Searching for the first great AI app

24:48And then there's this weird middle ground, which I think Mariner is, which, you know, co-pilot is at Microsoft, all these agentic systems, which is what if we just use the internet for you? And that's how we solve the problem of we need something in the middle that works. And David, I think this is where you're getting to like, what a stunning indictment of web design. Because you're like, well, the internet's pretty broken. so it would be better if some unreliable hoosening robot used it for me right the the assumption is that you can't find anything which is a very funny thing for the company that made google search to say but yeah we're at a moment where it is perceived to be easier to ask this thing to go find a contact email address than it is to just go find the contact email address and again like I think a place we are landing that is very funny is that all these companies are slowly discovering that the most useful thing their tools do are really boring and really like back of house accounting firm kind of stuff.

25:49And that turns out to not be very interesting to like a mainstream public that you need to get excited about using your products. so they're stuck in this place of all these companies are actually playing like a thoroughly b2b game and just pretending that they're making like huge strides toward mainstream consumer products that's all fine and good and i think like neil i think you're really like you're right to be hung up on the fact that these things get some things wrong but also like people use them anyway like it like the this thing will write my email for me and it will make two weird mistakes but then I can fix them and send it.

26:27And that's better than having to write the email from scratch. Or not fix them. As we are learning every single day, the answer is not fix them. The answer to some extent is read them out loud on cable news. The answer is Hunter DeButts will save us. But yeah, and like Hunter DeButts will like go down in history as like - I refuse to explain. It's there. You can look at - Yeah. Ironically, if you Google Hunter DeButts, you'll get correct information about what we're talking about. But anyway, I just think we're at a moment now where the question for all of this AI stuff, just to bring it all the way back around, is what is any of this actually useful for?

27:09And I think the truth is the models that we have now are better than we need for a lot of things and vastly like a million miles away from being good enough for what everybody keeps talking about. Right. So now the question is, OK. we're not going to build the perfect thing for a long time, if ever. What can we do with what we have now? And that's where things like efficiency come in, because at some point, like running a business costs money, and you have to be able to do these things. And if you can make them cheaper, more people can use them and find new things to do and like on and on and on.

27:41But the question is like, okay, if you just take the technology we have right now, and you don't pretend it's God, what is it good for? And that is like, that is the question Google is starting to try to answer. It's the question OpenAI is starting to try to answer. that is like the question of 2025 is like what is any of this actually useful for because there are answers they're just not as like they're not god and they're not fire and they're not the industrial revolution so what are they it's like a tour guide and an extremely unreliable personal assistant which to be fair is not nothing it's not nothing and i i can see why they're compelling and i can see why i mean just the demo i mean richard you already brought it up like the google demo of Mariner where you're just like looking at a recipe in Google docs and you just ask it to go build you a shopping cart on a grocery site.

28:29And it just like, does it for you neat, like legitimately neat, very slow, so slow that, uh, the Google PM literally saw Kylie noticing how slow it was and said, that's the elephant in the room that it's ponderously slow. Right. Like they know, they, they know it they're not hiding from it it's a research demo but like i'm i'm stuck at the systems are not themselves capable so they are free riding on other systems that can do the thing the grocery site has to exist and work and it needs to have a database of all the food in the grocery store and then you need to be able to put it in the cart and like it like all that has to work and be profitable and sustainable and then on top of it you're just like and then this robot will cost$20 a month and like do it for you.

29:17And eventually you're just like, what if this undercuts all of that? I keep calling this a DoorDash problem where DoorDash has to exist for a bunch of these services to get you a sandwich. And if you just sort of delete DoorDash's business by cutting them out of the equation and taking you, the customer, away from DoorDash, like how is anyone going to get a sandwich? Like you need this big, traditional, deterministic, logical computer with a database that is reliable doing a bunch of work so your natural language interface can be useful and i don't think anybody has solved the problem of like how do you keep doordash in business including i'm not just being doordash whatever uber right like rabbit's just like we're gonna click around uber's website all of these middle companies these like web 2.0 companies that digitize the interfaces for very physical things like they're pretty they were pretty vultury in their times, right?

30:12Like Uber is the biggest taxi company in the world. Doesn't own a single taxi. Airbnb doesn't own a single hotel. Like that's the joke about those businesses. And now they're under pressure from AI systems that might use their interfaces and never show them to a user. Right. And it's like where this has to go somewhere that is actually useful for people. Well, it's a weird thing because you have all of the AI companies would agree with you, but they see that as a strength and not a weakness, right? What they're saying is, okay, we are going to have an army of service providers who just invisibly do the job on your behalf and you don't have to worry about who they are.

30:48You don't have to go to the DoorDash website every time you want to order McDonald's. You just order McDonald's and we'll get it done for you and DoorDash or whoever will be our provider of choice to do that. They would call that a victory, right? Because I, as a consumer, I shouldn't have to interact with DoorDash to get McDonald's. I should interact with McDonald's. But what they've actually done is a insert another step and be completely commoditize all of these providers in such a way that they will eventually just crash them all in an incredible race to the bottom to be one of these providers.

31:19And so it's like when all the carriers got really nervous about being dumb pipes and so they bought content businesses, it's like there is another turn of that coming where Uber is going to be terrified of being abstracted away by all of these AI companies. And so it's going to do more to try and get you to use Uber. And it's just going to get really weird as a result. Or it's going to just raise the price. Or it's going to raise the price. Or it'll raise the price for the AI systems. So an Uber costs more if you book it through AI than if you book it yourself in the app and look at an ad for Uber Eats.

31:53Yeah, it's just the next generation version of the App Store tax. And I think we're just going to see a bunch of this stuff play out. And every time everyone talks to me about these agents, and Google in particular is in a very privileged position because they run Chrome. And they run search. And like one of their, their deep research preview that they released in the same set of releases where it's like, go research a topic for me. And it comes up with a research plan. And then it goes, searches the web for interesting results and then delivers that research back to you. That's just perplexity, right?

32:23It's just perplexity by another name. And perplexity is in a bunch of trouble because it's not paying any of the sources it's using to scour the web in that way. And it's like, at some point, all of the people who make websites, us included, and I feel like disclosure, the company has some sort of meandering deal with open AI that hasn't really resulted in as far as I could tell. But like, there it is. Like, all of these companies are going to say, well, we make the information. We make the interface to book a taxi or whatever it is. You have to pay us. Because if you just take the customers away from us, we will go away and the bots will be useless.

