Samsung fans and video apps: they’re everywhere

23:44There's no series, no syndication. There's no money in limited series, it turns out. That's a real problem. This is the worst lightning round of all time. We've done two things. It's been 25 minutes. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm done. That's it. Alex, what's yours? Okay, mine is, Sean has a really great review of the LG... I'm going to look at this, guys. LG 27 GR95Q GQE-B. And when people hear that name, it's sex. You want to go to Best Buy and ask for the LG 27GR95QE-B. It's great. Yeah, yeah. It's a new 27-inch OLED display. And he's tested some of the other ones. There was an Asus one that has pretty much the same panel, but a little bit different.

24:29How you control it is different. But he really liked this one and feels like we're kind of hitting that point where you can say, yeah, I can go buy an OLED monitor instead of a traditional monitor. And that's really exciting because OLED is typically better. But a lot of those growing pains OLED have had are still there. It's got some issues like it's local dimming. You would think it would be really, really good, right? Because it's OLED. And so each pixel is controlled. But the minute things start to get bigger and bigger and wider and wider, it needs to start limiting that. so it doesn't blow out all those pixels and create burn-in and a lot of other problems.

25:05And when it starts to do that, it gets really, really dim and can just be super unpleasant to look at. It sounds like they've done a good job of fixing that. It's still not perfect, but it's gotten a lot better. And so, I don't know. I have two of the previous really good LG monitors on my desk, and I love them. And now I have total FOMO, and I wish I had this OLED, even though it's got some issues. It just seems cool. This piece and another one we're going to talk about about 3D file formats are like the reason The Verge exists, in my opinion. Yeah. Like, you read this piece. We talked last week about knowing people's bylines.

25:40You read this piece, it's Sean Hollister. Just like this. All the way through, it's great. And the exasperation that comes through. Yeah. Because what these OLED panels, when you use them as monitors do, is they dim the entire panel when you have big fields of white. Right. Because they don't want to, as Alex was saying, you don't want to blow out or burn in. So they dim the entire panel. And Sean is like, the problem is all computer interfaces are mostly white. So you can just feel his exasperation in this review. Yeah, and he talked about babying the screen to not have that happen and not get burn in.

26:18And I so felt that. Like, the thing you have where you know the potential problem, And every time it does that sort of artificial dim, you can feel yourself getting closer to it. And so you start to just move things around on your computer just to change the pixels. And it's like, I am thinking about this monitor a lot more than feels necessary. Yeah. There's also a perfect Sean moment in the review where he puts an image slider in. And the image slider is just his desk setup with the old monitor and the new OLED monitor. And they look exactly the same. And he's just excited that it's exactly the same.

26:52It's great. You should just read it. It's great. It's a really good piece. You're going to get FOMO reading it because you're going to want it, even though he points out every single flaw in it. Yeah. And I think it should be like a call to action for Windows and Apple to fix their shit. We had another piece this week by Victoria Song about how smartwatches this year are super iterative. And it's actually really interesting to read those things together because the iterative smartwatch is boring. right like here's some minor updates to the samsung watches we've made the letters unsettlingly huge and added teeth to the displays fine uh we think the apple watch is going to be super iterative this year fine that's the boring iterative what sean's monitor piece is like this is the best kind of iterative like you start with let's put an oled tv in your desk and here's all the problems and here's like the last step before the next iteration when this idea is complete.

27:51Yeah. And this is almost the most exciting version of a product, right? Like if you're into gadgets, this one right when you can clearly – okay, I think Sean lists like fix these three things and this category is ready. Like there's something really excited about that version of the iterative process versus the sort of like end state of phones that we appear to be in. And it's nice to see it happen kind of fast, or it feels fast to me, because we were seeing our first Ola displays, what, 2015, 2016? I think it was like the earliest ones. And it didn't work because when you shrink down big TV technology, it's actually really hard to shrink that down into a monitor that makes sense close to your face.

28:31That's why the two technologies aren't in lock sync at all times. And they're starting to figure it out. They're starting to invest in it and really sort it out. and people are buying it, which is also good because then the prices will hopefully go down and we can all buy them. Yeah. These are Sean's three things, by the way. 100 nits of sustained brightness, which is related to that dimming issue. A warranty update because the warranty doesn't cover burn-in, which is, I don't know, and a decent sale to your point, Alex. Yeah, the 100 nits of extra brightness is going to be like, that's going to be a real challenge because that's where OLED always falls is on brightness.

29:08It's where it struggles. And so I'll be really curious to see how they do that and if they do that and when they do that. But, man, I'm excited. Like, Sean got me super hyped for this. I think it's great because we're definitely on this path of convergence between small TVs and computer monitors in a way that I think is really fun. Especially because, like, my assumption is this is driven by people who sit at desks and play video games and want something that looks like a TV and a computer monitor in one screen. And there are more and more of those people all the time. And this is the kind of thing that is sitting right at the middle of that.

29:44And I think like Samsung's doing all kinds of wild stuff with like a smart TV in one input and the other input, its computer monitor. I think that's very cool. But like OLED is the right answer, right? When we get it right, it's going to be OLED. And it does, it feels like we're just around the corner from that in a very cool way. It's so close. I'm pumped to have like a 32-inch computer monitor slash television just sitting on my desk. It's going to be amazing. I cannot wait. And it's going to be the most, I mean, I think there's still going to be some challenges there, particularly around HDR, because right now the software side of HDR sucks still.

30:18Like Microsoft and Apple just aren't doing it very well. The game companies aren't doing it very well. Nobody's kind of figured it out and settled on something consistent and pleasing to the eyeballs. And so I think we're still going to, that's where it's going to start to lag for full TV replacement. But most people probably don't care about HDR as much as I do. So most people will probably be fine. It's just going to be like me and Sean over in a corner being like, HDR is still not up to snuff. And that's okay. We're going to have a great time over that corner. All right, Neela, what's yours?

