a product. Because of the voice assistant is actively trying to engage you, it's what makes it worse. With the Kindle, it's like you're turning it off, you put it down, you walk away, you don't look at it again.

1:12:13So you don't even have to interact with it. The voice assistant calls to you and speaks to you and continues speaking to you, and you just want to go off and do something else. Or you want to go to bed because you set an alarm to wake up at six in the morning. It's just so bad. And it's like, is the next step of this that it's like, okay, for free, I'll wake you up somewhere between 5.30 and 7. But if you pay me$9 a month, I'll wake you up on time. Like, are we actually far away from it? Yeah, precise alarm is an in-app purchase. You only get fuzzy alarms. It's cable company, right? Like, it's like when you call your cable company to cancel your cable.

1:12:48And they're like, but what if for$100 more, we give you Showtime and Cinemax? And you're like, that's not what I... No, just do what I ask. Yeah. Like sometimes I just want you to do the thing. Can I talk about my pick? Yes, fine. You go second. That way I can go last and we can cut you off when this gets horrible. Again, I'm sorry to everyone in advance for what's about to happen on the Vergecast. Alex, what do you got? Okay. So there was a company a few years ago that was trying to like make video games more immersive. And their idea was like, what if we put speakers in the seats? What if we surrounded you with speakers and stuff?

1:13:27So you would really feel it when you get fragged. I will just point out that like Disney World has been doing this for decades. If you go to the Honey, I Shrunk the Kids exhibit, like that's just this is what that is. Movie theaters have been doing it for decades. Like it's a very common thing. But they're like, well, what if we did it in your home? Wouldn't that be cool? And everybody said no. Everybody said no. And they still needed to make money. So apparently they had some friends over at Land Rover and Land Rover was like, yes. What if we put speakers in the seats of our cars so that you could really feel the music?

1:14:02Oh, God. I think we all know where my head is going, but I'm trying to keep things PG rated. I promise, David, I would keep it PG rated. I don't think this is as wild as you're making it sound out, simply because massage seats have existed in luxury cars for a long time. Yeah, that's true. So, but I just, you know, it's like it's music and it's in your car. You just, yeah, I want to listen to some hopping tunes. Here's a pitch for you. Maybe they feel like if the speakers are in the seats and you're feeling the music or whatever, you don't have to turn it up as loud. So if you've got kids sleeping in the back, you can still experience the music as a driver without turning up the volume too loud.

1:14:45No, what this is, is you pull up to a red light, you find just the right beats per minute, and you for sure miss the green light. You know what I mean? You do not know when the light changes. 100%. This is giving you a distraction when you're waiting in line at McDonald's for your chicken nuggets. Yeah, those chicken nuggets are never, ever coming out to you. Don't worry about it. But if they do, they're going to taste great. Dan, I appreciate your optimism here. I really do. I tried. I tried. car companies continuing to flail to find things to charge you money for is my favorite story in the tech industry right now it's it's delightful i hope there's a subscription for this by the way i hope the hardware is there and then they're like oh but you have to pay us 12.99 a month to use the vibrating seats and if you stop paying it'll vibrate like offbeat and horribly and it'll just ruin your entire experience as you drive down the road it'll be by the way did you know that you could pay for your seat to vibrate with the music?

1:15:41Oh, God. So mine is a very new phone, the Motorola Razr Plus, which is the latest in Motorola's reboot of the flip phone. This one feels like much closer to getting it right. The big new thing is it has, instead of a teeny tiny little stripe of a screen on the outside, it has, what is it, Dan? Like 3.6 inches of screen on the outside? It's like a whole phone on the outside. Literally, it's like, yeah, it's just like a little phone. It's$1 ,000. Right. I mean, what phone is in$1 ,000? I thought they were like$1 ,500. Well, these flip styles that go normal size to small are about$1 ,000. Right, yeah.

1:16:20The Galaxy Z Flip, I think, is the same price. But they usually don't look this cool. Well, yeah. I mean, well, they look cool and they get compact. They're not like the product of... But they don't look this cool. This looks cool because, like David said, there's a whole phone on the outside of it. Yeah. And to me, it's like the thing that this solves for me is the number of times that I'm like, I just need to respond with an emoji to this text message. But if I open my phone, I will then open Instagram and I will be using my phone for 45 minutes. Like this neatly solves that very specific problem for me in a way that makes me very happy.