32:57And I think that just that economic reality will result in some payments, whether or not the lawsuits or whatever results in payments or blocking robots at TXT. But it's come. It's it has to be coming. And I think I think it's going to like follow the same pattern. Everything else follows like Uber will be exclusive to Copilot and DoorDash will be exclusive to Gemini. And like it's that part's going to suck for a long time. Yes. or somebody is going to figure out how to do the hack to make it work whether the companies want it to or not, and then we're going to have an entirely different kind of mess.

33:32And then a new generation of college students will be radicalized by Napster, and then that's how we will be for Vendetta, my replacement. It'll be great. We've got to take a quick break, but talk about this XR thing really quickly. Yeah, okay. So you know Android, how it's Android? Imagine if smart glasses were a thing and if Google just did Android again for those. that's what android xr is and basically uh google has been at this smart glasses thing for like 15 years now maybe uh has tried a bunch of things uh do you remember daydream daydream is one i had forgotten about that i just randomly rediscovered today daydream existed i wrote a whole thing about it for wired a million years ago i forgot about that but anyway so uh google announced like a developer preview of android xr it's basically what you think it's a it's immersive versions of some Google apps and some Gemini stuff, basically.

34:22The underpinning of all of this is the assistant Gemini stuff that you might want to wear on your face. That's sort of the big theory. They have a bunch of hardware partners. I've been hearing from every company that wants to sell you glasses over the last two weeks being like, we're doing a thing with Google that we can't quite tell you about yet. That's Android XR. So starting next year, I think we're going to start to see real development and hardware products. It sounds like Samsung is going to be the first out of the gate with like a real honest to God Android pair of glasses. But it seems very clear that like Apple is trying to be the Apple of your face with the Vision Pro.

35:00And Google is very happy being the Android of your face. I think the question of whether Google is going to make hardware is really interesting. Google's made a bunch of prototypes and gave us some indication this week that it is interested in them being more than prototypes. And if you want to do all this Gemini stuff and Project Astra, like you got to have glasses. Like if this AI future that everybody is imagining and trying to sell you on is going to come true, it's going to be glasses. It just is. I'm 100 % convinced. I'm just saying it's a decade from now. There's an eighth grader. One of our children will be in eighth grade at some point.

35:35They're on their eighth grade trip to D.C. They're wearing their glasses. They look at the Capitol and say, what happened here? What are some notable events in American history? Does it say an insurrection or does it say it was a day of love? and are the answers on two different eighth graders different and these companies are racing towards a future where they are going to have to answer that question regardless of whether they make the hardware or not aren't you just describing the internet though like everything already works like that right but like and like is it ruining society sure but like i don't know that smart glasses are a new problem here but you're not a literally experiencing maybe it maybe like that is more nihilistic than i want it like i was gonna say not everyone's experiencing a bespoke reality and then i just thought of a generation of americans who super are so maybe but i'm just you can build want to build this stuff and then underneath it is this very deep question of who gets to augment reality and do we all experience the same one and they're just not ready for it fully not ready for it especially when the answer is different if you have android on a lenovo pair of glasses versus android samsung pair of glasses and the samsung pair of glasses is like there's a second reality here that we made it sits right next to google's reality and it has Bixby in it.

36:44It's slightly brighter. We gotta take a break. We'll be right back. Yeah, I'm just gonna, I need to walk around the house a little bit. We'll be right back. Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out. And we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place. And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving.

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40:21All right, we're back. My feeling is that Bixby would say it's a day of love. no no further commentary we should really do like a political alignment matrix of all of the different virtual assistants oh my god i feel like if i sat down and thought about it for five minutes i would end up with really strong opinions who did tay vote for yep so my question is do you want to go viral answer to that do you want to go viral on x in this specific way you're like we're gonna milk the last drop of traffic from this one dead platform uh and it's up to political alignment chart of different AIs. No, thank you.

40:59All right. There's more AI news. It's just a lot of things got released this week. OpenAI released Sora. iOS 18.2 is out with chat, GBD integration, visual intelligence. What do you want to start with? Let's do iOS 18.2 first. Okay. I mean, it's very familiar. I think we had a moment this morning where we're like, how much should we cover this? Because people have seen it. They've used it. It's been in beta. The release candidate was last week, but it's out now. If you have an iPhone 16 or up, or even iPhone 15 pro, you get visual intelligence. You get Genmoji. ChatGPT integration is there. Joanna Stern wrote a very funny column where she's like, you invoke ChatGPT by saying like secret words.

41:39Like if you ask Siri one way, you get a regular Siri answer. But if you ask Siri, like write me a list at ChatGPT is the list for you, which is very funny. I've been like, I've been using this stuff, David, I think you've been using the stuff. What do you think? Richard famously uses Windows Phone, so he's God only knows. It's the only way to live. I will say two things. I think one, the single coolest thing about iOS 18.2 is the ability to change default apps for various things. Like when you tap on a phone number, you can change which app it goes to. Everyone should go examine all of those defaults because if you get that kind of thing right, it makes your phone a lot better.

42:16This is the sort of thing Android has been better at than iOS for forever. and thank you to occasionally confused EU regulators for making this happen. The ChatGPT thing I think is interesting. What I've found is that when I ask compound questions, it punts to ChatGPT more often than not, right? Like if my question kind of has two parts or has a thing and then a modifier, like one I just did the other day, it was like if I ask for a chocolate chip cookie recipe, Siri will just kind of pull it. And I'm going to not say that word again because it's just activated three devices. But if I ask for a chocolate chip cookie recipe that maybe will taste like I haven't tried before, then it punts to ChatGPT.

43:03And then it's a relatively consistent experience. Actually, one thing that I've liked is that when it goes to ChatGPT, the thing that it brings down still looks like the normal Siri response. So I think in that, like my mental construct of what's going on is very confused in a way that I don't like. But the actual user experience of it, I think, is actually pretty good. Yeah. I mean, in terms of like, this is a good way to get better answers from a Siri. And so you just get I think that works to some extent. Yeah. Like, do I have feelings about the idea that my stuff is going to chat GPT over and over and over again?