30:48I have two on the Vision Pro, which we haven't talked to in a while. So Apple's virtual reality headset, which they really do not want to call virtual reality headset. So one is a little one. They have opened up developer registrations and testing. So Mark Gurman has some screenshots of the process developers need to go through. Sign up for this. You pick a headband size, pick a light seal size. You have to go in physically to their testing centers. You get fitted, you get lenses, and you can try your apps on it. That's a lot. And he also reported, and I'm just going to quote, here's Mark Gurman at Bloomberg, hearing so far that the Vision Pro Developer Labs to test apps and actual hardware have been underfilled with small amounts of developers.

31:27Some developers are emphasizing companies not offering any East Coast sessions. Cupertino is the only option for the entire United States. This makes sense to me. I just want to be clear about that. This product is so complicated, they have to fit it to you, that you, of course, are starting as small as you can before you, like, roll it out at scale. Also, no one knows what to build for this. Yeah. So it just doesn't surprise me that development is starting slow. But that's a note. And I think it's obvious it's going to start slow. What's equally interesting to me is that coming up in September is Meta Connect, where they're probably going to announce the Oculus Quest 3, which is a scaled, you know, sells as many units.

32:08The Quest line has sold as many units as any game console. So you kind of have the two things happening in parallel. Apple starting very small with a larger base of developers. It's like pretty excited. Meta already having application and like installed base scale with the Quest. I think I know what's going to happen. I think Apple's going to be very successful at the Vision Pro compared to the Quest, but who knows? It's very expensive compared to the Quest, but they're starting really, really small. Do you think there's going to be a little shadow Apple developer conference around Connect? Because you have all of those developers down there near Cupertino.

32:49Do you think something's going to happen? Well, that's also presumably only a couple of weeks after Apple's big fall event, where I suspect it will have a lot to say about things like the Vision Pro. Right. I don't know. I think the fall event for Apple looks like the iPhone. Sure. Maybe a Mac. And they say nothing about the Vision Pro. It's unreleased headset with no developer support thus far. Maybe. Although, I don't know. I have two competing feelings about this. On the one hand, I think you're exactly right, that Apple is starting small in every way. It's going to run most iPad apps right out of the box.

33:23So in that sense, it's just going to work and everybody will like check the checkbox to make it work on the Vision Pro and do the clicky interface. It's going to work like your iPad works with iPhone apps. Yeah, and think about how many apps did that, right? Like that will get you through a year or two. And then I think we're going to get to the point where a lot of these folks start to turn and say, okay, what can this thing be? But I was really surprised after the launch, just polling developers I talked to and the number of them who were like, yeah, we'll probably end up doing something. But at this moment, it doesn't really feel like a priority for us.

33:57So I think there's going to be an interesting chicken and egg thing going on over the next six months. And I don't really know how that's going to shake out. Yeah, I feel like Apple probably needs to be a little – like, they need to be more proactive. I totally get why they're not. That makes a lot of sense. But at the same time, if everybody's looking at your product wearingly and are like, is this a total boondoggle? Is this the Apple boondoggle? You probably do want to be a little aggressive with getting some really cool killer apps on there and courting those developers who aren't necessarily based in Cupertino or near Cupertino to come out and try it out.

34:30I just think they got time. Yeah, that's true. In order to try this thing out, you need to sit down, have it fitted to your head, and special lenses made for your glass. Like, that is just a slow, expensive process that you are going to try to refine and optimize as much as you can before you, like, put them in every Apple store. Yeah. And I think that's, like, their first problem. I think this is the inherent problem with every face computer is that you have to wear them on your face. Yeah. And then I think the bigger problem is that Apple itself, outside of what if we did cool NBA things, has not really demoed a killer app.

35:08You know, like the killer app that I hear people talk about is I'm standing at my desk mirroring my Mac onto five gigantic virtual displays. And it's like, that's not good enough. You know, like that's cool. I mean, that's not nothing, but that's not that doesn't get Apple where it thinks it's going here. But isn't that why you want to court developers? is because maybe one of them has the really good idea that's a killer app. Yeah, but you got to know what you're courting. That's true. You can't just be swiping right on all the developers to take this courtship metaphor in a horrible direction.

35:41You got to have a type. I don't know. I mean, we had years of fart apps and beer pouring before everybody figured out the iPhone app store. But the difference there was that a lot of people were able to get it and use it and say, oh, I understand new things I can do with this. the challenge that this is going to be that it's really expensive. Their by all accounts aren't going to be that many of them. It's going to be super complicated to get set up for and start using. And so just the hurdles to getting one in your hands so that you can start to dream about what it might be for are just so much higher than anything Apple has built before.

36:14That I wonder how it will change things. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, that fart app era is really instructive, right? Because everyone jokes about it. Remember that app, I Am Rich, redownload an app and you can just like... It cost$1 ,000, right? Wasn't that the thing? I think it might have been more. I think it might have been like$100 ,000. But there was an app called I'm Rich where you could download it and you could hit a button and pay a bunch of money to the developer. And it would just put up a badge that said, I am rich. One of the greatest ideas for an application in all of history. Agreed.

36:40Like just truly one of the greatest ideas for an application in all of history. And Apple was like, we can't have this. It's a joke. The fart apps are a joke. And if you just think about where we've come, the two categories that have succeeded and driven the iPhone are social networking and free-to-play games. Yeah. And everything else is kind of around it, right? Like the Ubers and Lyfts of the world are revolutions in their way, but they're just kind of a duopoly that is stagnant. Like all the other stuff pales in comparison to the size of free-to-play games and social networking apps. And it's hard to see even what the fart apps look like on the$3 ,500 Vision Pro.

37:16I was going to say, what is the fart app equivalent going to be on a face computer? All right. That's a reader email. Send us your ideas. Yes, let us know. I'm actually very curious. And I'm confident that many of our readers have Oculus Quests. They have PSVRs. Tell us what you think the fart apps are going to be and what you think the TikToks are going to be of the Vision Pro. Love that. Because I truly cannot tell you the answer. And I also have a PSVR too. I don't think Gran Turismo VR is going to be the TikTok of the Vision Pro. As much as I want it to be, I don't think that's going to happen.