1:16:53Does it? What if you just open Instagram on the outside? No, because it's too tiny. Because I think you can. It's too tiny. You'll get annoyed. I don't know. You look at Allison's article. She's got a whole maps on there and it's got a keyboard. Yeah, but what if she has to do anything down where the camera bump is? That's just a black hole. They build games that like use the camera bump. You like make the little marble go into the camera bump. Go into shady places. I think this is cool. I agree with David. I think that this is finally the flip that actually looks good. Yeah, you're probably right that this solves none of my existential problems about using phones.

1:17:29But in the sense that I want a phone that is small and folds out to be big, but is useful in both ways. Good job, Motorola. You got it right. So Allison had a piece this week before this announcement talking about it's going to be hot foldable summer. This is the first wave. We're still waiting for the Pixel Fold to come out after its announcement. Samsung's rumored to be announcing stuff in June or July, I think. But the way that she described these style phones, specifically the flip style, is like a combination of a smartwatch and a normal cell phone. And then this outside display lets you do all the things that you might do on a smartwatch.

1:18:03Reply to messages, look at directions, control music, maybe smart home stuff or whatever. And this looks like definitely much more usable, especially than Samsung's tiny little strip of a display that's very limited in what it will show. yeah flip phones give them to me all of them i love them all all right we need to get out of here thank you both this was this was very fun we're gonna have oh so much more wwbc stuff there's just we'd like the headset is our life for the foreseeable future so if you don't care about headsets i'm i'm so very sorry lots of good stuff on the verge this week we had our lisa documentary that everybody should watch about the apple lisa we talked a bunch about that on the wednesday show but the documentary is amazing it's a like the best half hour you'll spend this week next time you're waiting for your chicken nuggets watch the documentary it's excellent we also our features team ran a thing about a kid who kept impersonating cops in chicago and kept getting away with it it's it's deeply weird and excellent good lots of good reviews and stuff on those on the site this week it was really good week like the thing that happens before wwdc is everybody just tries to like dump all their news because then apple kind of eats the news cycle for two weeks so there's all kinds of stuff going on it was very good the one last thing i want to point everybody to is this device made by a designer called Paragraphica, which is just an AI camera.

1:19:18I can't believe none of us picked this as our... It was my pick until I remembered Range Rover. I'm sorry. We're just going to call this a bonus lightning round item before we go here. So this thing, it's a camera, but when you press the shutter, instead of actually taking a picture, it collects a bunch of data about the location, the current weather conditions, what it's looking at, all this kind of stuff. feeds all of that to an image generator and then spits back an ai generated image theoretically of the thing that you were just looking at is it a camera david what's a photo you guys this is like it's it's honestly it's so good that nila is not here because this would have been the entire show we would have spent two hours just debating this thing i don't want to disparage the designer that made this because i think it's super creative and and very interesting i just the concept of it makes me very sad i will say they would agree they meant this as like an art project to start conversations, not like the gadget of the future.

1:20:10So I think in that sense, I think it's totally fascinating. But yeah, I think it's very possible to like, viscerally hate this thing and be totally correct and valid in your take on it. What is reality? Yeah, I hate it. And I love it at the same time. Like I'm truly torn by it. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. But there's a there's a thing. We'll put the link in the show notes. There's actually a site you can go to and you just sort of like, mad libs your way through some of the information that it needs. And then it spits back an image to you it's like it's cool the weirdest trippiest thing of all time it's very fun i highly suggest everybody everybody do it are they real photos let us know yeah who knows if you get a good one of us let us know please feed us to all images generators and let us know how it goes anyway we we're gonna be back on wednesday we have a bunch of post wwdc stuff planned it's all gonna be very fun uh we have some cool collaby stuff going on with some friends that we've been working on that's going to be really great.

1:21:05We'll be back here for the show next week once we've digested. It's going to be very fun. A lot of Apple stuff going on. If you have questions, call the hotline. We're going to try to answer as many questions as you can. 866-VERGE11. If you have Apple questions now or after the keynote, let us know. Dan, Nelano will be there live. It's going to be really fun. We will see you all in Cupertino next week. That's it. That's VergeCast. Rock and roll.

1:21:32And that's a wrap for Vergecast this week. We'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email at vergecast at theverge.com. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and the Vox Media Podcast Network. The show is produced by me, Liam James, and our senior audio director, Andrew Marino. Our editorial director is Brooke Minters. That's it. We'll see you next week.

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