43:42sure but if you don't that friction should go away and there isn't actually as much friction as I expected so I think that's probably on balance a good thing yeah I mean again I've had the action button on my phone mapped to the chat to BT voice assistant forever this is just like a slightly faster version of that for me with like more annoying animation like I actually think the new Siri animation is so overwrought I agree I missed the little swirling ball the thing where it like it now takes over my whole phone screen i don't like it yeah it's very much like jazz hands it's like get ready for an experience it's like i don't need this to happen no it's but it just means that it's going to take a little bit longer to load right and then you talk and then it does the thing where it like fills out the words for you there's there's some amount of like obfuscating how slow it was with the swirly ball yes made it appear fast you know like how progress bars are they're they're mostly designed to go really fast for the first part and then they can be slow at the end but you've already perceived it being fast that's very much what the old siri was doing and now it's just like everything's glowing and you can see the world's and it's like i don't need i don't need to see the mouse running the wheel guys just like let me know there's an answer i think that's right i had actually not really ever thought about siri as a as a spinning like mac style beach ball of loading things until it switched to this and then it is like it is so desperate to make it seem like something is happening at all times because it's slow so it's just like look at these beautiful pink and blue swirlies until it finishes which it will do eventually it's like all right this is actually like pretty good design on top of a pretty bad system yeah i will say i mean it's it is again the natural language capabilities that is what ai is best at so it i it understands me a lot better and then chat gpd is familiar i don't know if it's hallucinating i mean but like it's it's all happening and there's some guardrails in there it's to me the ones that i i don't think those are the apple intelligence's here features that now siri can talk to chat gpd i think that is table stakes and it's kind of weird that it wasn't there from the jump the ones that i think are big are image playground genmoji and visual intelligence right where the phone gets multimodal and it can now talk in pictures like both in and out but i like genmoji is just purely silly to me image playground is like 50 steps behind although that's probably the safest way for it to be yeah that seems to be deliberate and visual intelligence is you know it's just the same thing we're talking about we're like look at is this a flower and it's like it sure is and like the next turn isn't quite there yet but like maybe i'm just being a hater well a you're definitely just being a hater that's certainly i'm in a real salty moods i don't know you are i can tell i'm enjoying this very much uh you're like what if everything was awful and woke and i hated it look i know where the views are i don't know what like the genmoji thing is one that i'm i'm really torn on because I feel like we've been covering Apple's weird ideas about emoji for like the whole life of The Verge.

46:57And I don't think I have ever once earnestly sent or received one of Apple's weird emoji other than like to goof on another tech reporter. If I just made a Genmoji and sent it to my wife, she would like call the police. Like it would be so weird as a thing to just do. Wait, has your kid discovered that you can hold on a face in a photo and make a sticker of a face? No, thank God. Because I have a camera roll full of those or wherever they are in the file system. Like just billions of stickers, like left and right. And those are very funny to send around because they're horrifying. But that's very much like we use the walkie-talkie feature on Apple Watches and we're the only people who use it with the walkie-talkie feature on Apple Watches.

47:42And I just feel like all of this stuff, image playground, Genmoji, like, and this is true of lots of other people's products too, is like, I'm convinced that all of the AI image generation stuff is more of a meme than a product at this point. And I just don't, I don't know that there are actual reasons that they exist other than somebody made them. Like, I don't know. Richard, am I crazy? Are you, are you just like sending Genmojis to all your pals every day? I am not. I unfortunately do not have a device ready to run Apple intelligence in my home. I probably never will because I do not want to send Genmoji.

48:20I don't want to do this. With Gemini 2.0, you're going to be able to generate some weird stuff too. So get ready. When you open up Instagram, I just want to like search for an account and oh, now I'm in the AI window. Thanks. I really do hate that. But it's bizarre because I've never wanted to generate an emoji. Yeah. I don't know if all of the emoji that are in the phone exist and cover every feeling I've ever had, but whatever feelings I have that aren't covered by those emoji, I'm not in touch with yet. I just haven't considered it. It's not something that's just dying to get out of me. I must find the zebra of many colors with anatomical incorrectness that represents how I'm feeling right now.

49:06I haven't gotten there yet. I think it's very important for everyone listening to this right now who has access to Apple intelligence to pull over in their cars, send in that prompt, and then send us whatever it generates. Like, I issue a lot of instructions on this show. Ask your phone to make a zebra of many colors that's anatomically incorrect that expresses a feeling that you don't know you're having or whatever it is that Richard just said, and just let us know what it gives you. I'm dying to know. I feel good about that. Look, I think ultimately Apple wants it to seem like the phone is very capable and AI makes, whether or not it actually is capable, AI makes it seem like the phone can do more stuff than it could do yesterday, right?

49:50Now you can press camera control on your iPhone 16 and look at something and it'll be like, here's a flower. It can write for you in a way that I think those ads are doing it a massive disservice to because it just seems like everyone's a jerk at work. Yeah. Every one of those ads is like, hey, dumbass. What do you seem like not such a dumbass? They have a real problem with those ads because they have to find something that is so important that you have to send the message, but also not so important that you need to write it yourself. And what is that? And also that you could conceivably be hired for even though you're dumb as a rock.

50:23The one where the guy rolls his chair out of the meeting to summarize whatever rolls back in the meeting. I get it. It's very funny. It is, is it is attention getting, which is the purpose of advertising, but it's like, oh, that sucks. Like I would get out of this meeting. Like I don't need to waste my time. If you haven't done the reading, you can tell what our meetings are like. I, I just say like, they've made the phone slightly more capable, but this big Apple intelligence is here a moment. I don't know. It, it's not the same as the chat CPT moment that everyone talks about. But like, your mind is not expanded because the messages notifications are 8 % better than they were in iOS 18.1.

51:02If there's going to be that thing anytime soon, it's going to be agents. And even Apple agrees with that, right? Like you talk about the intense stuff that they're starting to build into iOS that's going to get Siri more access to apps so it can actually go and like get information and do things inside of those apps. Like that's what everyone is trying to build. and if somebody gets it right in a way that is useful and doesn't cause a culture war patel that's going to be the next thing because those will be the moments where people are like oh i i i now understand a thing i can ask this to do that is useful and new the culture where i just want to point out is in ar it's in visual intelligence i see okay app intents is money right because apple is counting on a bunch of app developers to do what they say which they usually do because their customers are on the iPhone and they're in the app store.