37:49I don't think so either. Neal, what's your other one? So the other one is my other favorite story of the week. another just perfect Verge story. It's a format war, y 'all. Apple announced the Vision Pro platform is going to join the Alliance for OpenUSD, which is a standards body. It's developing interoperable 3D tools and file formats. That's NVIDIA, Adobe, Autodesk, Pixar. They're basically developing interoperable 3D tools, file formats. Here's the object formats. Here's how they're defined. You can move them between these platforms. You can manipulate them between these platforms. I love this.

38:24It also means that the apps you use, like Maya, Houdini, Autodesk, 3DS Max, Adobe Substance 3D designers, they can interoperate. They can use the same files. NVIDIA can accelerate these graphics. This is notably one of the first times you see Apple and NVIDIA working together, and they obviously have common purpose in doing so, which is surprising. These companies have not historically liked each other. But what's funny is there's another standards group. there's the metaverse standards forum which has epic and meta in it and like they're also working with usd they've got working groups to like look at this file format but here we are we did it we did hg dvd and blu-ray again for the metaverse uh i'm so happy it seems like i'm guessing usd is gonna become the basis of a lot of things just given the people who are supporting it But this notion that the 3D internet, the metaverse, should have interoperable file formats that sort of every computer can use and all these applications can manipulate is a big idea.

39:29Everyone agrees it's a good idea. They keep calling it like HTML for 3D. It's far from subtle. Like there's a long way from here to there. And so you just see like every other standard. Everyone agrees. Oh, all these computers should use HDMI. all these TVs to do HDMI, who's going to be in charge of HDMI CEC and should that work well? And the answer is like, no.

39:51We'll see. So to that point, what is the right metaphor for this? Because I was trying to figure this out. Should we talk about USD the way we talk about coding languages like JavaScript or HTML and the fact that that works across lots of apps? Should we talk about it like PDFs or JPEGs, like file formats that everybody kind of agrees to understand? I was thinking of like video containers, not even codecs, containers. Okay. Like the AVI versus MP4 kind of generation of things. And that turned into a gigantic mess. So that's discouraging. Yeah. And then VLC came and saved us all. Here's the description from NVIDIA, which is technical, but easy to understand.

40:34OpenUSD supports the requirements of building virtual worlds like geometry, cameras, lights, and materials. It also includes features necessary for scaling to complex data sets. And it's tremendously extensible, enabling the technology to adapt to workflows beyond visual effects. So you've got a 3D scene. You need to describe some objects in it, the materials and textures of those objects, where the cameras are, the geometry of the scene itself. Like, that's just a lot of data structures that you can standardize. So that sounds like coding language to me. It's more like file. It's like you have a word file and it has some structured data that describes the font and the line breaks and the whatever.

41:11And then the sort of the text is standardized dot doc, by the way, or dot doc X, one of the most controversial file formats of all time. Right. Cause it's just text. But until a while ago, it was a proprietary file format. So you just got this issue where you have these proprietary file formats, people developing them, and then you've got files that only the application can read, and that creates tremendous lock-in. I think this industry is saying, okay, that's bad. We know that's bad for a huge number of reasons, particularly consumer adoption. right like you want if you believe the matthew balls of the world that the metaverse will enable you to drop into the already created 3d world of a pixar movie and like swing a lightsaber around the the thing that the pixar animators are working in has to be all the way back compatible to the vision pro right otherwise you have to go and remake you have to redo that work in the vision pros format.

42:13And that, I think everybody understands that that seems like a huge waste of money. Well, this is the kind of thing you do when the industry is small and you're still in the like rising tide lifts all boats phase of things. And when this gets bigger and there's more money in walling off your, your walled garden, like for that reason, it's not surprising to me that meta is not part of this, right? Like meta has more reason to say, we don't need to be compatible. people are already doing our thing than some others. And I would not be shocked if this becomes more contentious over time for that reason.

42:45Oh, man. I really hope they become competing file formats. And I really hope how they open and are broken for the normal consumer is more like doc than it is like video. Because video files, you try to open it, it just wouldn't work. Whereas doc, you'd open it. You get the weird characters. What's happening here? And that's what I want. but like in a 3D space strapped to my face. That just sounds delightful in a weird way. Oh my God, I want it so bad. Alex wants to be like lost in a bad trip, laser bong, texting while driving. Yeah, it sounds great. But you know, to that same point, you can see why Pixar is like, okay, we spend millions, hundreds of millions of dollars creating the world of cars.

43:29And we want to make a video game where you can race around the car's track. I don't want it, but yeah. Well, sure. But then we can just take all of that rendering work, all of that scene modeling work, and put it on the Vision Pro as a video game. And if you don't have some common file formats, like, that becomes more costly than it's worth. Right. And that's just, like, that's one vision of the sort of 3D future. But you can see why Pixar or Epic or Unreal, which are deep in Hollywood, are making that push now. Totally. By the way, this lightning round has taken 45 minutes. We should take a break.

44:01But first, I just want to say, Eli, that anything that allows me to drop into a Pixar movie with a lightsaber is a huge technological victory, and we should all be in favor of it. You got to go listen to the Matthew Ball episode of Decoder. This is like what he was talking about the whole time. It is a fascinating vision of the future. I have no idea if it's a good idea. The good news is all that's owned by Disney. So is it possible? Maybe. We'll see. All right. We have to take a break from this interminable lightning round. We're going to come back and read some reader emails. We'll be right back.

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47:00All right, we're back. It's time for some reader emails. So we've been asking for emails lately. It's been really fun reading them all. Please keep sending us emails. Vergecast at theverge.com. We love it. We asked a couple of weeks ago for people who are deep in the Samsung ecosystem to email us. It has been a deluge. And I just want to call this out specifically. I have been asking for years for people who are hardcore Android gaming phone users to email us. We have never gotten one email. I asked for people who use the S Pen to email us and we get like five a day. You're going to get four emails tomorrow about the Razer phone.

47:39Just get ready. I'm just saying, if you use an Android gaming phone to play games, where are you? Because the S Pen people are out in force. and we've just never heard from the gaming phone people. Maybe they don't listen to the Vergecast. Who knows? But just there's your data point for today. Okay, let's do some emails. I want to start. I'm not going to read this whole one at all. I'm just going to start with an email from someone named Mo for this reason. They call themselves a Samsung fanboy or quote, a Samboy. Yes. And just threw it out there as if that's a thing that everyone knows, which is just perfect.

48:16It is now. So thank you for Samboy. David, do you want to read Randy's email? Sure. We got an email from Randy that says, I'm one of those Samsung tablet sickos and wanted to chime in. I really appreciate the extent to which. So Samboys and sickos, already from the jump, incredible emails to receive. They've all really leaned into being sickos and I really appreciate it. It says, I switched from having Surface tablets to using a Samsung Galaxy Tab S7 Plus. And the reason for that is one piece of software, Clip Studio Paint. which is like three words to mean the same thing. But anyway,

48:51it went from being a desktop only app to being available on Galaxy slash Android. And now I could finally have a normal tablet experience and get to be productive and creative doing illustration on the same slim tablet. Obviously that means I'm using the S Pen on it all the time. Thank you, Samsung, for including it with the tablet and not requiring me to purchase it separately, which is a very good Apple burn. Great job, Randy. It's my laptop, really. I take it to work with me so I can have some videos going while I'm at my desk, pop open Clip Studio to do an illustration or get a doodle down on paper, open up Kindle to read the newest manga volume, and when you need to prepare a D &D campaign, I'll snap over to Dex to better multitask at a coffee shop and get it all done.

49:27It's the best mobile computer I've ever had, and I didn't have to give Apple a penny. This person is 100 % either a Samsung employee or should be a Samsung employee, because that is the best pitch of all time for Samsung devices. Call Randy now. Yeah. Or it's Dan Seifert, the only other Dex fan that I know. He just changed his name, his burner account. Dan D. Seifert. This is incredible. So first of all, I just want to start with the end there. I didn't have to give Apple a penny. This is a real theme in the Samsung emails. Yeah. I don't like Apple, so I'm in the Samsung ecosystem. That motivates more people than you could possibly imagine, at least from our emails.

50:08Obviously, this is a self-selecting group. The people who chose to email us about their love of Samsung, but there's a commonality there, which is nobody wants to use Apple stuff, and that's here. The flip to Dex, that's the turn for me. It's so good. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love it. We found him. The guy who uses Dex. Thank you, Randy. He's a sicko. But I also, I'll snap over to Dex to better multitask at a coffee shop and get it all done. Does that imply that you're bringing a monitor and a keyboard and mouse to a coffee shop, plugging it in? I can only hope so. Yeah, that's the correct answer.

50:41Or you've got the flippy cover thing. Every tablet is that tablet now. Yeah, true. But I will say this makes the right case for Samsung stuff, right? Like Samsung devices do more stuff than anybody else's devices. Does it do it all super elegantly and beautifully? No. Does it do it all? Yes. Yeah. Somewhere in here it could be like, and then I get home and I mirror cast my LG TV. It's like, well, you can do that. Got them options. Yeah, it also has an IR blaster for when I need to control my mini split. Like, okay. And there's something to that. There is something to that. I will note that there's a killer app involved here.

51:18Right. There's Clip Studio Paint, which if you don't have that killer app and it's only on the iPad or it's only on a Windows computer, this all falls apart for you. So next we have Mark who wrote to us. This is a tale of woe. I'm just going to put this out there. Mark says, I'm a UX designer. Pen displays are helpful in my work. I realize I'm not typical. Which, Mark, my friend. You're not alone, Mark. Yeah, there's a community of UX designers using pen displays. We'll hook you up with some subreddits. Mark says, I've tried Samsung tablets and phones with S-Pen since the beginning of them. The emoji I think of is the Dieter face with, you know, the line.

51:56Just the line. I tried to like them. I use an iPad Pro and a Wacom Cintiq 32 Pro daily now. I use a USB flash drive so I'm not stuck in Apple's cloud for my content. I'm done. with Samsung Galaxy tabs and notes. Wow. And then he says, I should be able to use any device, not lose content, but the devices don't last. Nothing's on my devices for very long. I want the good pens, which are Apple and Wacom. I try not to be a prisoner of proprietary clouds. Pretty good. Yes. That's a Verge Cash shirt. I want that shirt. Mark, as a designer, if you want to design a I'm not a prisoner of proprietary clouds shirt for us, we'll sell it and we'll throw you a cut.

52:35And then I use an iPad to read or sketch comfortably. I use big screens to get stuff done. This is the counter argument, right? The Samsung tablets can do everything. People are really attracted to them. Again, my dream is to edit the entire Verge by circling copy in red. If you could make that happen for me, Google Docs, I'm golden. I'll buy whatever tablet you want. But then you actually do it. You're like, oh, this is pretty wanky. Alex, I think this is like your e-ink tablet story every month, right? This is my dream. I bought the newest one. and we like move on. It sucks. I love it. I also think that model that he describes at the end is kind of a great way to think about a lot of devices.

53:16I should be able to drive over any device and not lose content. Love that. I want to use the good pens. Love that. Don't be a prisoner of proprietary clouds. Excellent. And then I use big screens to get stuff done. Should also be a Verge t-shirt. That's a mug. That's like a, you walk into the meeting and you put your mug down. I love it. That's great. All right. Next, we have an email from a reader named Alexa. I'm going to have my friend Alex read this email, and you decide who actually sent this email to us. It's not me. I don't like the name Alexa because it's not my name. And then the smart speaker always confuses us.