51:53And to say, you have to do app intense, just like they said to a bunch of app developers, you have to do in-app purchases so we can take our 30 % cut. That's how you get a Siri that can actually use the apps that you have to build the features in. A bunch of developers are going to say no. I don't know why DoorDash would say yes to that. The answer has to be money. And like, no one has figured out that money yet. And I do just keep picking on DoorDash if anyone from DoorDash wants to come on and telling me that they're going to happily let everyone disintermediate their service. Like, that's great.

52:21But I just look at that part, put any company in that mix. Well, look at Netflix. Yeah. You don't have to participate if you have your own audience. And what they've done with the Apple TV and Vision Pro. If you're big enough, you can just say no. Yeah. So I just see that coming, but everyone wants to build these agents and the systems they want those agents to use do not have to play ball. And we just haven't sorted that out. All right. So that's 18.2. People get it. Let us know what think send us your multicolor emotional zebra please uh let's talk about sora sora is fascinating to me uh and that it doesn't appear to be great but it's super good enough to be like ultra interesting yeah that's about my read of it i mean i think the sora is so bizarre because it is another one on the list of things that open ai is like this is too good we should barely even be allowed to launch this.

53:13We're desperately afraid of all the things that this will visit upon the world if we release it. And then they're just like, here, it's a person doing gymnastics whose body explodes in a thousand directions every time they do a flip. And it's like, this is another one where I'm like, does this exist for any reason other than so that people will post about it on the internet? I sincerely don't know. Also, it's not exactly available. They very quickly ran out of capacity and stopped accepting signups. Yeah, wait, can you explain to me what happened here? I was away from the internet for several hours and it went from Sora is available to Sora is not available while I was gone.

53:49What happened? Yeah, that's pretty much what happened. It was like a shoe release. Like, oh, it's out. Now it's not. And then Sam Altman was like, ah, you know, we just underestimated the capacity and we'll be opening it up at some point. So how much capacity do they actually have? How much capacity can they support to run this thing? We don't know. You do have to pay to use it. you have to have either the$20 or$200 plan. If you have the$200 per month ChatGPT Pro plan and you got access, then you can make 1080p videos that are up to 20 seconds long. So, I mean, pretty good deal. I think like 20 seconds of 1080p video for just$200 a month.

54:23Wait,$200 a month? Everyone doesn't have two accounts. $200 a month on the ChatGPT Pro plan. I mean, you can use on the ChatGPT. That's the one they just announced, yeah. Yeah, you can use the ChatGPT Plus plan, but like that's a 720p five seconds. I mean, who's going to do that? like that's nothing you can't destabilize one country it with five seconds of 720p video uh i mean look i i watched uh marquez brownlee's video about sora the most fascinating piece about it is when he asked it to make a tech review video and then it had his plant in it yep because it has clearly trained on his videos without any permission what are we doing guys like uh that i I can't tell if Google's going to file that lawsuit or the YouTubers will file that lawsuit, but that lawsuit's coming just from that alone.

55:08I mean, yeah, there, there is so much obvious, clear, clean evidence that a lot of open AI is just built on YouTube. It's pretty horrifying. Also, Richard, I would point out, you forgot one key difference between the$20 and the$200 chat GPT subscription, which is that if you pay more, you can download the videos without any watermarks. Oh, good. so that's definitely destabilize the country if you pay more than that's that's worth two hundred dollars uh marquez also said something really interesting in his video that i have just been ruminating about ever since he said i had it make a bunch of cctv footage because it's so bad that people would assume it's real like he intentionally generated footage that was already low quality of like cars driving down the street but in like black and white security camera footage and that's like super interesting right because they are 20 second clips with no sound and people experience a lot of grainy low quality clips with no sound that they take to be reality in a lot of contexts particularly hey we found some security frame footage or we found some ring footage or whatever it is so you can pay to get rid of the visible watermark you pay to or some other you just crop it whatever um are they doing c2pa the like the fancy embedded one yes open ai says that videos generated with Sora will have both visible watermarks, if you have the cheap version, and C2PA metadata to indicate that they're made with AI.

56:36We hope that that works and saves civilization. I will say we've written a lot about C2PA, the content authenticity initiative. Jess Weatherbet has done incredible work just trying to understand what it is and how it will play out and whether it will actually mean anything to anyone. And every time we write about it, we get a bunch of angry notes from readers who have been deep in it, who are like, this is a total fraud. Like this will never work the way you want it to for infinity reasons. Um, but it's the thing that we have. And that's why I keep writing about it. Cause there's nothing else.

57:07There's, there's no other choice. Um, there isn't like market competition to this metadata standard. Like there's this one, uh, and Google has chosen to use it. And it sounds like open eyes using it. Adobe is using it. The platforms have to start using it, right? The YouTubes and the Facebooks and the TikToks have to agree to display this metadata and they are not uniformly agreeing to it. And Apple hasn't chosen to use it on the creation side. So we're just - Meanwhile, all those platforms are furiously building AI tools of their own and have exactly no incentive to point out when things are made with AI.

57:42Like I just, who benefits from doing that other than regular people? And thus, why would they do it? Yeah, we're just headed towards, I think where we're going to end up with is a series of more closed platforms that basically guarantee you stuff from like real people and then open platforms where it's a free for all. And maybe that's going to be good. Like, honestly, maybe it's good to be like, if I open this app, I know it's a bunch of like Hollywood movie directors who have actually made the thing. And if I open this app, who knows what random AI generated slop I will get. And like, maybe that's fine.

58:20maybe that's the thing that breaks apart the internet in that way or like causes that fragmentation i just i don't know but it's we're just at a point now where all of the channels we're used to are gonna get completely infused with ai i think the only problem with that outcome is i think the audience split between those two uh different kinds of platforms would not be what you hope it would be oh i think yeah one will be expensive yeah one will have a small audience and cost money like that that seems correct but even now in tiktok i see videos and it's just like silly stuff it's like here's a big wave crashing over a building and it's like pretty obviously real and then all the comments are like this is ai oh yeah and we've just destabilized that entire information economy yeah lebron was never dunked on that was ai uh a little more there's more ai stuff um uh tried to be launched canvas view what's going on there canvas is basically the the slightly more sort of interactive thing that you can do where like if you have it write something for you it can display the thing that it's making next to the conversation you're having about it and you can sort of edit the thing in real time with the bot uh this is the thing that claude has been doing anthropics bot for a while uh and i think it's actually very clever right like if if you allow for the possibility that maybe generating several paragraphs of text is the best thing a chatbot can do.

59:47This is actually a pretty good version of that interaction where like you can have it do a thing and it generates it in the right column. And then you can, you can go back and forth with the bot tuning it and changing it and you can make changes to it. And it becomes this sort of interactive thing rather than just blocks of messages, which is what we've had before. This is like the big trend here with all these chatbots is everyone has run up against how much you can do inside of a back and forth messaging system. so they're all trying to tack on little bits of ui and little bits of features that don't feel like that but still work inside that kind of basic construct so i think in in that case like canvas is is a good idea whether you're you know writing stuff or writing code or whatever uh it's been it's been out it's been tested for a while i i haven't heard a ton about it but the people i've heard from seem to like it so it seems good this thing you're saying about ui across all these products is super interesting to me.

1:00:40Like chat GPT was the moment, right? Everyone talks about it. Like my eyes were opened. I could see the world in color. And then like two years later, we're like, actually that interface isn't, but we have to build all these other kinds of products, uh, to make this useful. And the arms race of like, what will the chat bots themselves look like? Uh, fundamentally, I think they're going to get subsumed into operating systems the way that Apple is subsuming them into Siri and then that there'll be more specialized for other tasks. That's my guess. But it's interesting to see them rev it. I think that's probably right.

1:01:13I mean, and I think like the way that I've come to frame the way that I'm thinking about AI for next year is the last two years have been like running towards the point of diminishing returns for the actual underlying technology. And we're there, right? This stuff will keep getting better. there might be some incredible physics miracle that changes how all of this stuff works. But on the path that we're on, this stuff is going to keep getting better, but much slower than it has before. And so now the question is, is any of this useful for anything? And we have not had to ask that question because we've been on basically a two-year run for all these companies of novelty.

1:01:54and they've made it a really long way just by finding slightly new seeming things to do. And just the fact that I could take a picture and say, is this a flower? And it would say, yes, it's a flower. It was like novel and cool and exciting. And we are at the end of that moment. And I think you're starting to see it, like the disillusionment with what all these things are attempting to do and whether they're actually good is coming and it's here. And so the question now is like, let's assume the technology is not going to get several orders of magnitude better next year. What else is there to do with the technology that we have?

1:02:28Is the question. Okay, so here's my answer. It's the last one in this section. The most useful thing I've seen with AI yet. Reddit built Reddit Answers, which lets you just search Reddit without having to go through Google and it has AI in it. So we'll summarize a bunch of Reddit threads. So when you search for whatever, it'll show you a bunch of Reddit answers, but summarize them with AI. That might be the best thing yet? This might be the best AI feature of all time. i haven't used it uh j peters used a little bit and had i would say sort of mixed experiences with it but uh the idea of being able to kind of pull all of reddit with a question that you have sounds amazing and it doesn't work quite as well even in google search which made this very expensive deal with reddit to get the data because it just it just isn't compiling them the same way But like, if I could just quickly be like, okay, what, what baby gear does everybody on Reddit think you should buy?

1:03:26Like that, that information exists inside of Reddit. And if it can go and actually like compile all of that stuff in a way that works and makes sense, kick ass, dude, I will use that all the time. Okay. Now that I've said that, I do agree. This is very good. There, of course, the supplied examples are what does Reddit think happened on January 6th? the the the one um uh jay put in was tips for flying with a baby for the first time pretty good like a perfect reddit query right like and and honestly i what i want out of that experience is like give me 5 000 stories about this right and so it summarized everyone's stories and the answers were consider car seats fly in first class some parents find the extra space in first class helpful.

1:04:15Solid. Cool. I personally find my private shop very helpful with our baby. Feed them during takeoff or landing. Classic advice, by the way. And then bring plenty of snacks and drinks to keep your baby occupied. And it's like, well, it's just stuff. Okay, wait, this is very funny. I might just immediately take back everything I just said. Because if you go down to the next screenshot, which is the Google searches, the stuff in the previews from the Google searches is dramatically better. Like, let me just read you some of this stuff. It says, change diaper before getting on the plane. Don't board first.

1:04:44Good tips. Being strapped into the car seat is the safest way for baby to fly. Good tip. Baby will need to be in a car seat. Baby will also need to be held by you the entire flight. That seems confusing. You're holding the car seat? Holding the car seat. take some sanitizing wipes to clean the areas and plan your baby will be touching have a light pad you can use for changing a plane all of that is more useful than this stuff that by the way can i say none of that is the most useful tip that we found with max which is just bring five packs of differently colored post-it notes and let her go crazy oh that's good mine was just snacks we bought i would say 40 different snacks it's not a parenting podcast i'm just saying uh it's just funny right because if you take the world's body of information and read it which is a lot of personal experiences, which are kind of useful for this kind of thing where there's not an answer, and then you try to shove it into the form of this is the right answer, you end up with put baby in chair.

1:05:40But this is the problem that we've run into with Apple intelligence, like notification summaries. Notifications were already summarized. The people who wrote the post already wrote them to be read by someone who wasn't really paying attention and didn't have a lot of time. And they laid it out in a way. They were upvoted because they were written well, and they got you the information they needed. You didn't need to summarize them and extract further value out of one particular line. You needed the whole thing. A hundred percent. We did it the wrong way. I mean, this is the ongoing... It's not quite context collapse, but it is just the pure lowest common denominatorism of AI, which is that if you take everything and you try to shove it into two sentences, you're going to get two incredibly uninteresting.

1:06:26sentences. And I think what we've seen from some others, like I think notebook LM from Google does a pretty good job of this, of basically it goes and finds stuff and then just hands you a bunch of sources, right? Like what I want from this Reddit thing is not pat answers in paragraphs. I want a bunch of links to like, here are, here are the 10, like you said, Neal, here are the 10 most loved and contentious and funny responses that we've ever gotten to this question that everybody replied to, oh my God, I tried this and it worked. That's how you do this right. Not by saying here is the rough summary of 12 ,000 Reddit posts.