54:00I got my Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra in March, April time and was very excited for the built-in S Pen. Felt like a real harkback to the old Samsung champ I had as a young teen with a wee stylus. Again, you decide who Alexa is in this story. Not me. But Alexa, we should be friends. For the first month or two, it was great. Used it often. Reconnected with my creative side and doodled a bit. Took notes in meetings. The usual stuff. The killer app of the pin, however, lies in a more unconventional use case. Seriously, Alexa, we can be besties. It is the absolute perfect size to poke down joints. Yes.

54:38The perfect, and this is bold, the perfect width. Four or five months in, the S pin is used every single day. But I can't remember the last time I touched the screen. A perfectly portable pokey. Everywhere you go, it's there for you. I gotta go get a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra is what I learned from this. A perfectly portable pokey sounds like a sentence we can't say on this show as very many times. I love this email so much. So good. I'm such an old man. I read this email and I was like, does her elbow hurt? Like, is she just tapping her joints?

55:20Very long, long look at it. Listen, Samsung devices do all the things. Yeah. You think this isn't on a spec sheet somewhere in South Korea? Come on. They know. It's important to get those joints rolled perfectly. All right. My request is we should transition away from the Samsung emails. Can we play Laser Bong as a transition song, please? I can't see Andrew's face, but I think it's the Dita emoji right now. All right. So we have a couple more. These are some of my favorites. So we've been asking for consumer wars, like product wars, fanboy wars. The Rain-X versus water versus other brands' windshield washer fluid continues to rage in our emails.

56:00The Rain-X people are furious that we've acknowledged anything else. They're very mad at us. Rain-X bug wash, by far, the fans are out of control. I was in the gas station recently. I needed to buy some windshield washer fluid. I didn't. I just bought whatever was there, and I literally felt bad. that is the weirdest feeling I've ever had as a purchaser of anything. I was like, ah, it's not right. And it's like, they got to me. You just vindicated all of them. Well, no, that's just bullying. I don't think they just, I was just like, I felt, I felt weird about wearing the wrong shoes to elementary school.

56:34That was exactly that feeling. I do not think it is any more or less significant to my windshield wiper performance. However, if you continue to have feelings, email us, I'm dying to know. Here's my favorite email of this entire Consumer Wars conversation. It might be one of the best emails we have ever gotten. It vindicates everything I know to be true about the Birch. So good. It's from Zachary. I run a pool cleaning service in Southern California. I have listened every week since the Engadget podcast days, and I thought I would share the argument about which high-end carbon fiber pool pull is best.

57:11Yes. When you service pools all day long, your pole is your most used tool. Yeah, it is. They have been aluminum for decades, but in the last five years, carbon fiber has hit the scene. This is a huge upgrade, causing less back strain during heavy use. And then he lists three categories. There's the wrong. There are those who only care about specs. and they choose the primate pool pool. They think the only spec that matters is weight. They ignore a harder to use latch, the poorer construction, and the inferior customer service. I just want to say that the primate pool pool is not like a dig. That's the actual name of the product.

57:56That's the name of it. And that's for you spec monsters. Then he lists the best. The hyper pool by ultimate pool tools is the vastly superior pole. Yes, it does weigh a few ounces more than the original, but that leaves out so much. The hyperpole has the cleverly named hyperdrain that allows water collected in the pole to flood out instantly as you're moved from the water. The weight savings from the other pole is quickly outdone by the water weight savings compared with the better latches and the great customer service. Easy decision. Yeah. This man is furious about pool poles, and I love it.

58:31And then - It's so good. We get to the silly. This is his label. this is the poll that would have been released by will.i.am incredible this is the best part of this whole email that tells you everything you need to know and it's also will.i.am's legacy and that makes me so happy just wait until you hear this description the skim light carbon light is needed by no one and solves no problems instead of a tried and true circular tube It is a 10-sided decagon, preventing you from spinning it in your hand. It also has pre-drilled set points, only allowing it to click into place in certain spots. End of email.

59:16Point made. It's silly. End of email. We reached out back to Zachary. I'm dying to find the forums where this is all being argued out. If you want to write 5 ,000 words about the introduction of carbon fiber into the pool industry and how it's torn that industry apart, just email me. Anytime. We will commission that story anytime. I love it. I love that this exists. This is the, like, in many ways, the purpose of the internet is allowing people to be their best selves arguing about carbon fiber pool tools. Oh my God, these tools are so expensive. They're so expensive. They're so expensive. It's so good.

59:57Read some great surprises out. Okay, so the, The Hyperpole, that's the good one. Yeah. That's$275. $275! That's the one you want. It's$275, and it's great. It's also sold out. Looks like a lightsaber, by the way. Huge fan. I would get no work done with this. The Primate 3X ranges from$254.99 to$324.99, which is just... I'm telling you. I think that's the special edition Kevlar weave. No, that's only$299. Is it the teal tiki? Also$2.99. It's good. I'm trying to figure out which one is so expensive. I'm saying if you are a budding reporter or journalist out there and you're like, I can nail this feature about the war that has taken over the pool cleaning industry because of carbon fiber.

1:00:50Hit us up. Send me a note. Send me a pitch. We'll run that story. First slot in the hero. We'll send it to the awards. I will send that story to the Pulitzer Committee. You just let me know. Alex, I found the most expensive primate pole. It's the psycho chimp one. And it means the pole is decorated with what look like bored ape NFTs, basically. This is so spectacular. All right, we got to get off pool tools. I'm just saying, if you want to write that story, just hit me up. All right, we got two more. They're both A+. David, you want to take the next one? Yeah, Neil, this one I think is directed, especially to you.

1:01:25This is from Jonathan. It says, there are two big manufacturers of premium woodworking hand tools in North America. Yes. Lye Nielsen and Lee Valley slash Veritas. You know, those, the big brands. Yeah. Lye Nielsen mostly makes souped up versions of 100-year-old Stanley designs. Lee Valley slash Veritas make more modern takes on traditional tools with adventurous designs and materials. You can instantly tell why there's a huge like holy war between these two companies, by the way. Like, cool versions of the old thing or new ideas. Like, those sides never like each other. Anyway, Lyon Nielsen is preferred by the well-heeled traditionalist.

1:02:05Lee Valley tools could be at home on the robo workbench in the Batcave. Hand tool specific. When I think of Batman, by the way, I think of premium handcrafted woodworking. Yeah, it's amazing. That's how he gets his belt. Hand tool. Jonathan continues. Please, there's lots more Jonathan to get through. Hand tool specific vaporware bonus. Several years ago, Ly Nielsen showed a sample of a plow plane they were seeking to manufacture. It was based on the highly collectible Miller patent plow plane. That's a fun phrase to say. The internet message boards went crazy, of course, and nothing. Ly Nielsen stopped showing the sample.

1:02:41Eventually, if you asked about it at one of their traveling tool shows, the presenter would give you a dirty look and ignore the question. Yes, we are talking about a tool that only makes inset grooves in boards. Yes, this is something you can do with any$99 router with speed and precision. Yes, Lee Valley has since released three different plow brands ranging in price from$160 to$440 before additional cutters or specific attachments. End of email. Amazing. I would absolutely buy one. Yeah. Yeah. Just look at this old thing. It's cool. Well, you can't get it. It's vaporware. I know, but I would if I could.

1:03:16Okay. I just want to unpack this email for one second. In order to know this information, people have to go out and get it. So, for example, the sentence, the message boards went crazy and then nothing implies quite a bit of monitoring of message boards. Uh-huh. Just putting that out there. Second, they stopped showing the sample. If you asked about it at one of their traveling tool shows, you would get a dirty look and ignore the question. implies that multiple people at multiple tool shows in multiple locations asked about this tool and received a dirty look and then collated that information on the internet such that it is now a fact.

1:03:59This is the Snyder cut of hand tools. I'm just saying, that's incredible. The people who do this are Taylor Swift fans waiting to see when 1989 Taylor's version will come out and fans of the plow plane from lee nelson i love it i just love that everyone is the same if you use a tool long enough like this is why the verge is obsessed with like mechanical keyboards and oled screens because that's what we like touch and look at all day but if you touch and look at plow planes all day you're gonna get this obsessed about plow planes i love it everyone is the same you are all our people do you think the lie nelson people are like forum bombing here We have three of them ranging in price that Batman could use them.

1:04:41All right. One more. When I think of Verge stories, you all know how obsessed I am with Google and Zelda. The combo platter of Google and Zelda. Alex, you want to take this one? Yeah. So this one's from John. He loves the show. Hey, John, we love you. In your most recent Friday episode, you were talking about autocorrect and how it's changing in iOS 17. and it reminded me of one of my favorite weird things that I've been seeing happening on Google lately. I've been playing The Legend of Zelda, Tears of the Kingdom far too much. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and he's not. I think half of this Vergecast does.

1:05:16How sexy is your link, John? Yeah. That's not where this email is going. Please do not send us emails about sexy link. I'll take your Samsung emails all day. No sexy link. Send them all to David. And being not very good at video games, I've had to look up hints and guides regularly. And as shorthand, folks are generally typing T-O-T-K for Tears of the Kingdom, plus whatever shrine, quest, boss battle that they're looking for. I can confirm. I do this all the time. So iOS doesn't recognize T-O-T-K as a word because it's not and autocompletes it as York. So now on Google, if you start to type the name of a shrine or a quest, one of the autocompletes will inevitably include York at the end because people are hitting search too quickly.

1:06:03This is so good. It's true, by the way. You can start typing Glioc and it'll complete to York. That's amazing. It's incredible. This is like the layered emergent behaviors here are out of control, right? It's wonderful. So first you have to iOS, maybe Android two doesn't recognize this thing, regardless of how much they're claiming there's machine learning and whatever. They haven't figured out the TOTK is a thing that is happening. So the keyboards are auto completing to York. And then they're sending that information to Google, which is collecting millions and millions of searches for things like how to beat the wind temple and tears of the kingdom and saying, okay, it's wind temple York.

1:06:44Google does not understand that that is an iOS autocomplete. And so it's just taking that data as real and turning that into an autocomplete suggestion for millions of other people to see, not understand at all, and potentially click on as well. It is bonkers. We're like one small step away from there being websites with headings that say, how do you complete the Wind Temple York? Yeah, Glorbo. Yeah. This is the Glorbo situation. There's going to be AI websites looking at Google Trends. I'm going to tell the Polygon people. Like, a huge amount of Polygon traffic right now is here's the kingdom guides.

1:07:20And I'm like, you guys got to start sneaking in some York stuff. Absolutely. It's a lovely place. Really nice Anglican choir. It's perfect. By the way, we have gotten a bunch of emails about iOS autocorrect in general. I will say that now I'm paying attention to it. It does seem worse. Yesterday, I was actually speaking to Dieter. I was texting with Dieter, and I said, send it to me. And it just autocompleted it to Messenger. So it just said, send it to Messenger. Like, it was very confusing. Like, why? But I can't tell if that's, like, I'm noticing it. Like, whatever that bias is called. But we have gotten lots of emails from people saying it's much worse.

1:07:55Just don't correct it for a few weeks and see how your friends notice in the group chat. I definitely got called out the other day. They're like, Alex, your autocorrect's going through it right now. It didn't. It's just, like, nonsense. Well, we'll see. So we're a month away from the next version of iOS. Maybe it'll get better. Maybe it'll get worse. Who knows what'll happen? Keep sending us emails about that one. Yeah, please keep sending us emails about, especially if you have specific weird autocorrect things that are happening. We're trying to figure out ways to investigate this. It's a weird thing to try and actually pin down an answer on.