1:07:03And that's what too many of these services are trying to do. Yeah. That said, I do think Reddit is, it's where I see the most opportunity because Reddit is vast, right? And like you can burn a lot of time hearing every version of everything on Reddit and having a tool that helps you like get through that better is kind of interesting. I'm just, it, yeah, it's like, that's one example. I'm sure there are other ones, but the glory of Reddit is that it's a bunch of people telling you what they experienced. It's very rarely that there's a right answer, right? It's just like, I'm going to synthesize all this information from all these people who are telling me about whatever, or just talking about their fandom or whatever it is.

1:07:40And that makes me feel like part of a community. It makes me feel, um, it makes me feel like part of a community. It makes me feel validated that like I might have some experiences too. Not I need to, I just shove her in a car seat. Right. Okay, we got to take a break. We're back with lightning round. Boy, this is an action-packed lightning round. We'll be right back. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is?

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1:10:12at libertymutual.com. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Savings vary. Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts. All right, we're back with the lightning round. Liam, who is the lightning round sponsor? This week's lightning round is presented by Amazon Q, the new generative AI assistant from AWS. Oh, that's so good. Have we started adding the cash register sound effect? I think we only did it on the first one since you asked for the effect, But if you want that to be a regular thing, we could. I feel like we got in a lot of trouble with an episode recently by asking for sound effects that we can deliver.

1:10:49Also, if you'd like to make a Genmoji of Nilay being showered in cash and send it to me, I'm good with that. Right next to our emotional zebra. All right, lightning round. David, you wrote about this this week. YouTube is still growing fast on TVs and living. What's going on here? Yeah, so I would say statistically, if you are absorbing this podcast right now, I don't even know what word to use anymore. If you are experiencing this podcast, there is an increasingly large chance you're watching us on your television in your living room. If you are, hello. OLEDs only. If you're watching this on some janky side-lit LCD.

1:11:24I still love you. You should actually watch it. Watch it like several times, actually. Yeah, watch it on all of your different TVs just to check the resolution differences, I would say. But no, basically YouTube put out a bunch of stats this week about how fast its living room stuff is growing. 400 million hours a month of podcast viewing is happening on tvs sports stuff is way up they launched this new feature that i think is kind of cool it's called watch with uh and essentially what they discovered is that a lot of people are watching a sporting event with live commentary from somebody streaming and talking about it and they're now smushing those things together so creators are going to be able to actually like do their own commentary over top of something that they're watching and they're starting with sports but also made it pretty clear that that's going to come to other things so like kurt willms the guy i was talking to who runs product for youtube's living room stuff specifically mentioned like what about an apple keynote where there are all these creators who want to talk about it and comment on it uh that's just a thing we can offer that you can get all these different commentary streams uh i think that's very cool i'm sure apple will have some some very interesting thoughts about that yeah what could possibly go wrong who's gonna be mad about new commentary on every movie that exists in the world but uh more broadly like Like YouTube is now huge on TVs and has undergone this shift, I think really in the last year.

1:12:43Like I follow this company pretty closely. And they used to talk about the TVs as just kind of another place people watched YouTube. And now they're like really thinking about it as like a primary platform for YouTube. And they're building features for the TV kind of for the first time. Like they have this shows thing where you can put up a bunch of videos in seasons and episodes that makes it feel more like a streaming service. they're doing the watch with stuff they're doing a lot of work to sync your phone with your tv like youtube has always kind of wanted to be netflix in a certain way and i think we're starting to see it push to be a little more premium a little higher end a little more tv centric they're convinced they can do this without killing youtube as a product elsewhere but that that tension feels very real to me and i think it's really fascinating yeah um i will can i say one thing on youtube very quickly we've like talked about enough about our business in the past couple weeks i don't want to overdo it um uh but i have a story on the website this week uh a lot of people complain that our youtube videos on our website don't let you click the title to go to youtube and everyone thinks that's our fault because it makes sense that the publisher would want you to keep you on a website that it just it makes sense to people and because forever every youtube video on the internet you've been able to you you hover over it you click the title and it takes you to...

1:14:03And in particular on a phone, you want to open the YouTube app. There's all this stuff you want to do. I hope people know The Verge is like very pro links. We have links everywhere, like links on the homepage all the time. That's not our fault. It is a YouTube decision to disable those links. And if we want to re-enable them, we have to make less money on our YouTube videos. You can read the whole story. I was just very annoyed that I spent months being like, can you turn on these links back on? And the answer at the end of the day was a hard no, unless we choose to either not use YouTube at all or make less money.

1:14:32and I'm not really part of the business side maybe the business side make a different decision but I was like that sucks I'm just going to tell everyone about this and all the YouTube people just made a very sad face at me if the internet goes back to every publisher having their own like awful bespoke video player again I'm going to be so angry like feel however you want about YouTube it's a good video player and the internet was filled with bad video players for so long by the way the links worked and we made more money since 2016 it was all fine and then in the start of this year they changed it to quote remove their branding and they think the link to youtube counts as branding that's dumb it's dumb let me tell you how much of a brad i've been for the past two and a half months and the answer is a hard no and i was like i'm still around can vimeo fix this sure all right here's a really weird one i'm obsessed with this one.

1:15:22Uh, Instagram is going to let creators test reels on people that don't follow them. So like, uh, Adam Asari made this really should go watch it. It's very interesting as a, as a sociological document of how Adam thinks Instagram creators think about Instagram. Like watch this video through that lens. He's like, I know a lot of you are stressed when you upload a reel that it won't perform. So now we're going to let you upload a reel. We won't show it to anyone who follows you will show it to people who don't follow you. So you can see how it'll do before you publish it to everyone. And it's like, that's not how, that's not how you should feel about your creative work.

1:16:04Right? Like I'm going to focus group my video before I show it to the people who follow me is a weird thing. It is correct. I think if you're making like advertising, you run the pressure washing business, like is my pressure washing business going to do better? Cause I made it, maybe that makes sense. But that's what I'm saying. Adam thinks everyone is making commercial videos and they're trying to optimize them for reach as opposed to making stuff on Instagram. Richard, what do you make of this? This makes perfect sense to me. I think it explains, like you said, it explains a lot about the way that Adam Osseri and Instagram kind of see the world, especially what we've seen with threads, for example.

1:16:40the way that you could have a post that you would put up and it would go viral with strangers, but not be seen by the people who follow you. And in particular on threads, go viral with strangers who don't like what you said. It was very, very, very good at identifying people who do not like what you said and making sure that they see your post. But this is kind of just the way that they see it. Okay. So you made something you would love to be seen by whoever, random people, not your community, because you would be, you'd be deeming them in your channel if you wanted that. You know, they're saying you don't want to blow it with the people who follow you.

1:17:18So we'll like focus group it with people who don't. And then you can decide if that data makes you confident to show the people that follow you. And like, maybe I think that's interesting. I'm like, that is legitimately one of the most novel features a social network has released in forever. Super interesting. I think the idea that you kind of can't trust the people who follow you to judge whether or not your content is good is just a really weird way to think about things. And that might permanently downrank you in the algorithm. Like, that's what I mean. Like the, when I say, watch this video from the perspective of how does Adam think about creators thinking about Instagram, it's just purely commercial.

1:17:56It's like, what you want as a creator is to do great in our algorithm. So here's some tools that will help you do great in the algorithm and it's like actually what i want as a creator is to make art like those are different things like wildly different things this is going to sound more cynical than i mean it but i would i would take pretty strong uh bets on that more people are interested in making money than making art oh yeah but that's what i think those just where we are i think creator platforms are commercialized in that specific way people want to win them and here's a feature and you know he even says in that video, we made this with creators.

1:18:32Like we've gotten a lot of feedback that we've been working with creators, but there's just something very commercial about everything that's happening there that is very far away from, this was a photo sharing website for like me to talk to my friends. Yeah. Go watch the video. There's something really specifically Instagrammy about this that I find really fascinating. Like Richard, like you were saying, what this says to me is that you are always on a knife's edge of losing everything on Instagram in the way that like on TikTok, everything you make is like a new pull at the slot machine, right?

1:19:00Like Instagram cares so much more about who follows you and who you follow than TikTok does. TikTok is just happy to shove stuff into the algorithm and see what works and you'll randomly go viral. And sometimes you won't. Instagram lets you build something that is like much more sort of understandable by you as the creator. But also if you make two videos in a row that your audience doesn't like and respond, doesn't respond to your toast. And this is like every creator's desperate fear is if you miss once, it can, it can kill the whole thing for you. And what this is, is Adam Mosseri basically saying, yeah, that's true.

1:19:33So we're going to give you more tools to make sure you never do that. It's weird. It's weird. Speaking of it can all vanish in instant, TikTok lost its court case challenging the law that would force it to either ban itself or be sold. Lauren Feiner wrote up the decision in that case. Complicated, but the court basically said the Congress made a national security decision. We're not going to override it. Many complicated First Amendment questions. We'll deal with them probably in a decoder episode down the line. But Donald Trump, incoming president of the United States, asked about this by Kristen Welker on NBC News, an hour and a half long interview.

1:20:09I'm just going to read this quote because it's a lot of words from Trump. I use TikTok very successfully in my campaign. I have a man named TikTok Jack. He was very effective, obviously, because I won the youth vote by 30%, which he did not do. But whatever. I just wanted to say TikTok Jack. Anyway, TikTok Jack, email us. I need to know everything about you. And then he said, I use TikTok, so I can't really, you know, I can't totally hate it. It was very effective. But I will say this. If you do that, meaning ban it, something else will come along and take its place. And maybe that's unfair. And what the judge actually said was you can't have Chinese companies.

1:20:40They have the right to ban it if you can prove that Chinese companies own it. That's what the judge actually said. She has to follow up. She said, will you protect TikTok? And he said, I'm going to try and make it so that other companies don't become an even bigger monopoly. And specifically what he means is Facebook. He has often complained that Facebook would just become a bigger monopoly if TikTok is banned. And then during the campaign, he obviously said to a bunch of young people, I will protect TikTok. Biden wants to ban TikTok. I'll protect it. This is, in my mind, a massive walkback. Right?

1:21:08All he's saying is, I don't want Facebook to be a monopoly. Not, I will protect ByteDance owning TikTok in America. And I'm just betting. I think we've done this a million times now, David. Like, who's going to buy TikTok? Because that's the out. the out is he negotiates a deal for Amazon or Walmart or subway to buy tick tock. Uh, and he gets to say he saved it. I made a great deal to save tick tock. Aren't you proud of me? I'm doing what I said I would do. And I'm, I just, you can watch the clip. We have it on the website. It feels very much like that is the door he's opening. I think, I mean, it's, it's, it's the escape hatch, right?

1:21:45It's, it's the closest thing he's going to find to a win win at the end of this. He gets a, he gets an America first win. he gets tiktok to still be here he gets to like poke a knife at mark zuckerberg time's running out though uh ban goes into effect on january 19th tiktok has filed with the supreme court to appeal we'll see what happens notably january 19th is the day before january 20th which is when he takes office so wait nila and i have have been on the record about what we think is going to happen many times richard you have to make a prediction right now what happens on january 19th oh uh Uh, tick tock actually turns into a new app called toktick.

1:22:28It won't be owned in China. It'll be owned in like Malaysia or something like, but you know, by a very mysterious company that just happened to come into a lot of money. Who knows where? Uh, next one, Chris Welch reviewed the Sonos arc ultra. He says the hardware is great, particularly the new transducers from mate. Uh, it's a company that Sonos bought to make smaller transducers and make more bass loves those app is still a little, little something. Richard, what do you think? Uh, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's Sonos and they still have the problem of the app that they messed up and made everyone mad.

1:23:05So, uh, how's that going? Medium. I would say the answer is medium. Um, but I will say that as a soundbar, it seems very cool. Chris was basically like, this is worth upgrading, which upgrading from one expensive soundbar to another expensive soundbar is almost not, no one has that thought. Like I'm a person who likes to buy speakers and I'm never like, I should upgrade a soundbar. And Chris thought it was worth upgrading, which is fascinating. So hopefully, hopefully this is beginning to turn around. This was big news this week. GM shut down the cruise robo taxi service, laid off a bunch of people.