1:08:28But one thing we need is lots and lots of bizarre autocorrect examples. So if you get a weird one, send us a screenshot and tell us everything. Also, if you are playing games on your Android gaming phone, send us an email. No one's ever done it. The S Pen people are out here just smoking it up. The Andrew Gaming people, as far as I can tell, don't exist. All right, that's it. We have to take a break. This is really fun. Send us more emails. We're going to read more emails on the show. David's already doing it on Wednesday's show all the time, right? It's great. It's the best part of the show. Every time.

1:08:57I love it. If all we do for the rest of the show is respond to reader feedback, we'll be happy. But that's it. Or call the hotline. 866-VERGE-11. Call the hotline. Yeah. Hotline and email us. vergecasttheverge.com. Love it. We'll be back. We'll do another. It'll be a quick lightning round this time. We're going to get through it. We'll be right back.

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1:11:57We're back. It's going to be an actually fast lighting room. We're going to do it under 45 minutes. It's going to be amazing. Kranz, I think Alex has the best one. Go ahead. Oh, yeah. I am absolutely obsessed with this. My brother is in the food industry. So anytime food industry and tech converge, I get really, really excited. Mr. Beast is suing Virtual Dining Concepts because that's the company that kind of arranges Mr. Beast Burger, his Uber Eats takeout delivery hamburger joints. And he's suing him because according to the lawsuit, the burgers are, the food is revolting and likely the worst burger the person had ever had.

1:12:41Also - Not just according to the lawsuit, according to people who ordered those burgers. Yeah. And also inedible. Like, it's just full of insults and the pictures are absolutely revolting. You'll be totally disgusted. And I just keep thinking about this and wondering why this all happened. And we understand why it happened. Mr. Beast, it was 2020. Restaurants were in dire straits. Everybody I know was unemployed. Like, my brother just didn't work for six months. And so they were like, okay, how can we help restaurants? Well, let's open a lot of ghost kitchens where we can ship food out via Seamless, via Uber Eats, and you can get your food and the restaurants get to stay open and everybody wins.

1:13:24And so that's what they did. And these ghost kitchens just proliferated. They were everywhere. And Virtual Dining Concepts was like, okay, cool. We can partner with people and make their brands take off there. Virtual Dining Concepts was started by one of the guys who did Planet Hollywood. So he knows his way around branding and churning out horrible food to the masses. Yeah, I was going to say, but does he know his way around good food? And so, of course, when you're thinking, I want to start a really cool business project involving food, I'll go to that guy. And that's what Mr. Beast, James Donaldson, did.

1:13:53He went to this guy. They were quickly everywhere. I know people who were accidentally ordering them because they'd see, like, Mr. Beast Burger, and they'd see these gorgeous pictures of burgers. And then they'd get just slop to their houses. Wait, I just want to call out. The Twitter thread guys, when Mr. Beast Burger launched, had a field day. Oh, yeah. They were like, here's the future of all marketing. Here's why Mr. Beast Burger is poised to take over from McDonald's. One of 945 thread. They've been dead silent since this lawsuit came out. Yeah. Everybody was obsessed with ghost kitchens.

1:14:24Like, this was the new thing. Yeah. Because it's really hard to, like, it's hard for one restaurant to be consistent every night. It's really, really hard for one restaurant, right? It is virtually impossible. impossible. And Wendy's and McDonald's and all of them, the food may sometimes be disgusting. Everybody has their own takes, but it's fairly consistent. Even they struggle with consistency. And Mr. Beast was like, yeah, I'm going to come in with the Planet Hollywood guy, and we're also going to be consistent burgers. His pitch in the beginning, in that COVID time, was really interesting, right?

1:14:59Yeah. It was, all these mom-pops are struggling. I'm going to come in with this marketing muscle. Anyone can sign up. We'll send you the kit. Burgers are easy to make relatively, we'll send you the materials and the stickers and the packaging and your mom and pop can be turbocharged by my marketing muscle. Right. So anyone can make beast burgers was the idea. Yeah. Right. A lot of Jimmy's brand is altruism and there's however much controversy associated with that brand and whatever, but that is like the core of his thing, right? It's like, I'll help a lot of people and I'll get rich along the way.

1:15:30Cool. What's fascinating here is like, it should be relatively easy to make burgers and have them not be raw. And somehow it wasn't right. Like if you just open seamless or Grubhub or whatever, in the average city, you don't pick Mr. Beast burger and you just pick some restaurant and order some cheeseburger. The chances of it being raw are very low. And somehow the chances of the Mr. Beast burger being raw were very high. And that's the whole thing here that I just do not understand. So what was happening was ghost kitchens, because it's not attached to the restaurant's brand, the restaurant— Oh, they don't have to care as much.

1:16:10Yeah, they don't have to care. And if you don't care, quality goes out the window. And so quality— You get your, like, idiot nephew to make the burgers because they're Beast Burgers. It doesn't come back on you. Yeah. You're like, oh, you go over to the Beast Burger, like, kitchen, and you do all of that. We're going to actually go make money and build our brand and just use that to subsidize ourselves. And we've seen that happen, like, a lot of ghost kitchens. This was the way it was. Like, there was one in my old neighborhood, and you'd walk in, and the food's really good. And then you'd, like, go try to order from there on, like, Seamless.

1:16:39And there were six different restaurants with the exact same address because they were just churning out this slop to keep, like, their actual core really delicious business going. We have a great Josh Trezza piece about the Chuck E. Cheese of it all. What was the name? Hold on. The Chuck E. Cheese of it all should be the title of somebody's memoir. I don't know who, but it should. So we have a great Josh Trezza story about chicken wings and ghost kitchens. We'll link to it and how many ghost kitchens make chicken wings and why chicken wings are proliferate. It's because they're actually easy to make and they're cheap.