1:23:43the former CEO of Cruise just flat out posted, GM is a stupid company, which is great. But it feels like - I think the word he used was dummies, which I like very much. Dummies is a surprisingly powerful - That's powerful. Mean thing to say to somebody. I don't know. David, there's just like a lot of action in this world. And obviously GM is like up and down. What do you think is going on here? I think it just is starting to seem like all of these car companies got out over their skis on technological revolutions, right? There was the sense that EVs and self-driving were going to happen really fast and that they were going to be immediately mainstream and they were going to become a big business.

1:24:26And everybody got really excited about the idea of robo-taxis because then you have a really interesting, like, diversified business from your own vehicles. Like, you can see how they get there, but we're not there. And unless you're Tesla and people just keep giving you stock price money with which to have weird ideas about where to go from here, you're still fundamentally running a car business, which is not getting higher margin. It's not getting less complex. You still have to make the things that people are buying now. And it just feels like one by one, these car companies are starting to say, OK, we made these big, giant future bets that just aren't coming true as quickly as we thought.

1:25:11And we just have to get out of it. I also think a lot of people who cover this space more closely than I do think there is something weird going on with this one in particular. That the way GM is handling this suggests that something else is going on inside of Cruise. That it basically just pulled the plug all at once, which is a very odd thing to do when you're this kind of company that is this invested in Cruise. But the macro thing actually kind of makes sense to me. It's just everybody made a bet. 10 years ago now that they thought was going to be true in five years. And now it looks like it might be more like 25.

1:25:47I think it's just hard to lose money the way Google has chosen to lose money on Waymo for this whole time. Yeah. Right. I mean, that's just Google's like, we're just going to lose money until this thing can make it through Phoenix. All right. We're going to keep losing money until we can make it through Austin. And it's just like, yeah. GM just doesn't literally doesn't have that money. Yeah. It's just not a thing. Richard, you're the one who put quantum computing on this list. Google reveals quantum computing chip with breakthrough achievements. Tell me why this one made Richard happy. Because most of the other stuff did not.

1:26:16I fully understand quantum computing. I understand everything about it, actually. The quantum computing chip that Google has announced is called - Richard is currently both here and not here? As I have said many times, my coin, RJCC coin, is quantum locked. It is both launched and mint and pre-mint at all times. That's how it works. That's how quantum works. That's what we do here at RJCC coin. and we're going to do it on Willow because it can perform a task in five minutes that would take a supercomputer 10 septillion years to complete, which may be evidence that we live in a simulation or a multiverse, maybe or maybe not.

1:26:51I don't really know what any of these words mean, but it happened. They have a chip. They're doing a thing. And now they're trying to find, basically, now that they've done this thing, they're trying to find something to do with it that you will actually find a use for so they could prove how fast it is because right now all the stuff they can do is theoretical. The answer is breaking crypto. RJCC coin. That's what's going to happen. You're already in. It's quantum. You're already in it. You already have it. I have three very brief things to say about this whole thing. One, everybody should read the research paper that Google did because even Google's own researchers are basically like, this thing we did is cool, but I don't know what it is that we just did here.

1:27:30That's all quantum computing. Yeah. They're like, We did an amazing, unprecedented mathematical calculation that no one cares about and has no bearing on the real world. They say that. It's amazing that we did it. We don't know why we did it or what it actually accomplishes. And then they're like, the main thing that we've solved here in our real breakthrough is that we've made it make fewer errors. yeah uh like like imagine if your computer was just like sometimes when you try to move a file it just explodes but now our computer does that less it still does it it's very good less i'm just saying the the main purpose of quantum computing is going to be to break cryptography in specific ways get ready yeah get ready but then the third thing is that they just very casually are like this might be evidence that we're living in a simulation and that's just like the end of but they don't address that anymore.

1:28:21They just say it. All right, here's the last one, which is pure evidence we live in a simulation. You can now buy a Hyundai on Amazon. It's very weird. It's very weird to go on Amazon and see something listed for a price of$67 ,000, but there's no one-click buy. The button is like, start now, and then you get kicked to a dealer, and I feel like we have to buy a car to test out if the dealer actually plays ball. Wait, that's less exciting. So I was really hoping there was going to be like a Amazon warehouse somewhere that's just full of cars. That's Carvana. Right? There's the vending machine. Yeah, the car vending machine.

1:29:00This is, I think they're just doing some pricing games with Hyundai. Right? Where Hyundai sets a price, Amazon sets a price, and the dealer just delivers a car and everyone gets a cut and is happy. But there are still car dealers involved. And I assure you, at some point they're going to be like, and we've marked this one up. We filled the tires with nitrogen. So now that's an extra$6 ,000. like that's car dealer stuff right uh if anyone wants to buy a car on amazon and tell us how it goes i'm dying to know if you just want to cut me a check for 65 000 so we can buy it we will accept that money as well but i'm kind of dying to do this because i want to see if the dealers play ball this is so bizarre it's weird amazon will give you a 2300 gift card if you buy a car through amazon it's the future man it's like kind of like a tax break but it is the weird thing is uh the car only works on kindles and that but i want i want them to link up and bring a trailer so i can just go on amazon like somebody's xr4 ti is up there and i'm just like yeah buy it now and then it shows up at the house next day and i have to explain that that's what we need they just they bring you the whole thing and then the delivery driver just hands you the keys and walks away my cousin in new jersey has absolutely impulse bought a car and bring a trailer and had like a 1980s mercedes roll up in his driveway and his his wife is like what's going on here like you can absolutely i've been so impulse buy a car and bring a trailer that's a real thing that happens all right we got to get out of here this is a great one richard thanks for being here and i want to call out one story which is maybe my favorite story of uh the month so far kristen radke our creative director and amelia uh howdy krails our photographer went to pantone's launch of the color of the year, which is called Mocha Moose, which is brown.

1:30:44So they went to a party for the color brown. Kristen was horrified because she was accidentally wore brown on that day. But then she got to the party. Everyone else was wearing brown. It's like a perfect Verge story. Everything's great about it. Go read that story. Photos are amazing. That's it. That's Verge Cast. Rock and roll.

1:31:02And that's it for the Verge Cast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. give us a call at 866-VERGE-11. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and Vox Media Podcast Network. Our show is produced by Liam James, Will Poore, and Eric Gomez. And that's it. We'll see you next week.

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