1:17:10By the way, the chicken wing story, we talked about our background policy before. You know how we don't let press people be on background. They have to use their real names. Chicken wing story is like what pushed me over the edge because like one of the big food delivery companies would only talk to Josh like in secret and they would only discuss the popularity of chicken wings. And we were like, why? Why can't we attribute you saying chicken wings are very popular? That was the one that broke me. They slapped back. They're saying, no, he's been bullying us. He's trying to renegotiate the deal.

1:17:48He's bullying us. He's being mean to us. and Mr. Beast Burger brand will continue on as long as they hold that contract. We'll never stop. Yeah, so. We'll never stop using your name and likeness to sell cheese burgers. Very good. I'll tell you my lawyer brain is this lawsuit inevitably settles. If this lawsuit gets to a jury, the American legal system has completely failed. I say that in the context of the former president of the United States being indicted this week. You know, that'll happen, whatever. If Mr. Beast Burgers gets to a trial, the American legal system has failed. Because this thing should completely settle.

1:18:25It should never get to a trial. Okay. My lightning round. Chris Welch, big scoop this week. Sonos Move 2 hitting in September. A stereo sound. 24-hour battery life. And importantly, USB-C audio in. Hell yeah. Which is super cool. We're beginning to see that in more and more places. Also, because it's a portable speaker with a big battery, USB-C port can charge a phone. Very cool. But you can charge your phone from your gigantic Bluetooth speaker? Yeah, because it's also a gigantic battery. Oh, that's awesome. That's the first time ever that a Sonos speaker being humongous actually feels like a good idea to me.

1:18:57I'm in on this now. It has two tweeters in it, so it's stereo sound. They've re-optimized the controls. It's got automatic true play, all this stuff. But yeah, it's the battery that I think is particularly cool. And of course, it can do Bluetooth audio as well. And the big upgrade here is you can do Bluetooth and Wi-Fi simultaneously, which is pretty cool. Chris Welch, as ever, living in the AC vents at Sonos HQ. It's a good scoop. That's very good. All right, David, take us home. Mine is more a recommendation than anything else. I just want to let everybody know that ESPN is doing its The Ocho thing again.

1:19:33The history of this is that it was a joke they made in the Dodgeball movie in 2004. And then 12 years later, ESPN decided, oh, we'll actually do it. and we'll use this as like a one or two day thing to show all the sports we don't usually show on TV. So it's everything from like spike ball to like musical chairs and all kinds of like insane sports you'd never see on TV. It is the single most fun thing you will ever watch on sports television. And one of the things that they're doing is the Excel World Championships. And I have found myself deep in the world of competitive Excel over the last few months, like getting to know some of the folks.

1:20:08They're doing a huge season this year. They did this on ESPN last summer, and it was like a big viral hit. People got really excited because you see Competitive Excel on TV, and you immediately go, what in the world is going on? So they're having a big season this year. The culmination is going to be this big thing at the eSports Arena in Las Vegas. It's going to be a whole huge thing. But as you're listening to this on Friday morning, it's airing at 7 a.m. So if you're listening to this very early, you might get a chance to see it live. But otherwise, it will be on YouTube. It'll be on ESPN. And competitive Excel is significantly more fun than you think.

1:20:40It's basically like puzzle solving using Excel. And if you're the kind of person who likes to solve puzzles, it's extremely fun. And you've just never seen anybody get so excited about Excel ever in your life. And I love it very much. David, in your piece, you call it the Sheeter Bowl. Is that true? No. God, no, they don't call it that. No. I came up with like 30 or 40 different dumb ideas about what you might call this. But I think Merge Madness is the one that I have come back to as my favorite. That and the V Lookup Cup. Yeah. I was very proud of both of those. These are very good. I was really hoping these were all the actual names.

1:21:18Guys, just take that from David Free. Yeah, you can have it. That is public domain courtesy of David Pierce. Please take that from me. But yeah, the Ocho, I think, is running through the weekend, if I'm not mistaken. And there's all kinds of wild stuff going on. but the ESPN stuff should be up probably as you're hearing this, and it's extremely delightful. Competitive belt sanding. Yeah, dude. This is what I'm saying. It's the same as the tools. Like, imagine anything in the world, and odds are there is somebody who does it for a living and thus has really strong opinions about it, and there are probably people who do it competitively, and that kicks ass.

1:21:57Mullet championships. Oh, my God. This is what's going to save ESPN, by the way. They should just do this the whole time. Mullet championships. all day. The Pillow Fight Championship is on this weekend. Like, come on. I'm there for it. Tetris? That's very good. I can't believe we haven't been running the fake ESPN music the whole time. We should have started and stopped the show. Andrew, can we get a few more minutes of guitar solo, please? Hard no from Andrew. All right. That's it. We've gone way over, as always. Bunch of cool stuff on the site. Speaking of Andrew, he's got a great piece on the original Zenith clicker remote, which was ultrasonic.

1:22:32When you push the button, it hit an aluminum rod, and that's how it controlled the TV. Super cool tech, ancient idea, of course. Go read that. Really good. We've got an explainer on what's going on with the incandescent light bulb ban, which is very, it's like, refuses to die, but it's also dead, whatever. And there's some news about Nintendo's next-gen console on the site. You should go read that, too. And then importantly, we are doing Land of the Giants, Tesla, with former Verge transportation reporter Tamara Warren and Patrick George. They are deep in it. They are getting so much access to all kinds of people who have worked in and around Tesla for years.

1:23:10It is a monster season that show. The Tesla shockwave, that's what it's called. In fact, it's so good. We're going to feed drop it on Wednesday in this feed. You'll get to check it out. So that's really cool. Look forward to that. Other than that, the site looks great. Go listen to it. I promise you, it's the year of the Linux desktop. It's all happening. That's it. That's for Chester.

1:23:33And that's a wrap for VergeCast this week. We'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email at vergecast at theverge.com. The VergeCast is a production of The Verge and the Vox Media Podcast Network. The show is produced by me, Liam James, and our senior audio director, Andrew Marino. Our editorial director is Brooke Minters. That's it. We'll see you next week.

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